Why shows like Baccano, Samurai Champloo etc. not produced anymore?

[SeijiSensei]

It's not the case that only late-night time slots work for anime. Uchuu Kyoudai is running on Sunday mornings at 7 am. The first two episodes have pretty decent ratings of 3.3% and 3.9% for a show where the main characters are in their late 20's and 30's. This tells me there is a broader adult audience for anime if it's telecast at times adults are available to watch and portrays adult concerns.

I thought the Steins;Gate discussion missed the point. The issue really isn't modifying existing properties to appeal to broader audiences, but how to enhance the breadth of the available offerings to appeal to a wide variety of tastes. Too often the discussions here have a "zero-sum" character that seems a bit inappropriate when applied to an industry that produces well over a hundred titles each year. As Chairman Mao wrote, "let a hundred flowers bloom!"

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

This thread is seriously making me laugh.

Yeah, harem shows with lots of fanservice like To Love-Ru or Rosario + Vampire could have no appeal in America. Males here are totally blase about the idea of hot girls liking them. Only a special few would be interested in something like that.

Supernatural romance with hot guys like Vampire Knight? Nah, that's totally unknown here. Not one of the most popular genres in the country at all.

DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, Soul Eater, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh? Sir, you offend me. I have never heard of such things.

Never mind that the best selling mangas here include Vampire Knight, Black Bird, Ouran High School Host Club, Black Butler, Naruto, Bleach, Skip Beat, Rosario + Vampire, Negima, Yu-Gi-Oh, Highschool of the Dead, Ai Ore, K-On, Pandora Hearts...

Nope, nobody here would care about those. Cartoons for kids? Huh? Hot girls and hot guys? What?

All they want, what they are dying to see, is hard sci fi like Planetes, or to see the Moribito series of novels animated, or more shows like Monster or Master Keaton, or a new Berserk or GitS series. You know, mainstream stuff we can all enjoy.

[/sarcasm]


TLDR: A lot of people in this thread are totally overestimating the "western appeal" of some shows, and totally underestimating how well other shows would fit into well known western genres.

I do find your post funny. Who do you think is buying these series in the first place? Established anime fans like ourselves & maybe young adults/teenagers.

Sorry if some of us think anime has the potential to be expanded beyond that & in fact I think that is important for the fandom. Of course don't get me wrong I don't think anyone is expecting anime to become a mainstream hit in the west, but that doesn't mean it needs to remain insular either.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Sorry if some of us think anime has the potential to be expanded beyond that & in fact I think that is important for the fandom. Of course don't get me wrong I don't think anyone is expecting anime to become a mainstream hit in the west, but that doesn't mean it needs to remain insular either.

Sorry about my earlier comment, guess I was just a bit frustrated with some of the generalizations in this thread. In regards to this comment, I do want to point out that we're talking about Japan here, which is going through an identity crisis. It's not anime exclusive either, I've read numerous articles about the problem with creative talent in Japan, and how stifled it can be under the social pressures of tradition and conformity.

That said though, I'm not Japanese, and many people on this board are not. Nor are all of us the cliche "otaku/nerd/geek" social outcast type. Anime is not mainstream in the west almost entirely because of its own social stigma of what it expects animation to be and the existing prejudices about anime due to misinformation (all anime is porn!).

The truth is there exists plenty of anime that is mainstream. The problem is typically in the marketing. One of the big failures of the US industry and why it failed during the boom was that it tried to market based on half truths or flat out lies. Series were censored to be made "kid friendly", promoted for the wrong demographic, aired at bad times of the day, etc. The format itself is something US audiences are unaccustomed to for the most part. US television is very episodic and designed to last for as many seasons as money/ratings allow. Anime is designed to have a continuing story and typically is designed to begin and end within one season.

I do not think most anime need to change for the market, as there are already many fans who enjoy it for what it is. However anime is not solely the domain of the niche, and often the problem is stigma by association rather than quality of production. Using Grave of the Fireflies as an example, it would be ridiculous to put it in the same light as Pokemon the Movie, and yet they are both anime. And yet the marketing departments at licensing companies will stick them together. Visit most US stores that still have an anime department and that's where you'll find Ghibli and other anime. Not in the drama or other specific genre section, but in its own special area, because that's how the industry treats the market.

Is it animation licensed from Japan? It goes in the anime section, regardless of the demographic. That's the real reason so many great titles remain niche and poorly understood.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

It's not the case that only late-night time slots work for anime. Uchuu Kyoudai is running on Sunday mornings at 7 am. The first two episodes have pretty decent ratings of 3.3% and 3.9% for a show where the main characters are in their late 20's and 30's. This tells me there is a broader adult audience for anime if it's telecast at times adults are available to watch and portrays adult concerns.

I thought the Steins;Gate discussion missed the point. The issue really isn't modifying existing properties to appeal to broader audiences, but how to enhance the breadth of the available offerings to appeal to a wide variety of tastes. Too often the discussions here have a "zero-sum" character that seems a bit inappropriate when applied to an industry that produces well over a hundred titles each year. As Chairman Mao wrote, "let a hundred flowers bloom!"

I agree with SejiSensei that modifying existing properties isn't really the issue.

Though I agree that it would have made it more accessible to the general audience but then the people you showed it to would be only looking for shows like that and have no tolerance for "otaku" in-jokes. So you would be back to square one and be looking for shows which do not have these in-jokes.

I prefer Triple_R's method of telling them what they should expect and ignore before you recommend it to them.

The problem I saw in S;G was that it got divided into two parts which were in complete contrast to one another. If it could have melded those two parts into a whole I think S;G would have been a great gateway anime even with the "otaku" in-jokes.


Enhancing the width of the available offerings would really depend on a consistent response for shows like Uchuu Kyoudai. If the ratings remain decent throughout then we might get a few more shows like it.

Otherwise, as relentlessflame said, we'll(or rather I'll) just have to wait for the next trend in anime and hope its something that suits my tastes.

[Kirarakim]

I don't think anyone was seriously saying Steins Gate should be edited or changed. It was just being used as an example of something that I felt could of had mainstream appeal but doesn't because of a barrier to entry. Though yes it probably side tracked the conversation a bit.

I am not suggesting anyone hack up Steins Gate!

Solace, I want to reply to your post when I have more time but I do agree with a lot of what you say is the overall problem here, certainly the US industry did not help the situation.

[Asf]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

It's not the case that only late-night time slots work for anime. Uchuu Kyoudai is running on Sunday mornings at 7 am. The first two episodes have pretty decent ratings of 3.3% and 3.9% for a show where the main characters are in their late 20's and 30's. This tells me there is a broader adult audience for anime if it's telecast at times adults are available to watch and portrays adult concerns.

Between the time slot, the on-screen theme song lyrics, and the "This week's astronaut photo!" segment, I assumed it was made for kids.
I figure adults are mostly expected to watch this instead: http://www.spacebrothers-movie.com/
Anyone got access to the advertisements that run during the show? We could make some guesses based on those.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Asf

Between the time slot, the on-screen theme song lyrics, and the "This week's astronaut photo!" segment, I assumed it was made for kids.

Let's be more generous and say it was made for family audiences. I doubt many kids can empathize with Mutta's employment problems or the potential for an adult romance that arose in episode two. Though it has some surface similarities to Rocket Girls, which was clearly designed to encourage girls to consider science and engineering careers, Uchuu Kyoudai seems more intended for adults with an interest in space exploration.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Solace

However anime is not solely the domain of the niche, and often the problem is stigma by association rather than quality of production. Using Grave of the Fireflies as an example, it would be ridiculous to put it in the same light as Pokemon the Movie, and yet they are both anime. And yet the marketing departments at licensing companies will stick them together. Visit most US stores that still have an anime department and that's where you'll find Ghibli and other anime. Not in the drama or other specific genre section, but in its own special area, because that's how the industry treats the market.

Not wanting to get back into it, but for what it's worth, this very website is no different. We lump all anime together in our categories of "Upcoming Series", "Current Series", "Older Series", and so on, and what do these various shows necessarily have in common beyond being animated in Japan? Nothing.

This is why I said before: most people are not really fans of "anime" as a medium (i.e. I like it just because it's animated in Japan!), they're fans of certain types/styles of content that happen to be represented in anime. But I guess that's no different than, say, videogames, or whatever else that gets lumped together by medium rather than by genre, audience, or style. But it does also serve as a barrier to adoption, because the products are literally "set apart" from the mainstream fare.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Not wanting to get back into it, but for what it's worth, this very website is no different. We lump all anime together in our categories of "Upcoming Series", "Current Series", "Older Series", and so on, and what do these various shows necessarily have in common beyond being animated in Japan? Nothing.

This is why I said before: most people are not really fans of "anime" as a medium (i.e. I like it just because it's animated in Japan!), they're fans of certain types/styles of content that happen to be represented in anime. But I guess that's no different than, say, videogames, or whatever else that gets lumped together by medium rather than by genre, audience, or style. But it does also serve as a barrier to adoption, because the products are literally "set apart" from the mainstream fare.

Okay I might contradict myself here but I am going to disagree. I think most of us on here are Anime fans.

Now being an anime fan doesn't mean we like every type of series. And yes we are going to favor some series over others and are going to hate certain types of series. But overall I think we do like animation from Japan.

That is why we are on these message boards, that is why we follow the anime season every year, that is why we talk about multiple series, that is why we care about the industry both in the West & Japan.

Also to clarify my other posts I don't think being a niche is inherently bad. I tend to be a fan of niches more so than mainstream things: besides anime I also like classic & foreign film and British dramas. I would consider all of these things their own niches.

And as a fan of anime I think anime is a wonderful little niche too even if I complain about it from time to time. That being said just because something is niche doesn't mean it should remain closed off. It needs to grow and create new fans.

Although I agree with a lot of Solace's points, I am not sure if I agree that the problem is anime is all lumped together. I think that is fine as long as there is promotion that not all anime is for kids or porn. Unfortunately anime companies seem to do little to promote the wide depth of anime that is out there (and if anything I think some trailers even promote the stigmatized ideas of anime).

Yes Ghibli gets mainstream attention and a lot of love but Ghibli isn't the only anime that could be promoted to a more general audience to show them what anime really is. Of course the fact that there is very limited TV exposure doesn't help because as great as streaming is for established fans I can't see new people coming across anime because they found it on a streaming site.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Okay I might contradict myself here but I am going to disagree. I think most of us on here are Anime fans.

Now being an anime fan doesn't mean we like every type of series. And yes we are going to favor some series over others and are going to hate certain types of series. But overall I think we do like animation from Japan.

That is why we are on these message boards, that is why we follow the anime season every year, that is why we talk about multiple series, that is why we care about the industry both in the West & Japan.

Also to clarify my other posts I don't think being a niche is inherently bad. I tend to be a fan of niches more so than mainstream things: besides anime I also like classic & foreign film and British dramas. I would consider all of these things their own niches.

And as a fan of anime I think anime is a wonderful little niche too even if I complain about it from time to time. That being said just because something is niche doesn't mean it should remain closed off. It needs to grow and create new fans.

Although I agree with a lot of Solace's points, I am not sure if I agree that the problem is anime is all lumped together. I think that is fine as long as there is promotion that not all anime is for kids or porn. Unfortunately anime companies seem to do little to promote the wide depth of anime that is out there (and if anything I think some trailers even promote the stigmatized ideas of anime).

Yes Ghibli gets mainstream attention and a lot of love but Ghibli isn't the only anime that could be promoted to a more general audience to show them what anime really is. Of course the fact that there is very limited TV exposure doesn't help because as great as streaming is for established fans I can't see new people coming across anime because they found it on a streaming site.

Eventhough i can't speak for other people, but i agree with Relentlessflame with this one. People are not watching anime just because it's made in japan but rather for the distinct style that an anime has over an American type of cartoon.
There are other type media made with anime/manga like visuals that appeals to most us without being Japanese. Like the SwordGirls online cardgame that originally made in Korea or some American webcomics and printed comics with manga-style art. Maybe some of us even like(d) American cartoons that have some anime like visuals like the powerpuff girls, Teen titans or Totally spies etc.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Okay I might contradict myself here but I am going to disagree. I think most of us on here are Anime fans.

Now being an anime fan doesn't mean we like every type of series. And yes we are going to favor some series over others and are going to hate certain types of series. But overall I think we do like animation from Japan.

That is why we are on these message boards, that is why we follow the anime season every year, that is why we talk about multiple series, that is why we care about the industry both in the West & Japan.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to make a much finer distinction than just "I like some anime therefore I'm a fan of anime". Someone who's only ever seen one single anime show could say "I'm a fan of anime", but what do they really know about anime as an entire medium? In other words, your fandom may actually be much more defined by certain genres, styles, themes, and traits than simply the fact that it was animated in Japan. There are a heck of a lot more anime that I'm not at all interested in than what I am interested in, because I'm really only interested in a certain subset of anime. But at the same time, within those same themes, I am also interested in games, light novels, manga, and whatever else. So it's not the medium that I'm a fan of, but certain types of content. Rather than repeating myself further, I tried to explain this distinction in a bit more detail in this earlier post, so that might help further clarify.

[Reckoner]

I'm not sure trying to get into such a semantic discussion would be useful though. It pretty much disqualifies everybody from being anime fans under that line of logic, and not sure what that would be getting at.

We are all people who like anime titles and congregated in one form in another to celebrate these titles, though we don't necessarily like all anime. There are trends in the industry we like to keep an eye on, are they making anime that I think are good and I like, the sorts of shows that made me an anime fan or continue to make me one? That's basically all people here are commenting on.

Many people here perceive the trends as becoming increasingly insular and hard to breach. It's not that these anime are bad or anything, but there is a definite barrier of entry, which just seems to keep getting larger. The thought that some of these titles could remove some of these barriers, honestly at little to no cost, for more accessibility is not a terrible thought is it? I'm sure the Otaku could enjoy some anime without the maid outfits or beach episodes.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by hyl

Eventhough i can't speak for other people, but i agree with Relentlessflame with this one. People are not watching anime just because it's made in japan but rather for the distinct style that an anime has over an American type of cartoon.
There are other type media made with anime/manga like visuals that appeals to most us without being Japanese. Like the SwordGirls online cardgame that originally made in Korea or some American webcomics and printed comics with manga-style art. Maybe some of us even like(d) American cartoons that have some anime like visuals like the powerpuff girls, Teen titans or Totally spies etc.

I disagree because I don't care about anime visuals. I mean I am not saying I don't care about character designs but that is probably the thing that interests me least about anime. I like the characters and the fact that there are continuous stories with beginnings, middle, and ends. Watching an anime is more akin to reading a novel than watching a TV series.

And also the fact that anime comes from Japan is part of the reason I became a fan just like I like foreign films because they are from a different country.

Of course I am not saying my reasons are everyone's reasons but I do think most of us (I won't speak for everyone either) are fans of anime on here.

Originally Posted by relentlessfame

Someone who's only ever seen one single anime show could say "I'm a fan of anime", but what do they really know about anime as an entire medium? In other words, your fandom may actually be much more defined by certain genres, styles, themes, and traits than simply the fact that it was animated in Japan.

They could say they were an anime fan but if they only saw and only wanted to see 1 series I would question that.

Like I said in my previous post I mentioned a bunch of other things I am into (classic & foreign films and British TV).

Just like with what you are saying with anime I don't like every thing about these things and there are certain aspects I prefer but I am still a fan of those niches.

Also in my opinion manga, light novels, visual novels, etc are all related to anime (that doesn't mean you have to like them all. I mean I don't like visual novels for example but I still consider them related to the anime niche).

So what I am basically saying I don't think you have to like everything (you can even dislike aspects) to say you are an anime fan. Just like I can say I am a classic film fan even though I definitely prefer certain genres over others.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The thought that some of these titles could remove some of these barriers, honestly at little to no cost, for more accessibility is not a terrible thought is it?

It just seems self-centered. Like, "the anime industry sure would be better if contained more of what I like and less of what I don't like." Of course, you're entitled to that opinion, but from a global point of view I think the anime industry would be better if contained more of whatever sells, because then it will have the money to keep on making more anime.

I also question whether you're really a good judge of the "cost" of removing elements that you don't like in the first place. If you ask a fan of the original work if they think it would be okay to remove certain elements you consider unnecessary, they may not agree with your valuation. They may see the purpose in those elements that you cannot. Few consider an element unnecessary if they like it or can see its worth.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm sure the Otaku could enjoy some anime without the maid outfits or beach episodes.

I question what definition you are using for "The Otaku". I don't think they include these elements just to appeal to the existing hardcore fans. They include these elements because they have a broad-based appeal; it's eye-candy to appeal to the general male (particularly teen) audience, not unlike what you would find in many shounen manga. A "mass market-friendly" show within Japan may still contain elements that are quite foreign to the less-initiated within international markets.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Also in my opinion manga, light novels, visual novels, etc are all related to anime (that doesn't mean you have to like them all. I mean I don't like visual novels for example but I still consider them related to the anime niche).

So what I am basically saying I don't think you have to like everything (you can even dislike aspects) to say you are an anime fan.

At a certain point, the label becomes practically useless. It implies an assumed commonality when none may exist, particularly if you start including manga, light novels, and visual novels (all separate media) all under some giant "anime umbrella". It just means that, every time you use the statement "I'm an anime fan", it has to be followed up immediately with "what kind of anime do you like?" So I'm just trying to skip a step and make people think about the specific things they like about the medium. In the loosest sense we may all be "anime fans", but what we want from anime may be completely different. How you feel about anime will be determined by the factors that are important to you.

I personally won't claim to be an anime fan, because my tastes are better-defined by different axes.

(Anyway, I will try to exit again... Weak-willed! )

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

At a certain point, the label becomes practically useless. It implies an assumed commonality when none may exist, particularly if you start including manga, light novels, and visual novels all under some giant "anime umbrella". It just means that, every time you use the statement "I'm an anime fan", it has to be followed up immediately with "what kind of anime do you like?"

Yes of course a commonality exists otherwise we all wouldn't be on these boards.

When I say I am a classic film fan people ask me what are my favorite types of classic films. I don't really see how it is any different from anime.

You and I don't have to like the same series but we are both still anime fans. Heck maybe you only do like anime from a certain genre and that is fine.

Although I will say for myself I like anime from many different genres as long as they have what I consider rich characters and plots. I am sure I am not alone in this.

[synaesthetic]

I don't call myself an "anime fan." I describe the genres of various entertainment I find interesting, and anime will often come up in said discussions. Honestly I avoid qualifying them as anime, since that has a nonsensical double meaning in America. I just refer to it as a television show, like any other.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It just seems self-centered. Like, "the anime industry sure would be better if contained more of what I like and less of what I don't like." Of course, you're entitled to that opinion, but from a global point of view I think the anime industry would be better if contained more of whatever sells, because then it will have the money to keep on making more anime.

Like I commented earlier, I am not a production company. I am not talking about what would sell best, that's irrelevant to me. I'm not trying to advice them how to best manage their finances. If that was what this thread was about, then sure they can pander away all they want and get more and more sales.

What I am saying is a self-centered thought as it should be, because this is a thread about opinions. From my point of view there are certain titles that from my experience I have perceived to be more accessible to general audiences. A lot of the time these titles were also ones I have enjoyed more or found easier to enjoy. I'm not asking for anime to become americannized/westernized or anything, but to not purposely make themselves more insular by catering to very very niche audiences. This is more a comment on anime as an art form, the general trends I perceive in all my bias, rather than a financial advice on how to expand their markets.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I also question whether you're really a good judge of the "cost" of removing elements that you don't like in the first place. If you ask a fan of the original work if they think it would be okay to remove certain elements you consider unnecessary, they may not agree with your valuation. They may see the purpose in those elements that you cannot. Few consider an element unnecessary if they like it or can see its worth.

Indeed, but ask yourself this... Are those fans not people who are already numb to or accepting of such insulating tendencies of anime? There's no way to really know, there's no statistical data we could pull off here and we can only extrapolate from our personal experiences on the matter of course. But as far as I can see, the people who enjoyed such anime around me, online and in real life, are people who were already very grounded in the anime fandom and comfortable with it. I don't see this as a good thing really because it shows me that few titles today can provide the same sort of hook into the anime fandom that originally got me. These are not gateway shows.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I question what definition you are using for "The Otaku". I don't think they include these elements just to appeal to the existing hardcore fans. They include these elements because they have a broad-based appeal; it's eye-candy to appeal to the general male (particularly teen) audience, not unlike what you would find in many shounen manga. A "mass market-friendly" show within Japan may still contain elements that are quite foreign to the less-initiated within international markets.

I only made this point because I doubt that having 1000 anime with "insert weird otaku anime trope here" instead of 1001 is going to really bother the people at large, as an example. Having less titles with elements which I perceive as directly making them more insular, to me and people I know around me, and I'm sure some of the general population in Japan from what I gather, would be harmless.

[Triple_R]

Personally, I think that anybody who's currently engaged in the ongoing macro/meta-level discussion on anime on this thread, regardless of what position s/he's taking, has earned the right to call himself/herself an anime fan. Simply put, you don't engage in lengthy macro/meta-level discussions over an entertainment medium like we've done here unless you're passionate about it, and hence are fans of it.

But fans can and do disagree with each other sometimes. This is true for all fandoms.


In addition to being an anime fan, I'm also a pro hockey fan. One thing that divides a lot of pro hockey fans is our differing views on whether or not fighting belongs in the sport (as in actual boxing-style fisticuffs between two opposing players during a hockey game, so commonplace that many teams have a specific player who's chief role it is to be "an enforcer" - i.e. a fighter). I've participated in discussions over 'fighting in hockey' that actually aren't all that much different than the discussions I've participated in over 'fanservice in anime'.

Some hockey fans think that fighting belongs in the game, as it adds a certain spice and excitement for many fans, and that it's been part of the game as far back as anybody can remember so it should stay (remind you of some of the supporting arguments made in favor of fanservice in anime? )

Other hockey fans think the game would be better off without it because they think it makes the game seem overly barbaric/immature/unprofessional, hence limiting the potential audience for hockey (remind you of some of the opposing arguments made against fanservice in anime?).

Most fandoms grapple with these sorts of questions. I don't think it makes anybody on either side less of a fan, it just means that fans can differ a bit on their personal visions for whatever they are a fan of.

[relentlessflame]

(See? Weak-willed...)

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But as far as I can see, the people who enjoyed such anime around me, online and in real life, are people who were already very grounded in the anime fandom and comfortable with it. I don't see this as a good thing really because it shows me that few titles today can provide the same sort of hook into the anime fandom that originally got me. These are not gateway shows.

They're not gateway shows for people with sensibilities like yours, granted. But let me throw this out there. I don't know if you noticed, but we had a lot of new forum memberships in the last season and a ton of participation around Highschool DxD. I am supposing (I may be wrong) that this is probably the sort of show that would never interest you, but I think it that -- for whatever reason -- it may very well be the "gateway anime" for a lot of new fans. And if you enter the market through that "gateway", I suspect you'll find a lot more in today's market that will appeal to you on an on-going basis.

I suppose that the show I'd consider my own "gateway" anime is Da Capo, and I'm sure some would probably consider that extremely niche. But it's what brought me to this site and forum, and pretty aptly connects to all the shows I've enjoyed since.

Also consider that, within Japan, manga is much more popular than anime. One of the new trends over the last few years has been to bundle anime with manga in a special limited edition. These pack-ins tend to sell much more than regular standalone anime. So I think it's quite possible that these "pack-in anime" could also be the "gateway anime" for a lot of new and upcoming Japanese fans.

So basically, I think what it takes to be a "gateway show" depends completely on the type of audience you're trying to reach. The may not be making as many anime that could serve as the gateway to people like you, but current shows may still serve as gateways to others.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Personally, I think that anybody who's currently engaged in the ongoing macro/meta-level discussion on anime on this thread, regardless of what position s/he's taking, has earned the right to call himself/herself an anime fan. Simply put, you don't engage in lengthy macro/meta-level discussions over an entertainment medium like we've done here unless you're passionate about it, and hence are fans of it.

I don't think it's about "the right to call yourself a fan". I'm sure I have just as much right as anyone else (at least I sure hope so). It's just not the best description of what I'm a fan of.

This isn't like being a hockey fan and arguing about fights, because hockey is a specific sport. This would be like saying your a "sports fan" if the only sport you actually like is hockey. Is it true? Sure it's true. But it's not very descriptive. If you get into a room with other "sports fans" and they like soccer, golf, and tennis, you may find that none of you have anything to talk about, even though you are all "sports fans". Of course, there are some people that really are all-around sports fans interested in pretty much every sport... but not everyone is like that.

This is what I mean by "anime is a medium, not a genre".

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So basically, I think what it takes to be a "gateway show" depends completely on the type of audience you're trying to reach.

Point taken. So if you can imagine a scenario where your type of gateway shows have been phased out (Or seem like they're getting phased out in large like this reaction thread seems to express) then you could possibly understand the concern they express about their status as an "anime fan" (Or whatever term you might want to use). Knowing you cited Da capo as a gateway show and express interest in a lot of galge/VN adaptions and the like, could you imagine if all these sorts of anime became nearly nonexistent? That's the kind of feeling many people have here.

I myself have expanded my tastes because I did start out very limited in this medium, but I know many who were not able to do so and have quit as a result (Or are just not very active with the hobby). The industry left them behind for better or for worse, and people just wish they didn't.

EDIT: And this is why I preach against insulating tendencies in the industry. It's not about phasing out certain kinds of anime, but not phasing out certain kinds of shows. Maintaining variety so as to make this a much more rich and interesting medium.