The Future of US Healthcare

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

This is the problem with legislators being independent of party. Members of Congress draw their strength from primary victories (which hardly anyone votes in yet are more important than the real election because of massive gerrymandering) so they can vote any way they want to regardless of what the party leadership says. The corruption of one Republican Senator doesn't reflect poorly on the entire party because everyone knows the Republican party can't do anything against its own members (except in extreme circumstances). In pretty much every other country where direct primary elections are non-existent, candidates in elections are picked by the party leadership and thus usually have to vote with the party. If one legislator engages in borderline corrupt activities it will reflect poorly on their party, which will either kick the legislator out or suffer the consequences in the next election.

The main problem is Americans think of Congressional elections in a local context, despite Congress being a body that is supposed to deal with national problems. This gives rise to the absurdity of people voting Republican in a presidential election and Democratic in Senate and House elections.

Furthermore, if members of Congress just voted the way their party leadership told them to then the issue of money in politics would be much smaller because an entire party is harder to corrupt than individual legislators. Elections would also be more transparent because voters would actually know how the person they're voting for is going to vote, and a more sensible health care bill would've been passed months ago.

but you don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people in smoke fill back rooms drawing up a list of people to be candidates? where is the democracy in that?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Actually, I'd argue it takes money away and makes you poorer. See, we can't afford this, but the Fed just prints more money to cover it. Since more money enters the economy, inflation happens and everything gets more expensive, and the money you have is worth less.

No, it's the pork in the other districts which makes me poorer. (Or would, if I lived in the US.)

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

otoh European style parliamentary election means that party leaders have a iron grip on their party members. I not sure if that is a better alternative.

It's not quite that extreme, but it helps formulating and negotiating proper laws without having to worry about blackmail later. I'd rather have legislation drafted and negotiated between the party leaders and their respective experts than having to pay healthcare laws with some agricultural funding elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

but you don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people in smoke fill back rooms drawing up a list of people to be candidates? where is the democracy in that?

No, that's not how it's being done, at least not in Germany. The priority list is voted on during party conventions. Candidates can compete for the spots they want to try, but naturally, if you're really unknown, you don't want to run against well-known old party figures. So you need to go down to those numbers where you think you have a realistic shot to win, but at the same time not so low that your party would have to win an unrealistic high share of votes for you to get in.

So, it _is_ a normal democratic process.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

but you don't see anything wrong with a bunch of people in smoke fill back rooms drawing up a list of people to be candidates? where is the democracy in that?

Well the people do or do not elect them. I don't know in detail of the German system, but here in Switzerland we can either simply endorse a party's whole list, pick out of it a few we don't like, or even make our own mix with candidates from different parties.

But I reckon our federal system here in Switzerland is vastly different from the ones in the US or Germany.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mentar

No, that's not how it's being done, at least not in Germany. The priority list is voted on during party conventions. Candidates can compete for the spots they want to try, but naturally, if you're really unknown, you don't want to run against well-known old party figures. So you need to go down to those numbers where you think you have a realistic shot to win, but at the same time not so low that your party would have to win an unrealistic high share of votes for you to get in.

So, it _is_ a normal democratic process.

That's... totally how it's done in France. I mean, yeah, officially, candidates are voted on, but it's often just a formality. Though it's not uncommon for local party members to mount a successful resistance against the central leadership.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Mentar

It's not quite that extreme, but it helps formulating and negotiating proper laws without having to worry about blackmail later. I'd rather have legislation drafted and negotiated between the party leaders and their respective experts than having to pay healthcare laws with some agricultural funding elsewhere.

i see where you coming form

edit: interesting enough that is how it used to work in the US before campaign finance reform. What happens was candidate use to depend on the party for campagin funds but campagin finance laws cap the amount that the party can give the candidates. So now candidate have to go raise money by themselves which put them under obligations to donors instead of the party leaders.

No, that's not how it's being done, at least not in Germany. The priority list is voted on during party conventions. Candidates can compete for the spots they want to try, but naturally, if you're really unknown, you don't want to run against well-known old party figures. So you need to go down to those numbers where you think you have a realistic shot to win, but at the same time not so low that your party would have to win an unrealistic high share of votes for you to get in.

So, it _is_ a normal democratic process.

still i just think it puts too much power in the party leaders.

[Reckoner]

Spoiler for For space:

Worldwide Corruption Perceptions ranking of countries
Rank Country Index 2009
1 New Zealand 9.4
2 Denmark 9.3
3 Singapore 9.2
3 Sweden 9.2
5 Switzerland 9
6 Finland 8.9
6 Netherlands 8.9
8 Australia 8.7
8 Canada 8.7
8 Iceland 8.7
11 Norway 8.6
12 Hong Kong 8.2
12 Luxembourg 8.2
14 Germany 8
14 Ireland 8
16 Austria 7.9
17 Japan 7.7
17 United Kingdom 7.7
19 United States 7.5
20 Barbados 7.4
21 Belgium 7.1
22 Qatar 7
22 Saint Lucia 7
24 France 6.9
25 Chile 6.7
25 Uruguay 6.7
27 Cyprus 6.6
27 Estonia 6.6
27 Slovenia 6.6
30 United Arab Emirates 6.5
31 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 6.4
32 Israel 6.1
32 Spain 6.1
34 Dominica 5.9
35 Portugal 5.8
35 Puerto Rico 5.8
37 Botswana 5.6
37 Taiwan 5.6
39 Brunei 5.5
39 Oman 5.5
39 South Korea 5.5
42 Mauritius 5.4
43 Costa Rica 5.3
43 Macau 5.3
45 Malta 5.2
46 Bahrain 5.1
46 Cape Verde 5.1
46 Hungary 5.1
49 Bhutan 5
49 Jordan 5
49 Poland 5
52 Czech Republic 4.9
52 Lithuania 4.9
54 Seychelles 4.8
55 South Africa 4.7
56 Latvia 4.5
56 Malaysia 4.5
56 Namibia 4.5
56 Samoa 4.5
56 Slovakia 4.5
61 Cuba 4.4
61 Turkey 4.4
63 Italy 4.3
63 Saudi Arabia 4.3
65 Tunisia 4.2
66 Croatia 4.1
66 Georgia 4.1
66 Kuwait 4.1
69 Ghana 3.9
69 Montenegro 3.9
71 Bulgaria 3.8
71 Macedonia 3.8
71 Greece 3.8
71 Romania 3.8
75 Brazil 3.7
75 Colombia 3.7
75 Peru 3.7
75 Suriname 3.7
79 Burkina Faso 3.6
79 China 3.6
79 Swaziland 3.6
79 Trinidad and Tobago 3.6
83 Serbia[21] 3.5
84 El Salvador 3.4
84 Guatemala 3.4
84 India 3.4
84 Panama 3.4
84 Thailand 3.4
89 Lesotho 3.3
89 Malawi 3.3
89 Mexico 3.3

89 Moldova 3.3
89 Morocco 3.3
89 Rwanda 3.3
95 Albania 3.2
95 Vanuatu 3.2
97 Liberia 3.1
97 Sri Lanka 3.1
99 Bosnia and Herzegovina 3
99 Dominican Republic 3
99 Jamaica 3
99 Madagascar 3
99 Senegal 3
99 Tonga 3
99 Zambia 3
106 Argentina 2.9
106 Benin 2.9
106 Gabon 2.9
106 Gambia 2.9
106 Niger 2.9
111 Algeria 2.8
111 Djibouti 2.8
111 Egypt 2.8
111 Indonesia 2.8
111 Kiribati 2.8
111 Mali 2.8
111 São Tomé and Príncipe 2.8
111 Solomon Islands 2.8
111 Togo 2.8
120 Armenia 2.7
120 Bolivia 2.7
120 Ethiopia 2.7
120 Kazakhstan 2.7
120 Mongolia 2.7
120 Vietnam 2.7
126 Eritrea 2.6
126 Guyana 2.6
126 Syria 2.6
126 Tanzania 2.6
130 Honduras 2.5
130 Lebanon 2.5
130 Libya 2.5
130 Maldives 2.5
130 Mauritania 2.5
130 Mozambique 2.5
130 Nicaragua 2.5
130 Nigeria 2.5
130 Uganda 2.5
139 Bangladesh 2.4
139 Belarus 2.4
139 Pakistan 2.4
139 Philippines 2.4
143 Azerbaijan 2.3
143 Comoros 2.3
143 Nepal 2.3
146 Cameroon 2.2
146 Ecuador 2.2
146 Kenya 2.2
146 Russia 2.2
146 Sierra Leone 2.2
146 Timor-Leste 2.2
146 Ukraine 2.2
146 Zimbabwe 2.2
154 Côte d'Ivoire 2.1
154 Papua New Guinea 2.1
154 Paraguay 2.1
154 Yemen 2.1
158 Cambodia 2
158 Central African Republic 2
158 Laos 2
158 Tajikistan 2
162 Angola 1.9
162 Republic of the Congo 1.9
162 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1.9
162 Guinea-Bissau 1.9
162 Kyrgyzstan 1.9
162 Venezuela 1.9
168 Burundi 1.8
168 Equatorial Guinea 1.8
168 Guinea 1.8
168 Haiti 1.8
168 Iran 1.8
168 Turkmenistan 1.8
174 Uzbekistan 1.7
175 Chad 1.6
176 Iraq 1.5
176 Sudan 1.5
178 Myanmar 1.4
179 Afghanistan 1.3
180 Somalia 1.1
– Belize
– Grenada

Germany truthfully isn't that much less corrupt than the US though...

[ChainLegacy]

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that all (or the majority) of the western-style governments are full of their own problems (read: they suck). I mean, I don't like the American government as much as the next guy, but I don't exactly see the European nations as some shining beacon of hope that we should emulate.

[Autumn Demon]

"Perception" of corruption.

Anyway, I'm glad Obama has decided to keep pushing for the Democrats' health care bill. It's really hard to tell if the Senate bill will pass through the House, I'd put the odds at less than 50%.

It's still unbelievable how the Democrats' huge majority going from 60 to 59 in the Senate has almost killed health care reform. If Arlen Specter hadn't switched parties to give the Dems their filibuster proof majority then maybe health care reform would've passed easier. The Dems having 59 senators all last year would've made moderate Republican senators Specter and the two Maine ones feel more inclined to support the bill and defuse charges of anti-bipartisanship.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

"Perception" of corruption.

Anyway, I'm glad Obama has decided to keep pushing for the Democrats' health care bill. It's really hard to tell if the Senate bill will pass through the House, I'd put the odds at less than 50%.

It's still unbelievable how the Democrats' huge majority going from 60 to 59 in the Senate has almost killed health care reform. If Arlen Specter hadn't switched parties to give the Dems their filibuster proof majority then maybe health care reform would've passed easier. The Dems having 59 senators all last year would've made moderate Republican senators Specter and the two Maine ones feel more inclined to support the bill and defuse charges of anti-bipartisanship.

The rampant buddy buddy nature of both houses of congress do a disservice to the people, especially after the recent "Rangel" corruption charges, yet Peloci won't do anything to Rangel when he has been found to be corrupt, this hypocrisy, continues to fuel the right, conservative, corporatist that continue to fight the basic rights to the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness guaranteed in the constitution.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Germany truthfully isn't that much less corrupt than the US though...

That's what you read out of this ranking? ^_^;

Thing is that in the US it isn't even CONSIDERED corruption if companies are sending their armies of lobbyists to buy (yes, buy!) senators. I mean, just recently the so-called (can't do without this qualification) "supreme court" decided that corporations are allowed to openly spend as much money as they want on political campaigns (because Corporations are to be treated like natural persons, and as such possess freedom of speech rights).

So if a corporation feels like throwing 100 million bucks into the election campaign of key politicians, to influence policies in their favor, they now can just do that. The financial stranglehold these corporations have over politicians will change from "very significant" to "near absolute". Look at the those democratic bastards in the senate who were obstructing any real reform: All of them were chained to health-related lobbyists.

And the funniest thing of all: This disgrace isn't even CONSIDERED corruption. It's glorified as "the American way".

*lol*

Reckoner: To give you an idea: When the ruling party of the German state Northrhine-Westphalia was caught selling promotional stands on expos with the extra option of gaining a photoshoot and a meet-and-greet with the prime minister for ~5000 Euro (which is considered absolutely normal in the US), it caused such a big scandal that they had to fire their secretary-general. And it may very well cause him to lose his reelection bid in May.

No, when it comes to corporate meddling in politics, the differences between the US and Germany are like light and day. America came very far with their corporatism-uber-alles approach, but I honestly think that the pendulum is now swinging in the wrong direction. The reasonable balance has been lost, and unfettered corporatism is now causing more problems than it solves.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That's what you read out of this ranking? ^_^;

Personally I'm glad to be in the Top 5

Thing is that in the US it isn't even CONSIDERED corruption if companies are sending their armies of lobbyists to buy (yes, buy!) senators. I mean, just recently the so-called (can't do without this qualification) "supreme court" decided that corporations are allowed to openly spend as much money as they want on political campaigns (because Corporations are to be treated like natural persons, and as such possess freedom of speech rights).

So if a corporation feels like throwing 100 million bucks into the election campaign of key politicians, to influence policies in their favor, they now can just do that. The financial stranglehold these corporations have over politicians will change from "very significant" to "near absolute". Look at the those democratic bastards in the senate who were obstructing any real reform: All of them were chained to health-related lobbyists.

And the funniest thing of all: This disgrace isn't even CONSIDERED corruption. It's glorified as "the American way".

*lol*

Reckoner: To give you an idea: When the ruling party of the German state Northrhine-Westphalia was caught selling promotional stands on expos with the extra option of gaining a photoshoot and a meet-and-greet with the prime minister for ~5000 Euro (which is considered absolutely normal in the US), it caused such a big scandal that they had to fire their secretary-general. And it may very well cause him to lose his reelection bid in May.

No, when it comes to corporate meddling in politics, the differences between the US and Germany are like light and day. America came very far with their corporatism-uber-alles approach, but I honestly think that the pendulum is now swinging in the wrong direction. The reasonable balance has been lost, and unfettered corporatism is now causing more problems than it solves.

I noticed that France was lower on this perceived scale than the US, but I think these a due to:
-past "occult" party funding practices
-the abundant amount of pork circulating in a centralized administration
-immediate frowning at connection between politicians and Big Money

Any French to clarify this (as a French speaking Swiss, I am highly exposed to French Media, but that's not worth the insiders analysis)?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I wonder if things will ever get so bad that true anti-corporatist reforms will be pushed through.

Considering the current state of my country? I'd say that once things get that bad, corpses is what'll get pushed through, not laws.

No government lasts forever, and a democracy can only survive until its citizens discover that they can vote for entitlements from the public fund. I'd add some other nifty libertarian quotes here, but in the current situation, they tend to ring hollow.

In 2010, there are plenty of us willing, able and ready--rearing to go!--to work.

Problem is nobody will hire us. =/ February 26, 2010 was my one-year anniversary of not having a fucking job. Not because I'm lazy, but because I can't get hired. So I don't have any health insurance, either.

Fairly recently I suffered a pretty unpleasant bout of food poisoning--my stomach was so upset I couldn't even drink. I ended up dehydrating and passing out in front of a bunch of people. The folks around me hit 911 and whistled up an ambulance. Of course, I was okay, blood tests just showed food poisoning, I was told to drink lots of water, get plenty of rest, take it easy, etc.

Now I have a $1500 ambulance bill.

This isn't the way it should work.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That's what you read out of this ranking? ^_^;

Thing is that in the US it isn't even CONSIDERED corruption if companies are sending their armies of lobbyists to buy (yes, buy!) senators. I mean, just recently the so-called (can't do without this qualification) "supreme court" decided that corporations are allowed to openly spend as much money as they want on political campaigns (because Corporations are to be treated like natural persons, and as such possess freedom of speech rights).

So if a corporation feels like throwing 100 million bucks into the election campaign of key politicians, to influence policies in their favor, they now can just do that. The financial stranglehold these corporations have over politicians will change from "very significant" to "near absolute". Look at the those democratic bastards in the senate who were obstructing any real reform: All of them were chained to health-related lobbyists.

And the funniest thing of all: This disgrace isn't even CONSIDERED corruption. It's glorified as "the American way".

*lol*

Reckoner: To give you an idea: When the ruling party of the German state Northrhine-Westphalia was caught selling promotional stands on expos with the extra option of gaining a photoshoot and a meet-and-greet with the prime minister for ~5000 Euro (which is considered absolutely normal in the US), it caused such a big scandal that they had to fire their secretary-general. And it may very well cause him to lose his reelection bid in May.

No, when it comes to corporate meddling in politics, the differences between the US and Germany are like light and day. America came very far with their corporatism-uber-alles approach, but I honestly think that the pendulum is now swinging in the wrong direction. The reasonable balance has been lost, and unfettered corporatism is now causing more problems than it solves.

But you see, the thing with this is that this has more to do with political culture than anything. Pardon if I am interpreting German culture wrong here, but Germany by nature is not very wasteful. They prefer to save money and hold onto it rather than spend it. This is part of the reason why Germany is a major export nation. It is because of this reasoning that people in Germany have sometimes shot themselves in the foot (During recession you need money to flow).

Anyhow, my actual point in bringing this up is that this is why Germans are so much more sensitive to the outrageous spending that goes on all the time in government, and life in general.

This is not to say that I am justifying the US by any means, but this gives a reason why your country is much more "sensitive" to these sorts of wasteful practices.

Believe me, I hate how we are essentially the United Corporates of America as much as the next person, but many things are connected to the political culture of a country. And the only way you are going to change that is for someone to start actively calling out these people and showing the corruption. But whether it is our media, the supreme court, or our senate, everyone just seems to lying around in bed together...

As for what this topic is about, since I don't want to get too far off topic. Our health care legislation is getting holes punctured in it constantly by interest groups and insurance companies as we all know so I've come to the same conclusion as many have in this forum.

We are screwed. Convert yourself to the Church of Capitalism or be smitten by it.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

This isn't the way it should work.

That's how the american dream works, either you're one of thet 0.001% that gets filthy rich or you may just die in the gutter
just don't bother others who are also working to achieve the dream with it

Like hippies suddenly getting a well paid jobs, they change their tune once they're on the other side

(With that I don't mean you Syn. unless ofcourse you were against any social reforms before you lost your job)

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But you see, the thing with this is that this has more to do with political culture than anything. Pardon if I am interpreting German culture wrong here, but Germany by nature is not very wasteful. They prefer to save money and hold onto it rather than spend it. This is part of the reason why Germany is a major export nation. It is because of this reasoning that people in Germany have sometimes shot themselves in the foot (During recession you need money to flow).

Anyhow, my actual point in bringing this up is that this is why Germans are so much more sensitive to the outrageous spending that goes on all the time in government, and life in general.

This is not to say that I am justifying the US by any means, but this gives a reason why your country is much more "sensitive" to these sorts of wasteful practices.

Believe me, I hate how we are essentially the United Corporates of America as much as the next person, but many things are connected to the political culture of a country. And the only way you are going to change that is for someone to start actively calling out these people and showing the corruption. But whether it is our media, the supreme court, or our senate, everyone just seems to lying around in bed together...

As for what this topic is about, since I don't want to get too far off topic. Our health care legislation is getting holes punctured in it constantly by interest groups and insurance companies as we all know so I've come to the same conclusion as many have in this forum.

We are screwed. Convert yourself to the Church of Capitalism or be smitten by it.

Well the fact of the matter is there isn't an honest dialogue about health insurance reform let alone health care reform. With television and the internet there is so much noise that tries to distract us from the facts and the lies and half truths. If there were no lies about health care more people would be informed and more people would calling for it's reform, the only people who wouldn't care are those that aren't sick, or don't have family members who are sick. The status quo will bankrupt this country long before the supposed burden filled entitlements the corporations claim will bankrupt us. Hell the imperialistic overtones of American foreign policy are more likely to not bankrupt us compared to the growing expenditures that the middleclass, working poor and impoverished are paying to get health care, and the sad fact is, in this country if you don't have insurance you don't get health care.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by JMvS

Personally I'm glad to be in the Top 5



I noticed that France was lower on this perceived scale than the US, but I think these a due to:
-past "occult" party funding practices

... "past"?

-the abundant amount of pork circulating in a centralized administration

I don't feel that there's a lot of pork - on the national level. The government uses ways to reward big business other than building bridges to nowhere (like stifling the competition through regulations, for example).

-immediate frowning at connection between politicians and Big Money

Any French to clarify this (as a French speaking Swiss, I am highly exposed to French Media, but that's not worth the insiders analysis)?

Yeah, actually, I have no idea why we're so low on perceived corruption. With all the bitching going on, you'd think we lived in a banana republic (minus the mysterious disappearances of detractors). Then again, as with Germany, what's normal in the US would be scandalous and possibly highly illegal here.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

With that I don't mean you Syn. unless ofcourse you were against any social reforms before you lost your job

Well, it's like this. I'm against wasting money. By anyone. And the government has been wasting literal shitloads. First they bailed out the banks, now they're spending ungodly amounts of cash (that we don't really have) on uh... I'm not really sure what they're spending it all on.

But like Romney said a few days ago, did borrowing all this money from China actually make America better?

I'm inclined to disagree.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Well, it's like this. I'm against wasting money. By anyone. And the government has been wasting literal shitloads. First they bailed out the banks, now they're spending ungodly amounts of cash (that we don't really have) on uh... I'm not really sure what they're spending it all on.

But like Romney said a few days ago, did borrowing all this money from China actually make America better?

I'm inclined to disagree.

Romeny, Sara Palin, Sara pac, the tea party, the republicans, have offered little to no answers to the problems we face, they scream tort reform, well check, it's in the bill, and then during the clinton era they screamed personal mandate, now that's in too, guess what they still vote no. These people don't have any ideas on how to reform health because they believe the "free" markets will work themselves out. These aren't free markets and nobody complained about the debt during Reagan's administration, or during Bush I, or Bush II, it's the hypocrisy and the blantant destruction of the common good, the common welfare of the people that is hurting America, and that's not even factoring in the corporations and their incredible influence in Health care reform and every other aspect of government policy.

[synaesthetic]

The free market can't work it all out because the market isn't free. Never has been. As much as I hate to admit it, a truly free market is, like a socialist utopia, nothing but a pipe dream. It'll never happen, no matter how much I want it to, no matter how well it'd actually work in practice.

I'm really siding with Mentar on this one, as unusual as that sounds. The combination of an apathetic, corrupt media and an apathetic, corrupt government means that the citizens get doubly screwed.