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Originally Posted by Momosan
So because I didn't read all 200+ pages of a topic I can't add to the discussion? I'll keep in mind that offering your opinion means that you're self-centric.
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I don't want to sound preachy, but indeed it does, and I'm glad you're taking this lesson seriously.
...No, really.
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Once again, you're obviously going to ignore the many examples I've listed which describe how Lelouch is constantly tending to the needs of those around him. Like I said before, Lelouch will not sacrifice goals for methods. You want to ignore the reasons for the actions and instead focus on the actions themselves. That kind of narrow-minded view can't possibly grasp the entirety of Lelouch's character. Lelouch never intentionally harmed anyone unless they were obstructing his goals.
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*sigh* Your ignorance is exhausting.
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I don't understand how you can honestly think Lelouch was an asshole. So Lelouch makes the world hate him in order to unite them against a cause and sacrifices everything he's accomplished and his power over people in order to bring peace to the world. How is that being an asshole? Did you call your mother and asshole when she told you to brush your teeth every night? We might not like everything that happens in life, but sometimes those things are still for the best.
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I don't
think Lelouch was an asshole. Lelouch
was an asshole. That was his
plan. Lelouch's plan didn't involve
pretending to be an asshole. It involved
being an asshole genuinely. There was no way Lelouch could have accomplished what he needed to accomplish--making the world hate him--with anything less than
%100 effort.
You think I'm ignoring the reasoning behind his actions? I am talking
precisely about the reasoning behind his actions. Do you honestly not understand the
point of Lelouch taking Fleija from Nunally? He was keeping her hands clean by dirtying his. "I will bear all of your sins" means, "I will commit all the sins so you don't have to", not "I will bear your punishment". You think I'm ignoring your captain obvious examples? They're not mentioned, because they're
irrelevant:
before Zero Requiem Lelouch wasn't an asshole (though this is arguable) because he wasn't
trying to be;
after Zero Requiem, he was because he
was. And you should get your head out of your asshole about Lelouch's saintliness, too, or did you really forget all about Turn 14?
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lol @ Shirley discussion. Does anyone here find Shirley to be decisive when it came to her relationship with Lelouch? She shot Viletta out of necessity, not determination. After regaining her memories she was aware that Lelouch is Zero. She is aware that he indirectly killed her father and was regretful over that fact. She remembers shooting at him and he took no forceful action against her. Instead he did what he felt would be least painful and altered her memories using his Geass. Oh wait, I forgot, you think Lelouch is an asshole.
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Can anyone her find Shirley to
not have been decisive in her relationship with Lelouch? Given that, oh I don't know, it was precisely her
decisiveness which killed her.
Kallen understood that The Black Knights were nothing without Zero. If Zero were to die do you think they could've mustered any kind of resistance against Britannia? Kallen had already been down that road only to be saved from death by Zero, along with every other Black Knight. Kallen remained true to Zero so long as Zero supported her agenda. When Zero showed signs of betrayal she didn't hesitate to retaliate. For all intensive purposes, Zero was TBK, and she WAS his personal bodyguard.[/QUOTE]
And here you again demonstrate your completely shallow capacity to understand personality. Shirley's faithfulness was extraordinary, there is no doubt about that. Kallen's defining personality trait was not 'decisiveness', there is no doubt about that either. Against someone so obviously willing to twist facts into a double standard, I hardly find the inclination to continue this discussion.
Your oh so black and white declaration as to Kallen's motives failed to address her hesitation with Lancelot's pilot. For the majority of the series, Kallen has been strong when told to be only. This is because a trait which has defined her is her capacity as a follower; Kallen lives for others' dreams, notably Lelouch's and her brother's. To try to characterize the strength she gains from this as 'decisiveness' is a serious failure in understanding her character.
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No shit he lies to Shirley and Nunnally, when did I say he didn't? I said he never lied to Kallen. Your counterpoint is Episode 19. I already asked if you meant where he calls her a pawn then whispers to her to survive. If that's your single lie to Kallen then I guess I'll just have to throw my hands up and accept my resounding defeat.
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Indeed you do. "Never" means never, after all.
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I didn't mean that his motives were wrong. I think everyone can admire his desire to create a peaceful world for his sister. I meant his methods. It was an apparent typo as could be seen in the following sentence. As for calling me incoherent, have you made a single argument without trying to attack my character yet? Anyways, How is telling Lelouch that his mother is a misguided geass user going to change his agenda? Lelouch hated his father for not protecting his mother. Lelouch didn't create TBK and challenge Britannia because he hated his father, he did it because his father was creating an eltitist world which would trample weak people like Nunnally. Therefore, how would divulging information on Marianne have affected his goals?
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On attacking your character; sorry, you just make it too easy.
Lelouch's motives
were wrong, though. He killed and antagonized his own family in a misguided attempt to avenge his mother's death. He blamed his father for being a heartless tyrant when he had actually been looking out for him. He submerged the world in war and bloodshed claiming it was 'for his sister', when she had nevered asked for that and would never accept such a bloody present anyway. He destroyed a happiness he long should have recognized before abandoning it completely. Knowing that his mother
wasn't his family's enemy, that his father
wasn't a despicable tyrant, that Nunally was
already happy, and that the world didn't
need destruction before reconstruction, would have saved so many lives.
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I never once said C.C. wanted to make Charles suffer. I said she didn't pass her code to Mao because she didn't want him to suffer more than he already had and she didn't pass it to Lelouch because their romance had already begun PRIOR to him being able to attain her code. Once he could obtain her code, she didn't want to curse him anyways. She felt no reserve when contemplating giving her code to Charles though which is why she hopped on the opportunity at the first chance.
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The 'first chance'? He had had his Geass for ~50 years. You think Charles only gained double Geass the moment he sealed Lelouch's memories?
I highly doubt Mao would have considered being free from the voices 'more suffering' either. Your projection of
love onto C.C.'s motives is completely laughable. Who'd love a kid who didn't know anything, could hardly control his emotions, and needed her to bail him out all the time? It was never even a
possibility for her until Turn 15, and even then she had to run away to deal with the guilt that she was betraying him.
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As stated in my argument, everything referring to the world of C.C. and the limitations of Geass Code are pure conjecture. No point in arguing this any further since obviously we're confident in believing different things.
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Wow, great argument. 'I'm confident that the facts you stated with concrete evidence from the show are pure conjecture'. C.C. sealed her Code and lost her memories. Charles traded in his Geass to achieve immortality. These are facts, and you're ignoring them.
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How does Rolo disprove my arguments? How does C.C. know that Charles has fully developed Geass when she doesn't even come into contact with him? Charles didn't take V.V.'s code until it fit within the timeframe of his plan
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Why would Charles' Geass disappear with V.V.'s transfer when Rolo's didn't? They both recieved theirs from V.V.. As for C.C. being in contact with Charles, she's known him for twenty years, and obviously because of Geass. Charles would never have taken his brother's Code if he hadn't betrayed him
twice by trying to kill Marianne and her children and lied about it.
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When Gino nearly destroys his KM frame he nonchalantly hops out and runs on ahead while Suzaku stays back to clean up. You asked, "If he's immortal why didn't he fake his death against Gino to catch Schniezel off guard" or something to that effect. The reason is he already had the entire match in checkmate, there was no reason to try and fake his own death when nothing was left to prevent him from Geassing his brother. Like I said before, I'm not going to sift through the episodes and list the times Lelouch fears for his life. It's self evident in many scenes.
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'Nonchalantly'?
Please. You've got nothing to back that up besides your wish for it. And no, he didn't already have the match in 'checkmate'; that's why he had to run up a ton of stairs to set up an elaborate video. Seriously, this is the third time now: why would Lelouch have to distract Schniezel if he wasn't afraid of his bodyguards?
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Why is it a stupid plan if he's immortal? Convince the world you're an asshole when you're actually looking out for their best interest. Unite everyone against you then feign your death. It was a simple solution to a complex problem which requires his death, which isn't a problem when he has Charles's code. I'm sure he considered averting world peace to stop the tears from a few close friends.
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Because Zero Requiem wasn't the only way to world peace. Far from it.
Especially if he's immortal. There's no need to sacrifice himself (or those thousands in his Geassed army); Schniezel/Damocles could've served as a symbol of hate very nicely. Not to mention, since you're so vehement to deny Lelouch's character development, he could have played up a reincarnating messiah of miracles figure just like he already once tried to do with Zero--spread tomorrow by word of religion, yo. It's peaceful and all that shit.
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lol, yeah you're right. Why make a complex plan to allow Suzaku to control Schniezel's ambitions and talents when he could've just somehow pentrated an energy barrier then walked through the ship unharmed and smoked Schniezel, thereby wasting his talents, instead. Oh wait, how about when Lelouch gets shot he passes out? C.C. was immortal but they still were able to capture and imprison her. Lelouch's plan, while he must totally be an asshole, had less casualties and enabled a more productive future with an ambitiously misguided man able to tend to peacetime needs. (also referenced as a bonus by Cornelia) There is a big difference between immortality and invulnerability in Code Geass.
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Suzaku controlling 'Schniezel's ambitions and talents'? lol what the hell are you on. You know what Lelouch could have pulled if he got shot? The same trick as dear old daddy--Schniezel, shocked with his victory, gets close unsuspectingly when
BAM!--mindfucked, everybody bows down in stunned subjugation.
You're also deluding yourself if you think Zero Requiem had 'less casualties'.
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Originally Posted by Lie
When did this happen? She didn't try to convince him of anything, she flat out told him he'd have to be prepared to kill Nunally. Trying to convince someone of not doing something usually involves: "Isn't there another way?" "Why not do this?" and so on.
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C.C. does actually tell him "you've done enough", actually. I agree with the interpretation that C.C. was unhappy with the plan/trying to discourage him initially.
All Haill Lelouch x C.C
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