Twilight

[Kyero Fox]

FANS! LOOK AWAY!

[Luminisk]

Originally Posted by Narona

Not to sound annoying, but what does it have to do with what you said again? (hint: the attack against feminism from a fantasy book, and how it undoes what is done so far IRL about it)

As you can see, not so long ago, women were not able, or better, didn't have the right, to enjoy whatever they want, or to read whatever they want. For them to be able nowadays to do that without being criticized for it is a proof that feminism did lead us there.

In retrospect, I should have split that sentences in two complete thought, but I was lazy and was going for impact as I ended the post.

The problem stems back to its popularity, which is where I tried to direct my criticism at and not the audience; I admit I did slip one or two times.

While the series might change anything in real life, it offers no support for the feminist cause either. It provides literary examples of man of steel woman of Kleenex; that one can be shallow and helpless as long as there is a man to bail you out. The series has misogynistic elements at its core and is wrapped in a wish fulfillment fantasy. My biases aside, I cannot come up with a rational argument to justify the popularity, among women, that it does.

[Mr. DJ]

@Kyero Fox

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Luminisk

My biases aside, I cannot come up with a rational argument to justify the popularity, among women, that it does.

I can, somewhat, having friends who are fans of the series. It appeals to them because Edward is, apparently, the classic "bad boy" of fiction: the guy who claims he's dangerous and wants to be left alone. Women like to think that they're strong enough, important enough, to change these "bad boys" and make them honest, decent, respectable men. There's some basis to this IRL, but in general it's largely a fiction thing. So when women tend to read about Edward, they see him as a brooding, angsty man and want to be the ones to "change" him.

It also helps that as a character, Bella is less of a heroine and more of a mouthpiece for the reader to live out her own fantasies, since the story is told in first person and Bella is given no real personality or defining traits that makes her unique. That way, the reader can see herself as Bella, and can assume that Edward, this handsome, lonely, addictive boy, is completely and absolutely in love with them.

My two cents on it, anyway. That's what I find to be the common reason for the saga's overwhelming popularity, for my friends and a couple others.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Luminisk

In retrospect, I should have split that sentences in two complete thought, but I was lazy and was going for impact as I ended the post.

The problem stems back to its popularity, which is where I tried to direct my criticism at and not the audience; I admit I did slip one or two times.

While the series might change anything in real life, it offers no support for the feminist cause either. It provides literary examples of man of steel woman of Kleenex; that one can be shallow and helpless as long as there is a man to bail you out. The series has misogynistic elements at its core and is wrapped in a wish fulfillment fantasy. My biases aside, I cannot come up with a rational argument to justify the popularity, among women, that it does.

I see, but for example, somebody can too be fan of violent games who don't promote peace but war and use of devastating weapons. Or even in anime, do you know the anime Code Geass? A lot of girls seem to be fan of Lelouch, while he is a serial murderer, liar etc. (as you can see, he's nowhere near perfection).

Whatever the popularity of something, as i asked you, does it change the view of most women [who read it] about feminism in real life? Can we generalize an entire fanbase based on the actions of a few extremists fans reported by the medias? Do you also get as mad as you are when you look at the GTA games' popularity and some of their fans? If you do, then I understand your critics

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Narona

I see, but for example, somebody can too be fan of violent games who don't promote peace but war and use of devastating weapons. Or even in anime, do you know the anime Code Geass? A lot of girls seem to be fan of Lelouch, while he is a serial murderer, liar etc. (as you can see, he's nowhere near perfection).

Whatever the popularity of something, as i asked you, does it change the view of most women [who read it] about feminism in real life? Can we generalize an entire fanbase based on the actions of a few extremists fans reported by the medias? Do you also get as mad as you are when you look at the GTA games' popularity and some of their fans? If you do, then I understand your critics

As a note, Lelouch had multiple personas in the Code Geass verse, and women fell for his charming, in-school persona, which is that of a calm, calculative, handsome, bishonen. The only one to know of his Zero persona and still love him is Kallen...and even then, she knows for a fact that Lelouch is not a serial killer out of choice, it's just collateral damage. Plus, he is a very charismatic person, the case hardly applies here.

And in any case, yes, Twilight does affect to a certain extent about how women think, and not positively either. I mean, come on, a girl who goes catatonic for a year or so because her knight-in-gliterry-skin-shining-armor left her, is not exactly a sign of strength and moral power.

And ya know, I asked a lot of people why Bella loves Edward, and the only reason they can come up with is... he's hot.

Gee, way to promote non-superficiality and true love there.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

As a note, Lelouch had multiple personas in the Code Geass verse, and women fell for his charming, in-school persona, which is that of a calm, calculative, handsome, bishonen. The only one to know of his Zero persona and still love him is Kallen...and even then, she knows for a fact that Lelouch is not a serial killer out of choice, it's just collateral damage. Plus, he is a very charismatic person, the case hardly applies here.

There still not only good messages in CG.

And in any case, yes, Twilight does affect to a certain extent about how women think, and not positively either.

Prove that it affects more than the extremist fans that the medias anti-twilight like to use to generalize a fanbase. Bring a serious study please.

I mean, come on, a girl who goes catatonic for a year or so because her knight-in-gliterry-skin-shining-armor left her, is not exactly a sign of strength and moral power.

Prove that what does happen in a fantasy book has an incident on the real life of most women who liked the books. To bring a part of a book just like that doesn't prove anything beside that you just quote a part from a fantasy book.

And ya know, I asked a lot of people why Bella loves Edward, and the only reason they can come up with is... he's hot.

Gee, way to promote non-superficiality and true love there.

That's still avoiding my points. A lot of women could generalize about things about boys liking GTA, Porn, rape sims, erotic games etc. When it happens, boys like to say that "it's wrong, they are not affected IRL by it".

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Narona

There still not only good messages in CG.

Well, duh, it's not supposed to be a goody-goody Hello Kitty type of anime.

Originally Posted by Narona

Prove that it affects more than the extremist fans that the medias anti-twilight like to use to generalize a fanbase. Bring a serious study please.

Proof? Hell, serious study? Look around you and ask every twilight fan you see whether they wanna be just like Bella Swan in all her epicness. Probably they will say yes, because true love like Edward don't come easy.

Originally Posted by Narona

Prove that what does happen in a fantasy book has an incident on the real life of most women who liked the books. To bring a part of a book just like that doesn't prove anything beside that you just quote a part from a fantasy book.

I'm saying it's an influence, I never said that a girl actually goes catatonic from reading twilight. I don't think that is physically possible.

Originally Posted by Narona

That's still avoiding my points. A lot of women could generalize about things about boys liking GTA, Porn, rape sims, erotic games etc. When it happens, boys like to say that "it's wrong, they are not affected IRL by it".

Yes, well, sadly, the age group Twilight beckons to is the 11-18 female age group, and these are very impressionable people you must know. GTA, porn, eroges, etc, can only be played by people 17 and above. Okay, maybe I am being too optimistic if I say that everyone abides by the ESRB ratings, but still, by the time a guy watches porn, plays GTA, etc, they are relatively indifferent and just curious. You don't see us rave about porn either and say how epic it is. GTA, maybe, but that's because it's a damn good game. And honestly, if you compare it side by side, it would be obvious to see that crazy Twitards done more psychotic things than guys who watch porn and play GTA.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Yes, well, sadly, the age group Twilight beckons to is the 11-18 female age group, and these are very impressionable people you must know. GTA, porn, eroges, etc, can only be played by people 17 and above. Okay, maybe I am being too optimistic if I say that everyone abides by the ESRB ratings, but still, by the time a guy watches porn, plays GTA, etc, they are relatively indifferent and just curious. You don't see us rave about porn either and say how epic it is. GTA, maybe, but that's because it's a damn good game. And honestly, if you compare it side by side, it would be obvious to see that crazy Twitards done more psychotic things than guys who watch porn and play GTA.

Let me ask you a question. How do you play GTA? Do you just waste time blowing everything up like there's no tomorrow after finishing the story? I know my flatmates used to play like that and I never saw the point to it really. If that's what's good about GTA, I'm not really buying it. The reason I say this is because considering that's how most people I've known play the game, it has its way of promoting random violence and destruction. What Narona is trying to say, I think, is that despite GTA's common method of play, you don't see a lot of people running around with a rocket launcher blowing up cars just because it's fun. The same can be said about Twilight fans. As crappy a book as it is, it's not like it's affecting every single reader. A fan can at least aspire to it, wish for that kind of relationship, but not neccessarily insist on it. Extreme behavior, like the one I mentioned where fans asked the actor to suck their blood, can happen but rarely, as I'm sure most readers will recognize the relationship between Bella and Ed as teenage _abusive_ love based on nothing, and still like it although not be affected by it.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Proof? Hell, serious study? Look around you and ask every twilight fan you see whether they wanna be just like Bella Swan in all her epicness. Probably they will say yes, because true love like Edward don't come easy.

False. I actually know some twilight fans who are 13yo, and actually, here in France, most of thelù (those I know) when I ask questions are aware it's a fantasy book series, and while being fan, they are aware Bella is a character from a fiction. Using personal experience to generalize is bad because it doesn't represent the big picture, so please, bring a serious study on the table to back up your claims about "every twilight fans/girls do this and that".

I'm saying it's an influence, I never said that a girl actually goes catatonic from reading twilight. I don't think that is physically possible.

And I don't think vampires exist, so if as you and many people implied so many girls want to find an edward, I doubt they will success at it on that aspect. That said, stop thinking all girls are that stupid

Yes, well, sadly, the age group Twilight beckons to is the 11-18 female age group, and these are very impressionable people you must know. GTA, porn, eroges, etc, can only be played by people 17 and above. Okay, maybe I am being too optimistic if I say that everyone abides by the ESRB ratings.

Definitely too optimistic. Given the study of the French sexuality from 2006, boys in France watch in average their first pornographic movie at 15, meaning that a good part if not half of it watchs it while being <15yo , and a good part doesn't stop at only one movie, y'know (Enquête sur la sexualité en France. 2008, Bozon & Bajos) (and i don't even count those who surely lie about when and how many porn movies they watched. And it's only % about porn movies, not even porn and erotic images)

but still, by the time a guy watches porn, plays GTA, etc, they are relatively indifferent and just curious. You don't see us rave about porn either and say how epic it is.

There were guys like that in my HS who expected girls to do "this and that" just like some porn superstars, you see, and from what I heard in some TV programs about health (Le journal de la Santé, France 5), there are doctors and psy who spotted young boys that were like that too. And guess what? Given some opinions, it gets worse (reportage that aired on M6). But maybe it's different where you live. Yet, I don't generalize the case to every boys who watch/ed porn.

GTA, maybe, but that's because it's a damn good game. And honestly,

Irrevelant to the discussion.

if you compare it side by side, it would be obvious to see that crazy Twitards done more psychotic things than guys who watch porn and play GTA

Study? Proofs? Number? %? Nothing seems obvious to me in what you said, sorry.

[Luminisk]

Originally Posted by Narona

I see, but for example, somebody can too be fan of violent games who don't promote peace but war and use of devastating weapons. Or even in anime, do you know the anime Code Geass? A lot of girls seem to be fan of Lelouch, while he is a serial murderer, liar etc. (as you can see, he's nowhere near perfection).

Whatever the popularity of something, as i asked you, does it change the view of most women [who read it] about feminism in real life? Can we generalize an entire fanbase based on the actions of a few extremists fans reported by the medias? Do you also get as mad as you are when you look at the GTA games' popularity and some of their fans? If you do, then I understand your critics

If you recall, I elborated 2 main arugments: one it sets no example as a literary piece, it actually lowers the standard; two it sets no social examples, it reinforces regressive ones.
Is required to have both for it to have the right to be popular? No, but the saga has neither.

My main gripe is the first one; it drags the standard of the media down. I hold literature to a higher standard than games, or movies (...or porn?) Do I find games like GTA lacking and questionable? Yes. Am I going to be angry at it? No. Why? Initially, because it belongs to a different media, you cannot compare two different medias nor hold it to the same standards. Secondly, it belongs to a media I do not subsribe to. I don't play games; well maybe Peggle and Plants vs. Zombies because it came installed on my girlfriend's laptop, but I digress. So I have no personal stake on whether or not the a certain game drags the standards of other games down, but I do care if a piece of literature drags the standards of others down.

I really don't want to waste anymore words on what the saga has to offer socially, so I'll just leave it to my other post.

[synaesthetic]

There's nothing inherently wrong with liking a work of fiction, even a particularly bad work of fiction. I have loads of guilty pleasures, horrible trash novels that I adore and read quite often.

But I acknowledge that they are garbage spewed forth on a piece of paper. For instance, I read trashy licensed fantasy novels, usually from the Forgotten Realms license. They're not stellar examples of literary excellence, but they're fun to read, else I wouldn't keep reading them.

If someone I know wants to read Twilight and has fun reading it, that's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative to mock them repeatedly for it. First Amendment and all. God bless America. I'm not for censoring or banning anything, including bad romance/fantasy doorstoppers written for horny teenage girls and emotionally needy middle-aged women.

Trolling people for the express purpose of an amusing reaction aside, there's also nothing wrong with critically examining said piece of fiction and bringing up its bad points. If we don't judge works on their merits, then what incentive is there for authors to produce high-quality works?

Twilight is just a bad book. In my opinion, it's level of badness is so great it's almost offensive. I don't think it (or any book) should be banned. After all, making fun of Twilight is entertaining and if it didn't exist, I wouldn't be able to mercilessly troll the shit out of the hardcore fans.

[Luminisk]

@synaesthetic

What you said was more or less what I was trying to get at.

But in case of those throwaway novels the fan-base is a niche at best and quickly fades into obscurity; Twilight is a plague.

[blue skies]

I picked up the first novel in the series at Thanksgiving, when my 14-year-old cousin left it lying on the kitchen table. Edward and Bella forever!!!!1!!!!1!

Honestly, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There are loads of terrible young adult books out there, and yes, while Twilight is exceptional in its shittiness, I don't see how it's so much different from a lot of those. I suppose the rabid fanbase and its enormous success are the biggest things that set it apart, but I don't find any reason to get upset over it. It's like the vampire equivalent of those cheap paperback romance novels, except five times longer and with more angst than should be humanly possible.

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Proof? Hell, serious study? Look around you and ask every twilight fan you see whether they wanna be just like Bella Swan in all her epicness. Probably they will say yes, because true love like Edward don't come easy.

If they want to be special snowflakes like Bella, it's most likely because of what you said -- they want to meet their Edward (OMG!! <3). Most girls feel the same way after they watch Cinderella. And while Ed may not be an ideal person to fall in love with, neither are a lot of men in fiction. Most Twilight fans seem to be aware that it's a book, not a script for real life. Like I've seen oh-so-many people claim in the defense of games or anime with questionable content, it's fiction. Most 13-year-old girls aren't going to consciously emulate what they read in a book, just like most 13-year-old boys aren't going to beat up prostitutes and shoot cops because GTA told them to. Young people in general may be easily influenced, but they're not going to look for an emotionally abusive jackass just because Bella Swan married one.

I don't really see the book as a blow to feminism like some people say it is. At least, no more so than a typical romance novel or some cheesy, idealized couple in young adult fiction. Bella may be unique in her raging stupidity, and her crippling dependency on Sparkles is irritating to say the least, but I found her no worse than some female leads in shoujo manga I've read. I don't even know if it's Bella that the fans like so much as it is the idea of her -- a fairly unremarkable girl and her romance with a mysterious, attractive boy. It's something they'll probably grow out of in time. Twilight is nothing more than cheap fantasy, which everyone on this board should be able to relate to in some way. And there's nothing wrong with indulging in it, crappy though it may be.

Bad? Yes. An insult to good literature? It's probably best if you don't even compare them. I have no doubt that there is fanfiction better than the source material. Offensive? Not really. Stephanie Meyer and her fantasies are nothing to get worked up over.

Originally Posted by Narona

I still haven't read the books (I plan to), but I see it differently from the infos i gathered here and there.

When you do read them, let me know what you think, pretty please. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them and whether you think Bella is a threat to feminism and bad influence for teenage girls everywhere. ;>

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Luminisk

@synaesthetic

What you said was more or less what I was trying to get at.

But in case of those throwaway novels the fan-base is a niche at best and quickly fades into obscurity; Twilight is a plague.

Most of those throwaway novels have a fanbase that's obscure to begin with, or the fanbase is part of a larger fandom... think WH40k licensed novels... who reads those, but WH40k fans?

Really, Twilight is the only truly bad series of books I can even think of that has such an enormous fanbase. Most people realize Dan Brown sucks at writing, the same doesn't seem to be true for Meyer.

Originally Posted by blue skies

Offensive? Not really. Stephanie Meyer and her fantasies are nothing to get worked up over.

It's offensive in how bad it is. It's offensive because either Meyer's editor is so thickheaded and dense that she or he is utterly useless, or that Meyer's head is so swollen that she thinks she doesn't need an editor.

(I'm inclined to believe the latter).

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

There's nothing inherently wrong with liking a work of fiction, even a particularly bad work of fiction. I have loads of guilty pleasures, horrible trash novels that I adore and read quite often.

But I acknowledge that they are garbage spewed forth on a piece of paper. For instance, I read trashy licensed fantasy novels, usually from the Forgotten Realms license. They're not stellar examples of literary excellence, but they're fun to read, else I wouldn't keep reading them.

If someone I know wants to read Twilight and has fun reading it, that's their prerogative. It's also my prerogative to mock them repeatedly for it. First Amendment and all. God bless America. I'm not for censoring or banning anything, including bad romance/fantasy doorstoppers written for horny teenage girls and emotionally needy middle-aged women.

Trolling people for the express purpose of an amusing reaction aside, there's also nothing wrong with critically examining said piece of fiction and bringing up its bad points. If we don't judge works on their merits, then what incentive is there for authors to produce high-quality works?

Twilight is just a bad book. In my opinion, it's level of badness is so great it's almost offensive. I don't think it (or any book) should be banned. After all, making fun of Twilight is entertaining and if it didn't exist, I wouldn't be able to mercilessly troll the shit out of the hardcore fans.

Pretty much my point. I suppose logically analyzing the effects of Twilight to the general populace is well...pointless.

I will troll the hardcore fans endlessly, but I won't bug the ones who are conscious of Twilight's faults.

[Chiibi]

Erm........as a response to the whole "bad boys are hot" thing, YES, I love 'em as much as the next girl......but after hearing about how Edward treats Bella.......that was a major turn-off. Why would you want someone who tries to control EVERYTHING you do? Especially who you make friends with!? It's just so wrong....
Sure, there are plenty examples of anime/manga guys who get jealous of their girls making friends with OTHER guys but they don't go nearly as far as Edward does. A lot of times, they try to keep the girl away from this guy (usually by talking to her) for fear that this new guy has ill intentions with the girl.
And they are usually dead-on.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Luminisk

If you recall, I elborated 2 main arugments: one it sets no example as a literary piece, it actually lowers the standard; two it sets no social examples, it reinforces regressive ones.
Is required to have both for it to have the right to be popular? No, but the saga has neither.

Dozen, and dozen, and dozen of books could be accused of lowering the standards from classic authors in litterature, yet, the standards of grande littérature are still there and recognized and the people who like the "bad authors" are not a threat (nothing proves it so far). And there's no proof it influences badly every people social skills IRL, nor that it influences the steps that the feminism has made till nowadays.

Same for music.

About the social aspect, I'll reply below

My main gripe is the first one; it drags the standard of the media down. I hold literature to a higher standard than games, or movies (...or porn?) Do I find games like GTA lacking and questionable? Yes. Am I going to be angry at it? No. Why? Initially, because it belongs to a different media, you cannot compare two different medias nor hold it to the same standards. Secondly, it belongs to a media I do not subsribe to. I don't play games; well maybe Peggle and Plants vs. Zombies because it came installed on my girlfriend's laptop, but I digress. So I have no personal stake on whether or not the a certain game drags the standards of other games down, but I do care if a piece of literature drags the standards of others down.

You judge it because your little heart of bookman is hurt by its popularity, that's irrevelant to the big picture. As posted above, I read a lot, for my studies and for myself. The standards don't change just because one author who's not as good as writing as a classic monster author gets popular (monster in a "fabulous sense"), at least so far nothing proves it, and in France, the Schools will not replace the Books (that they compel you to read) by Twilight, just because Twilight got popular). And actually, I didn't read it yet, but I am sure there are dozen of books that are worse than twilight.

As for my example with videogames. You're wrong, it's part of the debate. When in France we do debates and analysis about how some things could influence the young people, we include Videogames, Movies, Books etc. in the bag. So my example is valid on the point i tried to make. We don't do half comparisons.

I really don't want to waste anymore words on what the saga has to offer socially, so I'll just leave it to my other post.

The [possible] good social side? Just like I saw it myself on the 13yo kids I talked about above, the good side is that those books, whether they are bad or good had a good effect on a good bunch of people by allowing many young people to get [more] interested in books, and possibly share their liking for that hobby between them. Most of them don't stop at "twilight" (as if all of them are just reading twilight then go chasing some Vampires on the street while cosplaying Bella. http://circleh.files.wordpress.com/2...-facepalm1.jpg ), but go in Books stores and start looking for new books, and eventually and gradually get interested in better books, and might get interested one day in grande et classique littérature. Plus, I can see people discussing stories, personalities, fictions etc. It's kind of better than people who stuck themselves in the corner without interacting on anything with other people.

Nowadays, more and more other hobbies are eating "the Books". Internet, videogames, etc. Whatever how it is bad, each thing that allows some people to get interested in books is a good thing. Sure, I'll prefer the people to enter the world of books by getting interested directly in classic authors, but that's not so simple. And instead of yelling at the twilight fans and looking down at them, you don't imagine how some are open to the idea of looking for other books if you take the time to talk to them without attacking them on their liking for Twilight as if they were just pieces of shit.

So yeah, from what I've seen here in France, I believe it can have a good effect on some people. At least this one.

Now maybe it's different in the USA, I don't know, but as you can see, you can't generalize.

Originally Posted by blue skies

When you do read them, let me know what you think, pretty please. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them and whether you think Bella is a threat to feminism and bad influence for teenage girls everywhere. ;>

I'll try to write my feedbacks to you

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by blue skies

I picked up the first novel in the series at Thanksgiving, when my 14-year-old cousin left it lying on the kitchen table. Edward and Bella forever!!!!1!!!!1!

Honestly, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There are loads of terrible young adult books out there, and yes, while Twilight is exceptional in its shittiness, I don't see how it's so much different from a lot of those. I suppose the rabid fanbase and its enormous success are the biggest things that set it apart, but I don't find any reason to get upset over it. It's like the vampire equivalent of those cheap paperback romance novels, except five times longer and with more angst than should be humanly possible.

Yes, there are a lot of terrible books like this one. How this one in particular became popular despite its abysmall quality of storytelling, writing style and character progression is what concerns me the most. Despite the fact that there are so many other books that aren't even worth reading, this one in particular became famous probably because it had Vampires who resemble faries in it, and apparently adorable warewolves as well.

Originally Posted by blue skies

If they want to be special snowflakes like Bella, it's most likely because of what you said -- they want to meet their Edward (OMG!! <3). Most girls feel the same way after they watch Cinderella. And while Ed may not be an ideal person to fall in love with, neither are a lot of men in fiction. Most Twilight fans seem to be aware that it's a book, not a script for real life. Like I've seen oh-so-many people claim in the defense of games or anime with questionable content, it's fiction. Most 13-year-old girls aren't going to consciously emulate what they read in a book, just like most 13-year-old boys aren't going to beat up prostitutes and shoot cops because GTA told them to. Young people in general may be easily influenced, but they're not going to look for an emotionally abusive jackass just because Bella Swan married one.

Well, in Cinderella, Prince Charming, or whatever his name is in that story, does not suck out your blood, beat the crap out of you after a fun night, doesn't stalk you and watch you sleep all night without you knowing it, doesn't decide who your friends should be. I mean, seriously, The Beast from "Beauty and the Beast" was more flexible and gentle than that! Imho, Ed is overrated, but I can see how girls would try to change those kinda things about him. The fact is, Bella doesn't do that. There's absolutely no progression or character development throughout the book. The only thing Bella wants is to just be with him and nothing more. They don't pick up anything new from their experiences together, and Ed remains the selfish douche that he is. The only thing I give Ed credit for is the fact that he sucks so bad nobody can beat him at it. I agree with the rest of what you said here about 13 yo girls emulating the book.

Originally Posted by blue skies

When you do read them, let me know what you think, pretty please. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them and whether you think Bella is a threat to feminism and bad influence for teenage girls everywhere. ;>

She wasn't saying it's an attack on feminism. Everyone else was.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Yes, there are a lot of terrible books like this one. How this one in particular became popular despite its abysmall quality of storytelling, writing style and character progression is what concerns me the most. Despite the fact that there are so many other books that aren't even worth reading, this one in particular became famous probably because it had Vampires who resemble faries in it, and apparently adorable warewolves as well.

Meyer described a kind of new type of vampires (that most people here hate. And since I like the Anne Rice books, I guess I might not become a fan of the Meyer's version of vampire myself). But it could have been seen as kind of a new view on it. That factor also played a role. People can get tired to read vampire stories that are for most copycat of Dracula.

Well, in Cinderella, Prince Charming, or whatever his name is in that story, does not suck out your blood, beat the crap out of you after a fun night, doesn't stalk you and watch you sleep all night without you knowing it, doesn't decide who your friends should be. I mean, seriously, The Beast from "Beauty and the Beast" was more flexible and gentle than that! Imho, Ed is overrated, but I can see how girls would try to change those kinda things about him. The fact is, Bella doesn't do that. There's absolutely no progression or character development throughout the book. The only thing Bella wants is to just be with him and nothing more. They don't pick up anything new from their experiences together, and Ed remains the selfish douche that he is. The only thing I give Ed credit for is the fact that he sucks so bad nobody can beat him at it. I agree with the rest of what you said here about 13 yo girls emulating the book.

As well as some people try to argue about it about Twilight, we could argue that Fairy Tales could have a bad effect on Real Life reality of things if we're talking about that little minority of people that "could/might" get influenced by books, movies, videogames etc. For example, they could believe all stories end up good, that evil people always lose, and that all girls are nice pure princesses, and all boys who are a little kind with them are prince charming who will protect them against anything. Therefore, we could argue that some people would possibly lower their guard when choosing a partner for relationship or even as friends, especially among the young people.

She wasn't saying it's an attack on feminism. Everyone else was.

You missed her "whether" XD