[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The red text regarding Beatrice's motives and the murders again are:
The purpose is not to make you feel fear.
It is not to get revenge on someone either.
Beato is not committing murders for pleasure.
I think what Virgilia meant was: Why did Beatrice show the murders to Battler the way she did from the meta world?

Question: Why couldn't Beatrice summon a meta world version of Battler during episode 1 when he first started denying the witch if she has absolute control? She had to wait until he died. To me, this displays a lack of control, at least until episode 1 ends.

I agree, there must be something that represents Beatrice in the real world. However, from episode 4, it cannot be a human and it must be able to kill.

That's an interesting theory that Lambda is also represented as an external power source on the gameboard. Before trying to understand what Lambda could be or what real world relationship Lambda has to Beatrice we need to know what Beatrice is first. At least we have some clues to that.

It -can- be human. Just not technically, as she IS the Ushiromiya family's furniture, after all! *Cackle**Cackle*

[Jan-Poo]

I agree, there must be something that represents Beatrice in the real world. However, from episode 4, it cannot be a human and it must be able to kill.

Depends on the part you look at.

If you take the part where Battler talks directly to Beatrice, you can't really deny the fact that Beatrice is human. It doesn't really matter if her "real name" isn't Beatrice. There isn't such a thing as a "real name", names are just labels, you can use whichever you like as long it is clear which is the subject you are referring to. The person who acts as Beatrice in the real world is Beatrice.

If you take the part of the final riddle then you are compelled to think Beatrice isn't human, Because Battler is alone. and yet Beatrice kills him.

Ther is one way to make sense out of this, using Beatrice's own words:

Names are not exclusive

Or using Bern's own words: Beatrice (the one in the metaworld) doesn't represents a single person. So maybe she represents a person, two persons, or more things that share the same name. In that case she can use "I" for anything that she represents.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Depends on the part you look at.

If you take the part where Battler talks directly to Beatrice, you can't really deny the fact that Beatrice is human. It doesn't really matter if her "real name" isn't Beatrice. There isn't such a thing as a "real name", names are just labels, you can use whichever you like as long it is clear which is the subject you are referring to. The person who acts as Beatrice in the real world is Beatrice.

If you take the part of the final riddle then you are compelled to think Beatrice isn't human, Because Battler is alone. and yet Beatrice kills him.

Ther is one way to make sense out of this, using Beatrice's own words:

Names are not exclusive

Or using Bern's own words: Beatrice (the one in the metaworld) doesn't represents a single person. So maybe she represents a person, two persons, or more things that share the same name. In that case she can use "I" for anything that she represents.

Bern was just desensitizing Beato's actions. I don't trust a thing she says.

[Jan-Poo]

Bern never lies. She might trick you or deceive you, but she never lied once.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Bern never lies. She might trick you or deceive you, but she never lied once.

I didn't say she lied, did I?

She twisted who Beatrice was so that Battler would be more motivated to quickly finish her off. Since he was incompetent, she sent in ANGE to make the twisted truth clearer.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Ther is one way to make sense out of this, using Beatrice's own words:

Names are not exclusive

That doesn't really get around the red. Beatrice said there was no one in the island but Battler, she's not Battler, and she also said no one could have interfered. So, I don't think a human could have killed him.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Beatrice (the one in the metaworld) doesn't represents a single person. So maybe she represents a person, two persons, or more things that share the same name.

Not necessarily just people. I believe Beatrice may represent many different things.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Used Can

That doesn't really get around the red. Beatrice said there was no one in the island but Battler, she's not Battler, and she also said no one could have interfered. So, I don't think a human could have killed him.


Not necessarily just people. I believe Beatrice may represent many different things.

That's what I mean to say actually. That the name Beatrice can refer to things as well. However I have another way to explain the last riddle.

[k//eternal]

What's that?

[Jan-Poo]

It's part of my "novel theory". Every game (except the first 1 maybe) is a story created by Beatrice although with set rules and with the purposes of creating alternatives scenarios so to give Battler other chances to solve the mystery.

Beatrice being the Game Master or "author" of the story has almost absolute power over the gameboard. So as the "author" she can "kill" any "character" on the gameboard at will. piece Battler was indeed the only piece left, however Beatrice tired of that game simply erased it in the end after "killing" piece Battler.

Not unlike an RPG, players can use "I" and "you" both referring to the actual player or their character. And in this case they even roleplay themselves

Of course I don't really expect this to be completely true in the end, but right now is the theory that imho explains most mysteries without acknowledging magic or postulating situations that are impossible (or close to that) to happen in the real world.

[Ithekro]

However the question becomes, after that, what is Beatrice...the one that didn't wait for Battler at the end? The one that became dust in his arms?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

However the question becomes, after that, what is Beatrice...the one that didn't wait for Battler at the end? The one that became dust in his arms?

A ruined sandcastle B)~

/shot to death

I'm sure she'll be back. People might throw a riot if Beato won't show up in an episode.

[desirebluesky]

A ruined sandcastle B)~

Spoiler for img:

i think she should be absent at least for EP6. i mean, why even 'kill' her if you're gonna ressurect her right after. <.<
i bet we're gonna see piece!Beatrice though.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

However the question becomes, after that, what is Beatrice...the one that didn't wait for Battler at the end? The one that became dust in his arms?

eh, i think she's a seperate entity on her own.

Spoiler for higurashi:

kinda like Bernkastel is thought to be born from Rika of all kakera (in higurashi).

i think it's possible that she was born from all the things called 'Beatrice' in the Rokkenjima of real world, but it's also possible she was born from a sigle human beeing using that name, and she just atributes the witch and all the other things to herself.
the meta Beatrice and all of the game-board entities called 'Beatrice' are separate, i believe.

i probably fail at getting my point across here.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

i bet we're gonna see piece!Beatrice though.

I get your point and I agree that there probably won't be a meta Beatrice in episode 6 but I guarantee that we'll see Beatrice in episode 6. Her magic world version is part of the game board and will always be there at the start of a new game regardless of her meta world version's status.

There are two questions that have completely different answers:
-What is Beatrice(magic world/game board version)?
-What is Beatrice(meta world version)?

Beatrice on the game board
I think a huge clue is that most of the people who survive to the very end of each episode die but we are never shown how they die. Whatever kills Battler in episode 4 should also be what kills everyone else at the end of the other episodes in my opinion. How did Eva survive in episode 3? Why is there a time limit to this game?

Beatrice in the meta world
Battler initially said that if not everyone accepts Beatrice's existence then she does not exist. But it seems to be the case that if someone denies Beatrice's existence then she exists. I think that's why Beatrice called him a liar before she crumbled because Battler said he would always continue to deny her existence.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Beatrice on the game board
I think a huge clue is that most of the people who survive to the very end of each episode die but we are never shown how they die. Whatever kills Battler in episode 4 should also be what kills everyone else at the end of the other episodes in my opinion. How did Eva survive in episode 3? Why is there a time limit to this game?

I've... never liked the earthquake/natural disaster explanation because it really invalidates what I feel is a big part of a, you know, murder mystery.

Assuming that's true, though, Eva survived because she fled to Kuwadorian, right?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Assuming that's true, though, Eva survived because she fled to Kuwadorian, right?

We don't know. Eva is in the mansion as events conclude in ep3, yet in ep4 we're told she was found by rescuers at Kuwadorian. So whether she went there for safety or survived whatever happened and traveled there isn't clear.

I think it's most probable that Kuwadorian is a safe place from whatever happens. Eva's most likely move once she thought that everyone was dead (she probably never found Jessica, who was likely killed by whatever happens at midnight) would likely have been to flee to the gold or Kuwadorian though. The mansion isn't safe (or at least she'd assume as much), and she knows only she (and Rosa but heh) has solved the epitaph, so it seems reasonable to guess that if she goes there she can defend herself more easily.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't like the idea of separating real Beatrice from metaBeatrice because of the promise Battler made in ep4.

If the two are one and the same, then Battler can simply kill the witch Beatrice while the real Beatrice will keep on living. In the other case, killing that Beatrice means she will die forever, or sleep forever like the epitaph says. In both cases is a bad ending :/

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

she probably never found Jessica, who was likely killed by whatever happens at midnight

She was. Jessica "went to the golden land", like the survivors usually do.

So, the question is... what kind of disaster would destroy their bodies like that? And why is Kuwadorian safe from it?

A landslide does seem the most likely, since it's so centralized, but... it doesn't make much sense given the geography of the island.

[Ithekro]

What if the "golden land" is the place where the gold is....something like a bomb shelter. If they went there, there are a few possibilities for why no one finds them

A. Tidal wave/typhoon. Covers up the entrance...they cannot get out.

B. Similar, but before they get in, resulting in them being drown and or ripped apart by debris.

C. They hide out, the investigators come and go without finding them. Now there is no communications to shore...no boat. Then what? They come out..they have the gold, shelter, some stores of food...but then what? Wait until the next boat comes? Wait until 1998?



There is no word on what happens at midnight on the 6th in Episode 5 is there? Or after the game?

[Jan-Poo]

Volcanoes can work too, since it isn't so rare for them to erupt from a side and not from the top.

There is also the bomb hypothesis or the fire hypothesis. It can be many things.
What I find really strange is the fact that the Rokkenjima Incident was never officially declared as a crime. Even so it was labeled Rokkenjima serial murder mystery by talk shows and magazines.
This happened around two years later after the discovery of the second letter in the bottle.

It seems that the public decided that the letters were true and the police covered everything up. They must have thought that Eva bribed them.

However we know that those talk shows and magazines are pure shit. And we know that the letters are not reliable.

We also know that there are corpses that were never found, even though they weren't labeled as "missing" in the TIPS like Nanjo.

What the hell could have happened?

[Ithekro]

Well if it was natural, like the typhoon, a tidal wave, or a volcano (though the last one would have made the news), the bodies could have been washed away to see, or scattered around the island. It is possible to be carried off by a hurricane and land relatively safely...it isn't common, but it has happened. Thus opens the possibility of Eva having been in the mansion, having it hit by the winds, but she's carried aloft to be deposited at or near the Kuwadorian.

It is a long shot, and right now, doesn't make all that much sense when the plot keeps its focus on the murders and they mystery.