Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What Wanderer probably meant is that the franchise doesn't follow an overarching plot planned ahead. Instead, they are spontaneously adding stuff on the go, which is quite detrimental in term of plot consistency.
Don't be ridiculous. It isn't like anyone could expect such dramatical change for a single character and plotline, unless you are either spoiled or focusing on the worst case scenario.

No one expected good ending, exept some delusional people, it's wrong show for happy end.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

In fact, it could have been fine if the movie ended as "planned" until they added that plot twist.

it would be another boring pointless sequel, ending is main reason that makes it special.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The audience is not to blame if they wanted to know what's up with a sequel, then being betrayed by unexpected changes.

Don't speak for "whole audience", a lot of people love this ending and a lot are just ok with it. As Urobuchi said in interview it will divide fanbase.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

No one expected good ending, exept some delusional people, it's wrong show for happy end.

Except that the movie could also work with the original ending planned, which actually isn't farfetched either.
Also, you don't need a straight out "bad end" either. A bittersweet ending would have been fine.

Heck, even if everything wasn't solved with the TV series, the latter actually wasn't a "bad end" either. I particularly find dubious to think "look how dark it is! the ending cannot be happy!". That's just being overly narrowminded in term of themes VS message relayed by a specific end.

it would be another boring pointless sequel, ending is main reason that makes it special.

Relying on a mere shocking factor is arguably not what can be defined as special, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people annoyed by it from a narrative perspective.

Don't speak for everyone, a lot of people love this ending and a lot are just ok with it. As Urobuchi said in interview it will divide fanbase.

Which I didn't. When I said "the audience" I meant those who expected something else. Otherwise, I would have used "everyone" and I wouldn't even use the word "if" either. So there is no need to jump on your high horses.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Except that the movie could also work with the original ending planned, which actually isn't farfetched either.
Also, you don't need a straight out "bad end" either. A bittersweet ending would have been fine.

Heck, even if everything wasn't solved with the TV series, the latter actually wasn't a "bad end" either. I particularly find dubious to think "look how dark it is! the ending cannot be happy!". That's just being overly narrowminded in term of themes VS message relayed by a specific end.

I did some mistake, I consider myself the movie's ending is happy enough, but for bittersweet ending you can read thousands of doujinshis.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

the original ending planned

It has stopped to exist since the movie was called "Rebellion". Urobuchi planned to call the movie "Revenge of incubators" or something like that. If producer and director interfered to it, than it just wasn't good enough for big and high budget movie like Rebellion. Don't forget that whole Puella Magi Madoka Magica is Shinbo's idea and character design is made by Ume Aoki. Urobuchi just wrote show scripts.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

I did some mistake, I consider myself the movie's ending is happy enough, but for bittersweet ending you can read thousands of doujinshis.

...Wait, first you tell me that it isn't the kind of show that is supposed to have a happy ending... now you are telling me this one is happy enough?

And no, doujin doesn't mean jack when it comes to established series, and thus canon.
Otherwise, with this kind of argument, you can justify ANY ending for ANY series, just because doujinshi are present (and I think thousands of people would not be happy with such statement when it comes to series having the short end of a stick).
Doujinshi don't justify sloppy ending at all, because they are, after all, mere product of amateurs/fans who have their own bias and preferences, regardless how faithful they are to the original material.

It has stopped to exist since the movie was called "Rebellion". Urobuchi planned to call the movie "Revenge of incubators" or something like that. If producer and director interfered to it, than it just wasn't good enough for big and high budget movie like Rebellion. Don't forget that whole Puella Magi Madoka Magica is Shinbo's idea and character design is made by Ume Aoki. Urobuchi just wrote show scripts.

I can't even consider Rebellion or any other Madomagi movies as "high budget" considering the content and all. And suffice to say, the very reason the ending got scrapped for another one is a glaring indication they plan to milk the franchise even more than it already was.

Also, justifying this ending just because it was shinbo's idea and the fact he is the one who had the initial concept of it is not a valid argument at all, except when it comes to business (which is dubious at best considering how strong the cashcow already is).
There is a very reason why you hire someone for the script: simply it isn't the director job to write the script, as they are here to put together everyone's else efforts, by giving a certain direction of the presentation of the given media.

Of course, there is no evidence that Urobuchi wouldn't take this path by himself already, but the very fact he didn't think of this aftermath right from the get go pretty much proves that the series took a tangent that wasn't planned to begin with.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by GDB

Based on what? All signs actually point towards them continuing the story, so I don't see where you get the idea that they have no plans to rebuild.

I meant they have no plans regarding how they're going to rebuild it. They decided to brake what I considered a very satisfying ending and now they're just gonna wing it from here.

The story simply deserved more respect than that.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I can't even consider Rebellion or any other Madomagi movies as "high budget" considering the content and all.

Rebellion grossed almost 1.7 billion yens in 30 days. It's doing much better than K-on: the movie and a bit better than Rebuild of Evangelion 1.0 (both are very high budget movies).

Not responding to anything esle, because it's pointless to argue when arguments are just your opinion.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

Rebellion grossed almost 1.7 billion yens in 30 days. It's doing much better than K-on: the movie and a bit better than Rebuild of Evangelion 1.0 (both are very high budget movies).

The definition of high budget movie is simple: that the movie required a noticeable amount of money to be produced.
What you are telling me is that the movie is a successful one, of a caliber of a blockbuster, which I didn't deny at all. What I actually said is that madomagi movies are arguably not looking like an intended high budget anime movies, the likes of Kara no Kyoukai, Disappearance of Haruhi or Redline.

I'm pretty sure I didn't use any vague terms here.

Not responding to anything esle, because it's pointless to argue when arguments are just your opinion.

Then don't present things like facts. It is plainly annoying to have people claiming "it wouldn't be interesting this way" / "it couldn't be a good ending anyway!", disregarding the actual complaints. And the complaints are strictly the narrative issues, and the plot inconsistencies.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

madomagi movies are arguably not looking like an intended high budget anime movies, the likes of Kara no Kyoukai, Disappearance of Haruhi or Redline.

Than you just can't into Shaft's original artstyle and probably haven't seen Rebellion too. It has some quality problems, but it's not relevant to budget. I don't have actual numbers of Rebellion budget money, I'll post it when I find it. I only know it's much bigger than original series got.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

Than you just can't into Shaft's original artstyle and probably haven't seen Rebellion too.

I'm not talking about style, as I'm already done with it (although a lot of poses were weirdly designed at times, i.e Madoka and Mami's Tiro duet). What I was talking about was the damn animation all around.

And haven't seen Rebellion? As of now, I'm might be one of the few non japanese who went in an actual theater to watch it, instead of relying on a crappy camrip. Do I have to put a screenshot of my ticket?
So, again, it would have been better for an actual debate if you don't call on me without actually considering the points I'm making.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm not talking about style, as I'm already done with it (although a lot of poses were weirdly designed at times, i.e Madoka and Mami's Tiro duet). What I was talking about was the damn animation all around.

I was just talking about budget at first, and you jumped on quality of animation. It also includes music, sound effects, directing, writing, advertisement, marketing and much more.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

I was just talking about budget at first, and you jumped to quality of animation. It also includes music, sound effects, directing, writing, advertisement, marketing and much more.

Wait, wait... I stated the budget in general, and -you- tell me I don't dig in shaft style nor seen the movie. As far as it goes, you were the one who brought the visual aspect of the movie. And suffice to say, I had to correct you because you claim I believe it isn't a high budget movie by saying it is because of the art style, despite my gripe was the other side of the spectrum, aka the animation.

Directing and writing aren't part of a budget, unless you really think a higher budget will lead to something "better" (and I think people will not agree with that when it comes to low budget series with good directing such like Shin Sekai Yori).

As for the rest, I already gave some points regarding music tracks before in my review, and as such it isn't like Kajiura did anything out of her comfort zone.
That being said, the core expense of a movie is primarely the visuals, and the marketing. And simply put, it isn't like marketing and such are anything interesting to us when it comes to discussion of the said movie.

Anyways, the fact it isn't a high budget looking movie is arguably not the problem. Heck, I didn't say it was a "low budget" movie either. It is above average to my perspective, but design flair doesn't mean the movie had exploited the budget to fine animation whatsoever.
Suffice to say, the major problem is how the movie just shoehorned a situation leading to an obvious sequel, with its share of inconsistencies.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Directing and writing aren't part of a budget, unless you really think a higher budget will lead to something "better" (and I think people will not agree with that when it comes to low budget series with good directing such like Shin Sekai Yori).

So Gen, Shinbo and whole magical quartet are poor hungry guys who was forced to work for free. That's interesting. And how about voice acting? Chiwa Saito made Homura's voice like she was out of her mind.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As for the rest, I already gave some points regarding music tracks before in my review, and as such it isn't like Kajiura did anything out of her comfort zone.
That being said, the core expense of a movie is primarely the visuals, and the marketing. And simply put, it isn't like marketing and such are anything interesting to us when it comes to discussion of the said movie.

I thought marketing is very important because movie is shown all over the world unlike most of other anime movies. I'm wrong again

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by woxx

So Gen, Shinbo and whole magical quartet are poor hugry guys who was forced to work for free. That's interesting. And how about voice acting? Chiwa Saito made Homura's voice like she was out of her mind.

*Sigh* you are turning that argument to an extreme it isn't even funny. When it comes to budget, a -higher- one doesn't magically turn scripting and directing to a better category, the very reason is because directing and scripting are -not- dependant of money but the actual talent of the persons in charge of that (unless you are really telling me that writing and directing are directly propotional to a series budget which is wrong to so many levels).
From a sequel perspective, hiring the same staff is a damn given, which means that the fact they had lower budget wouldn't change the fact that they would be hired for this, being the core members of the project.

Voice acting quality is NOT dependant of money either. It depends of the actual sound director who asks the seiyuu a certain voice acting depending of the needs of the said anime.
To begin with, Seiyuu are not really paid with an exceptional salary, to the contrary. And while movies obviously lead to a better salary for them, again, the increase of budget allocated to a given movie will -not- have an impact to the seiyuu performances.

That's the very reason why I brought Shin Sekai Yori as a counter example: the series is plagued by a very low budget, but the writing, directing and seiyuu performances are of the caliber of a good budget series, exactly because these factors are -not- dependant of the budget.

And just in case: I never stated they were working for free whatsoever, and again, you have to engage into a contract with them, so money is obviously involved in these aspects of the movie. However, the main point isn't the fact they are paid or not, but the fact their salary wouldn't move a hunch if the budget in its general sense was bigger or not. As in, the budget in the making of an anime series is basically what they can afford in animators and so forth. That's also the very reason why low budget series has a drastic dive of sakuga and animation, but hardly anything related to seiyuu and so forth.

I thought marketing is very important because movie is shown all over the world unlike most of other anime movies. I'm wrong again

Spare me your irony and read again what I stated: it is an obvious part of the money spent on a movie. However, that's arguably not an important matter to the audience who enjoyed or not the given movie. It is important for the producers since it is the best way to appeal as many potential viewers as possible. But past that, marketing does not have any impact to the quality of a movie, exactly because it doesn't affect its making, but only the number of attendances.

Really instead of ridiculing the points at hand, at least give it a thought or two.

[Triple_R]

Woxx isn't the only one who thinks your criticisms are a bit over-the-top, Klash. I think that as well.

I thought the movie looked perfectly fine. Mami vs. Homura was visually glorious, and the movie had a lot of beautiful scenes and nice bits of animation. SHAFT's distinctive visual style is an acquired taste, of course, but as someone who likes that taste, I saw no problem with the movie's visuals.


And honestly, if the movie had ended with Madoka just successfully collecting Homura's spirit, The End, that would have been a nice ending in some respects, but also pretty anti-climatic, in my view. It would have been almost too easy and simple a way for the full story to end, and I've honestly come to prefer the idea of a Homura that doesn't go quietly into the night.

Really, I think your narrative criticisms are a bit overstated. I don't see where any character's actions in this movie were significantly OoC. There's nothing any of these characters did that strikes me as strange for them. The exact mechanics of what Homura pulled off is, admittedly, a bit hard on one's suspension of disbelief, but I've certainly seen bigger asspulls than this in anime.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

*Sigh* you are turning that argument to an extreme it isn't even funny. When it comes to budget, a -higher- one doesn't magically turn scripting and directing to a better category, the very reason is because directing and scripting are -not- dependant of money but the actual talent of the persons in charge of that (unless you are really telling me that writing and directing are directly propotional to a series budget which is wrong to so many levels).
From a sequel perspective, hiring the same staff is a damn given, which means that the fact they had lower budget wouldn't change the fact that they would be hired for this, being the core members of the project.

Voice acting quality is NOT dependant of money either. It depends of the actual sound director who asks the seiyuu a certain voice acting depending of the needs of the said anime.
To begin with, Seiyuu are not really paid with an exceptional salary, to the contrary. And while movies obviously lead to a better salary for them, again, the increase of budget allocated to a given movie will -not- have an impact to the seiyuu performances.

You are just wrong. Madoka is not an adaptation of manga or novel like most of other anime, so quality of directing and writing is important here.
And about talent: you can tell exactly the same about any person in all kinds of job. This argument is absolutely invalid. No one will show his talent without money.

[Triple_R]

Every now and then a studio might luck out on getting a great new talent on the cheap. But wouldn't well-established somewhat famous talent cost big money? It's hard to imagine that someone like Gen Urobuchi or Mari Okada works cheap. Not with their track records. And I'm inclined to think that the more well-known and highly regarded Directors would similarly cost a bit more than your average Director.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I thought the movie looked perfectly fine. Mami vs. Homura was visually glorious, and the movie had a lot of beautiful scenes and nice bits of animation. SHAFT's distinctive visual style is an acquired taste, of course, but as someone who likes that taste, I saw no problem with the movie's visuals.

My major gripe in term of animation is the absolute lack of transitions and the like, as well as multiple instance where the design isn't completely crisp.

That said, I must remind you that I was criticizing the animation with "high budget movie" in mind, which means it was on the same category as the other series I mentioned.
Past that, the movie is above average. I never stated it was low budget.

And honestly, if the movie had ended with Madoka just successfully collecting Homura's spirit, The End, that would have been a nice ending in some respects, but also pretty anti-climatic, in my view. It would have been almost too easy and simple a way for the full story to end, and I've honestly come to prefer the idea of a Homura that doesn't go quietly into the night.

I personally had expected Homura to do something, considering... well "rebellion". But to that extent? I think it was the decision on the extreme antipod.

Really, I think your narrative criticisms are a bit overstated. I don't see where any character's actions in this movie were significantly OoC. There's nothing any of these characters did that strikes me as strange for them. The exact mechanics of what Homura pulled off is, admittedly, a bit hard on one's suspension of disbelief, but I've certainly seen bigger asspulls than this in anime.

It isn't a matter of OoC but a matter of plot consistency.
-Nagisa: basically, she was a utter waste of a character. Should she have been absent of the movie, nothing would have been lost.
-Sayaka: despite she knew what was going on, she was actually favoring the statu quo, despite it was detrimental to both Homura and Madoka. It just doesn't make sense for her to do nothing until Homura finally had the grasp of the barrier
-Homura and Madoka: past the suspension of disbelief required for the situation at hand, what's arguably unlikely was Homura's sudden ability to sever Madoka from the Law of Cycles for one, but to literally recreate the universe which is the very problem a lot of people had (which I really don't want to cycle again, considering how longwinded it became).

Really, the only characters who weren't put into a very weird role were Mami and Kyouko.

Originally Posted by woxx

You are just wrong. Madoka is not an adaptation of manga or novel like most of other anime, so quality of directing and writing is important here.
And about talent: you can tell exactly the same about anyone in all kinds of job. This argument is absolutely invalid.

Woxx, I'm starting to be really tired of this argument. What you stated was exactly what I mentioned: that the directing and writing are important. But guess what? A bigger production budget wouldn't change anything in that department (save liberty in some scenes if the movie is shorter or longer).

You argument is just invalid in the sense that you can't declare a higher budget would lead to a better writing if the same individuals were involved in the project, unless you claim both persons are slacking off it their paycheck was lower.
Of course, and that's something I never argued against: a higher budget WILL allow the production commitee to hire the cream of the directors and writers. But we are talking about a damn sequel which lead to the same staff. As in, Urobuchi and Shinbo were de facto hired for Rebellion and as in, regardless if the budget was 100 or 200 millions JPY, both would be in the boat.

And just to clear things up: I -never- stated Urobuchi and Shinbo work for peanuts. The point stands as both are working by contract as they are hired for the job. However, I consider contradicting that the writing and directing require a "higher budget" than before, despite they aren't on the same workload and workflow than animators.
So unless you tell me their contract is proportional to the budget and that their directing and writing for the TV series were inferior to the movie (obviously because the TV series had a lower budget), I stand on this point.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

My major gripe in term of animation is the absolute lack of transitions and the like, as well as multiple instance where the design isn't completely crisp.

I think what you call "lack of transitions" was by design. I think it's supposed to feel a bit off. Most of the movie is inside of a weird dream-world, after all.

As for your other complaint, I think you're really nitpicking here. I mean, did you honestly expect this to be Kara no Kyoukai?

I personally had expected Homura to do something, considering... well "rebellion".

So what else could she have done, in your view? What "middle way" is there between just letting her spirit get collected by Madokami, or "rebelling" against Madokami as she did? You seem to think there was a continuum of options open here, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

It isn't a matter of OoC but a matter of plot consistency.
-Nagisa: basically, she was a utter waste of a character. Should she have been absent of the movie, nothing would have been lost.

Nagisa was created for two reasons:

1. To create hype for the movie (which seems to have worked).
2. So Mami won't be "alone" when the canon pairings assert themselves (as they did in this movie).

No, seriously, those are the true meta-reasons behind Nagisa's creation, I suspect. She didn't do much, but she's also completely harmless. It's not like she hurt the movie, in my view.

-Sayaka: despite she knew what was going on, she was actually favoring the statu quo, despite it was detrimental to both Homura and Madoka.

I put forward a few different ideas on this several pages back, and I'd rather not re-hash that again. So I'll just keep this simple.

The entire main cast seemed to be loving the dream world, probably including Sayaka herself. That alone is reason enough to "favor the status quo", or at least to not be acting with urgency to end the status quo. So even if we put aside my more elaborate ideas here, this more basic interpretation still makes enough sense in my view.

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

what's arguably unlikely was Homura's sudden ability to sever Madoka from the Law of Cycles for one, but to literally recreate the universe which is the very problem a lot of people had (which I really don't want to cycle again, considering how longwinded it became).

And everyone is REALLY tired about this argument as critisism of the movie. There were several possible theories already about it which based on character's conversations. Even in this thread. So is it bad that they left to speculate about it? No.
It's bad for you, because you can't understand it by yourself and don't want to understand.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think what you call "lack of transitions" was by design. I think it's supposed to feel a bit off. Most of the movie is inside of a weird dream-world, after all.

As for your other complaint, I think you're really nitpicking here. I mean, did you honestly expect this to be Kara no Kyoukai?

That's the very point Triple_R (not Kara no Kyoukai-level, but something arguably better than the TV series and stuff). Considering the obvious budget Aniplex poured in this movie, I personally did expect something visually stunning, which wasn't in my books. From a usual perspective, that's nitpicking and I won't deny that. However, from a movie that required a major budget, it is just relying on its design flair, without actually capitalizing on animation, save few instances.

So what else could she have done, in your view? What "middle way" is there between just letting her spirit get collected by Madokami, or "rebelling" against Madokami as she did? You seem to think there was a continuum of options open here, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

I'm arguably not the person who could compute Shinbo and Urobuchi's perspective of the series, so the possible plot points I sorta have in mind are just impertinent to say the least.
But if you are curious, I would have been more satisfied to have Homura, Mami and Kyouko fighting Majyuu starting from the end of the TV series leading to an actual tangible sense of despair over the course of the first half of the movie before Kyuubey and friends start another plot against them (that would also answer the question how the world turned into ruins, and how humans are still living like that).
Suffice to say, an additional plot point I would have imagined that Homura's "must protect Madoka wish" leading to a very wrong timeline afterwards.

In general, I would say there were multiple options at Urobuchi's disposal (be it the Majyuu, the incubators, Homura's wish going haywire etc), but I'm not someone that can pretend which one is the better one. That would be incredibly ahead of myself.

Nagisa was created for two reasons:

1. To create hype for the movie (which seems to have worked).
2. So Mami won't be "alone" when the canon pairings assert themselves (as they did in this movie).

No, seriously, those are the true meta-reasons behind Nagisa's creation, I suspect. She didn't do much, but she's also completely harmless. It's like she hurt the movie, in my view.

I will give you that she is harmless, from its strict definition. But past that, as I said, her role is so meaningless that erasing her wouldn't hurt the plot at all, which is actually a bad point in a story.
When you have a character driven story, it hurts a lot to have a character being involved but was basically meaningless in the end.

That would be like Hitomi being dragged for the full duration of the movie: harmless but useless. That's why her very brief presence and all was fine.

Originally Posted by woxx

And everyone is REALLY tired about this argument as critisism of the movie. There were several possible theories already about it which based on character's conversations. Even in this thread. So is it bad that they left to speculate about it? No.
It's bad for you, because you can't understand it by yourself and don't want to understand.

And that's the very reason why I didn't mention it prior Triple_R questions as it would be a rehash. That said, from what you said, you seem to think I don't understand Homura's motivations, which is arguably not the case. My gripe is HOW she did that, as in her ability to go against a divinity was not foreshadowed a bit. Hell, Kyuubey did state several times in the original story that Madoka's potential is just off charts to the point she has no equal.

Homura seemly accepted Madoka's self sacrifice at first, before realizing that "normal madoka" wouldn't abandon Homura, so the latter's desire kicked in full force? I can sort of accept that (even if it really was quick when you consider her resolve and devotion at the end of the TV series to immediately switch afterwards). Still, her powers as "devil homura" are just the asspull of the movie.