(L) Ga-rei -Zero-

[careph]

It should not be forgotten that Ga-Rei Zero (GRZ) managed to create a unique mood even though it was based on the light-hearted manga. I don't think it would be impossible to maintain that style in an anime adaption of the manga.

However, I see a bigger problem with the anime's main selling point - the troubled relationship between Kagura and Yomi leading to tragedy - being repeated ad nauseam in the manga. I don't think even an experienced animation team could maintain GRZ's tension over a longer period of time without desensitizing or boring the audience.

Following up on that idea, it seems that Yomi was pretty popular in the anime. I think her death in GRZ helped to popularize her character even further. If you, however, bring her back to life in an anime like the manga did, you seriously weaken the impact of her death, and thus her popularity. If you do not bring her back, you lose one of the anime's most attractive elements and alienate her fans. Thus Yomi is best remembered as the victim of a tragedy, as somebody who should remain dead - cruel as that may be.

Another issue is the mediocre conception and poor execution of the manga. GRZ could take a lot of liberties since the events preceding the manga were only hinted at. If the animation team had to use the manga as a foundation, they would be much more limited in their range of action. A weak foundation will always destabilize a building, no matter how skilled the architects are in designing it.

Also - given that the information provided by DragoZERO is correct and the manga was canceled - it is improbable that a financial flop will even be considered as a worthy candidate for animation.

I'm with miroku2192 when I say that I'd love to see some sort of continuation to GRZ, a sequel if you will, but one that does not necessarily follow the manga. In order to maintain the unique tone of the anime, it would be impossible to bring Yomi back to life. The world of GRZ is one of merciless cruelty and realism, and does not mix well with Shounen traditions. People die left and right, and they do not return. Without Yomi however, a continuation of GRZ would not be the same - she was the crux and the soul of the whole project, as a protagonist as well as an antagonist. Consequently, I don't think I could envision a continuation to GRZ of any sort.

In my opinion, the only realistic option has already been expressed by brocko: Animating the untold story of the 4th division and their connection to the team of the SDCD (Yomi and co.) and the butterfly boy. It would solve all the problems outlined above: the anime was moderately successful and could itself serve as a sound foundation for another project; it also leaves enough room for the animation team to be creative in the production of the 'prequel to the prequel'. The unique mood of GRZ could be maintained. Yomi would still (logically) be alive and bring her popularity and fanbase with her.

If not as a whole series, then I think it could at least be realised as an OVA which would bring further benefits: high quality and unlimited gore. The brevity of the format would help to strengthen the action and emotional impact of the OVA, even though the final result will already be known to a majority of the viewers. An OVA could be used to plug plot holes and sew up loose ends and serve as a delicious dessert to a rich main course.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by brocko

They should do a prequel of the prequel

Ga Rei -4th Division-

4th Divison squad needs more love. So many characters that were never utilised beyond that starting episode

That wouldn't be such a bad idea. Maybe make it about Kagura's parents or something.

Originally Posted by careph

It should not be forgotten that Ga-Rei Zero (GRZ) managed to create a unique mood even though it was based on the light-hearted manga. I don't think it would be impossible to maintain that style in an anime adaption of the manga.

However, I see a bigger problem with the anime's main selling point - the troubled relationship between Kagura and Yomi leading to tragedy - being repeated ad nauseam in the manga. I don't think even an experienced animation team could maintain GRZ's tension over a longer period of time without desensitizing or boring the audience.

Following up on that idea, it seems that Yomi was pretty popular in the anime. I think her death in GRZ helped to popularize her character even further. If you, however, bring her back to life in an anime like the manga did, you seriously weaken the impact of her death, and thus her popularity. If you do not bring her back, you lose one of the anime's most attractive elements and alienate her fans. Thus Yomi is best remembered as the victim of a tragedy, as somebody who should remain dead - cruel as that may be.

I think the popularity of Yomi was what forced the turn of events in the final arc of the manga - where it went sour. The anime killed the manga, haha.

If not as a whole series, then I think it could at least be realised as an OVA which would bring further benefits: high quality and unlimited gore. The brevity of the format would help to strengthen the action and emotional impact of the OVA, even though the final result will already be known to a majority of the viewers. An OVA could be used to plug plot holes and sow up loose ends and serve as a delicious dessert to a rich main course.

As nice as that would be... there are a lot of other series out there that could get nice adaptations and even prequels.

[careph]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I think the popularity of Yomi was what forced the turn of events in the final arc of the manga - where it went sour. The anime killed the manga, haha.

Agreed. In the first of arc of the manga, Yomi was just a one-dimensional memory of Kagura that manifested itself as an equally shallow villain. Yomi was depicted as an element of Kagura's mind that needed to be gotten over with, eliminated and forgotten.
The anime fleshed out Yomi's character and imbued her with remarkable depth and complexity. In the end, the manga's author lacked the competence to handle the anime Yomi in a satisfying way. Ironically, the spirit that he's cited ignored his commands.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

As nice as that would be... there are a lot of other series out there that could get nice adaptations and even prequels.

Yeah, but none of them have Yomi in them. That's a disqualification by default

[Estavali]

I think Ga-Rei itself is worth an adaptation, abeit one that's heavily modified. There's enough in it to make the grimdark anime that many of us would like to see (a very good example would be the hunt for Kagura and Yomi in the last arc), once the lulz factors are trimmed out and appropriate parts of the story modified. Seigawa's problem is that he is capable of a good piece of work but he lack the discipline to resist from indulging himself with lousy ideas meant just for the lulz effect (the fact that he had originally intended to make the female lead of Tokyo ESP use her powers via flatulence strongly illustrates this point. Thank heavens his editors kept him firmly in line this time). This is imho what weakened Ga-Rei.

And I feel that should there be a Ga-Rei anime, the focus should fall on Kagura and Kensuke, with proper development on both. Yomi should remain as a strong factor for Kagura's development but otherwise she should be a supporting character and no more. To continue placing her in the centre of the stage would only kill the anime, just like how keeping Kira as the main character derailed GSD. If a Ga-Rei adaptation has to rely on Yomi for success, then it clearly means that the series itself is a failure, as this will prove that it will not incapable of keeping its audience by its own virtues (if any) and has to rely on just one popular character to survive. And in the end even the fans will get tired of seeing Yomi hog the limelight all the time, leaving only the hardcore "Yomi♥" otakus to their enjoyment. This is what I don't hope to see.

[DragoZERO]

Whoa... whoa... whoa... there was some sweet service in that manga and no one should be deprived of it!

Seriously though, they shouldn't change a thing except for the ending. I found it to be a very good series that had it's light and dark moments. So long as AIC does it again and not JC, haha.

[careph]

I can't follow your line of argumentation when you say:

Originally Posted by Estavali

And I feel that should there be a Ga-Rei anime, the focus should fall on Kagura and Kensuke, with proper development on both. Yomi should remain as a strong factor for Kagura's development but otherwise she should be a supporting character and no more.

You cannot take make Yomi a supporting character without changing the manga fundamentally:

1) Yomi's relationship with Kagura: Please do not forget that Yomi is not a Max Demian, a Greek daemon whose only mission is to lead the protagonist toward self-actualization, a mere stepping stone for human development, one of Wittgenstein's ladders that you throw away after you've climbed them.
To Kagura, Yomi will always be a human of flesh and blood (or a spirit made of whatever ), and the main focus of attention, with Kensuke coming in as a second.
In the depiction of Kagura's inner state at the climax of the Juugondou arc, you can see her forever running away - smiling and laughing outwardly - but nonetheless running away. At some point she realises that there is somebody running alongside her, and that's Kensuke. He has difficulty keeping up with her, but that doesn't matter, since to him there's only Kagura (as the eye of Satori had revealed). The reverse however is not true: To Kagura, that spot is already reserved for Yomi. Kensuke plays an increasingly important part in her life, but he'll never take Yomi's place.
If you wish to have Yomi taking a supporting role you have to either

- start the new anime where the manga ended, i.e. where all major conflicts involving Yomi are resolved, freeing up space for Kagura to tackle other issues. I don't think that would work very well for a grimdark scenario, it wouldn't be an adaptation either.

- or change Kagura completely, since the entirety of her character is built around the near-symbiotic relationship with Yomi (which I cannot deny resembles an Emil Sinclair - Max Demian connection, but reaches further).

2) Yomi's battle prowess: This point is of less depth but of no little significance. Kensuke starts out as a rookie, Yomi is a combat prodigy. There is no way he could steal her spotlight in this - for an action-oriented series - important section.
Again, in order to force Yomi into a peripheral position you would have to

- make Kensuke a lot stronger (and the whole rest of the world for that matter)

- or make Yomi weaker.

All of the above would have serious repercussions for what we know as Ga-Rei and may change the series beyond recognition.

In conclusion, I can imagine no scenario that still retains the basic integrity and logic of the original in which Yomi is a side character.

I would appreciate if you could enlighten me on a possible realisation of your concept, or point out the flaws in my reasoning.

[DragoZERO]

You should take the manga talk to the manga thread.

[careph]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

You should take the manga talk to the manga thread.

So far as I am concerned, I am discussing the possibility of continuing the anime. The manga is just the medium to be adapted, but not the topic itself.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by careph

I can't follow your line of argumentation when you say:

No worries there. I tend to make people bang their heads on the wall with my comments (and secretly enjoy watching them do so at the same time )

You cannot take make Yomi a supporting character without changing the manga fundamentally:

First I would like to quote the first sentence of my previous post, with an added emphasis:

Originally Posted by Estavali

I think Ga-Rei itself is worth an adaptation, abeit one that's heavily modified.

Please note that I understand that it is impossible to make a Ga-Rei anime without taking Zero and its influence into consideration, not without serious tweaks to parts of the story. That includes changing how Yomi is presented in the manga, which could even include removing her spectre in the first arc and have instead her shadow cast over Kagura throughout the whole story, culminating with her resurrection in the final arcs. If the manga can bend backwards to accomodate Yomi's second resurrection, I don't see why a Ga-Rei anime can't make equally major changes to improve its story.

1) Yomi's relationship with Kagura: Please do not forget that Yomi is not a Max Demian, a Greek daemon whose only mission is to lead the protagonist toward self-actualization, a mere stepping stone for human development, one of Wittgenstein's ladders that you throw away after you've climbed them.
To Kagura, Yomi will always be a human of flesh and blood (or a spirit made of whatever ), and the main focus of attention, with Kensuke coming in as a second.

In the depiction of Kagura's inner state at the climax of the Juugondou arc, you can see her forever running away - smiling and laughing outwardly - but nonetheless running away. At some point she realises that there is somebody running alongside her, and that's Kensuke. He has difficulty keeping up with her, but that doesn't matter, since to him there's only Kagura (as the eye of Satori had revealed). The reverse however is not true: To Kagura, that spot is already reserved for Yomi. Kensuke plays an increasingly important part in her life, but he'll never take Yomi's place.

It is true that Kensuke will never be what Yomi is to Kagura. However that doesn't mean he will never be as important to her as Yomi is. They are both to her humans of flesh and blood, people who have different but equally important places in her life. That Kagura was willingly to let the Kyuubi possess her in order to save Kensuke shows that he's important enough to let her make such a sacrifice. Is it really too much to ask her to love two different people who, as I;ve said, mean different things but are equally precious to her?

True, the time that Kagura spent with Yomi is far longer than that she spent with Kensuke (before Yomi's resurrection anyway), but ultimately the Yomi she knew before killing her was an idol that Yomi herself had painstakenly constructed. In other words, Kagura didn't know the real Yomi until it was too late, and can we be sure that killing her "sister" had also opened her to the real fragile person hiding behind the idol she had so admired?

In fact, the real reason why Yomi came to loom so much in Kagura's heart is due to Yomi's popularity in the anime. When she first showed up in the manga, she was no more but a plot device to give Kagura some background and to move the story with Mitogawa controlling her from the shadows. Yomi's importance only waxed after Kagura lost her memories, which means for the first half of the manga Yomi had originally meant less to her than it does to, say, Noriyuki. In other words, if Ga-Rei Zero had not elevated Yomi to her current popularity, there is a high chance that the second half of Ga-Rei would be very different from what it is now, with Yomi forever written out from the story after she died again in the first arc. In fact, if it was, say, Noriyuki that was Zero's star, the story may even have steered into a direction where he becomes a major antogonist seeking to revive Yomi, or at least to atone for his sins.

If you wish to have Yomi taking a supporting role you have to either

- start the new anime where the manga ended, i.e. where all major conflicts involving Yomi are resolved, freeing up space for Kagura to tackle other issues. I don't think that would work very well for a grimdark scenario, it wouldn't be an adaptation either.

- or change Kagura completely, since the entirety of her character is built around the near-symbiotic relationship with Yomi (which I cannot deny resembles an Emil Sinclair - Max Demian connection, but reaches further).

We have to remember that even after Yomi is reintroduced after the Juugondou arc, the main characters are still Kagura and Kensuke. Yomi, despite her swiftly growing importance, is still a secondary character, abeit one that plays a major part in the story's resolution. In other words, just as Ga-Rei Zero is Kagura and Yomi's story, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. The series needs to move on, Kagura needs to move on. To continue placing Yomi in a spot where she should have bowed out is an insult to the series, implying that it could do no more but keep on re-using a idea over and over again.

A important element in Ga-Rei, especially from the Juugondou arc onwards, is Kagura's emotional problems and the consequences. As you have so helpfully mentioned, Kagura has been running with a fake smile, due to the unreasonable suffering she and other exorcists have to bear and the weight those suffering bring unto her. And where better to resolve Kagura's emotional issues than the Ga-Rei settings, where she comes into new people who could and would help her move on and fill up the emptiness left by Yomi? Yes, once again, none of them can take Yomi's place but then again, Yomi is incapable of replacing them as well.

2) Yomi's battle prowess: This point is of less depth but of no little significance. Kensuke starts out as a rookie, Yomi is a combat prodigy. There is no way he could steal her spotlight in this - for an action-oriented series - important section.
Again, in order to force Yomi into a peripheral position you would have to

- make Kensuke a lot stronger (and the whole rest of the world for that matter)

- or make Yomi weaker.

This is indeed a problemic issue =/. Though firstly, is there a need for Kensuke to match up to Yomi alone? One of the things I like about Ga-Rei is that it has largely avoided the common shounen problem of a lone protagonist suddenly rising in power and take down a previously overwhelming opponent all by himself. The only time that Kensuke comes close to this problem was when he saved Kagura from the Kyuubi's control (by performing Kuwabara Kazuma's Dimensional Blade technique ) and even there the larger issue (the demon running amok) was resolved by Byakuei unleashing its true abilities.

As I see it, one way to tackle this problem is to keep both of them at their respective levels; in short, a powerful Yomi vs the rookie Kensuke. However, the story can and has often included other characters to help tip the scales more or less in Kensuke's favour, most noticably his trusty sidekick Poco the Tanuki. Whether a one-vs-group battle is visually more enjoyable to a one-on-one fight is, I feel, a matter of personal preference, though it would be a nice change from all the man-to-man showdown that has plagued shounen stories.

Also, there's also the yoryoku absorption ability that Kagura, Byakuei, Kensuke and Suina has. This could be expanded on and provide a possible counter to Yomi, though I agree that this ability may not mean much if it comes to a pure swordfight.

All of the above would have serious repercussions for what we know as Ga-Rei and may change the series beyond recognition.

In conclusion, I can imagine no scenario that still retains the basic integrity and logic of the original in which Yomi is a side character.

I would appreciate if you could enlighten me on a possible realisation of your concept, or point out the flaws in my reasoning.

Forgive me if I have intepreted your reasoning wrongly, but from what I see, your points here all originated from an inability to conceive a Ga-Rei without Yomi as its lead player. As I've pointed out, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. If you can just take a step back and consider it from this direction, it would be impossible to see all the possibilities that rush to present themselves before you. To continue pushing Yomi back to the lead character list would in fact be the factor that would change Ga-Rei beyond recognition.

I prefer to see the glass half-full and give Ga-Rei a chance. After all, if Yomi can be become the character she is, why should Ga-Rei itself become an anime worthy of its prequel? Of course, as I've kept pointing out, amendments are needed to weed the crippling elements out and to allow a seamless continuation from Zero to Ga-Rei, but these are in truth not a problem with minds willing to explore the possibilities. After all, any anime of Ga-Rei would be an adaption, and this means the director and storyboard have the right to change things, in this case for the better, as they see fit.

[careph]

Spoiler for spoilered for brevity:

I fear this is getting unnecessarily complicated, so please let me clarify.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Forgive me if I have intepreted your reasoning wrongly, but from what I see, your points here all originated from an inability to conceive a Ga-Rei without Yomi as its lead player.

1) My conclusions are the results of the premises outlined in my post, at least one of which still stands; they are not presuppositions. I do not think that my capacity to ratiocinate is in any way influenced by my sympathy for Yomi. While I greatly adore her character, my posts in the past few years have also shown me to be one of her most verbal critics.
2) My negation of your argument is not as strong as you interpret it to be. I merely claimed that Yomi as a side character doesn’t work. I imply nothing beyond that.
3) More generally, I regard a synthesis of the anime and the manga in the form of an adaptation as impossible (largely for pragmatic – read commercial – reasons) See my above post for further info.

Originally Posted by Estavali

It is true that Kensuke will never be what Yomi is to Kagura. However that doesn't mean he will never be as important to her as Yomi is. They are both to her humans of flesh and blood, people who have different but equally important places in her life. That Kagura was willingly to let the Kyuubi possess her in order to save Kensuke shows that he's important enough to let her make such a sacrifice. Is it really too much to ask her to love two different people who, as I;ve said, mean different things but are equally precious to her?

If Kagura is the protagonist of the manga (I think we both agree to this), and both Kensuke and Yomi are equally important to her (what you just said), then how can you place one in her immediate proximity and condemn the other to periphery? Would Kagura not logically want both close to her, and would they not as a result both be lead characters?

Originally Posted by Estavali

True, the time that Kagura spent with Yomi is far longer than that she spent with Kensuke (before Yomi's resurrection anyway), but ultimately the Yomi she knew before killing her was an idol that Yomi herself had painstakenly constructed. In other words, Kagura didn't know the real Yomi until it was too late, and can we be sure that killing her "sister" had also opened her to the real fragile person hiding behind the idol she had so admired?

Don’t underestimate Kagura. When her father on his deathbed suggested a life of Buddhistic nihilism to her, she embraced her feelings, even though she knew it meant a lot of anguish, pain and suffering. Maybe she had no choice in that matter; maybe her sensitive, emotional character dictated her path. Although for some time in denial, she eventually understood Yomi – not on a rational, but on a purely preverbal, intuitive, emotional level. It is my belief that Kagura’s love, as inspired to a large degree by Yomi, was what kept her from breaking down altogether and going insane after the horrible events of GRZ. But she loved Yomi as a human at that point, not as an idol.

Originally Posted by Estavali

In fact, the real reason why Yomi came to loom so much in Kagura's heart is due to Yomi's popularity in the anime. When she first showed up in the manga, she was no more but a plot device to give Kagura some background and to move the story with Mitogawa controlling her from the shadows. Yomi's importance only waxed after Kagura lost her memories, which means for the first half of the manga Yomi had originally meant less to her than it does to, say, Noriyuki. In other words, if Ga-Rei Zero had not elevated Yomi to her current popularity, there is a high chance that the second half of Ga-Rei would be very different from what it is now, with Yomi forever written out from the story after she died again in the first arc. In fact, if it was, say, Noriyuki that was Zero's star, the story may even have steered into a direction where he becomes a major antogonist seeking to revive Yomi, or at least to atone for his sins.

You are arguing counterfactually. The anime is a reality, not a possibility. If you stand by what you said that …

Originally Posted by Estavali

… it is impossible to make a Ga-Rei anime without taking Zero and its influence into consideration …

… the above paragraph makes no sense. Unless you factor Kagura’s profound relationship with Yomi into the anime, you cannot synthesize the two media.

Originally Posted by Estavali

We have to remember that even after Yomi is reintroduced after the Juugondou arc, the main characters are still Kagura and Kensuke. Yomi, despite her swiftly growing importance, is still a secondary character, abeit one that plays a major part in the story's resolution. In other words, just as Ga-Rei Zero is Kagura and Yomi's story, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. The series needs to move on, Kagura needs to move on. To continue placing Yomi in a spot where she should have bowed out is an insult to the series, implying that it could do no more but keep on re-using a idea over and over again.

You may have personal reasons for interpreting the story that way. But considering the anime as a prequel to and leading into the manga, it is impossible to uphold your viewpoint. And I believe that synthesis was your goal, correct me if I’m wrong.

Also, and I cannot help getting a little upset when I read that, …

Originally Posted by Estavali

Kagura needs to move on.

People do not need to move on from whom they love. It does not show maturity, just a certain shallowness of character or maybe self-deception. Even under less dramatic circumstances, grief for a beloved sibling is often something that will both burden and strengthen, but in any case accompany the bereaved throughout the rest of their lives. Now imagine all important figures in a young person’s life rolled into one, dying under utterly traumatizing circumstances, worse: being killed by said person. However, that’s not the end of the nightmare: it’s just the beginning. There’s a large gap between the end of the anime and the beginning of the manga, and it’s difficult to imagine how Kagura would have managed to survive one of the darkest periods of her life if she hadn’t embraced both her grief and her love for Yomi - the only things Kagura had left at that time. From this point of view, Kagura’s continuing connection with Yomi was what made the manga possible in the first place. Had she met Kensuke in a state of embitterment and hatred toward an unjust world, I doubt the story would have gone anywhere. Call me naïve, but I believe people should embrace what is dear to them, not get over it.
In any case, it doesn’t matter what you or I think Kagura should do or needs to do. Considering her character, she would never move on in any case. This brings me back to the second conclusion of my first point in the previous post. I see that it still stands.

Originally Posted by Estavali

A important element in Ga-Rei, especially from the Juugondou arc onwards, is Kagura's emotional problems and the consequences. As you have so helpfully mentioned, Kagura has been running with a fake smile, due to the unreasonable suffering she and other exorcists have to bear and the weight those suffering bring unto her. And where better to resolve Kagura's emotional issues than the Ga-Rei settings, where she comes into new people who could and would help her move on and fill up the emptiness left by Yomi? Yes, once again, none of them can take Yomi's place but then again, Yomi is incapable of replacing them as well.

Yomi doesn’t have to replace them, why should she have to? Wasn’t it you who said that …

Originally Posted by Estavali

It is true that Kensuke will never be what Yomi is to Kagura. However that doesn't mean he will never be as important to her as Yomi is. They are both to her humans of flesh and blood, people who have different but equally important places in her life. That Kagura was willingly to let the Kyuubi possess her in order to save Kensuke shows that he's important enough to let her make such a sacrifice. Is it really too much to ask her to love two different people who, as I;ve said, mean different things but are equally precious to her?

… is having both Yomi and Kensuke at Kagura’s side asking for too much? Rather, could it be any other way without mutilating Kagura’s character?

Originally Posted by Estavali

This is indeed a problemic issue =/. Though firstly, is there a need for Kensuke to match up to Yomi alone? One of the things I like about Ga-Rei is that it has largely avoided the common shounen problem of a lone protagonist suddenly rising in power and take down a previously overwhelming opponent all by himself. The only time that Kensuke comes close to this problem was when he saved Kagura from the Kyuubi's control (by performing Kuwabara Kazuma's Dimensional Blade technique ) and even there the larger issue (the demon running amok) was resolved by Byakuei unleashing its true abilities.

As I see it, one way to tackle this problem is to keep both of them at their respective levels; in short, a powerful Yomi vs the rookie Kensuke. However, the story can and has often included other characters to help tip the scales more or less in Kensuke's favour, most noticably his trusty sidekick Poco the Tanuki. Whether a one-vs-group battle is visually more enjoyable to a one-on-one fight is, I feel, a matter of personal preference, though it would be a nice change from all the man-to-man showdown that has plagued shounen stories.

Also, there's also the yoryoku absorption ability that Kagura, Byakuei, Kensuke and Suina has. This could be expanded on and provide a possible counter to Yomi, though I agree that this ability may not mean much if it comes to a pure swordfight.

What you say is doubtlessly correct, but if you retain Yomi’s combat superiority over Kensuke, she will always dominate in battles, and as long as she does so, she will be a central part of the action-oriented manga. This has nothing to do with my affection, it’s just logic.

Originally Posted by Estavali

As I've pointed out, Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story. If you can just take a step back and consider it from this direction, it would be impossible to see all the possibilities that rush to present themselves before you. To continue pushing Yomi back to the lead character list would in fact be the factor that would change Ga-Rei beyond recognition.

I take it you meant “to not see all the possibilities”. So far, I’ve only seen one rush at me, namely …

Originally Posted by Estavali

changing how Yomi is presented in the manga, which could even include removing her spectre in the first arc and have instead her shadow cast over Kagura throughout the whole story, culminating with her resurrection in the final arcs. If the manga can bend backwards to accomodate Yomi's second resurrection, I don't see why a Ga-Rei anime can't make equally major changes to improve its story.

This sounds interesting, but would make Yomi even more central that she already is. All the conflicts leading up to her resurrection would just be periods of preparation, Kagura’s attempts to come to terms with herself before the great climax. In short: minor happenings leading up the major event, with the story coming full circle when resolving the conflict with Yomi; the relationship of the fated sisters as the alpha and the omega of Ga-Rei. I thought that’s precisely what you wanted to avoid?

[Estavali]

My apologies for contributing to what may be unneccessary complications. I think I can grasp your reasoning now somewhat and I agree on many of the points you have raised. Nonetheless I think it is best that I clarify my PoV as well.

1) Despite the difference in atmosphere, Ga-Rei Zero is written with the manga as a basis and as such it is not impossible to follow on from there. A Ga-Rei anime, following Zero's lead, would be one where the manga story is updated with the background provided by Zero, where the excessive lulz elements (which imho is the major factor contributing to the manga's lower status compared to Zero) are weeded out to streamline and intensify the tension, etc. In short, Ga-Rei's story (modified), Zero's style.

2) I accept that Yomi should be no less than a major character. It's just I feel the main focus of a Ga-Rei anime should be at least on Kagura, Yomi and Kensuke, without leaving out any one of them. It's true that Yomi exerts a strong influence in Kagura's life; however Ga-Rei is essentially told through Kagura and Kensuke, whose actions influences each other (though admittably Kensuke may have a weaker influence compared to Yomi's, especially in the final arcs) and as such neither should be undermined.

Now, onwards to the unenviable task of dissecting the cake...

Spoiler for Mindless rambling:

Originally Posted by careph

1) My conclusions are the results of the premises outlined in my post, at least one of which still stands; they are not presuppositions. I do not think that my capacity to ratiocinate is in any way influenced by my sympathy for Yomi. While I greatly adore her character, my posts in the past few years have also shown me to be one of her most verbal critics.
2) My negation of your argument is not as strong as you interpret it to be. I merely claimed that Yomi as a side character doesn’t work. I imply nothing beyond that.
3) More generally, I regard a synthesis of the anime and the manga in the form of an adaptation as impossible (largely for pragmatic – read commercial – reasons) See my above post for further info.

My apologies if I have misread you. It's just that I can't understand why you continued to proclaim the impossibility of a Ga-Rei anime even with the idea of adapting the manga to work with Zero's story and atmosphere. "Is this really such an out-of-the-world idea?" "If Ga-Rei can inspire Ga-rei Zero despite their differences, why can't animators work with the original to bring the gold out from the mud?"

I also misunderstood your position about Yomi's role. To me, you seemed to say that only Yomi is necessary to support Kagura throughout the story; the others don't matter. And that despite the introduction of Kensuke as the new main character, the focus should still be on Yomi and Kagura, defeating the purpose of putting him there in the first place.

If Kagura is the protagonist of the manga (I think we both agree to this), and both Kensuke and Yomi are equally important to her (what you just said), then how can you place one in her immediate proximity and condemn the other to periphery? Would Kagura not logically want both close to her, and would they not as a result both be lead characters?

Agreed.

Don’t underestimate Kagura. When her father on his deathbed suggested a life of Buddhistic nihilism to her, she embraced her feelings, even though she knew it meant a lot of anguish, pain and suffering. Maybe she had no choice in that matter; maybe her sensitive, emotional character dictated her path. Although for some time in denial, she eventually understood Yomi – not on a rational, but on a purely preverbal, intuitive, emotional level. It is my belief that Kagura’s love, as inspired to a large degree by Yomi, was what kept her from breaking down altogether and going insane after the horrible events of GRZ. But she loved Yomi as a human at that point, not as an idol.

Agreed. Though I still do wonder if her "emotional buffer" is largely built on the ideal Yomi rather than the real person with both her beautiful and ugly sides now apparent to Kagura.

You are arguing counterfactually. The anime is a reality, not a possibility. If you stand by what you said that …

What I mean to say is that I strongly suspect that Zero and Yomi's popularity had led (maybe even forced) Segawa to reintroduce Yomi in the final arcs and with a central role to the second half of the story. Isn't it curious that he killed Yomi off only to ressurect her and conveniently bind her to a person that looks absolutely like her?

… the above paragraph makes no sense. Unless you factor Kagura’s profound relationship with Yomi into the anime, you cannot synthesize the two media.

I do wish you have included the entire paragraph, or at least the sentence in full here:

Originally Posted by Estavali

Please note that I understand that it is impossible to make a Ga-Rei anime without taking Zero and its influence into consideration, not without serious tweaks to parts of the story.

The "serious tweaks to parts of the story" would of course factor in "Kagura’s profound relationship with Yomi", and more where needed.

You may have personal reasons for interpreting the story that way. But considering the anime as a prequel to and leading into the manga, it is impossible to uphold your viewpoint. And I believe that synthesis was your goal, correct me if I’m wrong.

I don't deny that I wrote that paragraph (or rather the whole of my previous post ) with a certain amount of irritation

However I don't understand why my viewpoint of setting Ga-Rei as Kagura and Kensuke's story can't hold. Or did you mean to say that a Ga-Rei anime would not be plausible if Yomi's weight on its story is severely reduced? If so, I agree with this point. And yes, synthesis is my goal from my first post to this.

Also, and I cannot help getting a little upset when I read that, …

People do not need to move on from whom they love. It does not show maturity, just a certain shallowness of character or maybe self-deception. Even under less dramatic circumstances, grief for a beloved sibling is often something that will both burden and strengthen, but in any case accompany the bereaved throughout the rest of their lives. Now imagine all important figures in a young person’s life rolled into one, dying under utterly traumatizing circumstances, worse: being killed by said person. However, that’s not the end of the nightmare: it’s just the beginning. There’s a large gap between the end of the anime and the beginning of the manga, and it’s difficult to imagine how Kagura would have managed to survive one of the darkest periods of her life if she hadn’t embraced both her grief and her love for Yomi - the only things Kagura had left at that time. From this point of view, Kagura’s continuing connection with Yomi was what made the manga possible in the first place. Had she met Kensuke in a state of embitterment and hatred toward an unjust world, I doubt the story would have gone anywhere. Call me naïve, but I believe people should embrace what is dear to them, not get over it.
In any case, it doesn’t matter what you or I think Kagura should do or needs to do. Considering her character, she would never move on in any case. This brings me back to the second conclusion of my first point in the previous post. I see that it still stands.

Hmmm, I see.

Yomi doesn’t have to replace them, why should she have to? Wasn’t it you who said that …

… is having both Yomi and Kensuke at Kagura’s side asking for too much? Rather, could it be any other way without mutilating Kagura’s character?

In regards to this and the other paragraph that you have quoted, I was under the understanding that you were advocating that Yomi should have a monopoly over Kagura, instead of being one of the many supporting her. I see I probably have misunderstood.

What you say is doubtlessly correct, but if you retain Yomi’s combat superiority over Kensuke, she will always dominate in battles, and as long as she does so, she will be a central part of the action-oriented manga. This has nothing to do with my affection, it’s just logic.

Alas, the difference in strength is a sticky issue.

I take it you meant “to not see all the possibilities”. So far, I’ve only seen one rush at me, namely …

This sounds interesting, but would make Yomi even more central that she already is. All the conflicts leading up to her resurrection would just be periods of preparation, Kagura’s attempts to come to terms with herself before the great climax. In short: minor happenings leading up the major event, with the story coming full circle when resolving the conflict with Yomi; the relationship of the fated sisters as the alpha and the omega of Ga-Rei. I thought that’s precisely what you wanted to avoid?

What I wish not to see is Yomi hogging the limelight, overshadowing both Kensuke (fine...) and Kagura (bad idea). Like what we probably both agree on, Ga-Rei is Kagura's story and I'm uneasy with the thought of having Yomi snatch that role from her. That Kagura's portrayal in Zero wasn't really well-liked doesn't help too.

I wrote the suggestion with the idea of condensing Yomi's role to the final arc, as I felt that there's no point introducing her physically twice (especially since her first coming was rather a rather one-dimensional character) and she would have a stronger impact if her comings restricted to just once, in the final stage.

However, after going back to flip through the first arc, I'm quite inclined to give up on that idea. A better alternative may be to include and highlight her inner conflict, her love for Kagura struggling with the amplified jealousy of her.

Thank you for reading =w=

[careph]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Thank you for reading =w=

It’s a pleasure to converse with you, so thank you for writing

Spoiler:

Now that we’ve reached an agreement on the contents of what you summed up in “2)”, we can return to the issues in your “1)”. It may be laziness – or even drought of thought - but I will take the liberty to quote extensively from one of my earlier posts.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Despite the difference in atmosphere, Ga-Rei Zero is written with the manga as a basis and as such it is not impossible to follow on from there.

Originally Posted by Estavali

"If Ga-Rei can inspire Ga-rei Zero despite their differences, why can't animators work with the original to bring the gold out from the mud?"

Because of ...

Originally Posted by careph

... the mediocre conception and poor execution of the manga. GRZ could take a lot of liberties since the events preceding the manga were only hinted at. If the animation team had to use the manga as a foundation, they would be much more limited in their range of action. A weak foundation will always destabilize a building, no matter how skilled the architects are in designing it.

I don't think it would suffice just to take out the hilarity in the manga. Also, there were quite a few people who liked precisely what you dislike so much, DragoZERO for instance.

Originally Posted by Estavali

A Ga-Rei anime, following Zero's lead, would be one where the manga story is updated with the background provided by Zero, where the excessive lulz elements (which imho is the major factor contributing to the manga's lower status compared to Zero) are weeded out to streamline and intensify the tension, etc. In short, Ga-Rei's story (modified), Zero's style.

Originally Posted by careph

I see a big[...] problem with the anime's main selling point - the troubled relationship between Kagura and Yomi leading to tragedy - being repeated ad nauseam in the manga. I don't think even an experienced animation team could maintain GRZ's tension over a longer period of time without desensitizing or boring the audience.

Besides, GRZ's "style" is more than the mood created by the visual and musical composition. While the music and animation style, the colours, the setting, the voice acting, etc. contributed to the overall dark atmosphere of the anime, it is the logic inherent in the medium – the laws of nature if you will – that made GRZ such a moving series. “Style” in a broader sense encompasses the mechanics and rules of the universe. And as I remarked earlier…

Originally Posted by careph

In order to maintain the unique tone of the anime, it would be impossible to bring Yomi back to life. The world of GRZ is one of merciless cruelty and realism, and does not mix well with Shounen traditions. People die left and right, and they do not return.

Other than as mindless zombies that are quickly dispatched, contributing to the cynical undertone that is one of GRZ's hallmarks.

Originally Posted by Estavali

My apologies if I have misread you. It's just that I can't understand why you continued to proclaim the impossibility of a Ga-Rei anime even with the idea of adapting the manga to work with Zero's story and atmosphere. "Is this really such an out-of-the-world idea?"

I think it is.

Originally Posted by careph

… it seems that Yomi was pretty popular in the anime. I think her tragic death in GRZ helped to popularize her character even further. If you, however, bring her back to life in an anime like the manga did, you seriously weaken the impact of her death, and thus her popularity.

In addition, you also threaten the integrity of GRZ’s world. A grimdark scenario that is not coherent and banishes demons to bottomless hells only to bring them back on demand is not very convincing and takes the bite out of the tragedy. If an anime adaptation seeks to maintain Zero’s style, it must forego reintroducing Yomi. However …

Originally Posted by careph

If you do not bring her back, you lose one of the anime's most attractive elements and alienate her fans.

Add to that Kagura’s poor reception in the anime, and her relatively weak position as a protagonist, and you end up with little that could serve as a foundation for a competent production team to weave its magic out of.

Whichever way I look at it, whichever option I explore, I always arrive at a dilemma.
When you say …

Originally Posted by Estavali

… however Ga-Rei is essentially told through Kagura and Kensuke, whose actions influences each other…

… or even stronger (and boldfaced and underlined too!) …

Originally Posted by Estavali

Ga-Rei is Kagura and Kensuke's story

… I think I can identify yet another issue that may be difficult to resolve. Following a debate several years back, it had been proposed that instead of seeing either Yomi or Kagura as the protagonist of the anime, it would be wiser to say that their relationship is the crux of the series. At first the idea seems outlandish, since many people feel inclined to assume that a relationship is nothing but the sum of its constituents, i.e. the people involved. Mathematically: 1 (Kagura) + 1 (Yomi) = 2 (relationship).
If, however, you think of a relationship as something that goes beyond the contributions of either party, as an entity in and of itself, you will find that you can resolve a central problem: The fact that neither Kagura nor Yomi on their own could adequately perform the role of protagonist. Just like Ikebukuro is not just a location in Durarara!!, but an actual character, I think you can legitimately claim that the relationship between Kagura and Yomi is the real protagonist of GRZ.
I'm sure you can already see where I’m going with this, because the same principle applies to Ga-Rei: it is not either Kagura or Kensuke, but their interaction, their relationship that serves as the pivotal point of the manga.
Now if the relationship between Kagura and Yomi is what made the anime work, and the connection between Kagura and Kensuke fuelled the manga, then we are trapped in yet another dilemma. We are forced to decide between focusing on an integral part of GRZ that would likely overshadow the manga, or tone down GRZ’s influence to focus on how the manga tells its story.
Taking this into consideration, it may have been rash to dismiss your idea of moving Yomi’s return to the final arc. Your approach would allow the adaptation to shift the focus between the two relationships quite elegantly, first on Kagura and Kensuke, later on Kagura and Yomi.

Originally Posted by Estavali

What I wish not to see is Yomi hogging the limelight, overshadowing both Kensuke (fine...) and Kagura (bad idea). Like what we probably both agree on, Ga-Rei is Kagura's story and I'm uneasy with the thought of having Yomi snatch that role from her.

I think you can rest assured here: that won’t happen in any case.

Originally Posted by Estavali

I also misunderstood your position about Yomi's role. To me, you seemed to say that only Yomi is necessary to support Kagura throughout the story; the others don't matter. And that despite the introduction of Kensuke as the new main character, the focus should still be on Yomi and Kagura, defeating the purpose of putting him there in the first place.

Thank you for your honesty and elaboration. It’s interesting how easily miscommunication can happen, and fault can usually be found on both sides.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Agreed. Though I still do wonder if her "emotional buffer" is largely built on the ideal Yomi rather than the real person with both her beautiful and ugly sides now apparent to Kagura.

If you can find the time, re-watch episodes eleven and twelve of GRZ, keeping in mind what I said about Kagura’s emotional stance. The first encounter between Kagura and Yomi in the woods will be especially relevant, as will Kagura’s reaction to Noriyuki’s claim that “this is not the Yomi we knew”.

Originally Posted by Estavali

What I mean to say is that I strongly suspect that Zero and Yomi's popularity had led (maybe even forced) Segawa to reintroduce Yomi in the final arcs and with a central role to the second half of the story. Isn't it curious that he killed Yomi off only to ressurect her and conveniently bind her to a person that looks absolutely like her?

There’s much reason in that argument, and I think it is not improbable things went that way. However, I have also read somebody argue quite convincingly that Segawa had planned Yomi’s (second) return from the beginning, long before the anime was produced. He/she quoted several passages from the manga that all point in that direction. Interesting as such interpretations may be, in the end they’re speculation.

Originally Posted by Estavali

I do wish you have included the entire paragraph, or at least the sentence in full here

And I wish that you didn’t rip apart two sections connected by dots in my post so that they lose their original meaning. Consensus would be much easier to achieve that way

[careph]

Spoiler for more goodies:

Spoiler for NSFW:

[hyperborealis]

Careph, thank you--for pictures and especially for intelligent discussion. I love this show, and am delighted it has the quality of viewership it deserves.

[germanturkey]

so, a bit late to the party. i'm starting to watch this, and i'm bracing myself for the inevitable train wreck. currently on ep 5, and i'm slowing my pace of watching because i don't want something to happen to Yomi. she's so likable.

[careph]

Heh, I can understand that feeling.

Just make sure not to start browsing this thread, else you will be spoiled badly

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

so, a bit late to the party. i'm starting to watch this, and i'm bracing myself for the inevitable train wreck. currently on ep 5, and i'm slowing my pace of watching because i don't want something to happen to Yomi. she's so likable.

It was the same episode that wanted me to slow down too. Those were the good old days.

[Ravagerblade]

Yomi totally needs a redemption, if for all her troubles she gets kicked around like a butt monkey/fates bitch. Forgive me if I'm bias towards Yomi it's what I get for watching Zero first before the manga. I would have rather of read it being different than how it was for the most part.

[Ravagerblade]

And to add onto that Screw Nori damn ferret boy, YOU NEVER deserved Yomi, no idea how she could like him, he's pathetic. well I pretty much have him and ken on the same boat.

[careph]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Yomi totally needs a redemption, if for all her troubles she gets kicked around like a butt monkey/fates bitch. Forgive me if I'm bias towards Yomi it's what I get for watching Zero first before the manga. I would have rather of read it being different than how it was for the most part.

It's interesting that you feel Yomi needs redemption for "all her troubles", when some might say she has to redeem herself for committing so many atrocities.
Perhaps all the good things she had done for others were balanced by all the bad things she did later on? Perhaps the two are incommensurable and stand side by side as a kind of double injustice: Injustice committed against her by others as well as injustice she committed against others ...