Abortion right or wrong

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Irrelevant. This is the world we live in; we cannot magically transform it into something else.

If a teen gives birth in America, there is an extremely high likelihood that baby will have a poor life. They have a much higher chance than normal to wind up a criminal, which is a drain on the nation's resources in more ways than one.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need abortions, because nobody would ever have "accidental babies" and nobody would ever over-reproduce and populations would always stay within our ability to maintain them.

This is not a perfect world.

It's relevant, since abortion does the same thing: it "magically" transform society into a place where irresponsible deeds are in fact overlooked. The fact that people focus only on the abortion issue means they're also contributing to the irresponsibility of society.

That's partly why I'm cynical: Almost every human being is a hypocrite, since they avoid the core issue and fool around with the fringes.

[SaintessHeart]

Well then abortion should be on the premise of physical and mental capability. And foetus showing signs of disability and handicap should be aborted to prevent resource wastage in society.

[synaesthetic]

It's clear we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Well then abortion should be on the premise of physical and mental capability. And foetus showing signs of disability and handicap should be aborted to prevent resource wastage in society.

That could be logical. It could also be eugenics.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

It's clear we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Sure. Just know I believe in striking at the core instead of the general nibbling at the fringe, and that what you know isn't everything:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The only pro-life women I know are the cowed, browbeaten, doormat Stockholm Syndrome religious "good little wifey" types.

[synaesthetic]

That's just a pipe dream, though. Humanity will never be perfect. We will never have a flawless utopia. Our world will never stop being fucked up.

My view is of the realist, how to deal with the problems that exist in the world that exists, rather than attempting to set unachievable goals and then condemn people for being unable to meet your impossible standards.

Humanity is a fucked-up species and we'll never be anything but.

[Sumeragi]

The US can always use that "absurdly inflated military budget", don't you think?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The US can always use that "absurdly inflated military budget", don't you think?

Don't I wish.

[RRW]

what is flawless utopia anyway. you do what you want without interference?

[aohige]

No, because Utopia is defined as a perfect society, not society where every desire of an individual is served.

Meaning, Utopia need not necessarily be an ideal environment for all individual, it just needs to be perfect as a society.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by aohige

No, because Utopia is defined as a perfect society, not society where every desire of an individual is served.

Meaning, Utopia need not necessarily be an ideal environment for all individual, it just needs to be perfect as a society.

Utopias are impossible to maintain.

Either resources run out due to greed, or curiosity due to boredom fuels unrest.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

The only argument I don't accept. That is just irresponsibility.

Heck, most of the time abortion is done due to irresponsible behavior. I can't really get why people are so willing to overlook that.

That bolded line is subjective fantasy with no stats to back it up.

Sorry, Sumeragi, but rather than striking at the core, that bolded part tells me you are missing the entire page. Try that with a bunch of medical people around and see if you can get out of the room without being laughed out or scalped.

Yeah, it'd be nice if we didn't need abortions. It would be nice if all the other paths were available. It'd also be nice to have pink unicorns as part of a perfect society but the infrastructure isn't there so we'll punish those least able to affect change.

I'll stand by my assertion that in most cases, peeling the superficial away and all that seems to be left is the notion that people should be punished for having sex without intent to procreate.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vexx

That bolded line is subjective fantasy with no stats to back it up.

Sorry, Sumeragi, but rather than striking at the core, that bolded part tells me you are missing the entire page. Try that with a bunch of medical people around and see if you can get out of the room without being laughed out or scalped.

Sure, because they'll be laughing at you, or at least in East Asia. Why don't you try bringing up some numbers? Try reading this for starters for the situation in the US.

Originally Posted by Vexx

They should catch horrible diseases or forcibly have children. No pills, no education, no exceptions if the condom breaks or the birth control pill has a statistical failure rate. Even ectopic pregnancies (almost certain death) or other risky medical conditions aren't acceptable. Even better the women should just shut up and do what the men demand. There's some old books that say so.

Contraceptives exist for a reason. There are the emergency pills. Thereare also the risky medical conditions which require abortion. The problem is, how many abortions are done because the first two haven't been done or done improperly and the third condition does not exist? As it turns out, that's the majority.


Basically, all I'm seeing is a biased view of the situation in order to slam those who disagree with you. I know you're intelligent enough to actually go out and research, so perhaps you should try it before insulting others without knowing what is going on.

[synaesthetic]

I'm pretty sure that even the most flawless and perfect utopia cannot stop teenagers from being stupid, short of uploading a preset behavioral programming, and then we'd stop being humans and just be biological robots.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I'm pretty sure that even the most flawless and perfect utopia cannot stop teenagers from being stupid, short of uploading a preset behavioral programming, and then we'd stop being humans and just be biological robots.

That is nature too. To have a small bunch of people make mistakes and set an example for the rest of us to avoid.

[synaesthetic]

If you really want to reduce the necessity of abortion, improve education. Make science-based sex education mandatory for every student, not something they can be pulled out of for religious objections. Let the states know in no uncertain terms that "abstinence-only education" is not sufficient.

Then stop, stop, STOP trying to limit access to contraceptives.

Do that and I bet you'll see abortions go down sharply.

[MeoTwister5]

Here in the Philippines we're seeing a growing number of reproductive age women who have started taking contraceptive pills both as a form of maintenance and the typical morning after Levonorgestrel pills.

For patient information, I'd just point interested parties to the growing use of intramuscular depot injections of contraceptives done monthly to bimonthly. It's also worth noting that contraceptives have become much cheaper in the last 10 years, but sometimes still not cheap enough for developing countries.

What scares me personally is that some groups, not only here but worldwide, are actually demanding that doctors be legally compelled to perform abortions. Right now the ethical stand is that a doctor has the option to decline performing an abortion if it goes against his own personal code of ethics and thereby required to pass on the task to another willing doctor. If the time comes when, legally, a doctor HAS to perform an abortion whether he likes to or not... well...

I'm not an OB, and I'm not trained to perform abortions, but my personal stand as a practitioner is absolute NO to elective abortions. If I ever have to, only abortions with a real and legitimate medical indication to perform one. If they want to fuck 24/7 without the risk of pregnancy, they better handle for precautions rather than outcomes, because potential human lives are in the latter.

Of course they could always medically induce abortion by downing say a few tabs of Misoprostol, but hey their choice if they want to possibly bleed to death in the process.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

If you really want to reduce the necessity of abortion, improve education. Make science-based sex education mandatory for every student, not something they can be pulled out of for religious objections. Let the states know in no uncertain terms that "abstinence-only education" is not sufficient.

Then stop, stop, STOP trying to limit access to contraceptives.

Do that and I bet you'll see abortions go down sharply.

Not all medication is complication proof, less being said for self-medication. There are people who screw up the process of even the most basic contraception, while some people have their bodies reject it (and in certain cases, violently).

If contraceptives is all about IUD and condoms, it would be dangerous to populations because STDs cannot be prevented by any contraception, which only provides a slowdown effect. It gives an incentive for people to return to their feral breeding practices without a fear of pregnancy.

In short, I would believe that there has to be something that is in between. Neither way is the way to go without some logic and understanding of usages and practices from both sides.