One Piece - Chapter 739 [manga]

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by marvelB

As far as Diamante goes, I'm actually pretty interested in how he partnered with Doflamingo in the first place. As far as I can see, Dofla seems to place the most trust in him, next to Vergo (putting him in charge of the coliseum, entrusting the fire fruit to him, apparently tasking him with the murder of Rebecca's mother, etc.). Actually, I'm interested in Dofla's history with ALL his top officers, in general. Maybe they were all former nobles like him, as well? I hope we learn more about his past with them soon....

I do not think Doflamingo is treating him any more special than his other top Agents. Trebol is entrusted with guarding Sugar who is effectively the key to DD's entire kingdom in Dressrosa; not to mention that Trebol also over looks the factory and docks where all his illegal business is done. I feel like Trebol might have the most important job of the three.

Pica is entrusted with guarding the Palace... though while that is important, part of that would be because his devil fruit makes him perfect for the job.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by philip72

I'm thinking more like they were trusted household staff (but not slaves), majordomo's, secretaries, valets, butlers, nannies, etcetera... who followed Doflamingo after his fall from grace.

i think Dolf is slumming not exile.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Yea, that would be interesting. Mind you, we don't usually see the back stories of the villains; New fishman pirates being the exception.

I feel like we will probably get more info on them... I mean one thing that's particularly interesting is that Doflamingo does seem to care about his family to a certain degree and they care about him. Though he felt it was necessary he seemed somewhat regretful for having to sacrifice Vergo and Monet; I recall him being concerned for Buffalo and Baby 5; and he paused when Law threatened Jora. Seems like Doflamingo doesn't view his family as a bunch of disposable minions; there's likely a reason why he referrers to his band as family... his inner circle of pirates are closer than most villainous pirates we meet and i think we will probably find out why that is. Most minions are not so ready to sacrifice themselves for their villainous masters.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I do not think Doflamingo is treating him any more special than his other top Agents. Trebol is entrusted with guarding Sugar who is effectively the key to DD's entire kingdom in Dressrosa; not to mention that Trebol also over looks the factory and docks where all his illegal business is done. I feel like Trebol might have the most important job of the three.

Well, you certainly do have a good point about Trebol. But I guess I considered Diamante to be the closest to Dofla on a personal level since he's the one we've seen the warlord interacting with the most out of the three (that, and he's the officer who's had the most screentime). So I while Trebol could be the most trusted officer in terms of business (managing the factory/docks while keeping watch on Sugar), Diamante might be the most trusted on a personal level, I guess (killing Rebecca's mother, entrusted with the coliseum and luring Luffy into a trap with Ace's fruit). Pica.... I can't really say anything about at the moment since we barely know anything about him aside from his powers.


.....though in the end, I still think that Vergo is Dofla's top confident overall, considering how he was entrusted with acting as a government mole for so many years. At least, that's my take on things, anyway.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I feel like we will probably get more info on them... I mean one thing that's particularly interesting is that Doflamingo does seem to care about his family to a certain degree and they care about him. Though he felt it was necessary he seemed somewhat regretful for having to sacrifice Vergo and Monet; I recall him being concerned for Buffalo and Baby 5; and he paused when Law threatened Jora. Seems like Doflamingo doesn't view his family as a bunch of disposable minions; there's likely a reason why he referrers to his band as family... his inner circle of pirates are closer than most villainous pirates we meet and i think we will probably find out why that is. Most minions are not so ready to sacrifice themselves for their villainous masters.

Yep, pretty much agree with everything you said here, and this is a large part of the reason why I'm interested in learning more about Dofla's past in the first place. As cruel and calculating as he may be, he really does seem to show genuine care for his top subordinates. I mean, there has to be a good reason why he gained so much respect from both civilians and rogues alike. I'm particularly interested in why a thug like Bellamy looks up to him so much.....

Originally Posted by philip72

I'm thinking more like they were trusted household staff (but not slaves), majordomo's, secretaries, valets, butlers, nannies, etcetera... who followed Doflamingo after his fall from grace.

That's entirely possible, though I personally think it would be more interesting if those guys were all from noble families themselves. They don't necessarily have to be related to the celestial dragons either, just "regular" aristocratic families. They'd basically be like the "evil" versions of Sabo, which is why I like the idea so much. They'd be people who've forsaken their noble heritage for some reason or another. At least, that much seems to be clear in Doflamingo's case.....

[marvelB]

^Except that his point is that we don't usually see that sort of camaraderie between villainous pirate crews. The Straw-Hat and Whitebeard crews who help protect islands from evil elements wouldn't exactly count as evil themselves, would they?


I mean heck, to use an easy example, there's a whole world of difference between a captain like Doflamingo (who actually shows trust in his subordinates), and one like Crocodile (who basically sees anyone under him as tools), despite the both of them being among the more cruel and calculating pirates.

[danielevo]

Guys, i think its not good to underestimate bartolomeo power, he strong..
And for the final match, it will be turn into chaos after usop and robin success in SOP strategy..

[articuzwolf]

I couldn't see Sugar to be knocked out anytime soon...

not at least until Luffy kick some flamingo ass

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Well, good and bad mostly depends on the point of view.

True, but Oda usually isn't the most subtle when it comes to depicting those who are good and evil.

[Hidfe]

Originally Posted by marvelB

True, but Oda usually isn't the most subtle when it comes to depicting those who are good and evil.

I would say One Piece has an incredible amount of "grey" characters.

For example Luffy. Is he good or bad? I mean he helped a lot of criminals(probably murders and rapists under them) escape Impel Down, one who tried to overthrow a country and tried to kill millions of people.

Fujitora. Is he good or evil? I mean he is helping Doflamingo even though he seems to know what he did and does to the country.

In general all the Admirals are "grey". I mean all of them are only just doing their jobs and none of them is seeing themselfes as "evil"

[paradox13]

Noone sees themselves as 'evil' in real life either. Not even Hitler. People have an extraordinary capacity for rationalizing what they do.

I don't think Akainu or Aokiji are 'grey' at all.

[Hidfe]

Originally Posted by paradox13

I don't think Akainu or Aokiji are 'grey' at all.

Aokiji is good or bad in your point of view? I guess good but you should remember that he killed his best friend, participated in a buster call and damned a little girl to one of the hardest life’s imaginable.

Saul was one of the “good” ones. Kuzan not so much. He is probably the “greyest” of the Admirals.

Akainu is a hard sell but one could argue that he does what he does to protect the world. He killed hundreds of civilian but from his point of view he saved millions because one of those civilians might have had a nuclear code and would damn the world to a big war and cost millions of lives. He executed deserters but this is something common in every military because you cannot have soldiers running away from the battlefield in the middle of war. It could cost the war. He killed Ace but Ace was seen (from the navy and WORLD) as the next “Osama bin Laden “. etc.

[Bari_Phillis]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Noone sees themselves as 'evil' in real life either. Not even Hitler. People have an extraordinary capacity for rationalizing what they do.

I don't think Akainu or Aokiji are 'grey' at all.

This doesn't negate the fact that they are actually evil. While Hitler could rationalize it in his own twisted mind, he was most definitely evil. Same as in One Piece.

I'm gonna have to take the stance that all characters in One Piece are pretty much painted black and white once we get all the information on them. Even if someone has a "reason" for doing something, if it's to the detriment of another character, then that person is usually considered evil- basically anyone who is shown to have an f-ed up sense of morals. This applies to Kuzan, too; I believe he is definitely good.

It's one of the main messages of the manga (where the plot revolves around the main characters traveling to different countries...) - be tolerant of other people. If you're not, you're bad.

If you're "evil" and change your ways, you're good, if you don't you're bad. We see this all the time, hell we see it in the cover page arcs.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Bari_Phillis

This doesn't negate the fact that they are actually evil. While Hitler could rationalize it in his own twisted mind, he was most definitely evil. Same as in One Piece.

I'm gonna have to take the stance that all characters in One Piece are pretty much painted black and white once we get all the information on them. Even if someone has a "reason" for doing something, if it's to the detriment of another character, then that person is usually considered evil- basically anyone who is shown to have an f-ed up sense of morals. This applies to Kuzan, too; I believe he is definitely good.

It's one of the main messages of the manga (where the plot revolves around the main characters traveling to different countries...) - be tolerant of other people. If you're not, you're bad.

If you're "evil" and change your ways, you're good, if you don't you're bad. We see this all the time, hell we see it in the cover page arcs.

So you say: Saul is "good" and Aokiji is "good".

But Aokiji killed Saul.
With Oda showing that the "good ones" don't kill any named characters, Aokiji seems a bit off on the scale. And what about Buggy, Crocodile, Mr. 3 etc.?

Unnamed characters are a different matter though. They die off-screen, sometimes even killed by Luffy by being pushed off edges that lead into an endless pit (Enies Lobby) or Magma (Impel Down).

[paradox13]

There is no black and white good or bad in the real world, but One Piece is fiction. Sure there are grey characters, but it's hard to argue that Aokiji or Akainu are 'grey'.

What does good or bad even mean? What does it mean to be a 'good' character?

Aokiji respects man and life. As a soldier, you have to make tough choices. It's obvious he had a lot of respect and affection for Saul. Does killing him make him 'bad'? Is killing always 'bad'? It's hard to answer these questions. Looking at the character as a whole, you definitely won't say that he is 'grey' though.

Same with Akainu. I don't know if killing is always bad, but it's hard to justify killing and torturing innocent civilians who have no connection at all to the military objective. We know that it wasn't necessary (from a military perspective) to kill every civilian because Aokiji was against it. And really, when was 'following orders' a valid excuse? He has no care for at all for human life.

He really isn't a 'grey' character either.

With Oda showing that the "good ones" don't kill any named characters

What are you on about now?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by paradox13

There is no black and white good or bad in the real world, but One Piece is fiction. Sure there are grey characters, but it's hard to argue that Aokiji or Akainu are 'grey'.

What does good or bad even mean? What does it mean to be a 'good' character?

Aokiji respects man and life. As a soldier, you have to make tough choices. It's obvious he had a lot of respect and affection for Saul. Does killing him make him 'bad'? Is killing always 'bad'? It's hard to answer these questions. Looking at the character as a whole, you definitely won't say that he is 'grey' though.

Same with Akainu. I don't know if killing is always bad, but it's hard to justify killing and torturing innocent civilians who have no connection at all to the military objective. We know that it wasn't necessary (from a military perspective) to kill every civilian because Aokiji was against it. And really, when was 'following orders' a valid excuse? He has no care for at all for human life.

He really isn't a 'grey' character either.

Ok, I'll accept that as Aokiji just doing his job, while causing the least possible causilities that is in his power. That is fine.
What about others though? Crocodile? Buggy? Belamy? Mr. 3? Mr. 2? Going by the cover-stories, CP9 also seems to be different after having lost to the SHs.

Originally Posted by paradox13

What are you on about now?

Never mind. Reviewing it now, I probably did not make my point clear enough which can lead to misunderstandings, I will possibly retry to make that point, once I got enough time for that.