2012-06-20, 23:18 | Link #29221 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Well it is not like I am saying this theory is truth but everything fits together. There is no other theory I can think of that would explain everything. Give me a theory that would cause Yasu to commit suicide, Battler not coming back = No crime, and also a reason for the message bottles and I will accept your argument going against GCT. I am saying however I will not accept a theory involving the three prime suspects Eva, Yasu, or Battler. I will also give one piece of evidence that shows how obsessed George is with Shannon. He stated he was jealous of Battler when he was with Shannon. Now at this time Battler was 12 and Shannon was 10(13) and George was 17. Do you find a problem with this? George was so obsessed with her he was jealous of a 12 year-old and had the hots for a (to his knowledge) 10 year-old. This is the evidence I will use to prove George has a very creepy obsession with Shannon and I wouldn't put it past him to murder if she rejected him.
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Last edited by Asuka0NK; 2012-06-20 at 23:43. |
2012-06-20, 23:32 | Link #29222 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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2. Even if Battler didn't return, she planned to do SOMETHING that year 3. The "purpose" of the message bottles, in Prime, will probably shift depending on what one thinks actually happened at the conference. It's too difficult to consider them completely on their own. |
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2012-06-20, 23:33 | Link #29223 | |||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Fine I'll take your challenge!
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First off, let's clarify one thing: George is a human, and as every human he can get angered. In fact we've seen that he's far from a robot. Now you can compare keeping your emotion under control the same as preventing steam from gushing out from a kettle. A normal pot with boiling water cannot explode no matter what, but a pressure cooker? Sure it can if something goes wrong! And that's why the very fact of holding down primordial forces is the very thing that can make thing explode! George has in himself the conditions for that to happen. The fact that it never happened before proves nothing, induction logic doesn't work, just because a pressure cooker never exploded it doesn't mean it will never explode. Quote:
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- Nanjo and Kumasawa are guilty. They knew who Yasu was and yet they made her live that horrible life without ever saying a word, Yasu had to live in that orphanage and then as a lowly servant for years. There is a scene in EP7 where we see Yasu being extremely enraged against Nanjo and Genji. - Gohda is guilty. It is known fact that Gohda acted like a stuck up smug towards Shannon and Kanon. That may not be a grave crime, but that's still someone who doesn't deserve much regards. He's in the wrong place at the wrong moment, and there's no real reason to show him mercy. Quote:
Usually her deaths are painless. Maybe the killer thought it was a lot better for her to die rather than live after the tragedy. Considering what Ange had to go through, you must recognize there is some truth in this logic. Quote:
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2012-06-20, 23:48 | Link #29224 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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2. This "something" is never explored upon and in Ep 7 Yasu did say that the crimes wouldn't have happened if he didn't return that year so that "something" may just be Yasu finally choosing to live as Shannon 3. This is true. What I don't understand is that is it that hard to believe even someone like George wouldn't go mad if driven to the brink. Shannon you could say was the last person in all of George's life that he genuinely loved. He loved Shannon more then anybody else in the world. He hated Battler more then anybody else in the world. The person most important to him left him for someone he hated more then anything. I think this is a suitable motive. Did anyone also notice in Ep 7 George was the only one who Will didn't use his ability on.
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Last edited by Asuka0NK; 2012-06-21 at 00:13. |
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2012-06-21, 00:13 | Link #29225 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-06-21, 00:17 | Link #29227 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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The ending of Ep 8 of course. We know that Battler did escape on a boat but we hear nothing else about it. Is it a possibility that was nothing more then a fantasy? yes. Is there a possibility that that was us being able to peek into RP? yes. So though it is a small basis it is a possibility that what we saw was what really happened after the events of Rokkenjima on October 6th.
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2012-06-21, 00:30 | Link #29228 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Sorry for the late post; been pretty busy.
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By that I mean, I was looking at the behind the scenes to the LoTR movies and how (supposedly) every cut or every addition made to each version of the films was decided (supposedly) on whether it would serve the story or not. When they said that, it seemed that they were talking about whether a scene would go off on a tangent or whether a scene would serve to tell you more about what's going on with the core story. I think the technique was to ask yourself, does this scene tell us more about what's happening or the principle characters? Is it new information or redundant information? Does it talk about stuff that isn't central to the plot or characters? I think when you write and edit a written story, the process should be similar. (I think almost all of us agrees that Ryukishi could use an editor...) But more on that below... Quote:
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But... at the same time... I was thinking about this, the idea of 'serving the story.' If Umineko is your regular novel, movie, anime or manga, then yes, you would want to serve the story. But he did give a challenge and the challenge was more in the line of a detective novel.. or like a game. If Umineko is a game then he can't really serve the story; he has to hide the truth (in plain sight), misdirect us and make us think other things are happening. I thought (and many others too, I believe) that it would be fun for EP3-6 or even 7 to continue to mess with our heads. But by EP8, he would return to serving the story again and point out the parts in EP1-2 (if that really was it) that we had missed. This would be almost like a detective novel-like solution; the pointing out of clues you missed from early on in the story. But it looks like he kept going with this idea of a 'game' where if you can't defeat the last boss (or even *know* you defeated it) you won't get the ending movie. If you think of Umineko this way, as a game, then it makes sense. If you can't defeat Diablo (or get a bunch of your high level friends to come in and wipe the floor with him) then you won't get the closing cinematic. If you can't puzzle out the final Umineko truth (or read the message boards with all the theories), then you won't get to understand the story at all. But the problem is Umineko also resembles a traditional story. And stories that are hard to understand are not liked very much. "Spoilers 'do not ruin stories,' study says." ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14521627 ) The study couldn't explain why, but the guess is that the spoiler helps you to understand the story more. The study did show that people preferred the spoiled version more, though, which is already very telling. Maybe this is why Ryukishi kept telling us in several interviews that we should go back with what we know from later episodes to unlock more clues. |
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2012-06-21, 02:56 | Link #29229 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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- Why was money sent to the relatives of those who had been on Rokkenjima? Assuming you take that part as canon. - Why did George think that murdering everyone on the island would prove his love for Shannon? - How did Shannon have enough time while on the boat before she killed herself to write two or more alternative accounts of what happened? - If Battler hadn't returned, there still would have been a smaller incident. Under your theory, what would that incident have been? Here's the relevant text from the game for the latter question. Quote:
Last edited by GoldenLand; 2012-06-21 at 03:19. |
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2012-06-21, 04:54 | Link #29231 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Knox 8 just say it must be hinted, not that it must be proven that it happened before.
Can you say that it was never hinted that George could get angry or that he could kill everyone?
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2012-06-21, 05:36 | Link #29232 | |||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But that would only account for "1 year earlier". What kind of incident could happen "1 year later" though, when Yasu would have already gone with George? Quote:
-Backstory? Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice had a "backstory" too. -Ikuko can mean "many children" or "19". -The boat scene may not be real and even if it was: Explain how Battler 'teleported' from the ocean into the middle of the mountains (where he was supposedly hit by Ikuko's car) without magic. Well we discussed this for many pages here already and I think we agreed to disagree, but it is not "ridiculous" as it can explain a lot. |
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2012-06-21, 06:38 | Link #29233 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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That whole area isn't exactly plain and there are a lot of hills, but that's still near the sea so there's nothing strange there.
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2012-06-21, 07:34 | Link #29234 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Later, Eva wakes up and leaves the gold room. She encounters Rudolph and shoots him as shown and discovers George's corpse as shown. George's true last moments, however, are unknown. It is possible Rudolph and Kyrie decided to eliminate him as a threat. It is also possible that George panicked and attacked first, forcing Rudolph to kill in self defense again. It is also possible that Rudolph and George decided to settle things with some sort of honorable western-style duel and Rudolph simply won. No clues are presented to resolve that particular detail. After that, Eva encounters Kyrie as shown. However, Eva misunderstood Kyrie completely. Kyrie reasoned out that her gun was full of blanks and there was no way she could beat Eva in this fight. She also realized it was too late to apologize and calm things down. So she deliberately goaded Eva and said horrible things about Ange in order to guarantee that no matter what happened in this fight, the survivor would have a motivation to take good care of Ange when they came back from the island. Full of despair, Eva sets the bomb to bury the truth of this horrible night and retreats to Kuwadorian without confirming the deaths of everyone else. In fact, it is very likely they were still alive and most of them didn't realize how disastrously badly everything had gone. Later, Battler and Yasu go outside and discover the horrifying collection of corpses, including Battler's parents. They set off after Eva intending to reason with her and end the madness. Because of this, they are outside the blast area when the bomb goes off. In a panic, they realize the bomb must have gone off because Eva set it and come to the mistaken conclusion of Eva-Culprit theory. Battler and Yasu decide to go in to hiding. Battler is terrified of the woman that killed most of his family and friends for many long years, until one day the two of them decide to confront Eva for the sake of Ange and realize just how much pain Eva has been living with since that day. After a good long cry, Eva entrusts her diary of that day to the two of them and resolves herself to do whatever it takes for Ange's sake, even if it means being hated as a terrible witch. |
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2012-06-21, 07:58 | Link #29235 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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2012-06-21, 11:18 | Link #29236 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And the only "hint" that George could kill everyone was his answer to a false dilemma. Can you provide a hint that that the dilemma actually wasn't false? Because that'd be interesting. The only major problem I have with this is that you seem to have forgotten about Kyrie shooting Rosa. |
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2012-06-21, 11:27 | Link #29237 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Yes I already said I think this is highly improbable but not impossible. This smaller incident would be Kanon just mysteriously disappearing and a small uproar over it. His disappearance would slowly be forgotten and he would never be found leaving Jessica very sad but she would get over it so thus it is a tiny thing that no one could explain. Also on the boat scene. We do know Battler did escape on a boat but we have no idea if Yasu was on the boat thus it can be left to interpretation. Ikuko=Yasu not existing is my own personal belief. It is too much of a coincidence for Yasu to survive and just happen to find Battler on the road. It also isn't that hard for Battler to become Tohya he didn't just say hey my name is Tohya. He suffered amnesia and became Tohya. Finally I don't accept a Yasu, Eva, or Battler theory because it is too obvious. I like to believe that Yasu wrote the stories out of guilt for causing the events to play out not for commiting the murders. Eva would never kill her own family no matter what happens. I think Eva is smart enough to know she will never get away with murder and Battler Culprit Theory is just too obvious to be true I mean in OMK B.Battler's alternate outfit is Tohya.
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2012-06-21, 11:49 | Link #29238 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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You see, checking ep 4, I see that in each case with the letters, they were sent to the relevant person (such as Nanjo) but to a made-up address. The intention was clearly to have the letters being returned to the sender. However, the sender in each case was falsely identified as a relative of the person who had been on Rokkenjima. For Nanjo, it was Nanjo's son. For Rudolf, it was Ange. This suggests rather strongly that Yasu was aware in advance of being cut off by the typhoon that people might be killed en masse on that island. And probably also that Ange wasn't going to be going there because of being ill. I wonder if there is something which can explain that in a way that makes it seem she wasn't aware of the danger? (Anybody got an idea? Although I suppose we could try to say "that never really happened in Rokkenjima Prime") And if Yasu wanted to find out the addresses of the family and servants, I'm sure it would have been easy for her to do so without letting them know that she wants to send them something. The addresses are probably listed somewhere the servants can get to them. Certainly, Genji would know them, and Genji would give them to Yasu if she asked. |
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