Dating

[synaesthetic]

lol wow, did she honestly think anyone would believe that load of shit?

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

lol wow, did she honestly think anyone would believe that load of shit?

If it's what she believes, unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about it. People tend to be very stubborn about that kind of thing.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

If it's what she believes, unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about it. People tend to be very stubborn about that kind of thing.

IF it was how it's always been from the start, then sure. But when "it wasn't a problem before", well. Fecal matter of bos taurus, much?

[Moczo]

There is such a thing as 'born again' religion, people who find faith later in life... but I'll admit, if she suddenly went religious without mentioning it to her boyfriend of years before now, it sounds a bit suspicious.

[Endless Soul]

Originally Posted by Moczo

There is such a thing as 'born again' religion, people who find faith later in life... but I'll admit, if she suddenly went religious without mentioning it to her boyfriend of years before now, it sounds a bit suspicious.

Agreed. I've known girls (and guys too) that were religious and wouldn't allow themselves to be touched by anyone, ever. On the other hand I've known people to make up any excuse to get out of a relationship without looking like they were trying to get out of a relationship so they would't look like the bad person.

Kind of a tough call since we're only hearing one side of the story, but it sounds to me he already knows the answer.

[Ending]

It is from bos tarus (ha, ha!), but then again; she is very religious and the loudest one in the choir. She is also a 7th Day Adventist, believes evolution is a lie, science is there to explain how God did it, heaven and hell, the power of curing through prayer, etc. Basically, she has bought it all, hook and line. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't had any doubt.

The religious reason is this: Hebrews 13:4 – “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”

In practice it wasn't a problem, because we were seeing each other every six months anyway. It's the thought that insults me, since I made it very clear from the beginning that this is a big issue (I'm an atheist, btw). Back then it wasn't a problem, but now she is saying she wants to become even more religious. In fact, I think she is only one step away from becoming a priest, held back only by the fact that she wants a family one day.

But the good thing is that we had it sorted until now, since it really doesn't show in every day life. She makes her prayers quickly and mutely, and the talk about creation and whatnot has never been important to me.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

IF it was how it's always been from the start, then sure. But when "it wasn't a problem before", well. Fecal matter of bos taurus, much?

This is pretty much what I was getting at. To suddenly go "no sex before marriage" to a guy you've been with for a while now... when you're away from him... might make some people suspicious that you're stringing him along while boffing the other boyfriend...

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Ending

It is from bos tarus (ha, ha!), but then again; she is very religious and the loudest one in the choir. She is also a 7th Day Adventist, believes evolution is a lie, science is there to explain how God did it, heaven and hell, the power of curing through prayer, etc. Basically, she has bought it all, hook and line. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't had any doubt.

The religious reason is this: Hebrews 13:4 – “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”

In practice it wasn't a problem, because we were seeing each other every six months anyway. It's the thought that insults me, since I made it very clear from the beginning that this is a big issue (I'm an atheist, btw). Back then it wasn't a problem, but now she is saying she wants to become even more religious. In fact, I think she is only one step away from becoming a priest, held back only by the fact that she wants a family one day.

But the good thing is that we had it sorted until now, since it really doesn't show in every day life. She makes her prayers quickly and mutely, and the talk about creation and whatnot has never been important to me.

Oh, ho. So it was clear from the beginning, and she hasn't been giving you any trouble for it, until now. Sounds to me like the "I can change him!" mindset, and now she's making her move towards that end.

Well, if it was me (never mind that I probably wouldn't hook up with such a girl in the first place), I'd give her the hot potato treatment; immediate drop. I hate to break your heart, but the way I see it, there's no future for you with her.

[synaesthetic]

Not unless you want to be proselytized to until you go on an insane homicidal rampage.

[Ricky Controversy]

@Ending

I'm going to play Devil's (hah) Advocate here, because I know the easy knee-jerk reaction is to say "oh, the fundie is at fault" because she happens to be a fundie, but the way you articulated the whole thing has me thinking that, honestly, you're as much at fault as she is.

You seem to have little respect for her religion. You refer to her belief in certain elements of it as having bought it, and you say things were 'sorted' because her religion wasn't a regular element of daily life: in short, you didn't have to put up with much of that lifestyle you don't respect. I'm not here to defend fundamentalism or Seventh Day Adventism. Nor am I here to peddle the tired line about respecting everyone's beliefs.

What I will say is that it's a painfully idiotic idea to enter into a relationship with someone whose leanings in such an area cause you grief or 'insult' you, whether they seem to be majorly present or not. This isn't something you can shrug off or grow around, like a difference in musical taste or what have you. This is a thing that peoples' lives can turn around, and you have to be realistic enough to think the ramifications of that possibility through.

When I was younger and still an atheist, I dated a devout Christian girl whom I knew believed certain things that I had a lot of trouble with. I told myself "this won't come up, it's not a problem now," the whole time, and the relationship went great. Then we had a conversation about injustice and everything blew wide open. It's the exact same recipe for the exact same land mine.

If she's guilty of trying to change you, you're guilty of trying to ignore a piece of her into irrelevance. You knew certain things about her, you chose to ignore them, and you act now like the wronged party? No, no. You both messed up. End of lesson.

[Ending]

@ Ricky Controversy

You misunderstand. Religion is a personal matter and we keep it that way. I see it as a flaw, but it's not why I would break up with her. Like said: we keep it to ourselves and focus on the other aspects of life. (Yes, we have had many talks about this.) I'm simply questioning the hint that she is banging some other guy while giving me false hopes, since she really is religious.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Ending

@ Ricky Controversy

You misunderstand. Religion is a personal matter and we keep it that way. I see it as a flaw, but it's not why I would break up with her. Like said: we keep it to ourselves and focus on the other aspects of life. (Yes, we have had many talks about this.) I'm simply questioning the hint that she is banging some other guy while giving me false hopes, since she really is religious.

I've learned to have to bite my tongue a great deal when it comes to religion, but I'll be frank here. I can understand the merits of the few things it proposes, but the moment you try and hide behind it and use it as an excuse, I've found it frustrating. I've always felt that people who would do that were never truly being honest with themselves, and hiding behind something to hide their insecurities or fears.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Ending

@ Ricky Controversy

You misunderstand. Religion is a personal matter and we keep it that way. I see it as a flaw, but it's not why I would break up with her. Like said: we keep it to ourselves and focus on the other aspects of life. (Yes, we have had many talks about this.) I'm simply questioning the hint that she is banging some other guy while giving me false hopes, since she really is religious.

Oi oi, it's your fault to begin with. The way you worded your initial post, the idea that your girlfriend pulled the 'no sex before marriage because religion' card out of her ass was a perfectly reasonable conclusion to leap to, you know.

And you know, I think I'm going to join the 'let's pile on Ending' club, too. If you expected religious beliefs to be a purely personal matter that will have no effect on your relationship, then you obviously haven't realized the power of the religion meme on human brains.

I vaguely remember having said on this same thread that 'religion is one of the biggest killers of relationships' or something to that effect, for a very good reason. Beliefs of this kind, once they take root in a person's psyche, pretty much orders that said person's entire paradigm, which includes how that person behaves in social relationship, especially of the romantic variety.

You honestly thought she would put her entire belief system aside just for you? You honestly thought she wouldn't try to change you to fit her beliefs instead? You honestly thought it wouldn't be an issue once you two get married, and even once it comes time to educate the kids? Really?

If so, maybe I can interest you in this prime piece of engineering, which connects the economic powerhouse of Singapore with Malaysia, a nation it shares a great deal of history with...

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Ending

@ Ricky Controversy

You misunderstand. Religion is a personal matter and we keep it that way. I see it as a flaw, but it's not why I would break up with her. Like said: we keep it to ourselves and focus on the other aspects of life. (Yes, we have had many talks about this.) I'm simply questioning the hint that she is banging some other guy while giving me false hopes, since she really is religious.

.... I hate to gang up on you, but I... well, actually, I don't hate it at all.

Your initial post gave the impression that her religion was a fairly new thing, which made it sound like her,'no sex before marriage' stance was an excuse. But now it seems like she's always been very religious and you were just hoping it would never affect you because she was usually good about not throwing it in your face? I'm sorry, but that just smacks of denial. You had to know that the more serious your relationship got, the more her religion would begin to come into play. It's hard to find one that doesn't have some sort of rules regarding sex and marriage, and if she is genuinely devout it was always going to come up...

[DonQuigleone]

Religion is integral to your entire outlook on life, it defines what your philosophical views are.

Even a non-fundy christian and atheist are going to experience problems down the road, particularly as they become closer together. It's very important that two people in a relationship share similiar views on matters of ethics and basic philosophy. If she thinks that at a basic level that belief in god is morally important, that will always be a wedge. When a person is younger they might ignore these things a little, but people tend to become a lot more entrenched in their views as they age, particularly surrounding important life decisions.

And of course, if they're in one of the more religious branches (7th day adventists for instance), then you only have yourself to blame. If the person feels religion is important to them, you have to respect that fact and realise that this is a central part of their life. It doesn't make you or they bad people, I myself have had great religious friends (of various levels of religiousity), but I doubt we could last if we went into a relationship together. Invariably our disagreements on basic ethics would spin out of control. And it's not just the "But I want to have sex thing", it's as much the "But you're going to go to hell! I don't want to see that happen to you!" or "But how do you know what's the right thing to do without gods guidance", and of course these things can end out also pulling in personal squabbles. Ignoring religion is simply delaying a series of inevitable and painfully personal arguments for later.

I'd personally only consider dating a religious person if they were on the edge of going atheist. It creates too many complications otherwise.

If you knew going in that she was very religious, you only had yourself to blame. And if she does try and convert you later, it will be quite logical, as she's trying to help the person she cares about. Of course you won't consider that "helping"...

[Malkuth]

Religion and real world... well, they just do not work together; God, gods, ghosts 'n' goblins, try to enforce an unnatural way of life. Not to be totalitarian, they work as long as you wish to go against your natural urges, but that's it, like a Hollywood film, it works for a couple of hours, religion and stuff do so for a couple of decades

EDIT: Kind of expected religious freaks to neg-rep too much possitive feedback lately feels just wrong

[RadiantBeam]

Ending, I'm going to be honest. I think before you go and break up with her, you at least should talk to her about her views on religion, and on yours. It won't be very peaceful, I'm sure, and it will probably be a little painful. But it will clear the air for both of you, let you talk things out, and give you both an idea of where you stand in the relationship, and whether or not you want to continue with it.

That's what I would do, anyway.

[Malkuth]

Hehe, what's up with you guys, gals, and in betweens? I was about to propuse to a pro, everyone despie past or current habits deserves love

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Ending

@ Ricky Controversy

You misunderstand. Religion is a personal matter and we keep it that way. I see it as a flaw, but it's not why I would break up with her. Like said: we keep it to ourselves and focus on the other aspects of life. (Yes, we have had many talks about this.) I'm simply questioning the hint that she is banging some other guy while giving me false hopes, since she really is religious.

Speaking as a Catholic here, I'll tell you what that translates to:

You see her as flawed.

Nothing more, nothing less. Break up, remain friends if you wish since you seem to get on well. Hearing that from a guy who I would have feelings for would break my heart if not destroy my confidence.
"He sees me as flawed..."
This also:

But the good thing is that we had it sorted until now, since it really doesn't show in every day life. She makes her prayers quickly and mutely, and the talk about creation and whatnot has never been important to me.

Nothing was sorted, it sounds like she had to hide it all this time when near ya, she's not free to express a part of who she is, huh...

Of course, I agree that faith is a private affair which is great when friends.
But as a couple, that kinda relationship is anything but platonic.
It's personal, it's deep, you mutually expose and trust each other and if her faith is fairly embedded in her as mine is (or perhaps she's even more devout than me going by the sound of things), that sentence or your thought right there says everything.

I personally wouldn't even try, if there's a guy who I've good chemistry with but they're an atheist or a muslim or wiccan, it doesn't take a blind monkey to know there's no future as a couple/family if both are set in their ways, but I'll definitely be their friend and support them and so on.
The world is varied and diverse, there is someone for everybody but trying to force a relationship on the fear of being 'close minded', to me is hypocritical, far more damaging than anything.
I see it no different to forcing Syn to play 'a man', staying in her original body' or forcing Chey to be monogomous anymore than I can 'switch off' not believing in a Higher Being.

And since those two I've referenced have sure as hell tried to explain their very existance on this website for years, the rest of you will know or gain a sense of how religion can also be part of someone's DNA. (Figuratively)
Yes, it's learnt as are many social norms, but it can be casted off (as many do) if a person didn't truly 'believe' or feel anything of their own accord.

If there's no hate or malice behind an action, it's not racist, fascist, sexist, ageist, etc, etc, etc. That's coming from a person living in Japan where if I was American, I could sue for some 'emotional distress' reason almost every month.
(Very similar to my smoking issue, the bottom line being we wouldn't be able to even coincide peacefully in daily life, WTF are we gonna try for a relationship for that's bound to be filled with strain and tension?)

If you have the time/emotional energy to try and see first (if it's no good, then it's no good), then that's okay however I sense the humans involved would be very practical peeps.

Dating, love, lust and the rest most of the time is anything but practical
(In actuality anyways, in theory, it's always great...)

PS: Malkuth, it's not being a 'freak' but just simply outta shit stirring on something sensitive and important that hurts others, I'll indulge you too.

[Ending]

Guess I asked for this when I brought up religion. Like throwing shit into the fan

Anyway, I wouldn't expect anyone to be perfect. Her being zealously religious is a flaw, but then me being an atheist is also a flaw to her. Call it even. Yes, her religion shows, but only every Saturday and when she meets other religious people. Otherwise there is no mention of it and I don't see it as a pivotal point of our relationship. So don't point a finger at our difference in religion and say: "This! This right here is the reason!"
Because it's not. We are morally the same, except that she calls herself an adventist and I call myself atheist.

The problem is everything else that's piling on top of it:
- Long separation and the threat of it becoming even longer, if she wants to keep her job
- Lack of intimacy (she went and changed the rules of our relationship, making it something I wouldn't had gone into if it had been so from the start)
- Her need to be independent (doesn't sound like she is ready to commit)
- Bunking with another guy (gay or not, friend or not). She lives in a poor country, mind.
- Contact with her ex, which to me is kinda no-no, but alone isn't a big deal
...And generally, the feeling that I'm not even in the top-5 of her priorities. She got her family, her school, friends, religion, her aspirations, and soon her job taking priority. It doesn't make me feel too good about my place in her life.

Two years is a long time and I guess what I'm wondering is that should I simply find another woman, who has less objections against coming together after a reasonable dating time.

When a person is younger they might ignore these things a little, but people tend to become a lot more entrenched in their views as they age, particularly surrounding important life decisions.

Yeah, this has to be added to the list too, since we had one argument about kids. She actually said that she wants them to love God more than life itself, more than their parents, and them becoming atheists would mean she had failed as a parent. It's slightly irritating, but I could live with it and let her go her way.

Also, she has tried to convert me too, going along the same lines: "I would want you to love God more than anything, more than me." To which I replied that if the Big Guy sends me an angel, in flesh, sure. But since she believes that only dead people can see angels, she blurted that she will be praying for my death. Speaking about a shocker. A mistake, but it did make me wonder.