(L) Dragon Ball Super

[Vegard Aune]

Um, guys... All this talk about Goku being an awful husband and father...
Was I the only one who saw episode 17? Because seriously, Chichi in that episode was just absolutely the worst. "GOKU STOP TRYING TO DO WHAT YOU CLEARLY LOVE YOU HAVE TO GO GET A MENIAL JOB AND MAKE MONEY DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A HUNDRED MILLION LYING AROUND WHICH I'M GOING TO CLAIM THAT I'VE SOMEHOW ALREADY SPENT (Whether she actually did, or if she was just lying about it like she later revealed, that's still low) BECAUSE WHAT YOU WANT DOESN'T MATTER OH AND ALSO I'M GOING TO LOCK MYSELF IN A ROOM WITH GOHAN'S BABY BECAUSE HE CLEARLY IS UNSUITED TO TAKE CARE OF HER FURTHERMORE I'M GONNA COMPLETELY DISREGARD WHAT HE OR MR. SATAN WANT BECAUSE MY OPINION IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS!!!!"

Yup. Clearly Goku is the bad one in this relationship.

[kenjiharima]

Lets just agree Goku still needs work on his skills as a father while Vegeta later on became a better dad, he and Bulma are rarely fights and has more romantic moments and family moments.

Either way a new enemy cloned Vegeta and took his powers?! Man talk about a loop hole here after the tournament, it's really power up that beats saiyans it's the ability of the said enemy.

[chaos_animagic]

Originally Posted by kenjiharima

Lets just agree Goku still needs work on his skills as a father while Vegeta later on became a better dad, he and Bulma are rarely fights and has more romantic moments and family moments.

Either way a new enemy cloned Vegeta and took his powers?! Man talk about a loop hole here after the tournament, it's really power up that beats saiyans it's the ability of the said enemy.

That's also due to Bulma being an awesome woman compared to Chichi...

An awesome wife = an awesome husband.

Chichi on the other hand... was crap throughout Goku's entire life, that's why Goku's like what he is now...

Remember, most things Goku learned is from Chichi...

Goku is more or less a similar version of male Chichi, Chichi focuses on something (books, money, anti-battle) and always wants it to be her way,
so... Goku follows, Goku focuses on battle and always wants to battle...


Bulma on the other hand was able to use her gentleness and patience to nurture Vegeta (which we've seen flashbacks of), which in the end made Vegeta fall in love with her.
And with that kindness, Vegeta isn't as bloodthirsty as he used to be, he doesn't want to end anyone's life instantly. (if anything, he still wants more battle too, but will still place Bulma as top priority)



Man, this discussion of battle of the wives will never end huh.... lol

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Um, guys... All this talk about Goku being an awful husband and father...
Was I the only one who saw episode 17? Because seriously, Chichi in that episode was just absolutely the worst. "GOKU STOP TRYING TO DO WHAT YOU CLEARLY LOVE YOU HAVE TO GO GET A MENIAL JOB AND MAKE MONEY DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A HUNDRED MILLION LYING AROUND WHICH I'M GOING TO CLAIM THAT I'VE SOMEHOW ALREADY SPENT (Whether she actually did, or if she was just lying about it like she later revealed, that's still low) BECAUSE WHAT YOU WANT DOESN'T MATTER OH AND ALSO I'M GOING TO LOCK MYSELF IN A ROOM WITH GOHAN'S BABY BECAUSE HE CLEARLY IS UNSUITED TO TAKE CARE OF HER FURTHERMORE I'M GONNA COMPLETELY DISREGARD WHAT HE OR MR. SATAN WANT BECAUSE MY OPINION IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS!!!!"

Yup. Clearly Goku is the bad one in this relationship.

Originally Posted by chaos_animagic

That's also due to Bulma being an awesome woman compared to Chichi...

An awesome wife = an awesome husband.

Chichi on the other hand... was crap throughout Goku's entire life, that's why Goku's like what he is now...

Remember, most things Goku learned is from Chichi...

Goku is more or less a similar version of male Chichi, Chichi focuses on something (books, money, anti-battle) and always wants it to be her way,
so... Goku follows, Goku focuses on battle and always wants to battle...


Bulma on the other hand was able to use her gentleness and patience to nurture Vegeta (which we've seen flashbacks of), which in the end made Vegeta fall in love with her.
And with that kindness, Vegeta isn't as bloodthirsty as he used to be, he doesn't want to end anyone's life instantly. (if anything, he still wants more battle too, but will still place Bulma as top priority)



Man, this discussion of battle of the wives will never end huh.... lol

because she wanted goku to stop being so obsessed with "fighting" and somehow act more like a "normal husband" with a proper job instead of be a "forever slack" and based on how "goku eat like a monster" that money not gonna last for too many time, remember when they married and chichi get her father fortune and with some few years they get "poor", because goku "sayan hunger", another chichi is not the type to "leave they childrens" alone for selfish reasons, she is the one which keep asking for goku be a more close parent and even at the end she accept his selfishness.

or you forget in the same episode she say which is fine have him train, what she do is obvious feel lonely and want he be with her, since this is not what he really like to do.

most of the times she was opposed in the end she accepted all the goku selfishness, while she could not be the perfect wife she is not even close of "goku" levels" of bad father and husband.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah that i see too, maybe now akira can make goku look like a better parent than before, but my point is which so far goku really not was a really "good exemple" of father or husband" to take in account his childsh and carefree acts aways make him really look bad, like really chichi must really deep love goku otherwise she could already cheated on him or break with him, because how much wifes could be fine with they husband leave then alones for years "just because they want to train more" , this make goku looks like the muscle maniacs guys, which only have muscle in brains and use the "things to become more and more strong and the obssession goes really crazy.

goku obssession for fights is a little over the top for me and sometimes make hard to stick for him, the gods battle arc was a exemple, goku in his selfish desire for fight risked the whole earth and everyone 2 times(one to challenge beerus brother to start the tournament and a second to fight momoka or birus in disguise which again could result in earth destruction while goku was totally carefree again and ignore which maybe his fight could result in earth detruction and was needed the other guy to stop them, this really make me doubt about goku "hero side.

Goku's recent recklessness for others costed his Ki to fuuuuek up hard making him realize.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Goku's recent recklessness for others costed his Ki to fuuuuek up hard making him realize.

yeah i think which akira is really trying to "change goku" and maybe showing which his carefree and recklessness is not really something good and now need to finally change, goku can't be the "forever peter pan", he grow is time for him to "grow in mind too not only in physic.

that is why i really wished goku never had married in first place because at last his "shounen mc over the top personality could be more bearable and sound less stupid than being a full aged man acting like a 8 years old which a crazy obssesion for fight which can make him bet "important things" which sometimes make him looks weird.

for me in super so far made goku look less likeable while make vegita look much more likeable like they are trading personality, goku being the "reckless bad boy secondary character and vegita looking more like a "really mc" than goku, because he do what goku is forgeting to do which is care for his friends and family.

really akira making for me goku really looks like a terrible mc in many aspects in super.

[kenjiharima]

The only thing Chichi is good for is...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by chaos_animagic

Goku is more or less a similar version of male Chichi, Chichi focuses on something (books, money, anti-battle) and always wants it to be her way,
so... Goku follows, Goku focuses on battle and always wants to battle...

Speaking of which, when did Goku become a battle-obsessed fool again anyway? He appeared to grow out of it after beating King Piccolo, and only trained enough to make sure he could save the world from another Piccolo-like threat. Then the series just chained enemies that he had to continue to train to get stronger than to keep people he cared about from dying. But he never seemed to be truly "enjoying" the fights, just wanting to protect people. Then he passed the mantle of Earth's Protector to Gohan and accepted his death because he kept attracting enemies. Even in the Buu Saga, when he realized Gohan had completely failed to keep up his training to be Earth's Protector, he wanted to leave that job to Goten and Trunks.

And then suddenly in Super/Battle of Gods he's some battle maniac who wants to fight the God of Destruction and other universe fighters and stuff while lamenting the idea of having to give up fighting to spend time with his granddaughter. What the hell happened, Goku?

[sayde]

Originally Posted by GDB

Speaking of which, when did Goku become a battle-obsessed fool again anyway? He appeared to grow out of it after beating King Piccolo, and only trained enough to make sure he could save the world from another Piccolo-like threat. Then the series just chained enemies that he had to continue to train to get stronger than to keep people he cared about from dying. But he never seemed to be truly "enjoying" the fights, just wanting to protect people.

I'd argue that Goku's affinity for fighting never truly went away during DBZ. For instance, at the end of the cell saga, he kept training for fun and sought out new opponents and opportunities to test his strength against--which is what led to his achieving SSJ2 and SSJ3. And even at the end of the Buu Saga, he admitted that he enjoyed the challenge and wished for Kid Buu to be reincarnated just so he could have a good sparing partner in the future.

I personally feel like part of Toriyama's intentions for Super has been to bring the franchise back to it's comedic roots a little more. And to that end, we've seen an exaggeration of Goku's quirks and personality traits just for the sake of comedy and to make children laugh with little regard as to how that might make older fans feel. Unfortunately, for many fans who've grown accustomed to the more serious and mature Goku from the DBZ sagas, seeing Goku look and sound stupid and aloof so much isn't funny--it's just frustrating.

I agree in that Super does make Goku look like he's regressed in maturity back to a child. But his inner battle-loving maniac was always there IMO. It's just that Super has done everything but keep it subtle.

I personally don't like to take Goku's personality too seriously since I don't think Toriyama ever intended for us to do that. But in Goku's defense, if you really stop to think about it, his faults as a father and as an adult in general make sense when you can consider how he more or less grew up to take care of himself soon after infancy and didn't really have a strong influential father figure or family to learn basic family values from throughout his most impressionable years as a child.

I think that's another reason I don't think too deeply about Goku's lack of care or attention towards his own children. Because he probably doesn't even know how important that is since from Goku's perspective, he grew up just fine without it.

On another note, Vegeta was at least a little better off in this regard since he had a family he could remember before it was all taken away. So it's not all too surprising that he would be a better family man than Goku.

[Kurohane]

Also, during Cell saga, Goku gave Cell a senzu bean, so he's be at full strength again fighting Gohan, reasons being "so Cell won't feel too bad losing" and for Gohan to have a better battle. He explicitly gets called out for this later by Piccolo telling him that Gohan's not like him and doesn't enjoy fighting.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by sayde

I'd argue that Goku's affinity for fighting never truly went away during DBZ. For instance, at the end of the cell saga, he kept training for fun and sought out new opponents and opportunities to test his strength against--which is what led to his achieving SSJ2 and SSJ3. And even at the end of the Buu Saga, he admitted that he enjoyed the challenge and wished for Kid Buu to be reincarnated just so he could have a good sparing partner in the future.

I personally feel like part of Toriyama's intentions for Super has been to bring the franchise back to it's comedic roots a little more. And to that end, we've seen an exaggeration of Goku's quirks and personality traits just for the sake of comedy and to make children laugh with little regard as to how that might make older fans feel. Unfortunately, for many fans who've grown accustomed to the more serious and mature Goku from the DBZ sagas, seeing Goku look and sound stupid and aloof so much isn't funny--it's just frustrating.

I agree in that Super does make Goku look like he's regressed in maturity back to a child. But his inner battle-loving maniac was always there IMO. It's just that Super has done everything but keep it subtle.

I personally don't like to take Goku's personality too seriously since I don't think Toriyama ever intended for us to do that. But in Goku's defense, if you really stop to think about it, his faults as a father and as an adult in general make sense when you can consider how he more or less grew up to take care of himself soon after infancy and didn't really have a strong influential father figure or family to learn basic family values from throughout his most impressionable years as a child.

I think that's another reason I don't think too deeply about Goku's lack of care or attention towards his own children. Because he probably doesn't even know how important that is since from Goku's perspective, he grew up just fine without it.

On another note, Vegeta was at least a little better off in this regard since he had a family he could remember before it was all taken away. So it's not all too surprising that he would be a better family man than Goku.

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Also, during Cell saga, Goku gave Cell a senzu bean, so he's be at full strength again fighting Gohan, reasons being "so Cell won't feel too bad losing" and for Gohan to have a better battle. He explicitly gets called out for this later by Piccolo telling him that Gohan's not like him and doesn't enjoy fighting.

i can understand this points buts is even more weird when "picollo" is also a "better parent" than him, omg even a guy which born "evil(was the evil side of old kami-sama") was able to become a better role model for gohan and even a better grandfather for pan O.o, is really weird when even peoples which are supposed to be worst than him proof being better than him, really something is missing in goku head.

another note if i'm not wrong goku had son-gohan(his grandfather in law) until he was like 6 or something like that when he turned in a big monkey and killed him leaving goky alone for like 2 years(if i'm not wrong goku start db with 8 years or was 10 then son gohan died while he was at 8, well he had his grandfather for like 6 to 8 years then was alone for 2 years then meet buma and expend with her like more 2 years then go living with master kami/riosh for like more 2 to 4 years when he reached 16 then goes to the tornament and in the end marry chichi(i'f i'm not wrong they married at 16 years old age) then with that in mind until now the time he was "alone" was much little to the time where he meet peoples and ended marrying someone (chichi).

is a little hard for me to believe which just because of like 2 to at best 4 years really alone when between 8 to 10 to really make in a way which never gonna change.

like i told i wold prefer if goku never matured and everyone stayed "young" many things could make more sense and he acting like a "little" kid could look less weird, because it's not like he need to be all serious and mature, you can still have your "inner child" when mature but when your inner child aways is you "main personality is weir specially when you are at like 40+ unless you are the cliche perv old guy but a mc like that is really hard to accept.

whatever i really hope goku really improve and learn a little now, which he really feel bad for losing sight of pan, maybe now finally "he learn what the means of "guilt" and maybe also learn to not bet "his friends/family/world lifes in battles just because he want to battle someone strong, for me still hard to take what goky did in battle of gods compared with his previous incarnations which while also loved battle they not goes that "extreme" just for the sake of "battle".

[DragonXX]

From the beginning of Super, it feel like Goku have bet slowly turning from a hero to someone evil.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

another note if i'm not wrong goku had son-gohan(his grandfather in law) until he was like 6 or something like that when he turned in a big monkey and killed him leaving goky alone for like 2 years(if i'm not wrong goku start db with 8 years or was 10 then son gohan died while he was at 8, well he had his grandfather for like 6 to 8 years then was alone for 2 years then meet buma and expend with her like more 2 years then go living with master kami/riosh for like more 2 to 4 years when he reached 16 then goes to the tornament and in the end marry chichi(i'f i'm not wrong they married at 16 years old age) then with that in mind until now the time he was "alone" was much little to the time where he meet peoples and ended marrying someone (chichi).

is a little hard for me to believe which just because of like 2 to at best 4 years really alone when between 8 to 10 to really make in a way which never gonna change.

Goku went a whole 12 years knowing only one person in the world. For all intents and purposes, that kind of upbringing, or lack thereof, could plausibly leave a person emotionally and psychologically stunted in many ways--especially if that person had to fend for themselves from the ages of 8-12. For all Grandpa Gohan tried to teach him before he died, there was still so much Goku still didn't know as is evident throughout his adventures in DB. And then there's also the fact that Goku's always been portrayed as being naturally stupid and slow on the uptake unless it comes to matters involving fighting.

Speaking of which, Picollo on the other hand, has been stated to be among the smartest characters in the series. So perhaps that's the main reason why he's been able to develop a more mature sense of care and responsibility towards those he values despite also not having a family growing up. One could also argue that those tendencies were also hidden somewhere deep within his nature since he's Namekian (and we see how peace loving and family oriented they are). But I digress.

Goku didn't seem to learn the premise of basic family values until Chi-Chi started teaching it to him. And even then, it felt like Goku was (and still is) simply going through the motions.

So if it seems like Goku is too stupid to develop the same emotional consideration and care towards his family that other characters like Picollo and Vegeta have, it may be because he probably IS that stupid due to a potent combination of both his dumb nature and his poor nurture.

I think I'm going to stop here though. Because I really don't want to fall into the trap of giving this more thought than I'm sure Toriyama has given this. To him, the things Goku does and the way he acts, probably is all for the lulz

To you and anyone else who may still disagree with me, that's fine. I won't rebuttal the matter any further.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Also, during Cell saga, Goku gave Cell a senzu bean, so he's be at full strength again fighting Gohan, reasons being "so Cell won't feel too bad losing" and for Gohan to have a better battle. He explicitly gets called out for this later by Piccolo telling him that Gohan's not like him and doesn't enjoy fighting.

He also deliberately did not go for Bulma's perfectly logical suggestion of "Let's find the Dragon Balls, ask Shenlong where Doctor Gero is, and kill him before he can activate the androids!" Why? Because he absolutely wanted to fight these super-powerful androids, just like Vegeta did.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by GDB

Speaking of which, when did Goku become a battle-obsessed fool again anyway? He appeared to grow out of it after beating King Piccolo, and only trained enough to make sure he could save the world from another Piccolo-like threat. Then the series just chained enemies that he had to continue to train to get stronger than to keep people he cared about from dying. But he never seemed to be truly "enjoying" the fights, just wanting to protect people. Then he passed the mantle of Earth's Protector to Gohan and accepted his death because he kept attracting enemies. Even in the Buu Saga, when he realized Gohan had completely failed to keep up his training to be Earth's Protector, he wanted to leave that job to Goten and Trunks.

And then suddenly in Super/Battle of Gods he's some battle maniac who wants to fight the God of Destruction and other universe fighters and stuff while lamenting the idea of having to give up fighting to spend time with his granddaughter. What the hell happened, Goku?

He said himself that he gets legitimately pissed off by Frieza during the resurrection arc. The enemies in Super may have been stronger, but the stakes haven't been as high. You could argue Beerus, but Goku has displayed strong intuition for people's intentions in the past without knowing much about them (Trunks swinging his sword at Goku's head). It's possible he perceived that Beerus wasn't actually intending to kill them.

The biggest example of his fight-loving nature to me was staying dead after the Cell arc. He preferred to abandon his family and two young sons so he could train for the rest of eternity.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

The biggest example of his fight-loving nature to me was staying dead after the Cell arc. He preferred to abandon his family and two young sons so he could train for the rest of eternity.

Um did he even know goten even existed at the time that happened, because i don't hink he was ever brought up till high school gohan arc, you can say he abandon his teenage son and wife, but i don't think you can say he abandon both goten and gohan, and besides didn't the earth dragon say it wasn't possible for him to bring goku back because he already revived him once

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

Um did he even know goten even existed at the time that happened, because i don't hink he was ever brought up till high school gohan arc, you can say he abandon his teenage son and wife, but i don't think you can say he abandon both goten and gohan, and besides didn't the earth dragon say it wasn't possible for him to bring goku back because he already revived him once

no, goku knew about goten( when he meet chichi and saw goten he say something like "oh this must be goten my other child before chichi could even talk he pretty aware of him) , when he come back in buu arc as ghost he already aware of gothen birth and the limit in ressurections was only for the "old dragon balls" the new one don't had that limit and you can ressurect anyone many times as you want, that was a limitation for the old piccolo(kami-sama) not for den den he even improve the balls to give 3 wishes instead of just one, goku even made clear which he don't want come back after cell, which he wanted stay dead to train more with mr kaio and enter in the "dead tournamente where he get the ss 3 mode.

since cell saga goku started to looked like his love for battle become a obssession over it to the point of make crazy choices(like giving a fruit to cell, making a endless fight with freeza he clear have the power to defeat him but choose to keep testing his newfound ss powers until almost later and could died) like someone told was now in super which that obssession now look even worse to the point of him care more about fights than the safe if his "beloved" friends and family.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Also, during Cell saga, Goku gave Cell a senzu bean, so he's be at full strength again fighting Gohan, reasons being "so Cell won't feel too bad losing" and for Gohan to have a better battle. He explicitly gets called out for this later by Piccolo telling him that Gohan's not like him and doesn't enjoy fighting.

Let's also remember he spared Vegeta, who was responsible for the death of his friends, just because he enjoyed fighting him and wanted to do it again. He's always loved fighting.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Let's also remember he spared Vegeta, who was responsible for the death of his friends, just because he enjoyed fighting him and wanted to do it again. He's always loved fighting.

yeah when you start to look to goku "past" after dragon ball and beginner of Z, goku goes from your typical "shounen" hero, to a dumbass anti-hero, because normally anti-heroes are badass and smart but goku is only smart when comes to fight all the others things he is a big dumbass person with just "muscle brains".

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

no, goku knew about goten( when he meet chichi and saw goten he say something like "oh this must be goten my other child before chichi could even talk he pretty aware of him) , when he come back in buu arc as ghost he already aware of gothen birth

Incorrect. What Goku said was "Hey, that kid looks just like me! Is he my kid?" He didn't know he had a second son, he just worked it out from the obvious familial resemblance. And, y'know, the fact that he was clinging to Chichi.

As for the whole Goku remaining dead thing, he did actually give another reason aside from just "I wanna fight strong dudes!";
He felt that he was a natural trouble-magnet. Raditz, Vegeta, Mecha-Freeza, the androids, Cell... All of them came to Earth specifically because of him. Of course if Goku hadn't been there chances are the Red Ribbon Army and/or Piccolo would have conquered the planet anyway but... really, literally every threat they'd faced ever since Goku grew up could be traced straight back to him.