[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Saorin]

Thanks for the answer, Helmet =D

Was Dine's 4th one of those stated in red within the game? If not (don't know atm ) it is not absolutely certain it does apply to the game, is it?
And..uhm...why the 4th? Not rather the 5th?

I'm sorry for being a blockhead Why would Kanon being a real person acknowledge the existence of magic? I'm probably just being stupid right now, so I'd be grateful if you could explain it =) Thanks.
Maybe it's too late for me to be thinking properly

[AuraTwilight]

So yeah, if it is a world composed of different ones by Bern, why put Shannon in (she isn't really interviewed by Will, is she?) although that's obviously a paradox, but basically shove Shkanon in the reader's face by making Shannon go into puppet mode as soon as Will wants to see her with Kanon? It's not as if Shkanon hasn't been shoved in our faces before this, but this is just taking it a bit far, isn't it? Why allow the discrepancy Lion-Shannon/Lion-Kanon but not both at the same time?

it's a mix of the two worlds to show that Beatrice (who is Shannon/Kanon) and Lion cannot coexist. It is an absolutely necessary hint to show that Lion is the one who "kills" Beato. Shannon and Kanon don't coexist because there is no world where Shannon and Kanon are both there.

Then as to the "creation" of Kanon as depicted from Yasu's view...
Shannon transfers her "seed of love" to Clair and then, as if on a side note, Clair says "Oh, while you're at it, we'll make yourself a younger brother."
?! This seems kind of funny to me. Especially as he isn't shown as having any real effect after that.
I have to admit that it could make sense in combination with the appearance of Furfur & Zepar and also the theory that Yasu has some problem with gender. (Hints for that include obviously not only the fact that Yasu is never referred to as "he or she" but always by name and Lion looking androgynous as well as admitting having a complex about that - if we take Kinzo raping Beatrice II. for real this might also have a sensible explanation along with the "this body can't love/be loved flashback).
However! If Kanon was actually created to help Shannon/Yasu deal with her broken heart, then WHY did she act him out in front of other people? Gaap never really appeared as a person (with a body ) before others, as far as I can tell, so why feel the need to do so with Kanon? Especially with the risk of Jessica falling in love with him - which I still fail to understand in every Shkanon theory.

Even though Shannon no longer loves Battler, she stayed in the real world because she found that other humans are wonderful. And without a significant other, she still needs someone to be close to; someone who can understand her and be with her. This is why Kanon exists. Witches can't understand the life of a servant like another servant can, and a servant can't be a servant if they don't work as a servant.

[Cao Ni Ma]

If Kanon was a real person then chances are he couldn't have just dropped his name like he does when it suits him when he or Shannon "dies". Then the idea of all of it being illusions made by Yasu would fall apart and you'd have to find another way for the events to occur. One that doesn't use magic but still solves the locked rooms.

I dont know, I also found that scene highly metaphorical. It can be taken in a few ways, either Will corners Shannon or he unwittingly corners himself. It made it look like if he pushed hard enough she would have eventually brought Kanon with her. If she could bring him out with her, why did she hesitate? Lets say she did bring Kanon with her, what would that mean to Will?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

All cool bigemperor. But are you sure there's no "culprit" in EP1-3?

You've realized that "Yasu" recreated a sort of mystery murder live RPG on Rokkenjima, and you also realized that it was done for Battler so he could solve it.

But how exactly he was supposed to solve this mystery murder if there was no culprit? Of course the culprit of a fake murder is a fake culprit. But I think that for this to be really a murder mystery a "culprit" was necessary.
If people simply faked their own dead, this wouldn't be solvable. If this is all an act, why not acting the whole thing?

EP2 first twilight:

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

The "culprit" must face the "victims" to "kill" them in this game. Else this wouldn't be solvable.

If you realize this, then who's this "culprit"?

I want to say it's Dr. Gri-*ack*.

>_>

It was made perfectly clear that the mothers were being framed like that by episode 5. I actually noticed it by episode 4, but it was also pretty easy to say Kyrie was the culprit at the time.

Hey it's me, what else do you expect other than coming to the party late?

[Gar Logan78]

So whenever Will said "Illusions to Illusions", it meant that the twilight was just a lie? The characters were not really killed?

Doesn't that kind of take the fun out of trying to figure out how all the murders were committed in the first four games if it was all just BS?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Gar Logan78

So whenever Will said "Illusions to Illusions", it meant that the twilight was just a lie? The characters were not really killed?

Doesn't that kind of take the fun out of trying to figure out how all the murders were committed in the first four games if it was all just BS?

Only in hindsight.

You're basically reading an answer key and spoiler sheet anyway. So it's not like you can really complain about missing out on the fun of figuring out the murders anyway.

And there are a lot of mysteries that make use of the faked murder in addition to the real one, it's not new.

[Saorin]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

it's a mix of the two worlds to show that Beatrice (who is Shannon/Kanon) and Lion cannot coexist. It is an absolutely necessary hint to show that Lion is the one who "kills" Beato. Shannon and Kanon don't coexist because there is no world where Shannon and Kanon are both there.

Yeah, I was aware of the fact that it was supposed to show Beatrice wasn't there. But if Lion/Yasu never was at the orphanage, Shannon shouldn't be there either; if we go with the theory that Yasu created the Shannon persona, she couldn't actually be in Lion's kakera. Why put her in? She isn't necessary to show that Beatrice is missing, is she?
And sorry....I know Shkanon is being shoved into our faces but there are still fishy aspects to that, so I won't accept it as fact until the novel tells me that - clearly.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Even though Shannon no longer loves Battler, she stayed in the real world because she found that other humans are wonderful. And without a significant other, she still needs someone to be close to; someone who can understand her and be with her. This is why Kanon exists. Witches can't understand the life of a servant like another servant can, and a servant can't be a servant if they don't work as a servant.

Hm...so for him to be a servant he had to do the work, you mean?
I definitely see your point. But her main reason for needing support wasn't her hardships of her servant life but rather of her love life, so it didn't necessarily have to be a servant, did it?
I see where you're coming from though.

"Jessica falls in love with Shannon's other personality" and "nobody notices they are two people or cover it up" still stinks somehow...I can't make this feel right If this turns out to be true, I'll need a proper explanation for that by Ryu07...

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

If Kanon was a real person then chances are he couldn't have just dropped his name like he does when it suits him when he or Shannon "dies". Then the idea of all of it being illusions made by Yasu would fall apart and you'd have to find another way for the events to occur. One that doesn't use magic but still solves the locked rooms.

Yes, that's true but does not automatically mean that is has to eliminate all possibilites of it being NOT magic, does it? It's not like an obviously needed fact that Kanon is fictional at the moment since it hasn't been confirmed. (Not saying that it couldn't solve some problems/closed rooms.)

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I dont know, I also found that scene highly metaphorical. It can be taken in a few ways, either Will corners Shannon or he unwittingly corners himself. It made it look like if he pushed hard enough she would have eventually brought Kanon with her. If she could bring him out with her, why did she hesitate? Lets say she did bring Kanon with her, what would that mean to Will?

If I recall correctly, it was likened to a chess turn in which Will would have been the loser...but perhaps that was just my impression.

[Jan-Poo]

@Saorin

The fact that the world Bern made is a catbox is something certain. Two different worlds are mixed together, this is what was clearly specified in the story.

Now the point here is that they are only two different worlds, not a dozen.

The two worlds that Bern chose to mix together were:

1) One of your usual worlds with Shkanontrice.
2) The world where Natsuhi accepted Lion as her child.

Supposedly people that are exactly the same in both worlds do not get a double, but they do get conflicting memories (as it was shown in the Episode).

Shkanontrice and Lion however do not mix up so well, so they are both there, each with their specific memories (unlike the other people who have both).

Lion is said to be a "dead cat". So there's no question about it, in this catbox there is a superposition of two realities both existing at the same time and Lion is one of them.
The obvious conclusion is that Shkanontrice is the "alive cat". That's basically why they exist at the same time.

As for why Shannon and Kanon can't exist at the same time. That's because it's impossible in this catbox. Shkanontrice in its world is a single person, and in the other world there's only Lion. So how can you get both Shannon and Kanon at the same time?


I guess that theorically Bern could mix a world where there's only Shannon and a world where there's only Kanon. But this is not what the catbox in EP7 is about.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Yes the obvious answer would be that they cant exist at the same time. We are asking what if they could, the whole concept of this game has been to try and find all the different possibilities that could happen and choosing the one that makes the most sense given the information. Yes, Shkanontrice is the most probable option given the story in the game so far, but it also has huge problems that you cant just jump over with faulty logic.

So if Kanon and Shannon can coexist and be together at the same time, why would Shannon stall Will in bringing him over. Why would it lead to Will being cornered (if the person cornered is actually Will). My opinion would be that as long as there is a probability that Shkanontrice exist , then she would be the logical culprit in the series. This is her end goal, regardless of who the actual culprit might really be.

[Jan-Poo]

Kanon and Shannon cannot coexist at the same time in that catbox, they are just two personalities. On the other hand Lion has a body of his/her own. Lion here is not one of Yasu's personalities. Lion here is a person from another world.

[LyricalAura]

Or since Bern wants to show that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, maybe trying to force Bern to move them into the same room causes a stalemate. It'd be the equivalent of Battler forcing Beatrice to make a demon stake appear in front of him.

[Jan-Poo]

Not like Beatrice never did that in the metaworld.

And Bern herself appeared in front of Will and Lion. Which means that world wasn't a realistic one anyway. Technically she could have made appear a demon too if she wanted.

[AuraTwilight]

If Kanon was a real person then chances are he couldn't have just dropped his name like he does when it suits him when he or Shannon "dies". Then the idea of all of it being illusions made by Yasu would fall apart and you'd have to find another way for the events to occur. One that doesn't use magic but still solves the locked rooms.

I dont know, I also found that scene highly metaphorical. It can be taken in a few ways, either Will corners Shannon or he unwittingly corners himself. It made it look like if he pushed hard enough she would have eventually brought Kanon with her. If she could bring him out with her, why did she hesitate? Lets say she did bring Kanon with her, what would that mean to Will?

Will himself describes that moment as him stepping into a move that would checkmate himself, and Robot-Shannon was basically asking "are you suuuure, dumbass?"

If he had pushed the issue, he might have broken the entire Gameboard. He might have Logic Errored himself.

So whenever Will said "Illusions to Illusions", it meant that the twilight was just a lie? The characters were not really killed?

Doesn't that kind of take the fun out of trying to figure out how all the murders were committed in the first four games if it was all just BS?

It's not ALL BS. Earth to Earth.

Hm...so for him to be a servant he had to do the work, you mean?
I definitely see your point. But her main reason for needing support wasn't her hardships of her servant life but rather of her love life, so it didn't necessarily have to be a servant, did it?
I see where you're coming from though.

The only alternative is making up an imaginary boyfriend, and that's just pathetic. A servant/brother is the best route, really.

"Jessica falls in love with Shannon's other personality" and "nobody notices they are two people or cover it up" still stinks somehow...I can't make this feel right If this turns out to be true, I'll need a proper explanation for that by Ryu07...

Kinzo's dead, the servants are in on it except Gohda, who doesn't give a shit about the two of them, Krauss is retarded, Natsuhi talks to dead people and imaginary witches, and Jessica is stupid and driven by hormones and blinded by love. Everyone else is only on the island one or two times a year.

Yes the obvious answer would be that they cant exist at the same time. We are asking what if they could, the whole concept of this game has been to try and find all the different possibilities that could happen and choosing the one that makes the most sense given the information. Yes, Shkanontrice is the most probable option given the story in the game so far, but it also has huge problems that you cant just jump over with faulty logic.

No one has yet to show me any type of problem requiring faulty logic. Shkanon is only a poor disguise to us because we have a special seat in all this. The characters in the story all have huge blindspots in their knowledgebase, knew all along, or are out of their minds.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Gar Logan78

So whenever Will said "Illusions to Illusions", it meant that the twilight was just a lie? The characters were not really killed?

Doesn't that kind of take the fun out of trying to figure out how all the murders were committed in the first four games if it was all just BS?

No, it just means that some of the information we received wasn't true. For example, first game, second twilight. Illusion to illusion, the room was never locked. But the murder was real.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Not like Beatrice never did that in the metaworld.

And Bern herself appeared in front of Will and Lion. Which means that world wasn't a realistic one anyway. Technically she could have made appear a demon too if she wanted.

Arguably it was possible for Beato to make a demon appear in front of Piece Battler too, as long as she didn't mind breaking the rules of the game. The point is that according to Beato, if the game master's win condition is to convince the player of X, then directly stating X causes a stalemate because the player has no possible response. Denying X is analogous to moving your king into check, and stalemates aren't allowed in witch's chess, so a situation where the GM is forced to definitively confirm or deny X is an illegal game state. By extension, causing such a state to occur should be an illegal move.

That being the case, if Bern's ultimate goal for the game is to convince Will that "Kanon and Shannon are the same person", then Shannon would lock up from Will's move even if that statement isn't actually true.

EDIT:
Note that I'm not claiming that Shannon and Beatrice aren't the same person. I'm saying that Bern might be manipulating the information about Shannontrice to make it look like it supports Shkannontrice. I don't know what her goal for doing that would be, other than making Yasu seem like she's crazy, but that by itself is something Bern would probably be quite happy to do.

EDIT^2:
And by Shkannontrice I mean the crazy DID maid variation, not the fiction theory variation.

[m0h]

IMHO, I kinda intended the whole Robo-Shannon like this:

if Will'd have forced Kanon to manifest himself with Shanon , the whole "you'll be captured" chess comparison would have meant that Shannon would have to KILL WILL since he was "getting to capture the king" ( meant discovering the whole Shkanon plot ).

Basically, Shannon was saying:
"Do you really want to discover the truth like that? I'm gonna kill you if you do, cause i can't allow you to discover the core secret".

Being killed from the gameboard would have mean probably that "piece Will" could not investigate anymore in that fragment. Meaning game over.

[AuraTwilight]

...And why would Shannon kill Will, just because he found out about Shkanon?

Especially since he was going to pressure her into calling Kanon with the Spectator's Authority, which puts him above the Gameboard.

[witchfan]

Mind, Will presumably solved the mystery by that point, and he still asked Shannon to call Kanon. I doubt he'd like to solve the mystery in such a lame way, so that either means he got it wrong, or that the solution does not exclude Kanon from being a separate entity, which does put hurt on "regular Shkanon" theories.

[AuraTwilight]

He didn't solve shit then. He had theories, but he had no clue if they were right or not. Infact, if he solved the mystery, he could just say "Shannon" then go right back out the door.

[Saorin]

Originally Posted by witchfan

Mind, Will presumably solved the mystery by that point, and he still asked Shannon to call Kanon. I doubt he'd like to solve the mystery in such a lame way, so that either means he got it wrong, or that the solution does not exclude Kanon from being a separate entity, which does put hurt on "regular Shkanon" theories.

Yes, I was wondering about that, too. Maybe he wasn't quite set on this. But then again, why didn't it make him press the matter in another way? And he didn't think too much about it afterwards.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That being the case, if Bern's ultimate goal for the game is to convince Will that "Kanon and Shannon are the same person", then Shannon would lock up from Will's move even if that statement isn't actually true.

I like this, it would make a lot of sense... Apart from the fact that Kanon almost played no role at all in Ep7 ... even in the flashback he was kind of created on a side note und appeared once (or twice?) after that... It just feels weird to me to believe that there's all to it.. "Oh, hey, come one, we already have several personalities formed by Yasu, let's just give her yet another which does not serve a truly crucial purpose!" (This might only be the way it presented itself to me (!) though. Only being there to console Shannon felt a bit lame.)
And why the need to make him a servant who bears the One-Winged Eagle?
edit: Okay, maybe, because Yasu/Shannon has the One-Winged Eagle...but why bear of the risk of Kanon being a mere personality discovered?
Shannon also woke up from her dream and was like "Oh, a new servant is coming today." This whole "shift at the same time"-thing still seems weird.

And then again...there would be the question of why Bern would like to do that. If that really is her goal it'd rather seem like some kind of trap.

I also wondered why Will never re-addressed the question after the incident. Shouldn't he have tried to investigate that inconsistency? Or did he already know something? Hm.