(L) Hai to Gensou to Grimmgal

[Tenzen12]

Sure all of them was, but in this particular case others I didn't mentioned it didn't contributed to Manato death. They could, but it wasn't their mistakes that were exploited. As I noted before, making sure there is look out is leader responsibility if it isn't delegated to noone else.

Having Manato survive but disabled, sound indeed as interesting idea.

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I don't think he died for being reckless, there's a lot of factors to take into account, like them still being beginners and enough battle experience to deal with a situation like that.

I mean, it was their first time being ambushed, and not by regular goblins, but an organized group.
To me, it seems the goblin's plan was to first take out Manato, the healer/leader to cause confusion, then surround them and finish them off.

We all know how it went...
...now that I think about it, how many blue goblins where there? Was the leader-like goblin and the one that shot Manato the same? If so, then the guy moved pretty fast to a place he could shoot from

Yes, he acted carelessly (that might be better word than recklessly) BECAUSE lack of experience. Another reason is that group gained enough successes to get full of theirself and undersimate their enemy ability. Well some lessons have to be learnt hard way...

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I dunno about you guys, but the likes of Nanoha and Lina Inverse gave the wrong expectations of what a mage should do and can do. Not every mages are about blowing up stuff, zapping orcs by the dozens and raising the dead. Some are trying to actually help their melee friends by binding the enemy, lure them with illusions and morphing the terrain. Even in D&D tabletop games, wizards who go for fireball are usually laughed over as noobs when spells like slippery floor or sleep are seen as more usefu (because fireball have a tendency for collateral damage)l. A recent example of such a mage is Shiroe in Log Horizon.

So yeah, Shihoru is anything but useless.

I'm not trying to say that mages with Shihoru's skills are useless. I'm saying that up until this episode, Shihoru specifically has provided little to no practical help to any of the battles. Whereas Ranta has been in the center of every single battle.

Why not make it that Manako survives but is unable to walk anymore, maybe due a paralysing poison which magic can't heal as magic can heal wounds but not poison. I would have find it far more interesting if Manako had to stay home while the others go earn money for the expense life comes with.
Like the big guy with his craftman hands could build a wheelchair for him so that Manato can move around the house. And when they come home he has cooked meals ready and listens to Ranta's overblown stories about how awesome he was while he battled twelfe goblins at once. And then play with Yume some chess. And then speak with Haruhiro about the plans for the next expedition and what equipment the group gonna need. And ofc hit it off with Shihoru!!! And somehow get along with the new healer who replaced him while trying not to be too jealous of her experiencing the adventureres he cannot anymore.
Plus it could have had all the delicious self-doubt of him if it wouldn't have been better to died back then, because now he is an extra mouth his friends have to feed yet he can't earn any money himself because he cannot work as volunteer soldier anymore. Here could Shihoru come in, like as actual emotional support.

Personally I'd rather they continue on fighting monsters and doing interesting things. Not spending 50% of the next 8 episodes taking care of a invalid.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I dunno about you guys, but the likes of Nanoha and Lina Inverse gave the wrong expectations of what a mage should do and can do. Not every mages are about blowing up stuff, zapping orcs by the dozens and raising the dead. Some are trying to actually help their melee friends by binding the enemy, lure them with illusions and morphing the terrain. Even in D&D tabletop games, wizards who go for fireball are usually laughed over as noobs when spells like slippery floor or sleep are seen as more usefu (because fireball have a tendency for collateral damage)l. A recent example of such a mage is Shiroe in Log Horizon.

So yeah, Shihoru is anything but useless.

Originally Posted by moridin84

I'm not trying to say that mages with Shihoru's skills are useless. I'm saying that up until this episode, Shihoru specifically has provided little to no practical help to any of the battles. Whereas Ranta has been in the center of every single battle.

Mages at early lvls also tend to be almost useless. Once they are more experience and got a couple of spells they start shining at that point. Especially if there is a proper tank in the party.

the really useless one is Yume. A archer that can't shoot might as well change jobs.

[James Rye]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sure all of them was, but in this particular case others I didn't mentioned it didn't contributed to Manato death. They could, but it wasn't their mistakes that were exploited. As I noted before, making sure there is look out is leader responsibility if it isn't delegated to noone else.

Having Manato survive but disabled, sound indeed as interesting idea.



Yes, he acted carelessly (that might be better word than recklessly) BECAUSE lack of experience. Another reason is that group gained enough successes to get full of theirself and undersimate their enemy ability. Well some lessons have to be learnt hard way...

True dat, in the end it's the leader's burden to shoulder the failures if nobody else can be hold responsible. In this case it was a hefty price to bear though.

Especially in a "the strong eat the weak" world and with a guy who already has the mindset of not deserving to "be loved and happy". Hell, I wouldn't wonder if Manato try to kill himself in that case believing his suicide would help the others survive easier.
Here could come the priest in, like as in wise old mentor who won't teaches Manato skills for battle, but talks about different stuff he could do. After all it's not like Manato stupid. He could still be helpful. Like for example studying more about this land and its history, gathering intel, getting connections to merchants, etc. There is much to be gained for an adventurer party having a guy staying in their home city, taking care of their house, belongings as well as trying to get them better equipped with everything you need for a successful hunt.

But yeah, way more complicated to write a story about.
You had to deal not only with a whole party feeling guilty but also the target of said guilt who must feel useless staying at home and being feed, depending so much on the others (especially at the beginning), despairing at the lack of his mobility and independence, as well as losing the status he once had as leader to mere "extra mouth at home".
Much easier to have the guy just be dead and only write about the survivors feeling guilty and get over it with time and more gobo kills. -__-

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I'm not trying to say that mages with Shihoru's skills are useless. I'm saying that up until this episode, Shihoru specifically has provided little to no practical help to any of the battles. Whereas Ranta has been in the center of every single battle.


Personally I'd rather they continue on fighting monsters and doing interesting things. Not spending 50% of the next 8 episodes taking care of a invalid.

+1. Its funny people will claim ranta is shit at everything but his job but then turn around and say shihoru isnt useless. Rosed colored glasses everywhere.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Mages at early lvls also tend to be almost useless. Once they are more experience and got a couple of spells they start shining at that point. Especially if there is a proper tank in the party.

the really useless one is Yume. A archer that can't shoot might as well change jobs.

In this verse Archer does mostly Ranger stuff. If you remember she is fellow scout with Haruhiro, which is pretty big deal. Her Archer class melee skill seems to be also fairly useful.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I dunno about you guys, but the likes of Nanoha and Lina Inverse gave the wrong expectations of what a mage should do and can do. Not every mages are about blowing up stuff, zapping orcs by the dozens and raising the dead. Some are trying to actually help their melee friends by binding the enemy, lure them with illusions and morphing the terrain. Even in D&D tabletop games, wizards who go for fireball are usually laughed over as noobs when spells like slippery floor or sleep are seen as more usefu (because fireball have a tendency for collateral damage)l. A recent example of such a mage is Shiroe in Log Horizon.

So yeah, Shihoru is anything but useless.

That's just Shihoru picking a niche that fits her, but the other members have been doing that too. For example, there's a small gap between Moguzo and Shihoru. The problem with Shihoru being a deadweight is that she's someone who relies, not someone who can be relied upon (yet). Haruhiro, Moguzo, Ranta and Yume can more or less cover for each other. Manato takes most of the groups errors upon himself, and then it usually is up to someone to cover for Shihoru. Until this episode, she wasn't able to cover for her team. But while she improves, others are improving as well.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Mages at early lvls also tend to be almost useless. Once they are more experience and got a couple of spells they start shining at that point. Especially if there is a proper tank in the party.

the really useless one is Yume. A archer that can't shoot might as well change jobs.

The problem with Yume is that she doesn't conpensate for that as much. For example, making traps and scouting is something Haru and Yume should do. She also would have benefited heavily from getting that crossbow from the goblins.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

1) It doesn't matter if it's linear or not. Narrative givesore weight their daily lifes than to some great adventures. It goes so far make clear slying goblins count as job. Morning they wakes up. Have breakfast, slay goblins, have some fun in city and after dinner go sleep. That's their life

again according to just the amount of time they are shown fighting or surviving, that is verfiably false. SoL means their is a lack of a major narrative and everything is episodic. the show so far has been anything but that as each episode directly depends on what happened previously, on top of the overall tone being that of desperation

2) There are no implications they stayed longer than intended. Also people can't be non-stop in state of alert, have a moment to relax is important too
Of course common sense would be have someone stand on watch but it seems team leader didn't thought that far another thing that should be common is not separate ownself from others and have scouts search area beforehand.So put it bluntly person responsible for Manato death is Manato himself and MAYBE Haruhiro in lesser extend.

except you know, them being ambushed by enemies who just showed up or were tracking them. they are on a mission within a battlefield, not being on hi-alert 24/7 is the ultimate sign of incompetence. yeah i agree that manato's death was largely his own fault, but that action didn't help either. and as a scout marksman, it's Yumes job to be vigilant of long distance threats

3)Exactly battle is their job, but narratively all that matter is noting they doing it. It doesn't need to be flashy or have more than few minutes of screentime per episode.We also don't need see all details of office lady or factory worker job when we watch shows featuring them. Even this episode didn't need more focus on battle than it got. As long as Manato dies that all that mattered.

so how do you explain the training montages, the emphasis that they are poorly trained, and the colausal failures that were there first missions? if manato's death is the result of not being compatent at his job, and that is the tip off point for them to develop more, how is battle not at the forefront of the story? answer: it is

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Oh, he was. It's just that, this time, he just didn't have an occasion to go on one of his stupid screaming sessions. Which could be more down to screen time than anything.
no he wasn't. he stops for two seconds to brag before becoming the joke of the room but he was no louder than them. obnoxious sure

Another way to see it is that they're just as good (bad) as he is at doing his job, in addition to doing theirs.

except he was the one who landed the majority of the blows so no.


I'm not. They're all variously incompetent. But he's loud, stupid, and disruptive. In combat, he's more useful than not. Barely. Outside of it, he's toxic.

he's toxic in conversation but pulls his own weight. something neither of the moe blobs have going for them. the first episode shows that the boys rotate the breakfast duties. moguzo is the primary cook and manato manages the money an the fight strats. the girls?


It wasn't common sense, just impatience and panic. Which, yes, was right in this case, but so what? By then, it was too late for Manato, no matter what they did.

so telling shihoru that it makes no sense to have him meditate while he's bleeding out isn't common sense? to quote you, that's hilarious. he did something right to help the situation, she didn't. the result doesn't change that.


Hilarious.

not as hilarious as missing at point blank range and being a stuttering moron when the going gets tough


He has a demon. Possibly. What the demon is useful for, if anything, remains to be seen.

it was said in the episode that the demon can do that


Fine. He's the easiest to replace. Anyone who can swing a sword in a goblin's general direction can be as useful as he is.

and yet he has the highest body count, regardless of your poor excuse that they let him do that which was debunked by the kills they got on their own this episode. sure buddy, keep believing that. becuase having him kill all the goblins when he only needs to kill one makes perfect sense. after all there is no risk of leaving a goblin half dead just so he can kill it... oh wait



She's a support mage, not a damage dealer. That doesn't make her useless.
if she can't even do her own role effectively, she is entirely useless. she's not doing much else

responses in bold

[Tenzen12]

Avarage batltle per episode is around 4 minutes long, that's about as long as Haruhiro monologue about new trunks

That doesn't say anything about how long their breaks usually are. Plus Yume was far behind Manato who went ahead on his own. Focus 24/7 is impossible for normal people. Without breaks ability concentrate go down immensely.

So why Yume being "Moe" lasted longer than whole battle?

[moridin84]

It is not like the fight being longer means it would have been better. Short but dangerous fights is how this anime has gone so far anyway.

[Tenzen12]

I don't particularly disagree with that.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Avarage batltle per episode is around 4 minutes long, that's about as long as Haruhiro monologue about new trunks

That doesn't say anything about how long their breaks usually are. Plus Yume was far behind Manato who went ahead on his own. Focus 24/7 is impossible for normal people. Without breaks ability concentrate go down immensely.

So why Yume being "Moe" lasted longer than whole battle?

way to leave out that each episode has either more then one battle or that their actions elsewhere are either directly linked to battle or exist because of the spoils of said battle. cherrypicking i see

you don't take breaks in enemy territory and if you have no choice but to keep someone on watch. this is basic common sense here. securing your safety comes before replenishment. it's better to be caught while hungry than with you paints down.

humoring you here, because
A. that battle serves only to setup manatos death and the groups development
B. wasn't the only battle
C. directly effects the plot of the next episodes to come.

dont tell me you think yume being moe was the whole point of the episode just because it lasted marginally longer

[jzmagic]

Did the ending feel lazy to anyone else? The sequence of stills and the final scene which lingered. Also I felt nothing for Manato's death. Despite the slow pacing, I just don't think he was developed well enough for his death to be impactful.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by jzmagic

Did the ending feel lazy to anyone else? The sequence of stills and the final scene which lingered. Also I felt nothing for Manato's death. Despite the slow pacing, I just don't think he was developed well enough for his death to be impactful.

according to some his death wasn't meant to have impact as it was a plot device to develop the group. manato was a sacrificial lamb of sorts.

and yeah the still were lazy as f%$#

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by jzmagic

Did the ending feel lazy to anyone else? The sequence of stills and the final scene which lingered. Also I felt nothing for Manato's death. Despite the slow pacing, I just don't think he was developed well enough for his death to be impactful.

Other than the final scene hanging for maybe a second or two too long? No, not really.

I'm not sure why some get too absorbed in the impact on Manato's death on themselves. The impact is supposed to be on how that death hits the group. Which is why it was important to spend the time on those stills. They could have just sped through it all and lost all the impact and I'm glad they didn't do that.

[bakato]

I never got to say this before, but I'm sure as hell glad Haruhiro isn't voiced by Matsuoka.

[Talukita]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Other than the final scene hanging for maybe a second or two too long? No, not really.

I'm not sure why some get too absorbed in the impact on Manato's death on themselves. The impact is supposed to be on how that death hits the group. Which is why it was important to spend the time on those stills. They could have just sped through it all and lost all the impact and I'm glad they didn't do that.

Probably because there are plenty people who only like Manato (even through trivia stuffs like look, voice or general kindness. It may sound... shallow? but we all have that moment). So when your fave character dies just for the sake of developing the rest of characters who you don't care about, it kinda hurts somewhat.

His death is definitely much more controversial in the Anime communities from what I have seen so far, once again due to slight different or portrayal. In the novel, literally everyone reaction is "Oh, he is dead, RIP dude" and quickly move forward when they introduce new characters in the future.

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by Sides

For instance some people see Moguzo as an tank, but in that world if you get hit you are pretty much done. In the scene where he was fighting against a goblin, he never purposely try to take damage, to keep its attention, but instead he was fighting to win.

He's the tank, but more in the medieval sense of it rather than the RPG sense. He's their front line, who's basically trying to interpose himself between the monsters and the party's back line. But realistically it's no surprise most people look like they'd go down in one hit. Look at this party, it quite frankly looks like only two people have any sort of viable armour, Moguzo who is clearly the most armoured, and Ranta who has some sort of light armour on. No one else has anything on that looks like it could even come close to stopping a sword swing.

[jzmagic]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Other than the final scene hanging for maybe a second or two too long? No, not really.

I'm not sure why some get too absorbed in the impact on Manato's death on themselves. The impact is supposed to be on how that death hits the group. Which is why it was important to spend the time on those stills. They could have just sped through it all and lost all the impact and I'm glad they didn't do that.

I think it's pretty obvious that they were going for the emotional death here which is supposed to make the audience feel something. The insert song, the stills of everyone mourning, and the final scene lingering, are all cues, but everything just fell flat.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by jzmagic

I think it's pretty obvious that they were going for the emotional death here which is supposed to make the audience feel something. The insert song, the stills of everyone mourning, and the final scene lingering, are all cues, but everything just fell flat.

Sure, but was it supposed to make you feel for Manato, or the rest of the group? I thought it succeeded well enough at the latter.