2012-07-07, 15:12 | Link #101 | |||||
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2012-07-07, 17:31 | Link #102 |
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When was it stated that Orochimaru couldn't use the full potential of his ET zombies? We also know that Orochimaru didn't have to have full control of his zombies, because he inserted the control tags after the summoning.
It doesn't make sense to me that a soul bound to a body and converted into the original body doesn't have have all of its abilities in life. I took Kabuto's statement to mean he could control more zombies than Orochimaru could and could use them in more versatile ways - like when he took over Muu. |
2012-07-07, 18:05 | Link #103 | |
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But maybe I'm reading it wrong altogether, and they already told us that Orochimaru is the person that knows everything...
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2012-07-07, 19:44 | Link #104 | |
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Kabuto made that obvious already. Orochi was involved in most of the things that happened in the manga, directly or indirectly. He created Yamato, he made Danzou's body, he made most of what Kabuto was using, he was around Konoha when most of the big events happened. He had accesss to Konoha's secret jutsu like Edo-Tensei, maybe he was even there to see Nagato's rinnegan rampage against Danzou and Hanzou. Kabuto stated that they knew about the sharingan's progression into rinnegan, and knowing Orochimaru we can assume he was after more than just the sharingan, he most likely wanted to evolve it into the rinnegan, so Orochimaru most likely expected that he can awaken the rinnegan once he is in Sasuke's body. Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-07-07 at 19:57. |
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2012-07-07, 19:54 | Link #105 | ||
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The most likely speculation, though, is that Orochimaru simply ordered the zombies to play around with Sarutobi. |
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2012-07-07, 22:57 | Link #106 | ||
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The latter explanation is just a fan-interpretation since these two things are logically irreconcilable. There are other interpretations, some more valid, some less valid - for example, james has a great interpretation above. But to state as an unequivocal fact that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei zombies couldn't use their full powers is wrong. These are all nothing more than our attempts to paper over a gaping plot hole in the story. My personal preference is just to ignore the logical inconsistency and accept both things - there is no reason a story has to be consistent except that we usually prefer them that way. In other words, for me no explanation is required: Orochimaru's Edo Tensei zombies are normal, Hashirama used all the power he had that was required to kill Hiruzen in that fight, and Hashirama is also ungodly strong in contradiction to what we saw there. Quote:
But like Hashirama, I am accept it without deeper thought, mostly because it's cool. Although even the Rule of Cool is being stretched a little bit for me when any Uchiha apparently can pull a magic Get-Out-Of-Edo-Tensei-Free card out of the deck. |
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2012-07-08, 03:41 | Link #110 | |||||
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Fine... I'll put some effort in just this once...
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Looking at it another way, the 3rd Hokage was said to be the "God of Shinobi" knew every Jutsu in Konoha, yet the scale of his battle with Orochimaru was nothing compared to what we've seen after. All the Kages since (from different villages included) have shown tremendous ability beyond what the 3rd showed during his battle. Does this mean he's weaker? No, its simply inflation of powers as the manga goes on. Now if you were really following my point from the beginning instead of being a biased Itachi fanboy, you'd see where I was going when I said Kish never meant for Harashima to be the powerhouse he is now. It simply makes no sense when you realize that Orochimaru could have used him to beat Itachi. Quote:
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It goes beyond being a god-like ninja. Naruto is pretty up there in terms of power now and yet he would fall to a single Tsukuyomi. The problem is that the requirements for defeating that Jutsu are so steep. You need to be an Uchiha (pretty much extinct), a Rinnegan user (pretty much 1 person in the world) or your maniac ninja turned puppet who doesn't have a chakra circulation to manipulate. Also Kabuto wasn't immune to Genjutsu.. he blocked out his vision. Something you apparently don't think Orochimaru could have done (close his eyes!) after summoning Edo Zombies and letting them do the dirty work. There... you made me write a wall of text all because you can't accept 1 single point. Harashima was never suppose to be this powerful in the beginning as Orochimaru would have used him to beat Itachi! All of your assumptions are merely you trying to explain away a giant plot hole. Even after I said in my initial post that I'm sure the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru.. that still didn't satisfy your Itachi Fanboyism I guess. Anways I'm done with this conversation, take away from it what you will.
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2012-07-08, 05:56 | Link #111 | |
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You can rationalize their strength (or lack there of) with two other things I think : First the strongest state of Edo Tensei is when the deads are aware, in control of their actions and willing to fight. Oro (who might have been aware of the jutsu weakness) completely controled their bodies and erased their personality so that they couldn't possibly release themselves but in doing so made them little more than puppets. It wasn't Hashirama and his brother fighting, it was Orochimaru manipulating powerfull tools. Secondly many forgot that the battlefield was severely limited to a single rooftop where they couldn't use over the scale (litteraly) jutsu. Take what Edo-Madara has done until now and remove all jutsu that can't fit within the barrier which confined them and suddenly you have no perfect Susanoo, no meteor, no deadly forest nor two dozens of Susanoo, etc. Now of course the real answer is the fact that powerscaling has dramatically increased in the last ~450 chapters but taking into account the facts that the Senju brothers weren't meant to kill Sarutobi quickly, were only mindless machines and could only use close range ninjutsu make things a little less hard to swallow. Last edited by Hunter; 2012-07-08 at 06:07. |
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2012-07-08, 06:47 | Link #112 | ||
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My only real annoyance with Naruto is about the anime, not the manga: it just doesn't live up to the quality of the manga. The producers of the anime should be like this producer, and then everything about Naruto would be perfect. |
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2012-07-08, 11:23 | Link #113 | |
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@vindi89. no offense, but you're just all over the place and the assumptions you are making are too wild to keep me interested in debating. just because a technique ends with someone's death doesn't mean that the author didn't like it anymore. it means that it was unique to that individual. it wouldn't be as interesting if sasuke was a carbon copy of itachi in techniques. he is already too close as it is imho. but the key difference is that itachi is more of a cerebral fighter (for which tsukiomi is perfect) and sasuke is more of a physical fighter (for which manipulation of amaterasu is perfect). madara is of course the most brutal fighter and sasuke fits somewhere in between the two also, you insist that its boring to readers to have sharingan staredowns, but you mean to say that you find them boring. i do not. its silly and delusional to think of your own preferences as being that of all readers. edit: just to add about the 1st and 2nd ET zombies. i dont think they would have attacked sarutobi until orochimaru put the control talismens in their heads. the 3 were just talking. so i still argue that orochimaru's technique was inferior to kabuto's since kabuto's talismen allowed for his direction while still allowing the zombies to use all their secret techniques at their own will. perhaps orochimaru could have done the same, we dont know, but we cant just assume that he did. its as hunter said, that orochimaru wanted them as puppets to torture sarutobi, but that doesnt equate to him knowing of and being able to use kabuto's style of talismens if he wanted. a lot of time passed since the first ET and kabuto was clearly working on improving the technique. he never mentioned that his talismens were ones orochimaru invented and just never used. he said they were his own Last edited by itachi-san314; 2012-07-08 at 12:23. |
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2012-07-08, 15:20 | Link #114 | |
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I really do applaud you for trying to find an answer to these issues within the context of the manga, but you're really only addressing the problem at the surface rather than looking at the root. That's why we won't agree. Try to open your mind and perspective a bit.
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2012-07-08, 19:14 | Link #115 | |
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2012-07-08, 19:39 | Link #116 |
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Not sure if this was in the anime only but once they realized they were zombies one of the brothers mentioned that they would now have to fight Sarutobi. So I think they would of ended up fighting him anyways much like the others we've recently seen. They likely would have told Sarutobi what they were going to be doing unless Oro put those talismens in them.
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2012-07-09, 00:51 | Link #117 | |
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So whatever happens to Naruto happens to everyone else right? Oh how about that time when Kakashi told Gai and the other Jounins not to look into Itachi's eyes. What about when Gai attacked Itachi without looking at his eyes? Or wait what about the time that Orochi wannabe (Kabuto) blocked out his eyes. Were they put into a Genjutsu too? I'm sorry but you're just being petty now, the fact that I need to debate with you on whether a sight based Genjutsu can be avoided by closing one's eyes speaks volumes. Especially since we've had a similar senario already happen in the manga. Kakashi took Itachi's attention and 3 Jounins behind him had their eyes closed. If one of the characters being spoken about here wasn't named Itachi, I have a feeling you wouldn't be debating (and failing) so hard here.
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Last edited by Vindi89; 2012-07-09 at 05:16. |
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2012-07-09, 14:27 | Link #118 | ||
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nope. that's silly
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2012-07-09, 16:06 | Link #119 | ||
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You brought up Naruto's (who didn't even shield his vision) incompetency at dealing with a finger Genjutsu, to compare to Orochimaru who was vastly superior to Naruto at that point.
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Me: Orochimaru should have used Edo 1st Hokage to beat Itachi. It makes no sense though since the author intended Itachi>Orochimaru. (This is a plot hole) You: (trying to explain the plot hole away) Itachi puts anyone who tries to attack him into an instant mind rape. Then end. Me: Orochimaru doesn't even need to look at Itachi to fight him. Just have Edo 1st Hokage deal with him. At this point you initiated random petty arguments and work arounds instead of addressing that issue. So getting back to your paragraph no Orochimaru wouldn't be fighting him with his eyes closed. The Edo Zombie would. Are you following along now? Now that you FINALLY agree that not looking at Itachi in some way or form is a "precaution to take against itachi for sure". Quote:
As far as I'm concerned I made my point. Which I will repeat for you again since apparently you have a hard time following along: The 1st Hokage was never meant to be this strong, it makes no sense that Orochimaru didn't use him to defeat Itachi at anypoint after acquiring that ability.
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