JPOP: Decline and the silence of the fans.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by asaqe

We are veering off the original intent of the topic which is to discuss the problem of JPOP being crippled by the popularity of KPOP and other factors and mdo7's post involving KPOP utterly demolishing JPOP.

Well I apologize if it looks like it, but it wasn't my intention to do that. But I assure you whatever I said is within scope of the original argument. I'll say Japan is sort of falling behind when it comes to music and dramas on the global scale.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

You see, the thing I hate about throwing the whole xenophobic word around is that it feels like the US companies are just putting the blame on the Japanese side so they themselves don't get the blame from the English speaking audience which might not be looking at the whole picture. But if you go back far enough in the 90s and early 00s, we also knew that it was the US companies themselves whom were engaged in price bidding wars so as to get their hands on any sort of new anime stuff (Full Metal Alchemist was reportedly VERY expensive to buy) - but did any of them ever thought about *not* paying for the ridiculous prices the Japanese demanded? No, every US licencor had big egos and didn't want to miss out and screwed it up for not only themselves, but pretty much the entire world. So it isn't *just* the doings of the Japanese side (but they aren't blameless, they should have done due diligence to make sure the US companies could actually pay what they say they could on the contracts, so again, pure business incompetence working here), but the US side had contributed to this as well by inflating the expectation of the Japanese side. And due to this some US anime companies stretched themselves so far that they went under and/or filed for Chapter 11 (*cough* ADV *cough* but oh look they came back under a different name! woohoo freed from legal obligations to pay their debt back to the Japanese!). It's no wonder the Japanese starts not trusting the US side - this isn't xenophobic, it's common business sense!

This is why I say Answerman is wrong.

Also you must remember that the reason why licensing is such a legal mess is because the Japanese originally set up the consortium model to spread out the risk it took to make anime - this was a very good business move for them for their local market but has the unintended consequences of making the licensing a bit grey, but this also has nothing to do with being xenophobic either because it wasn't like the Japanese people banded together to say "hey let's form consortiums so we can protect ourselves from the evil gaijins!" - they just never considered that people might actually want to license their stuff! Again, call that short-sighted, ignorance, stupid and whatever, but it's NOT xenophobic.

I'll blame both sides for it. But I still think Japanese may have xenophobic practices in business. There are allegations of xenophobia in Japanese business. Maybe the anime/manga industry, J-dramas, and J-music entertainment industry could be affected by xenophobia, maybe you didn't do enough investigation to find out that xenophobia are probably more widespread then you think.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Again it's not being xenophobic. Heck, Japan is now letting *China* of all places do simcast. China, the Kingdom of Piracy and currently Japan's arch enemy in territory disputes. How could you call that xenophobic?

Yet Funimation get a order from a anime company to stop simulcasting Fractale after a leak, the same happen to One Piece after it leak. Has there been any of that for China (episode leaking before simulcast and simulcast got canceled or put on hold), if it doesn't, then I think whoever allow China to simulcast anime despite piracy risk is probably pro-China and probably scare not to offend the Chinese govt and their state-owned companies. I mean why the hell does Funimation get punished, and yet allow China which is known to have done piracy to do simulcast despite the risk of episode leak. See that's sort of selective xenophobia, and ignorance. Japanese anime companies punish Funimation for episode leak, while allowing China to do simulcast when that country have piracy problem and I have to assume episodes leaking in China may have happened but either is not reported or the Chinese state-owned companies paid (or should I say bribed) the anime production companies in Japan to cover up the leak and not shut down the simulcast. I guess if Funimation had billions or trillions of dollar, they can pay hush money/bribery money to anime production to continue the simulcast and cover-up any reports of episode leak before simulcast.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

We all know that Kpop is killing Jpop in the export scene, everyone can see that (even if they don't want to), the only thing worth discussing is why that is so. mdo7 was the first hypothesis that the Jpop decline might be due to Japan being xenophobic by bringing up similarities to anime and j-drama and Answerman's rant on the subject, I'm correcting him by saying why Answerman is wrong.

Also something that Answerman is also wrong about licensing Jpop - the licensing of Jpop for internet streaming for example is actually trivially easy - you can go through JASRAC (the Japanese equivalent to RIAA), which governs something like over 90% of ALL Japanese commercial music rights. Flip over any commercial Jpop or anime or seiyuu CD that is NOT doujin and I would guarantee that 99% of the time you would see the JASRAC logo - which means you could obtain the rights to the songs on that CD from JASRAC. JASRAC has an English website so you can go and read it. No traps and legal grey or whatever. It's bloody expensive (that's why no one wants to license them herp derp), but it's not HARD/impossible/xenophobically setup with roadblocks for foreigners like Answerman is making it out to be. Go read JASRAC's terms for internet download/streaming here for yourselves instead of listening to the nonsense response from Answerman. And of course the reason why nobody is wanting to license these is because for the price you will end up paying for doing things the legal way, you've probably already lost the business to casual piracy and the diehard fans which would buy CDs for collection would rather buy the Japanese CDs anyway.

So this goes back full circle to why the Japanese don't do it themselves - which we've already covered. The Japanese is reactionary and was in a position where they don't think the other markets (except the USA) yield them enough return to bother doing it themselves. So they concentrate on the domestic market and when it comes to overseas market they'd rather sit on their thumbs and wait for someone to come to them instead.

I read about the JASRAC on Wikipedia, it looks like this agency had suffered criticism for anti-monopoly practices and other stuff. Yeah maybe this is probably one of the main factor for why J-pop, and J-dramas licensing is very difficult and the reason why J-pop can't be globalized, that and Japan's xenophobic practice could also impede that. BTW, I look at the link, I do agree it's ridiculous with their price. They need to be either dismantled or reformed. I'll go back to Answerman thread and post this up.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Since 2010, K-pop got increasingly popular, but I'm not sure about J-pop. In 2011, I think things got worsened Japan was because of the earthquake, tsunami and Fukushima incident. Since then, Japan was probably more focused on the state of getting its country to stand together. For that, they relied less on overseas matter and more on domestic reconstruction. Right now, I think things is getting better in Japan.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

After the Earthquake and Fukushima, tourism for Japan decline and there's been a drop in tourism in Japan due to that event (along with strong yen), also because of that, Japan tourism Agency tried to give away 10,000 free tickets to foreign visitors.

Speaking of South Korea, because of the Hallyu Wave, there's been a huge spike of inbound tourists going to South Korea over Japan. I believe tourism in South Korea last month just hit 12 million.



Picture above: number of tourists coming to South Korea



picture above: the demographic of Korea's tourist

Originally Posted by sa547

To add: safe, wholesome, pure, perfection, and dominating. Which is why I wasn't sold in it... I feel intimidated than I want to listen.

Not only that, they're more talented, and K-pop artists/idols can sing in multiple languages (Japanese, English, Chinese. I've seen some other K-pop group that can sing in Spanish, French, and other languages). So yeah that's what give K-pop advantages over J-pop. If J-pop can sing in Korean and Chinese then they can be able to compete with K-pop on the international scale.

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by mdo7

After the Earthquake and Fukushima, tourism for Japan decline and there's been a drop in tourism in Japan due to that event (along with strong yen), also because of that, Japan tourism Agency tried to give away 10,000 free tickets to foreign visitors.

Speaking of South Korea, because of the Hallyu Wave, there's been a huge spike of inbound tourists going to South Korea over Japan. I believe tourism in South Korea last month just hit 12 million.



Picture above: number of tourists coming to South Korea



picture above: the demographic of Korea's tourist

Decline in tourism was also strongly caused by the paranoia over the fear of radiation exposure, even the slightest exposure. Right now, I expect it's getting better as far as the radiation issue has contained to minimum.

Not only that, they're more talented, and K-pop artists/idols can sing in multiple languages (Japanese, English, Chinese. I've seen some other K-pop group that can sing in Spanish, French, and other languages). So yeah that's what give K-pop advantages over J-pop. If J-pop can sing in Korean and Chinese then they can be able to compete with K-pop on the international scale.

Oh, so this support your criticism of Japan's "xenophobia" and "national pride" that refuses to do anything other than Japanese and English.

I don't get why xenophobia is a big deal for undermining Japan's growth & development in international matters, but I think it's the people (especially old generation of pre-90s) prefer to stick to old/traditional mentality, rather than trying new stuffs overseas and further utilizing their talents on something non-Japanese. You can say those generations aren't as open-minded as the Koreans do and easily get alienated that is not Japanese or discouraging people to have their talents to be non-Japanese, lacking the stomach to try and learn foreign stuffs; same goes to anything that's not based on US culture. But I'm not sure if a younger generations do think differently than them. To compete with K-pop, I think Chinese would be a great idea to expand J-pop talents, since Chinese will become an international language along with English. Only if they wanted to change their mentality, as well as hopefully the young generation could contribute something better for the foreign interest to Japan.

Another factor contributed to this was also has something to do with 'US deadlock' as they relies too much on the US for too long, and did not do much on expanding its interest outside Japan and US. Even better if they do imports outside US market. Russia is now expanding its diplomacy to Japan, as they established a gas pipeline to Japan. Hoping to mutually provide more business opportunities and foreign interests on each other. As well as to solve the Kuril dispute issues.

Damn, this sounds way out of line here. I'm not sure how long this is gonna stay on-topic.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by mdo7

I'll blame both sides for it.

As do I.

But I still think Japanese may have xenophobic practices in business. There are allegations of xenophobia in Japanese business.

This article you posted doesn't really show xenophobia at all, but rather it is what I would call the Japanese tendency to do superficial changes before actually implementing real changes.

Maybe the anime/manga industry, J-dramas, and J-music entertainment industry could be affected by xenophobia, maybe you didn't do enough investigation to find out that xenophobia are probably more widespread then you think.

Anecdotal and all that and without disclosing my identity let's just say that with more than 6 years of experience living in Japan and having dealt with the anime, manga, game and electronics industry first hand as part of my work career I have my fair share of insight inside the way Japanese entertainment industry works. It's really not xenophobia at work here, just pure business ignorance in 90% of the cases as the anime/manga/game industry in Japan severely lacks people with formal business education and mindset (and this is not due to xenophobia either, just that the industry is by otaku for otaku and doesn't attract outside talents and different thinking), while the remaining 10% is a difference in business culture which gets perceived by outsiders as being xenophobic (but you can argue the foreigners are being "xenophobic" of Japanese business culture too, it goes both ways as one country's common sense could be a taboo in another). For the anime and manga industry where salary is low it simply doesn't attract the talent to change the business behavior and culture. But you don't have to take my word or for it, I think the fact that I'm able to debunk Answerman's claims should give credence for my words.

Has there been any of that for China (episode leaking before simulcast and simulcast got canceled or put on hold)

Surprisingly, China had been pretty good with keeping leaks at a minimum (none so far). There are actually more cases of episodes being leak from within the outsourcing animation companies.

I guess if Funimation had billions or trillions of dollar, they can pay hush money/bribery money to anime production to continue the simulcast and cover-up any reports of episode leak before simulcast.[/B]

This is a matter of trust, not money. Japanese businesses places trust over money a lot of the times, once that trust is gone it's very hard to get it back, no matter the amount of money you have.

I read about the JASRAC on Wikipedia, it looks like this agency had suffered criticism for anti-monopoly practices and other stuff. Yeah maybe this is probably one of the main factor for why J-pop, and J-dramas licensing is very difficult and the reason why J-pop can't be globalized, that and Japan's xenophobic practice could also impede that.

There's nothing xenophobic about JASRAC's policy though - in fact it is stand practice globally. Go read up on their international affiliates and see that is preciously how every other country does their music licensing. Sometimes you may just have to accept that either a) the content you are trying to sell might not be as popular as you think, thus b) the pricing you placed on your content based on this assumption that it is popular is actually wrong.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Xero8420

...but I think it's the people (especially old generation of pre-90s) prefer to stick to old/traditional mentality, rather than trying new stuffs overseas and further utilizing their talents on something non-Japanese. You can say those generations aren't as open-minded as the Koreans do and easily get alienated that is not Japanese or discouraging people to have their talents to be non-Japanese, lacking the stomach to try and learn foreign stuffs; same goes to anything that's not based on US culture. But I'm not sure if a younger generations do think differently than them. To compete with K-pop, I think Chinese would be a great idea to expand J-pop talents, since Chinese will become an international language along with English. Only if they wanted to change their mentality, as well as hopefully the young generation could contribute something better for the foreign interest to Japan.

Those are the people I would go as far as to call them as the wankers who prevent Japan from living with its time. Such people should have been crucified a long time ago for being over-conservative. I wish the younger generation can grow some balls and say what need to be said about the old over-conservative wankers.

As you said, there's a need for the younger generation to try several languages. Not just English, but anything else that could do to win other markets. I think Germany could be a good place to start since the largest Japanese expatriate group lives in Germany. From there, take over Europe one step at the time.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Another factor contributed to this was also has something to do with 'US deadlock' as they relies too much on the US for too long, and did not do much on expanding its interest outside Japan and US. Even better if they do imports outside US market. Russia is now expanding its diplomacy to Japan, as they established a gas pipeline to Japan. Hoping to mutually provide more business opportunities and foreign interests on each other. As well as to solve the Kuril dispute issues.

That's strange to some extent because I remember a time when France was a huge market for licencing anime series. I was born in the 1980s and I remember a time when French-licenced anime series were airing on TV here in Canada since the late 1970s up to the 1990s. Although I was not fully aware of it, my first contact with anime came from French-dubbed series. What happened since the 1990s, I don't know. But a serious link needs to be reestablished there as well as with the rest of Europe in order to regain that upper hand.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

That's strange to some extent because I remember a time when France was a huge market for licencing anime series. I was born in the 1980s and I remember a time when French-licenced anime series were airing on TV here in Canada since the late 1970s up to the 1990s. Although I was not fully aware of it, my first contact with anime came from French-dubbed series. What happened since the 1990s, I don't know. But a serious link needs to be reestablished there as well as with the rest of Europe in order to regain that upper hand.

The US anime bubble happened in the mid 90s, that's what happened.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Oh, so this support your criticism of Japan's "xenophobia" and "national pride" that refuses to do anything other than Japanese and English.

I don't get why xenophobia is a big deal for undermining Japan's growth & development in international matters, but I think it's the people (especially old generation of pre-90s) prefer to stick to old/traditional mentality, rather than trying new stuffs overseas and further utilizing their talents on something non-Japanese. You can say those generations aren't as open-minded as the Koreans do and easily get alienated that is not Japanese or discouraging people to have their talents to be non-Japanese, lacking the stomach to try and learn foreign stuffs; same goes to anything that's not based on US culture. But I'm not sure if a younger generations do think differently than them. To compete with K-pop, I think Chinese would be a great idea to expand J-pop talents, since Chinese will become an international language along with English. Only if they wanted to change their mentality, as well as hopefully the young generation could contribute something better for the foreign interest to Japan.

Another factor contributed to this was also has something to do with 'US deadlock' as they relies too much on the US for too long, and did not do much on expanding its interest outside Japan and US. Even better if they do imports outside US market. Russia is now expanding its diplomacy to Japan, as they established a gas pipeline to Japan. Hoping to mutually provide more business opportunities and foreign interests on each other. As well as to solve the Kuril dispute issues.

Damn, this sounds way out of line here. I'm not sure how long this is gonna stay on-topic.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Those are the people I would go as far as to call them as the wankers who prevent Japan from living with its time. Such people should have been crucified a long time ago for being over-conservative. I wish the younger generation can grow some balls and say what need to be said about the old over-conservative wankers.

As you said, there's a need for the younger generation to try several languages. Not just English, but anything else that could do to win other markets. I think Germany could be a good place to start since the largest Japanese expatriate group lives in Germany. From there, take over Europe one step at the time.



That's strange to some extent because I remember a time when France was a huge market for licencing anime series. I was born in the 1980s and I remember a time when French-licenced anime series were airing on TV here in Canada since the late 1970s up to the 1990s. Although I was not fully aware of it, my first contact with anime came from French-dubbed series. What happened since the 1990s, I don't know. But a serious link needs to be reestablished there as well as with the rest of Europe in order to regain that upper hand.

Well I agreed with both of you on what you said. Yes I want to see J-pop being able to sing in other languages other then Japanese and English. Yes, I want them to sing in Chinese. But I want them to also sing in Korean too to show South Korea that J-pop can compete with K-pop on a global scale. Taiwanese pop artists/idols (both present and future) may try to enter the Korean market to show South Korea that they can compete with K-pop too.

If we can get J-pop artists/idols to sign with a Korean labels/agencies and crossover to K-pop, then J-pop artists/idols can get a lot of international attention. How do I know this will work??

Case in example: The UK girl group, Little Mix did a Korean-language version of one of their song.

The news of Little Mix doing a Korean-language version of their song, Wings, got a lot of attention on mainstream music news, it got even a lot of K-pop fans attention to that group just for doing a Korean version of their original English song. When I saw that, I thought: "that's how J-pop artists/idols can get international attention, crossover to K-pop!!!"

I think J-pop artists/idols should sign under Korean labels/agencies like:

-AKB48 and EXILE should sign under SM Entertainment (the same company behind Super Junior, Girls Generation, SHINee, TVXQ, f(x), BoA, and EXO) for their Korean-language debut. EXILE and AKB48 can take part in SMTown Live world tour. Also SM can make subunits like make a subunit consist of EXILE (Hiro, Atsushi, Akira, Nesmith), Super Junior (Leeteuk, Siwon, Eunhyuk, Heechul, Donghae, Kyuhyun, and Henry), and EXO (Kris, Suho, Kai, and Luhan). This would be the ultimate boygroup subunit Asia and the whole world would ever see. Yes this subunit would sing Korean, Chinese, Japanese, and English. Maybe SM can make a subunit consist of SNSD, f(x), and AKB48 like maybe make one with Seohyun, Sooyoung, Hyeyeon, Jessica, Krystal, Victoria, Luna, Jurina Matsui, Mariya Suzuki, and Mayu Watanabe. The same applied, they will sing in Korean, English, Chinese, and Japanese. Also EXILE can be a opening act for future Super Junior Super Show tour. The same for AKB48, SM can set up a real world tour for them instead of their Japanese companies. AKB48 can do a joint world tour with Girls Generation. If AKB48 does ever sign up with SM Entertainment, they'll get a lot of attention around the world, trust me. The same for EXILE.

-Kyary Pamyu Pamyu can sign under YG Entertainment. If she does that, she'll get a lot of worldwide attention because she's part of YG family. YG can set up a real world tour for her (meaning she can go to South America, Middle East, Australia, and other areas that she never visited). Kyary not only do Korean-language album and do a solo world tour that YG provide. She can take part in YG Family concert tour if she does that. Kyary's future Korean MVs should have G-Dragon, Lee Hi, PSY, and CL. Maybe she can work with Lee Hi on one of her MV in the future. I would love to see Kyary's MV featuring CL, G-Dragon, and PSY in it. That'll give Kyary a lot of global attention. Kyary's fashion style does remind me of YG artists fashions style, so YG could be perfect for her Korean-language debut.

-Morning Musume and the Hello! Project idols could sign under JYP Entertainment (the same agencies Wonder Girls, Miss A, 2PM, and GOT7 are under). Morning Musume under JYP can try another attempt to enter the Chinese market, MM and other idols (Buono, S/Mileage, Berryz Kobo, Juice=Juice) can be able to particpate in JYP Nation concerts if Hello! Project sign with JYP Entertainment. JYP can set up concerts and world tour for MM and other Hello Project idols.

-Passpo can sign under Loen Entertainment, Starship Entertainment (SISTAR, Boyfriend, K. Will), or Pledis Entertainment (After School, NU'EST).

-Perfume can sign under Cube Entertainment (the agency that 4minute, BEAST, BTOB, Bi Rain, and Apink are under). Perfume not only do Korean-language album, but they can take part in United Cube Concert meaning they can do more concert outside of Asia. Cube can also set up a real world tour for Perfume meaning they can perform in South America, Australia, Middle East, and other part they never perform in. it would be cool if Cube can make a subunit similar to Trouble Maker (which had Hyuna of 4minute and Hyun-seung of BEAST) using Perfume and another Cube artists like maybe make one with A-Chan and Yoseob of BEAST, and another one with Nocchi and Minhyuk of BTOB.

-Scandal and Flumpool can sign under FNC Entertainment (which FT Island, CNBlue, AOA, and Juniel are under). Scandal and Flumpool not only do Korean-language album but they can do real world tour as in Scandal and Flumpool can do concerts in South America, Australia, and other part of the world they never done before like they did for CNBlue. I would love to see a subunit consist of Scandal and AOA Black.

-Other J-pop artists like Yuna Ito, Nana Mizuki, LiSA, May'n, and YUi could sign under Loen Entertainment for their Korean-language debut. I also recalled Crystal Kay has said she wants to debut in Korea.

I guarantee if you have J-pop debut in South Korea, and crossover to K-pop they'll get a lot of worldwide attention because K-pop right now is gaining more attention then J-pop on a global scale. After they do well in Korea, they can expand into China and Taiwan with the help of the Korean agencies/labels (SM and JYP knows the Chinese market). Also international J-pop fans can support their J-pop group by buying their Korean and Chinese-language album since those will be avaliable and not expensive like their Japanese CDs, and their Korean-language and Chinese-language albums will be avaliable on Itunes worldwide and if many J-pop fans around the world buy it and support it, it'll shock the Japanese music execs and the Japanese entertainment and music industry and it'll give Japan's music industry a reason to globalize J-pop. Again you need to show Japanese music exec that J-pop do have fans around the world, buying the J-pop artists/idols Korean language and Chinese language album will prove it to them.

That's how J-pop can rise and match against K-pop, use the Korean music market for J-pop artists/idols as a launching pad.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Beat them on their own turf with their own medicine... a recipe that works in quite many ways.

[asaqe]

The fact neither Sa547 or Houkoholic hadn't respond is either the wall of text became insurmountable or they have declared defeat

[houkoholic]

I would think that any thinking person would look at the whole "Jpop artists should learn Korean and use Kpop as a launch pad" and see that the idea debunks itself. It would be equally silly of me to suggest that Jpop artists should learn proper English, move to the states permanently and use the Billboard charts to launch their international career, heck speaking of using the US as the launch pad they should mimic the success of Utada Hikaru! That's a "proven" successful formula of internationalising Jpop, no? (oh and BTW, congrats to Utada Hikaru for getting married too)

Not all ideas warrant time and the effort for rational debates.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I would think that any thinking person would look at the whole "Jpop artists should learn Korean and use Kpop as a launch pad" and see that the idea debunks itself. It would be equally silly of me to suggest that Jpop artists should learn proper English, move to the states permanently and use the Billboard charts to launch their international career, heck speaking of using the US as the launch pad they should mimic the success of Utada Hikaru! That's a "proven" successful formula of internationalising Jpop, no? (oh and BTW, congrats to Utada Hikaru for getting married too)

Not all ideas warrant time and the effort for rational debates.

They could use Korea as a international launching pad. I mean face it, it's going to be hard for J-pop to get the same attention globally like K-pop has gotten because Korea does a better job marketing and globalizing K-pop then Japan does for J-pop. I mean Taiwanese pop may try to use Korea's music market as a launching pad to gain international attention, not only that it'll prove to South Korea that they have competition and Taiwan may try to do this to show Taiwanese pop artists/idols are just as talented as K-pop.

If J-pop wants to compete with K-pop on international scale and to show they're talented like K-pop idols, they have to sing in Korean and Chinese not only English. I mean K-pop idols has more talent, I mean watch the video below:

Even the CEO of Universal Music Japan said it that the training K-idols get in South Korea is so unique it's not even found in Japan. Other Asian artists like 2 Indonesian groups, and 1 Mainland Chinese girl group got their training from South Korea using that K-idol training method and debut back home as the video show. Taiwan may try adapt this training from South Korea to their idols/artists so Taiwanese pop can pick up the same wildfire like K-pop did worldwide and to show Taiwanese pop can compete with K-pop on a global show. So I think Japan should adapt the K-pop idol training and use it for future J-pop group, the training comes with foreign language lessons so that's why K-pop can sing not only Korean, but also Japanese and Chinese. I think it would be wise if J-pop artists/idols can learn to sing in Korean and Chinese if you want J-pop to go global. I mean watch this video, you'll know why the Hallyu/Korean Wave has gone on for long:

I mean if K-pop idols/artists can sing in Japanese and Chinese, then why can't J-pop artists sing in Korean and Chinese.

J-pop artists singing in Korean and Chinese=more talent, and show the world that J-pop can compete with K-pop on a global scale.

English is not enough, J-pop has to show they can compete with K-pop by singing in Korean and Chinese. I mean I would love to see AKB48 sing in Korean and Chinese and appear on Korean music shows (ie: Inkigaiyo, Music Bank, M! Countdown, and Simply K-pop). If we can get J-pop artists/idols to do Korean-language album, they'll get a lot of attention worldwide from both K-pop fans, and international J-pop fans can show their love and support for their J-pop artists/idols by buying their Korean-language (and Chinese-language) albums.

Also I like to say that Japan need to stop relying on their market, and cash in on Asian pop music fad that K-pop has cause. I mean I'm seeing K-pop fans also liking Taiwanese pop and canto-pop, let J-pop out a little more, I remember reading this article from Seoulbeats.

Originally Posted by Seoulbeats

And for Japan and its music industry, what do you think it can learn from K-pop and the Hallyu wave?

Nicholas: For all the things that J-Pop does well, one thing they really cry out for is some sharp marketing. Surely being the original creator (and semi-successful exporter) of popular culture has got to count for something, as well as the years of added experience. My feeling is that J-pop right now is quite like the Galapagos of popular culture, evolved and self sustaining, with a little bit of inaccessible cool air about it. How about taking that, and spinning it into something that is an acquired taste, yet enjoyable once you get the hang of it? Judging from online buzz, there are many acts that have had a devoted following purely on word-of-mouth, so why not play on that slightly “underground” vibe.

Another thing that makes J-pop that little bit inaccessible is how so much online content gets walled off due to copyright or translation issues. Granted, there is the issue of getting paid and accurate translations (something which K-pop still works on half the time), but hey, open the gates and watch the fans come.

Jasper: As for what Japan can get out of Korea, I’d definitely agree with Nicholas and say marketing. While there’s no real need to since Japan’s large music industry can surely sustain itself, reaching out to foreign fans could potentially really help the genre. The effective ways K-pop management markets the genre allows their fans to feel more involved despite being so far away, and Japan could benefit from this as well.

Amy: Japan is completely miserable at spreading their music products outside of Japan. Like Jasper and Nicholas have mentioned, Japan has no need to do this, given that its own market can sustain its music industry extremely comfortably without outside help, but at a certain point, it starts to read like arrogance. This is a global age. It’s close-minded for Japanese music companies to shut out YouTube as aggressively as they have. It’s just unthinkable and extremely irritating for fans trying to get a better sense of Japan’s pop cultural products to be unable to find leads anywhere. It doesn’t help that merchandise coming out of Japan is ridiculously overpriced either, so it’s like Japan is actively trying to discourage anyone from gaining access to their pop culture, which is short-sighted.

I agreed with Amy on her part, Japan is ridiculous, I mean Taiwan is going to try replicating this same wave, so how come Japan is not cashing in on K-pop success. As I said, I think it would be good idea for J-pop to sing in Korean and Chinese.

Oh and before anyone say: "Korea and China music market are too small, Japan won't make anything."

We saw Little Mix singing Wings in Korean and yet Korea music market is smaller then Japan. China's music market is smaller then South Korea, yet K-pop artists/idols still enter and sing their song in Chinese. I mean Girls Generation and T-ara both top Oricon chart in Japan yet they go to China and sing song in Chinese:

See if Girls Generation and T-ara can sing in both Japanese and Chinese, then let J-pop artists/idol do a Korean and Chinese language album and sing in those language, that's how J-pop can get recognition worldwide, by singing not only in English, but in other Asian languages.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I would think that any thinking person would look at the whole "Jpop artists should learn Korean and use Kpop as a launch pad" and see that the idea debunks itself. It would be equally silly of me to suggest that Jpop artists should learn proper English, move to the states permanently and use the Billboard charts to launch their international career, heck speaking of using the US as the launch pad they should mimic the success of Utada Hikaru! That's a "proven" successful formula of internationalising Jpop, no? (oh and BTW, congrats to Utada Hikaru for getting married too)

Not all ideas warrant time and the effort for rational debates.

You know what the funny thing is that KPOP only became popular by following Japan's "cute" idol concept and adopting it wholesale (2003-2007 was a very contrasting era, KPOP groups were all about following American music).

Still the easiest anwser is to simply help promote artists in Japan who follows American Pop or if they want the easy way out, imitate Beyonce for girls and R&B artists for guys.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by asaqe

You know what the funny thing is that KPOP only became popular by following Japan's "cute" idol concept and adopting it wholesale (2003-2007 was a very contrasting era, KPOP groups were all about following American music).

Still the easiest anwser is to simply help promote artists in Japan who follows American Pop or if they want the easy way out, imitate Beyonce for girls and R&B artists for guys.

Or they could learn a few thing or 2 from their Korean counterpart. I mean future Japanese idols can get their training from South Korea and debut back home. Have the J-pop group learn to sing in not only Japanese and English, but also Korean and Chinese, it'll work trust me.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by mdo7

They could use Korea as a international launching pad. I mean face it, it's going to be hard for J-pop to get the same attention globally like K-pop has gotten because Korea does a better job marketing and globalizing K-pop then Japan does for J-pop. I mean Taiwanese pop may try to use Korea's music market as a launching pad to gain international attention, not only that it'll prove to South Korea that they have competition and Taiwan may try to do this to show Taiwanese pop artists/idols are just as talented as K-pop.

If J-pop wants to compete with K-pop on international scale and to show they're talented like K-pop idols, they have to sing in Korean and Chinese not only English. I mean K-pop idols has more talent, I mean watch the video below:

*sign* I swear this is the last time I'm going to seriously participate in the debate as it currently stands with the direction it is taking.

mdo7 your entire idea is absurd - when a Jpop artist sings in Korean or Chinese their song is no longer Jpop, it becomes Kpop or Cpop. Case in point, nobody considers BoA as a Kpop artists, she's Korean and sings in Japanese so she's considered Jpop - just Korean born. If a Jpop artist has to sing in a foreign language that is admitting defeat and losing their own identity and product differentiation, and thus it does nothing to help the promotion of Jpop at all, but merely fueling the Kpop industry. That is NOT what Jpop wants to go.

Also the training and facilitating of talent has nothing to do with the music it originated from. You can see that a lot of the Kpop moves are copied and improved upon from American pop idols, and as asaqe said some of it was also Jpop influenced. So what Jpop artist needs to do isn't to abandon their identity as you are suggesting, they need to find what makes them different and good and improved upon it, find what the others are doing right and learn from it, look at what they did wrong and avoid it. That's what they should be doing. Should the Japanese learn something from the Koreans? Hell yes, no ones is going to debate this I reckon, everything from the Korean's marketing technique to their willingness to go overseas etc, but this does NOT mean stooping to mere imitation because it is NOT the answer. Case in point with something closer to home - the anime and manga industry grew because they are different than American cartoons, the early anime/manga industry studied what the Americans did and learnt from it, BUT not copy wholesale, that's how you come up with a differentiating product.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

*sign* I swear this is the last time I'm going to seriously participate in the debate as it currently stands with the direction it is taking.

Fine, I'm not stopping you, but you have to realize the population decline in Japan is going to hurt their music market if they don't take the international market and their rivals (Korea and Taiwan) seriously.

mdo7 your entire idea is absurd - when a Jpop artist sings in Korean or Chinese their song is no longer Jpop, it becomes Kpop or Cpop. Case in point, nobody considers BoA as a Kpop artists, she's Korean and sings in Japanese so she's considered Jpop - just Korean born. If a Jpop artist has to sing in a foreign language that is admitting defeat and losing their own identity and product differentiation, and thus it does nothing to help the promotion of Jpop at all, but merely fueling the Kpop industry. That is NOT what Jpop wants to go.

Then according to your logic, TVXQ, Girls Generation, 2PM, U-KISS are not K-pop too when they sing in Japanese. Should the same goes for BigBang and 2NE1?

I don't understand how J-pop singing in Korean and Chinese would mean admitting defeat, then according to your logic, Korean admit defeat by singing in Japanese and Chinese. That logic of yours doesn't make sense. J-pop artists/idols singing in Korean and Chinese shows that J-pop artists/idols want to reach out to their international fans, and also to show J-pop can compete with K-pop on a global scale. Also it shows that J-pop are learning from K-pop, so it's a 2-way street, you said it yourself, K-pop take some idea from J-pop, what would be the problem with the opposite? Taiwan is going to try to do this by having their future idols/artists singing in not only Chinese, and Japanese but Korean and English.

I mean if K-pop artists can sing in Chinese and Japanese, then why can't J-pop artists sing in Korean and Chinese?? it makes J-pop more talented if they can sing in Korean and Chinese. Now what would happen if Taiwanese pop artists/idols not only sang in Japanese and Chinese, but Korean too? It'll show Taiwan wants to compete with Korea for Asian pop supremacy. As I said, Taiwan is trying to have their pop music to replicate the same fire as K-pop. I'm not saying they're trying to emulate Kpop style and beat, but incorporate the uniqueness of Taiwanese pop and combined with K-pop multi-talent properties. That's what I want to see for J-pop, J-pop music to be unique from K-pop but I want J-pop artists/idols to adapt the K-idol training so they can match talent level with K-pop and to be able to show J-pop can go global like K-pop did. I mean South Korea is pretty smart on globalizing their pop music, Taiwan is learning from this and 5 or 10 years from now on, Taiwan could become the "2nd South Korea" to launch a cultural wave very much like the Hallyu. I don't want to see Japan falling behind with their population decline that can hurt the market and not taking the global market (and their countries of competition, Korea and Taiwan) seriously. If K-pop can do this, then J-pop should be able to do this.

Also the training and facilitating of talent has nothing to do with the music it originated from.

When did I say that, the training that K-idols is so unique you't can find it in Japan, didn't you watch the video I included at all?

You can see that a lot of the Kpop moves are copied and improved upon from American pop idols, and as asaqe said some of it was also Jpop influenced. So what Jpop artist needs to do isn't to abandon their identity as you are suggesting, they need to find what makes them different and good and improved upon it, find what the others are doing right and learn from it, look at what they did wrong and avoid it. That's what they should be doing. Should the Japanese learn something from the Koreans? Hell yes, no ones is going to debate this I reckon, everything from the Korean's marketing technique to their willingness to go overseas etc, but this does NOT mean stooping to mere imitation because it is NOT the answer. Case in point with something closer to home - the anime and manga industry grew because they are different than American cartoons, the early anime/manga industry studied what the Americans did and learnt from it, BUT not copy wholesale, that's how you come up with a differentiating product.

So what, The Beatles and other British invasion bands combined US and British style music and guess what .

I'm not saying J-pop should emulate K-pop (that would be the worse thing ever), but they need to make J-pop unique and globally appealing if the Japanese music market want to survive. K-pop may be derived from American pop, but so what. K-pop brought back something I don't see in today's music. K-pop can be innovative too.

[houkoholic]

Some interesting points were raise, so I have things to add.

Originally Posted by mdo7

Fine, I'm not stopping you, but you have to realize the population decline in Japan is going to hurt their music market if they don't take the international market and their rivals (Korea and Taiwan) seriously.

We all realise that the Japanese is ignoring the international market, this discussion had been had several pages back (which I already participated in), you don't have to keep harping this point, yet this has nothing to do with the discussion of *how* Japan should tackle the problem.

Then according to your logic, TVXQ, Girls Generation, 2PM, U-KISS are not K-pop too when they sing in Japanese. Should the same goes for BigBang and 2NE1?

When they sing in Japanese, yes, they are not K-pop.

then according to your logic, Korean admit defeat by singing in Japanese and Chinese.

Yes, because that's actually the case!

BoA and Girls Generation admitted that the Japanese market was more profitable so that's why they learnt Japanese and dedicated a good chunk of their time to make a foot hold in Japan. Again, Japan is in a unique position because for the longest time it was the second country in terms of GDP in the world, only behind USA. That's why the Japanese industry is only looking towards the US, because only that market is the only single market which is bigger than Japan. However this doesn't apply to Kpop. There were a lot of markets where it is bigger than Kpop, and the Koreans were smart to see that winning lots of smaller pieces of the pie could add up to a large piece of the pie, and that's why they went in that direction.

However, this still doesn't make any arguments as to why Japan has to use Korea as a launch pad. So your argument is still absurd.

That logic of yours doesn't make sense. J-pop artists/idols singing in Korean and Chinese shows that J-pop artists/idols want to reach out to their international fans, and also to show J-pop can compete with K-pop on a global scale.

It only doesn't make sense to you because you are fascinated with Kpop and fails to see something much simpler and more effective - the Jpop artists can show they are interested in international fans by, you know, actually holding overseas concerts and meet-and-talk events instead of taking this absurd route of learning a completely different language.

Also it shows that J-pop are learning from K-pop, so it's a 2-way street, you said it yourself, K-pop take some idea from J-pop, what would be the problem with the opposite?

The problem is that the Japanese music industry must first fix their business blindspots - like taking an initiative to lower prices, actively go out of the country to hold concerts and things like that, instead of focusing on learning a different language which doesn't do anything to fix the underlying issue.

I mean if K-pop artists can sing in Chinese and Japanese, then why can't J-pop artists sing in Korean and Chinese?? it makes J-pop more talented if they can sing in Korean and Chinese.

Oh please, we've learnt enough that talent is the least of the worries in the worlds music industry (justin bieber anyone?). The language part of music comes much lower in the priority list compare to things like music style and being somewhat able to hold a tone, and marketing. Hardly anyone knew WTF Psy was singing about in Gangnam Style, but that doesn't stop it becoming a hit for various other reasons.

When did I say that, the training that K-idols is so unique you't can find it in Japan, didn't you watch the video I included at all?

So what, you can't find it in Japan, but nothing in that video shows anything that is different to say, US style dance training.

So what, The Beatles and other British invasion bands combined US and British style music and guess what .

They all sang in English, how does that add to your argument that Jpop artists should learn another language?

Also from the article: While early commercial attempts to replicate American rock and roll mostly failed, the trad jazz–inspired skiffle craze,[5] with its 'do it yourself' attitude, was the starting point of several British Billboard singles.

So actually the article is supporting *my* argument. Jpop should be looking at what makes them unique, they may need to adopt a more harden line of training style to make themselves look more professional (yes, the Koreans have the Japanese soundly beaten here, as most Japanese PV still looks like it was shot by interns with a shoe string budget), but this, again, is not supporting any form of making Jpop artists to become more like Kpop or even sing Kpop or use Korea as a launch pad. So I'm not seeing how this supports your argument in any way or form.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Some interesting points were raise, so I have things to add.



We all realise that the Japanese is ignoring the international market, this discussion had been had several pages back (which I already participated in), you don't have to keep harping this point, yet this has nothing to do with the discussion of *how* Japan should tackle the problem.



When they sing in Japanese, yes, they are not K-pop.



Yes, because that's actually the case!

BoA and Girls Generation admitted that the Japanese market was more profitable so that's why they learnt Japanese and dedicated a good chunk of their time to make a foot hold in Japan. Again, Japan is in a unique position because for the longest time it was the second country in terms of GDP in the world, only behind USA. That's why the Japanese industry is only looking towards the US, because only that market is the only single market which is bigger than Japan. However this doesn't apply to Kpop. There were a lot of markets where it is bigger than Kpop, and the Koreans were smart to see that winning lots of smaller pieces of the pie could add up to a large piece of the pie, and that's why they went in that direction.

However, this still doesn't make any arguments as to why Japan has to use Korea as a launch pad. So your argument is still absurd.



It only doesn't make sense to you because you are fascinated with Kpop and fails to see something much simpler and more effective - the Jpop artists can show they are interested in international fans by, you know, actually holding overseas concerts and meet-and-talk events instead of taking this absurd route of learning a completely different language.




The problem is that the Japanese music industry must first fix their business blindspots - like taking an initiative to lower prices, actively go out of the country to hold concerts and things like that, instead of focusing on learning a different language which doesn't do anything to fix the underlying issue.



Oh please, we've learnt enough that talent is the least of the worries in the worlds music industry (justin bieber anyone?). The language part of music comes much lower in the priority list compare to things like music style and being somewhat able to hold a tone, and marketing. Hardly anyone knew WTF Psy was singing about in Gangnam Style, but that doesn't stop it becoming a hit for various other reasons.



So what, you can't find it in Japan, but nothing in that video shows anything that is different to say, US style dance training.



They all sang in English, how does that add to your argument that Jpop artists should learn another language?

Also from the article: While early commercial attempts to replicate American rock and roll mostly failed, the trad jazz–inspired skiffle craze,[5] with its 'do it yourself' attitude, was the starting point of several British Billboard singles.

So actually the article is supporting *my* argument. Jpop should be looking at what makes them unique, they may need to adopt a more harden line of training style to make themselves look more professional (yes, the Koreans have the Japanese soundly beaten here, as most Japanese PV still looks like it was shot by interns with a shoe string budget), but this, again, is not supporting any form of making Jpop artists to become more like Kpop or even sing Kpop or use Korea as a launch pad. So I'm not seeing how this supports your argument in any way or form.

OK, I think the problem with you that Japan is too scare to go global unlike their Korean counterpart. Taiwan may try to do this, and if they do managed to pull this off like their Korean counterpart and Japan is not taking this seriously, they'll fall behind. J-pop artists can crossover to K-pop and can use Korea as a launching pad for international attention, remember Little Mix did a Korean-language version of one of their song and it got a lot of attention from K-pop fans, so if a J-pop artists/idols was to do the same, they'll get a lot of attention from K-pop fans and also international J-pop fans can support their J-pop idols/artists by buying their Korean and Chinese-language album. Korean album and Chinese album are much cheaper then Japanese CDs, so it'll help them and it'll shocked the Japanese music exec, and it'll show South Korea that Japan wants to compete with K-pop if they do that.

Japan maybe the 2nd largest market, but I found out Europe has more money then US and Japan combined:

Originally Posted by DKpopnews

When asked what he thinks K-pop can gain with a launch into the European market, Kim Youngmin proudly said that the European market is estimated to be worth 7 trillion Won. This basically means it's larger than the US (6 trillion), Japan (4 trillion), and China (1 trillion). He also mentioned that it's not their main goal to get into the charts and sell enormous amounts of CD's, as they're planning to attract people's attention to the Asian music market through the expanding popularity of K-pop music.

I don't know how much 7 trillion Won is in Yen, but if there is more money in Europe then how come J-pop concerts in Europe are so rare how come AKB48 never done a European tour (they performed in France and Russia, and that's it never came back to Europe) when K-pop artists/idols are making Europe part of their world tour.

Also Europe has more money then Japan make sense: if you combined UK, France, Germany, Italy, and Spain which are big music market in Europe and smaller European music market, it totally rivaled Japan's music market.

I'm also seeing K-pop is gaining huge traction in Europe. It was announced that the Hallyu fanbases worldwide has risen to 9 million. Has Japan put up any report like this for J-pop fans?? That's why I'm concern for J-pop because Korea is playing this game better, and Taiwan maybe able to replicate this. I don't want Japan to fall behind.

[Dhomochevsky]

Europe is not a homongenous market when it comes to music.
I only really know first hand for a couple of countries, but when it comes to popular music (the top 100), there seems to be a mix of 50% english and 50% local music.

For Germany this local part is mostly german hiphop and rock.
Italy seems to still like a lot of ballades in italian, at least based on what's on the radio there.
France has quotas.
Almost nothing of that local part ever spills into another EU country.
And like I said, the other half, the international one, is almost exclusively U.S./Uk influenced.

I do not know where you get the idea from, that K-pop is popular here. Aside from the PSY thing, which briefly put the spotlight on Korea, I can not remember any occasion when there was K-pop on the radio and it's not in the charts either.
This does not mean there are no fans in general, but it is in no way popular music.

How it is now, the 'easiest' way into Europe on a whole would be by becoming successful in the U.S.. That's where everyone is looking for pop music trends, so if J-pop, or K-pop got a lot of success there, it would certainly get noticed.
This way, J-pop could enter via the already established U.S. segment into every country.

If a band was trying to directly access one of the local markets, it would really make no difference if they are J, K, or whatever. All of those are currently the same level of obscure and almost no one can tell the difference between japanese and korean language anyway.

Other than in the U.S. I do not see the fact they are singing a foreign language we can not understand as such a big problem for local EU markets by the way. As mentioned above, a good chunk of the popular music is english and this has been this way for quite some time. Not a lot of people understand english well enough to figure out what is being sung.
This means you can regularily listen to the most obscene/raunchy english texts played on the radio all over the day and no one bats an eye.

That apparently has not caused any problems for english pop music success, so I guess other languages can pull of the same thing.



TL;DR:
Europe is not an easy target for non U.S. music acts. K-pop is just as obscure as J-pop here, so no stepping stone.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Europe is not a homongenous market when it comes to music.
I only really know first hand for a couple of countries, but when it comes to popular music (the top 100), there seems to be a mix of 50% english and 50% local music.

For Germany this local part is mostly german hiphop and rock.
Italy seems to still like a lot of ballades in italian, at least based on what's on the radio there.
France has quotas.
Almost nothing of that local part ever spills into another EU country.
And like I said, the other half, the international one, is almost exclusively U.S./Uk influenced.

I do not know where you get the idea from, that K-pop is popular here. Aside from the PSY thing, which briefly put the spotlight on Korea, I can not remember any occasion when there was K-pop on the radio and it's not in the charts either.
This does not mean there are no fans in general, but it is in no way popular music.

How it is now, the 'easiest' way into Europe on a whole would be by becoming successful in the U.S.. That's where everyone is looking for pop music trends, so if J-pop, or K-pop got a lot of success there, it would certainly get noticed.
This way, J-pop could enter via the already established U.S. segment into every country.

If a band was trying to directly access one of the local markets, it would really make no difference if they are J, K, or whatever. All of those are currently the same level of obscure and almost no one can tell the difference between japanese and korean language anyway.

Other than in the U.S. I do not see the fact they are singing a foreign language we can not understand as such a big problem for local EU markets by the way. As mentioned above, a good chunk of the popular music is english and this has been this way for quite some time. Not a lot of people understand english well enough to figure out what is being sung.
This means you can regularily listen to the most obscene/raunchy english texts played on the radio all over the day and no one bats an eye.

That apparently has not caused any problems for english pop music success, so I guess other languages can pull of the same thing.



TL;DR:
Europe is not an easy target for non U.S. music acts. K-pop is just as obscure as J-pop here, so no stepping stone.

You remember SMTown concert in France, sold out for 2 days. They have to add another concert for that. Also your profile said you lived in Germany, don't tell me you didn't hear about B.A.P:

B.A.P win rookie award at Germany-Europe Award ceremony

B.A.P top Germany K-pop chart once again

B.A.P top Germany music chart for 3 months

B.A.P win 4 awards at Germany "remarkable awards"

Also I talked to another German fan and she showed me evidence K-pop is popular (stores in Germany selling K-pop CDs, flashmob, k-pop parties becoming more frequent) in Europe not at the mainstream level, but it's being acknowledged in Europe.

Also where were you when K-pop top the VIVA chart:

2NE1, MBLAQ, and BEAST topped the German VIVA chart

2PM Hands up chart high on VIVA Chart

SHINee and TVXQ topped VIVA Chart

JYJ Jaejoong solo album top Germany Asian music chart

Also Germany was the first European country to make an award for K-pop called so-loved award. This award was first founded in Germany and this award was recognized by the Korean govt. Has J-pop gotten this?

So looks like you might not have seen it. Also I never seen J-pop making these achievement when K-pop seem to have done this.

[Dhomochevsky]

Like I said, there was a brief time when the spotlight was on Korea. Notice the dates on those links. But I can not see any signs that this is somehow expanding, or even sustained.

I think the misunderstanding here is about how you would like J-pop/K-pop to enter the market.
There is no doubt a fanbase for both locally and these people would certainly take the opportunity to visit one of the rare concerts.
This way of steadily building up a fanbase may pay off, but it does not seem to be the kind of success that everyone was talking about earlier in this thread.
That seemed to be more about regular big hits, topping the charts, and well.. being mainstream pop music.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Like I said, there was a brief time when the spotlight was on Korea. Notice the dates on those links. But I can not see any signs that this is somehow expanding, or even sustained.

I think the misunderstanding here is about how you would like J-pop/K-pop to enter the market.
There is no doubt a fanbase for both locally and these people would certainly take the opportunity to visit one of the rare concerts.
This way of steadily building up a fanbase may pay off, but it does not seem to be the kind of success that everyone was talking about earlier in this thread.
That seemed to be more about regular big hits, topping the charts, and well.. being mainstream pop music.

I think there is a reason for that, I think you know who GEMA are, right?? You're probably familiar with them blocking Youtube in Germany. The same K-pop fan that told me K-pop popularity is growing in Germany, she told me it's hard to access their official MVs on Youtube because of GEMA. Damn you, GEMA!!! That's the reason why K-pop fanbases has somewhat stagnated a bit (but hey according to that same German fan who talked to me on Youtube, fans would download the original MV from torrents and fansub it in German and uploaded on Youtube or another site).

However, Germany could have a big K-pop fanbases (which may surprised you) that probably give K-pop and Korea more attention. But yeah GEMA needs to go, meanwhile K-pop has already grown in a lot of part in Europe.