Loli, Moe animes, and Feminism in Japan (i.e how/why are they popular?)

[C.A.]

I saw that people were discussing about cuteness and adoration.

The Kanji for cute, in both Chinese and Japanese literally means 'adorable/lovable'. To be cute, kawaii, literally means to be adorable and lovable in Chinese and Japanese.

Simply, everything that we would find lovable, is probably cute.

[Revenger1589]

Originally Posted by Not_At

This this this. I totally agree.
This is what bugs me about moe, more than the diameter of their eyes or the way their bodies are drawn. It's that dependency. And I'm curious as to what that signifies. Does it mean Japan is STILL not over their sexist, constraining ideal of a "Yamato Nadeschiko", the graceful yet submissive woman?

You say that as if it were ever going to happen or like it needs to happen, having a preference to a certain type of female is something completely personal and the idea that it needs to change is ridiculous. You can't change what people like, but you can change what they are willing to accept, as long as no one is forcing women to act like a Yamato Nadeshiko, it's fine.

There is no such thing as a society being more or less culturally advanced, the fact that Japan has different ideals and tastes than America doesn't mean their culture is not modern. A country's culture may change but it doesn't follow any established time line.

I don't know why people get so upset when they see females taking a more "traditional" role, the freedom to do so is as important as the freedom not to do it.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Veritas

It is this paradigm that bothers me the most about moe. I don't hate moe characters just because they're cute. I don't even hate them because they're usually stereotyped and uninteresting characters in lazy shows that have completely saturated the airwaves. I hate them when they're presented as dependent, naive, child-women who settle for someone who ridicules or belittles them just because he gave them some stupid token 10 years before. I hate them when they're immature and jealous shrews who abuse weaker characters. I hate them when they're closed off emotionally or not feminine or cute enough and have to get "fixed" before they're dateable. This isn't cute. It's insulting, damaging, and socially regressive.

It amuses me how alike we are in this particular instance. I have the same issues with "moe" as a genre and as a character archetype.

I'm pretty sure we already talked about this at one point, but this sort of thing--these unpleasant moe archetypes--is what really causes me to like characters such as Chiko from The Daughter of Twenty Faces.

I love cute characters who are definitely not helpless or immature. As TVTropes would put it, I'm not a fan of moe archetypes, but I love Badass Adorable characters.

I mean, even Yomi of Ga Rei -Zero- has some pretty moe moments, especially later in the series when she's going through all the stuff with her inheritance. However, it's abundantly clear that she's a definite badass, while also being cute as hell.

I think this pretty much proves that a character can be cute, and can be described as exhibiting moe tendencies, but without being shallow, superficial and a wish-fulfillment fantasy for lonely male viewers.

What a lot of us are arguing against is the genrefication of moe. These tendencies in well-balanced and well-written characters should only be used sparingly, else the character becomes one-dimensional (and very likely annoying). The idea that many anime and manga creators have taken the idea of moe and built an entire fucking genre out of it is what tends to annoy people, but most especially women, the most.

Moe is a characteristic, not a character archetype; as a previous poster mentioned, Vita of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha does have many moments and scenes where you just feel like she really needs a hug. She has moe characteristics--physically, obviously and also emotionally and mentally. But she is far from being a moe character; her character is much more developed than that.

The problem with moe isn't that it exists, but that it's a characteristic, not a genre or character archetype, but many content creators use it as a genre and a character archetype. Good characters definitely need more than moe tendencies to be good characters.

Originally Posted by C.A.

I saw that people were discussing about cuteness and adoration.

The Kanji for cute, in both Chinese and Japanese literally means 'adorable/lovable'. To be cute, kawaii, literally means to be adorable and lovable in Chinese and Japanese.

Simply, everything that we would find lovable, is probably cute.

This does make a lot of sense, but as I mentioned above, describing a character as moe above all else, and also writing a character with the intent that she will be a moe archetype is an example of poor character design.

Characters shouldn't be that flat and shallow.

[WanderingKnight]

What a lot of us are arguing against is the genrefication of moe. These tendencies in well-balanced and well-written characters should only be used sparingly, else the character becomes one-dimensional (and very likely annoying). The idea that many anime and manga creators have taken the idea of moe and built an entire fucking genre out of it is what tends to annoy people, but most especially women, the most.

This.

I love it when my sometimes mangled English is so wonderfully simplified by someone else. Props to you, good sir.

[Vexx]

If one is going to assume that their own culture's mores is automatically superior or better than the culture they're trying to understand .... they're going to have a lot of trouble as an anthropology student. Just a thought....

This applies even at the micro-level of trying to understand what drives another clique from the perspective one's own clique. (e.g. mecha-fan looking at other genre).

[roriconfan]

What was the issue again? What is moe? What is the problem if you don't know the correct term? Terms differ when used by different groups of people. An otaku is an fine word for gaijins but a negative word for Japanese.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Haak

I would have thought that "cute" would be more specific than "adoration".

For one thing I wouldn't consider Taiga's grouchy, pessimestic attitude to be moe at all. Nor would I consider someone using charm to manipulate the player character into doing her bidding to be moe either.

What I'm trying to get across with adoration is the intensity of the feeling. Many - probably most - anime girls are cute, but there's only a few I would consider myself to adore. That's why I say interpretting moe as cute is a dilution of the original term.

Taiga won the largest moe tournament in Japan this year, so clearly some people find her "tiny girl, big attitude" thing appealing. Maybe not the grouchiness itself, but I'm pretty sure she would never have achieved this award had she been a meek girl. And Tsugumi manipulating people with her charm is cute... first because the way she goes about it is to "act cute", second... well, for some reason the image of her mentally snickering and going "sucker" while she does it is cute to me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Do character designs honestly have nothing to do with you finding these characters moe, though?

You can't tell me that Kotomi isn't drawn to look cute.

And Taiga's short height no doubt contributes to a youthful appearance. In fact, Taiga's short stature is the only thing that makes her a little bit moe to me personally.

Both looks and personality play a role in moe for me.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

What a lot of us are arguing against is the genrefication of moe. These tendencies in well-balanced and well-written characters should only be used sparingly, else the character becomes one-dimensional (and very likely annoying). The idea that many anime and manga creators have taken the idea of moe and built an entire fucking genre out of it is what tends to annoy people, but most especially women, the most.

My opinion on this is somewhat different. I love a lot of shows which were obviously designed with moe as a core element, like K-On and Clannad, and find myself hating shows from other genres that make half-assed attempts at having moe appeal to disguise the fact the rest of the show is half-assed too.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

This does make a lot of sense, but as I mentioned above, describing a character as moe above all else, and also writing a character with the intent that she will be a moe archetype is an example of poor character design.

Characters shouldn't be that flat and shallow.

Eh, I'd describe Sengoku Nadeko as moe above all else, but she's hardly a character I'd describe as flat and shallow. Fleshing out a moe character isn't really any different from fleshing out any other archetype... it's hardly rocket science.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

What I'm trying to get across with adoration is the intensity of the feeling. Many - probably most - anime girls are cute, but there's only a few I would consider myself to adore. That's why I say interpreting moe as cute is a dilution of the original term.

Taiga won the largest moe tournament in Japan this year, so clearly some people find her "tiny girl, big attitude" thing appealing. Maybe not the grouchiness itself, but I'm pretty sure she would never have achieved this award had she been a meek girl. And Tsugumi manipulating people with her charm is cute... first because the way she goes about it is to "act cute", second... well, for some reason the image of her mentally snickering and going "sucker" while she does it is cute to me.

I'm not familiar with Tsugumi myself, but... just from how you've described her in this thread, she doesn't sound moe to me; not at a personality level. I don't find the acts of manipulating or swindling people that may be quite well-meaning (and thinking them "suckers" in the process) to be cute. I might consider it to be part of a good antagonist, but I wouldn't use the word "cute" to describe it.

Both looks and personality play a role in moe for me.

So... if you had to apply personality traits to the term "moe" the way that you apply personality traits to the term "tsundere", what traits would they be, in your opinion?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not familiar with Tsugumi myself, but... just from how you've described her in this thread, she doesn't sound moe to me; not at a personality level. I don't find the acts of manipulating or swindling people that may be quite well-meaning (and thinking them "suckers" in the process) to be cute. I might consider it to be part of a good antagonist, but I wouldn't use the word "cute" to describe it.

Actually, when I think about it, it's not really her manipulation that's cute, it's how she goes about it.

Tsugumi is an icy character, but she's also a very playful flirt - both when she initially is doing it to manipulate people, and later when she falls in love for real.

Sola's Matsuri Shihou is also another very good example of a "playful flirt" character. Hitagi has the same appeal - her flirting is just naughtier than the previous two examples.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So... if you had to apply personality traits to the term "moe" the way that you apply personality traits to the term "tsundere", what traits would they be, in your opinion?

There's so many paths to cuteness that producing a comprehensive list would take a lot of time and thinking. I mean, just from my previous examples, you have the shy girl, the playful flirt, and the lovable grouch. And there's just as much variety in some of the areas I haven't touched on yet, from the sick girl like EF's Chihiro Shindou who actually is pretty dependent on others, to the strong loner type like Kanon's Mai Kawasumi.

P.S. synaethetic, would I be correct in assuming that your definition of moe comes largely from tvtropes? Because it so, that explains quite a bit, they draw a much firmer line between moe and badass adorable than I do.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Uh, I can't relate to the first and third listed archetypes at all.

Key (and basically by extension Kyoani) has built its brand on the first type of girl. The third is the gray-haired quiet girl (Rei, Yuki, Primula, Felli, Vanilla) archetype or any tomboy in many series and media.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Key (and basically by extension Kyoani) has built its brand on the first type of girl. The third is the gray-haired quiet girl (Rei, Yuki, Primula, Felli, Vanilla) archetype or any tomboy in many series and media.

I forgot about the dick-ish level of teasing some of the girls put up with in Kanon and Air... I noticed it far less in Clannad. The fact the two most memorable character of Kanon for me are ones that either weren't teased or fought back doesn't really help.

I'm still not seeing the third one. Most of the quiet loner girls remained as such, so I'm not thinking of much in the way of attempts to "fix" them.

[Archon_Wing]

Aha, Rei. Yea, I'm quite sure the fact that she decided to stand up for herself without the help of wussy-boy Shinji or any other man and decided she has had it with being taken advantage by other asshole men and finally become her own person without being dependent on anything else is a terrible, terrible instance of character development.

But nobody gets the message or the fact that Rei's personality was intended to be a bad thing, and instead we get OMG TEH REI!

[bhl88]

Probably moe and kawaii resurrected when Japan lost and became America's little sibling (the symbolism of moe and kawaii is probably the position of Japan...)

Maybe...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Actually, when I think about it, it's not really her manipulation that's cute, it's how she goes about it.

Tsugumi is an icy character, but she's also a very playful flirt - both when she initially is doing it to manipulate people, and later when she falls in love for real.

Sola's Matsuri Shihou is also another very good example of a "playful flirt" character. Hitagi has the same appeal - her flirting is just naughtier than the previous two examples.

Ok... "playful flirt" can indeed be very moe.

There's so many paths to cuteness that producing a comprehensive list would take a lot of time and thinking. I mean, just from my previous examples, you have the shy girl, the playful flirt, and the lovable grouch. And there's just as much variety in some of the areas I haven't touched on yet, from the sick girl like EF's Chihiro Shindou who actually is pretty dependent on others, to the strong loner type like Kanon's Mai Kawasumi.

You see... this is the problem, imo, with basing "moe" on personality characteristics. Those personality characteristics are all over the board (at least for some moe fans like yourself), and in some cases, these personality characteristics are even diametrically opposite to each other (i.e. finding a 'strong loner type' moe as well as finding 'dependent sick girl' moe).

So, when moe is defined by personality characteristics it makes the term... unwieldy, and can lead to people assigning whatever personality characteristics that they simply like/dislike in general to the term "moe" based on if they already like/dislike "moe".

From this thread, I get a distinct impression of "Moe is personalities that I like" from some of its fans and "Moe is personalities that I don't like" from many of its critics. And, well, that kind of would make any discussion on moe pointless, wouldn't it?


Unless you can tell me personality characteristics that you like, but that you don't consider moe... perhaps then a better and more consistent sense of the personality aspect of moe can rise to the surface. Perhaps a common thread running through all "moe" personalities can be discerned, through filtering out likable personality characteristics that aren't moe in the eyes of moe fans.

Barring that, though, I still find it better to view "moe" as simply physically cute... cute to the degree of wanting to hug and protect the immensely cute character.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm still not seeing the third one. Most of the quiet loner girls remained as such, so I'm not thinking of much in the way of attempts to "fix" them.

I now get what Veritas meant by the third one.

And... I do think that the "fixing" aspect of this character type is overplayed in his description of it.

However, these characters do tend to open up a bit over time, and become less emotionally closed off.

And... of course they have to in order to date with other characters.

You can't emotionally connect to somebody who's emotionally cut off as much as this female character type tends to be at the beginning... and dating somebody that you can't even emotionally connect to seems rather absurd, doesn't it?


Why would this necessary character development bother Veritas, or anybody, for that matter?


Besides, the same is true of quiet, loner guys, too.

Of course they have to change a bit in order to enter into serious relationships.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

My opinion on this is somewhat different. I love a lot of shows which were obviously designed with moe as a core element, like K-On and Clannad, and find myself hating shows from other genres that make half-assed attempts at having moe appeal to disguise the fact the rest of the show is half-assed too.

I agree with you there; K-On! and Clannad both did the "genrefication of moe" quite well. Both shows amused me, made me laugh at times, and I was seriously interested and cared what happened to the various characters. I think that's more a mark of well-designed characters than anything else.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Eh, I'd describe Sengoku Nadeko as moe above all else, but she's hardly a character I'd describe as flat and shallow. Fleshing out a moe character isn't really any different from fleshing out any other archetype... it's hardly rocket science.

Nadeko's arc was a bit short for me to get a real good feel of her character. I'm not saying she's shallow because of the moe tendencies, but that she's shallow because her arc was shorter and less-detailed than other arcs.

Nadeko didn't get the same kind of character development that Senjougahara (who is a major character, even in arcs outside of her own) and Kanbaru (who had a rather long arc) did. So I'm saying she suffers a bit of the Nena Trinity Syndrome--screwed by the writers.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

This.

I love it when my sometimes mangled English is so wonderfully simplified by someone else. Props to you, good sir.

Ah, that's "good ma'am" thanks very much. ^^; But yeah, that's just how I see it. The fact is "moe" is such a vaguely-defined term that apparently means different things to a lot of people, but content creators know it's popular (and therefore profitable). Hence the bum-rush of "moe" shows (some obviously better than others; I consider K-On! to be quite good).

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Aha, Rei. Yea, I'm quite sure the fact that she decided to stand up for herself without the help of wussy-boy Shinji or any other man and decided she has had it with being taken advantage by other asshole men and finally become her own person without being dependent on anything else is a terrible, terrible instance of character development.

But nobody gets the message or the fact that Rei's personality was intended to be a bad thing, and instead we get OMG TEH REI!

Yeah, I remember reading about Hideaki Anno facepalming when he heard about the fans squeeing over Rei's Emotionless Girl/Ill Girl personality, his original intent being to squick the viewers out and be repelled by her.

Misaimed Fandom for real.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I agree with you there; K-On! and Clannad both did the "genrefication of moe" quite well. Both shows amused me, made me laugh at times, and I was seriously interested and cared what happened to the various characters. I think that's more a mark of well-designed characters than anything else.

Regarding Clannad (haven't really watched K-on), I initially wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole for fear of moetardation. I watched it again only after the entire thing stopped airing, and I found it pretty interesting how those moe quirks weren't always treated just cute, and actually part of a greater issue that had to be solved in order to become a complete person. And intrestingly, the male lead also had his own insecurities and flaws that took the entire series to overcome and weren't played for comedy as per your typical anime. So it's not just a guy solving the problem of cute girls, but he's also overcoming his own issues while doing it so there's actually a mutual growth here.

In any case, by the end of the first season, most of the characters had mostly grown over their initial issues (aka let's just drop the romance harem crap-- it just aint gonna work) and thus were characters that had moe characteristics, but weren't completely defined by it. That to me is probably the distinction between a good and bad character. A bad character is defined by their initial description and whatever labels they intend to furfill. A better character has these things as traits. In other words, I don't mind characters that have plot devices, I hate characters that are plot devices.

And of course, there's always my avatar. Unlike most characters of her type who tend to be very competent but overly aloof, detached, and basically nonfunctional when it comes to social skills such as Mai Kawasumi and Yuki Nagato. Tomoyo is mostly well adjusted to people (except Sunohara but who really is?) and doesn't really need any helping anyways. Ok, there's the beating up people part, but I can buy that for some reason. And it's mostly self defense anyways. So she's just not cool for the sake of being cool. The only weakness in her character is that she comes pretty close to being a Mary Sue. Not that I don't like Mai or Yuki-- I actually have a weak spot for those characters but Tomoyo just comes across as a bit more independent and not so reliant on the male lead. Personally I hate it when you have this female character that seems strong and self-sufficient but it ends up she needs a man anyways (which is also why Tomoyo's associated OVA is not as good to me)

Yeah, I remember reading about Hideaki Anno facepalming when he heard about the fans squeeing over Rei's Emotionless Girl/Ill Girl personality, his original intent being to squick the viewers out and be repelled by her.

Misaimed Fandom for real.

And you might ask yourself, what's the point in creating a complex character when people will simplify them to the point they become cardboard? When you can just cut up a character into mere traits and body parts, then you get a lot of the crap people are complaining about. It is without doubt that infamous scene at EoE's start was a symbol of frustration against this.

IMO, it's not just moe really. It can be anything where they serve you characters that are just the sum of their parts. And that's not good enough. So I have plenty of complains about moe, but also about every archetype you can imagine. Whether moe perpetuates this more is something I'm fairly undecided on.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

IMO, it's not just moe really. It can be anything where they serve you characters that are just the sum of their parts. And that's not good enough. So I have plenty of complains about moe, but also about every archetype you can imagine. Whether moe perpetuates this more is something I'm fairly undecided on.

I don't think moe really perpetuates this more, I think because it's such a big fad right now and the examples are so abundant and obvious it's just the first thing we think about.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I don't think moe really perpetuates this more, I think because it's such a big fad right now and the examples are so abundant and obvious it's just the first thing we think about.

moe is not a big fad, the majority of anime fans, least from my perspective, just choose to see it as one

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Unless you can tell me personality characteristics that you like, but that you don't consider moe... perhaps then a better and more consistent sense of the personality aspect of moe can rise to the surface. Perhaps a common thread running through all "moe" personalities can be discerned, through filtering out likable personality characteristics that aren't moe in the eyes of moe fans.

Barring that, though, I still find it better to view "moe" as simply physically cute... cute to the degree of wanting to hug and protect the immensely cute character.

Rather than trying to backtrack from what I perceive as moe, maybe it makes more sense to start with the “moe” itself means and work our way forward.

Originally Posted by C.A.

The word 'Moe' is originally Chinese, but the word itself never had its modern meanings until Japanese anime and manga somehow popularised its meaning.

If I were to put moe into its most fundamental meanings, it would be a combination of 'cute', 'young', 'innocent/pure'. In other words, being Moe is looking and behaving attractively while being virginal and chaste.

This definition is a good start, but I feel that the wording “virginal and chaste” is problematic. The implied sexual activity in the EF anime didn’t really impact on the moe of the characters involved, so clearly sexuality and moe can coexist. And clearly, I think it could be said that Tayutama’s Mifuyu Kisaragi is pretty moe in this not quite safe for work picture. http://moe.imouto.org/post/show/6149...itake-swimsuit

In both the EF and Tayutama cases, however, these sexually charged elements are accompanied by a general cuteness. The most “moe” couple in EF is one of those cute pairings you can’t help but cheer for, and Mifuyu’s cuteness speaks for itself. In both cases, there is a more innocent attraction taking place alongside the sexual one. This second attraction is “moe” – a non-sexual attraction that may or may not be accompanied by a sexual one.

I think “young and innocent” is a good place to start looking for a definition of moe then. But I don’t think innocence in the moe sense means sexual innocence – it’s more along the lines of being idealistic and uncynical. “Young and unjaded” if you will.

Actually, the “unjaded” bit is probably even more important, as I would consider a number of immortal characters such as Matsuri Shihou and Horo to be moe. They’re certainly not young (although they appear that way), and both have encountered pretty deep sorrow in the past – but their general attitudes are so “playful” that they are able to have moe appeal.

This definition probably does mean I need to rethink the “moe” of some personality types. After all, it’s hard to really call Aisaka Taiga “unjaded”. And while I would still submit that Hitagi is moe due to her playfulness, the sheer snark she puts out means she isn’t high on the list.

I would, however, submit that moe still manages to cover a wide range of character types… not just the very childish characters like some of the Kanon girls and Yui (whom I actually do find very cute) but also the aforementioned older characters like Horo and Matsuri who retain a playful nature in spit of their age. And the core of moe itself is not as geared towards submissive girls as critics may claim… in addition to the aforementioned Horo and Matsuri, you also have characters like Nanoha.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I now get what Veritas meant by the third one.

And... I do think that the "fixing" aspect of this character type is overplayed in his description of it.

However, these characters do tend to open up a bit over time, and become less emotionally closed off.

And... of course they have to in order to date with other characters.

You can't emotionally connect to somebody who's emotionally cut off as much as this female character type tends to be at the beginning... and dating somebody that you can't even emotionally connect to seems rather absurd, doesn't it?

I’m kind of wondering about this too. Especially since many of the loner girls I’ve seen in anime are quite strong characters.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Yeah, I remember reading about Hideaki Anno facepalming when he heard about the fans squeeing over Rei's Emotionless Girl/Ill Girl personality, his original intent being to squick the viewers out and be repelled by her.

Misaimed Fandom for real.

Moral: if you want a character to be creepy, don’t have her spend most of the series coming across as a lonely, war traumatized girl. Because that’s how she comes across for most of the series, and the feelings it evokes is more “awww” than creepiness. And

Spoiler for ”Evangelion”:

The fact she’s a series of clones being used by NERV doesn’t actually fix the problem. That just means she's being exploited by NERV and you should feel sorry for her.

Unless I'm forgetting something major, there's nothing all that creepy about Rei until End of Eva.

[Vexx]

Sometimes authors create something (or a character) they don't quite understand themselves