Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actaully i think Tomino stoped wanting to make Gundam series because he was no longer interesting in making them...
I believe he waned to put Gundam behind him a work on something else, something new

I was referring to G Gundam, actually. The AUs were created so that Tomino didn't have to be involved anymore, seeing as how his shows were getting unpopular at the time (both F91 and Victory were commercial failures).

Turn A only reiterated the fact that Tomino cannot make a financially successful show. Though the recent unexpected success of the Zeta movies have put him in a better light amongst Sunrise execs.

DVD's... well, doing better then GS is a bit of surprise... not so sure about the rest of the gundam universes... does that "best DVD sales" also inculde things like VHS... afterall, most Gundam series were popular back before DVD was the popular medium... and i think it does make sence that an old series that was orginally sold as VHS would have lower DVD sales than a series that is newer and orginally released on DVD... afterall, the only ones that would buy the DVD's of the older series are hardcore fans (just having the VHS isn't good enough for them), and those new to the fanchise

Referring to DVD only. Obviously some of the older series would definitely have better video sales in general, seeing as how the VHS and LDs for, say, MSG have been out for almost twenty years.

But point is that Destiny's DVD sales surpassed those of GS. I think that's big enough of a success right there.

[FogHog]

Originally Posted by brightman

But point is that Destiny's DVD sales surpassed those of GS. I think that's big enough of a success right there.

they did??? I thought the GS DVDs mounted to 1.5 million total sales compared to 1 million in GSD. But of course that figure was back in november, i think. But it's tough to imagine GSD piling up half a million sales in two months. Anyways, what are the updated sales figure?

[cajunman380]

Time for my twenty five cents.

Gundam seed destiny did do well in the sense it met some of the financial goals of the company called bandai. you know, those guys in suits who would willingly sell turd if it would make a quick buck. as brightman said
despite the fact that it met some of their goals. it didnt do as well overall as seed. in fact brightman if you dont mind ill use
one of your previous posts as evidence.

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I read from some forums that their GSD model sales aren't that great in comparing to their DVDs and figures sales. See the picture below for reduced-price models at one Japanese store. I believe the front side is showing all Impulse models.

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/3899/9663082qm.jpg

There's also a big price drop for both Destiny and Strike Freedom models after the special festival held on 11/19/2005 in Japan.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6996/set018he.jpg

I even read from other Japanese forums dated in 11/2005 that GSD's net profit after deducting all expenses from their gross profit (selling DVDs, figures, models and etc) may be around 1/10th of the net profit for GS original series. So, selling over 1 million copies of GSD DVD sales doesn't usually mean their net profit is at satisfactory leve

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6759/set023tq.jpg


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so to bandai. as long as it met their goals it was good enough to merit a seqel which is kinda a double edged sword for us because it at least
will give us the viewers a chance to see if they will fix their screwups. But it also failed in the fact that it didnt do as well as seed. if it was done right bandai could have made twice as much and still be making money in merchandising in terms of not only dvds and cds but models, posters, comics etc all of which seed is known for.

they greenlighted a sequel because they probably wondered why it didnt make as much as seed and the fact they may have realized that they screwed up a potential cash cow. ive seen post from the animation director criticizing morisawa for her lateness. ive seen tv ratings for destiny that put it near the bottom. ive seen fukudas true comments that basically admits he messed up. The most proinent line being "anyone could have done my job".

theres also this
this blog reported that sunrise was announced about
"Gundam seed 3rd season" on comic gum 2006/feb (its sold yesterday. )

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/moonphase/
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/moonphase/20051223


サンライズ「ガンダムSEED」3作目にゴーサイン。
コミックガム2月号の『アニメ、ちょっちイイ話、イタイ話』より。
元々オリジナル物を売りにしていたのが、最近の原作モノばかりでは
本末転倒なので、やはりオリジナル物でという事になったらしい。　
追記. コラム筆者は響恭香氏です。

trancelation.
---------------------------------------------------
sunsise order [gundam seed] 3rd.
source by column "anime about litlle pain & fine "
GUNDAM SEED team took originality seriously . however Destiny staff
use too many idea from zeta and other gundam series.
Seed 3rd team took originality seriously again like as 1st SEED.

ps: Column editor is hibiki kyoka.
---------------------------------------------------
(hibiki kyoka is famous for being detailed to Gundam stuff team.)

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
now why would they go out of their way to add those extra lines unless there were negative things being said about destiny?

look, destiny is popular. but then again in what sense. people talked about it, people watched episodes every week and commented about it. we were all anxious about what was gonna happend because hoestly we couldnt predict. but when we saw the outcome we were all disappointed because for all the hype and false promotions it gave, destiny didnt come close to delivering.
ill basically say all the screwups have been mentioned already so no need to reiterate. destiny did its job in sparking up discussions and alienating fanbases to warrign factions and getting people talking. does it mean that everyone liked or have nothing but good things to say about destiny? NO. but it got them talking.
a lot of negative things were done in this series but most of them were a first. ive asked this question in other forums? but can anyone name me one series in which a main character was NERFED on his own show. becaus i assure you no one else has. and for those who want to use the dBZ reference. gohan had many episodes devoted to his development and he did take part in some key battles. even in the buu saga he had a role. and plus he was the original prtagonists son. linkage and purpose right there.

DID destiny make me want to watch the next episode: yes, was i interested in watching it: till the 40s yes, did i have hopes: yes.
did it leave me with a good feeling of satisfaction as seed did : NO, did i like any of the endings: NO
and most importantly, would i buy the dvds when they come out as i did with seed :NO.

NOw before anyone says anything. i was one of the folk who had the benefit of watchin a series before purchasing. many of the people who bought the dvds probably never saw the tv show and felt. hey if seed is good destiny may be even better. remember not everyone has internet access and many dont go to forums. you can choose to igonore me but all im saying is that there could be numerous explanations to the dvd sales. (fanserivce "cough")


Destiny is probably one of those series i would probably like to forget that never existed. never has one series made me destest an alternate universe or its old cast of characters so much.
Ironically fukuda did what tomino didnt. he was able to alienate fans.


my hands are getting tired but as a closing. in a sad way only two groups suffered from this the fans (namely shinn fans, deaka and yzak fans, mionerva fans, SHINO fans and EA) and
Fukuda and his wife morisawa. prevalently due to his constant contradictions like the ones below.

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Cosmos wrote:
Because of THIS ending, I like to add this message for everyone.

Fukuda has another interview lately again. Though he has been quite worn-out because of various pressure, he may challenge to have a third series and he is thinking of choosing 3 characters from GSD as his next series main characters.

http://www.sunrise-anime.jp/sunnews/...?offset=0#1019

???????????????????????????

???????????SEED??????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????DESTINY????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????

Interesting...a third series being considered in Fukuda's head? We'll just have to wait for his final decision about this. Just don't get your hopes too high.
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It actually translates to fukuda or the staff had a hard time switching between 3 main characters throughout destiny, doesn't mention anything about a sequel.

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From the same Chinese blog which has translated the past Animage interviews before. Animage 2005 December issue, Fukuda interview.

http://blog.yam.com/ekliptiko/archives/706118.html


--真這個角色是怎樣產生的?

福田　兩澤好像把他想成是純粹的少年。煌一開始登場時像是個普通少年,不過根本一點都不普通。 而阿斯蘭是軍 人,而且是扎夫特領袖之子。真的話,我想是照抄當今孩子們真實面貌的角色。


- How was the Shinn character created?

Fukuda : Morosawa seems to want to make him a pure youngster. Kira seemed to be an ordinary youngster at first, but he was actually not ordinary at all. Athrun is a soldier, and the son to PLANT's leader. So I want to copy the realistic aspects of today's youngsters if possible.



--最終話與阿斯蘭的衝突讓真發現了自己的錯誤,您有想過讓他跑去煌那邊的可能性嗎?

福田　從一開始就沒有這個打算。因為我想做的是真在最後失去了一切,只剩下露娜瑪莉亞的故事。 希望大家不要 誤解的是,我完全不認為飛鳥真不是正義的。真和杜蘭朵的所作所為是為了世界著想,煌這邊反而是 有些偏離了正 義。



- Shinn seems to have realized that he's wrong during the final confrontation against Athrun, have you ever thought of the possibility that he may go to Kira's side?

Fukuda : I have absolutely no such intention right from the start, because I always want to create a story where in the end Shinn loses everything except Lunamaria. I hope people don't misunderstand it, I don't think Shinn is incorrect (unjust? wrong?) at all. What Shinn and Dullindal have done are all for the good of the world, on the other hand Kira's side is the one which has somewhat deviated from the path of justice.


--但那不就是煌所說的不會進化的世界嗎?

福田　是啊。我想杜蘭朵對人類是覺得絕望的。如煌和拉克絲所言,世上充滿戰亂,將來會如何沒有人能提出明確 的答案。人類永遠無法讓戰亂停止,戰爭的本質無法改變。那麼就從根本來改變世界的構造,將戰爭從人類世界除 去。對杜蘭朵來說這才是人類的救贖之道。他不是為了自己的慾望而想支配世界的,以這點來說他並非邪惡。就算 有人反駁說這種世界無法進化,他也能回答那麼放著人類不管的話戰爭會消失嗎


- But isn't that (Dullindal's world) a world unable to evolve according to Kira?

Fukuda : yes, I think Dulldinal is pessimistic (holds no hope?) for mankind. Just like what Kira and Lacus said, the world is full of wars and conflicts, no one can give a clear answer to what the future will be like. Mankind can never stop wars and conflicts, the nature of war cannot be changed. So the basic structure of the world needs to be changed to erase wars from the human world. For Dullindal that's the path of salvation for mankind. He does not want to control the world out of his own desires, so he's not evil in this sense. Even if someone opposes him and says that kind of world will be unable to evolve, he can still counter that if we just leave mankind alone wars will never disappear.


--最後,上月號兩澤hundino在訪談中說「阿斯蘭與卡佳里是誤會的戀情」引起了很大的反應, 監督您對此的 意見是?

福田　我的意見和兩澤一樣。卡佳里如果要在國家與戀人中作選擇,絕對會選擇國家。而阿斯蘭的地 位還達不到連 卡佳里和她的國家一起保護的地步,所以他們的戀情在當今這種身份下是無法成立的吧。

--就是說兩人至今為止的感情並不是戀愛?

福田　與其說是戀情不如說是戰友間的感情。接吻時雖然會臉紅但那是由於害羞與困惑,不是成熟的 戀愛感情。


- Lastly, last month Morosawa said the love between Athrun and Cagalli is a misunderstanding, which leads to great reactions. What's the Director's take on this?

Fukuda : My take is the same as Morosawa's. If Cagalli chooses between her country and her lover, she will definitely choose her country, and Athrun has not reached to a position high enough to protect both Cagalli and her country. So based on their current positions, their relationship can't hold up.

- So the feelings between them up to now is not love?

Fukuda : Instead of love, it's more like the feelings between war comrades. Although they blushed while kissing, that's because of shyness and confusion, not mature feeling of love.

No more AsuCaga


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in a way though im glad it happened because it brought fukuda down from his pedestal. now he can no longer make any arrogant comments about other gundam series because he lacks any credibility now and i would like to see him walk into an anime convention with a proud and smug look.
oh ya. one more thing. i think we already had a topic on worst series. certainy there are gundam shows sligtly worse than destiny. but g savior was a MOVIE and even then its hard to find and sd gundam i believe was meant to be a kids show. thats my twently five cents on it.

[Demongod86]

Neh, well we know Fukuda and Morosawa screwed up bigtime. Shinn is no ordinary youngster. Once you get into a gundam and start shooting guns and gain the highest military honor at age 16, YOU ARE NO ORDINARY YOUNGSTER!

[demon_god04]

I think he meant the additude of an ordinary youngster. Ofcourse a 16 year old piloting mechs isnt going to be literally an ordinary kid.

[dom33]

another problem was alot of the characters are morons cagalli can't maintain control of her own countrey(sp?),athrun hits shinn for being the hero yet athrun did the samething shinn did in the last war!,lacus instead of taking resposibility in her action like she should she goes to an island to watch kira look at the ocean!,and kira acusses dullinil of being evil with no proof what so ever!(my teacher told me that's bad demongod86 cause i know you'll say something about it) and their actions in the ocean arc show how stupid they are at least when shinn makes a mistake he adimts it.(see 30-31).
yet another problem is all the the clip shows i mean is it really necassary to have four(five if you count edidted) in a series?and they remind us what happened what two episodes ago wich we can remember ourselves.
i'm currently rewatching phase 6 and i don't see why shinn is impressed since it was 2 on 1 in the fight with sting, and dullinil did a 180 in the series and talia is definetly a good captain better than murrue and would have won agianst her if it wornt for plot holes and devices,(people on gamefaqs know this fact),i don't undestand what happened whe that ginn grapped shinn did it activate self destruct?or did shinn blast it with imulse's torso cannons? oh well i liked the little rey and yzak interaction thought i wish the old and new interacted more,i wished saito(leader of the ginns) lived he could have been the coordinater's version of blue cosmos(the natural have blue cosmos) he could have been used to show the coordinater agianst natural thing,though i don't know what his group call themselves i guess red cosmos would be a fan name for it.why was kira mentioned in the preview when he does nothing next epi?

[4Tran]

cajunman380, that's a pretty interesting series of quotes there. I find their take on Cagalli especially thought-provoking. However, it doesn't actually contribute anything to the question of Destiny's success or failure.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Neh, well we know Fukuda and Morosawa screwed up bigtime. Shinn is no ordinary youngster. Once you get into a gundam and start shooting guns and gain the highest military honor at age 16, YOU ARE NO ORDINARY YOUNGSTER!

It's pretty obvious he meant his attitude/personality, and those are perfectly normal for teenagers. Actually, it's normal for humans in general.

As I said in another post, "Kira and Lacus represent what is not humanity" - they are of some ueber unattainable level of power. Thus, Shinn represents what is. He has survivors guilt, loss, love over reason, differing choice... and most importantly, anger.

[servitude]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

@ 4tran: voluntary response bias renders the web boards' responses as absolutely inconclusive to the overall success of GSD.

BASIC STATISTICS AT WORK HERE, PEOPLE!

IJ is Justice mk. II as well. The same EXACT whirling dervish fighting style, except now with more tools to make it more effective. Same with Freedom's, except with Freedom, you get to see its effects far more because it's an AoE spamming suit...

Though seriously...Lacus should realize that she can do away with the precision HiMAT beams and just latch on a wing-zero style buster rifle. Want to end a war quickly? Do it Heeroically. With merciless slaughter.

Couldn't agree more.. what more it'll shorten the war by a mile and end the show by ep 45....

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Neh, well we know Fukuda and Morosawa screwed up bigtime. Shinn is no ordinary youngster. Once you get into a gundam and start shooting guns and gain the highest military honor at age 16, YOU ARE NO ORDINARY YOUNGSTER!

Well, weren't most of the Gundam protagonists guilty of this same crime too?

Problem was, even though they were all teenagers, their roles were properly explained (how they got to that status, how their Gundams got to be uber powerful, etc., etc.).

Shinn and Athrun were explained, but Kira's unexplainable GOD status is quite some of Gundam's many WTF moments.

cajunman380, that's a pretty interesting series of quotes there. I find their take on Cagalli especially thought-provoking. However, it doesn't actually contribute anything to the question of Destiny's success or failure.

Yes it does, in a way.

GS made them a couple, whereas in GSD...

GS was successful in making them out as a couple, but GSD...

And so Morosawa's rant that AsuCaga < ShinnLuna makes much more sense, doesn't it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yes it does, in a way.
GS made them a couple, whereas in GSD...
GS was successful in making them out as a couple, but GSD...

Whether Athrun and Cagalli stay as a couple doesn't really have much bearing on the success/failure of Destiny, unless someone can show a correlation.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

And so Morosawa's rant that AsuCaga < ShinnLuna makes much more sense, doesn't it.

The explanation is that Athrun and Cagalli's relationship is detrimental to her duty. It's a relatively simply notion that has more complex implications. It's not so much that the interview brings anything new to the table, instead, all it does is show what they were trying to accomplish. Since it was more or less matches my interpretation, I would have to say that they were fairly successful.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Whether Athrun and Cagalli stay as a couple doesn't really have much bearing on the success/failure of Destiny, unless someone can show a correlation.

GSD was successful in destroying this canon couple, thank you very much. Destroying in the sense that there are also AsuMey fans who could prove that thier relationship is going Fukuda-d...and the fact that there are actually AsuMey fans.

The explanation is that Athrun and Cagalli's relationship is detrimental to her duty. It's a relatively simply notion that has more complex implications. It's not so much that the interview brings anything new to the table, instead, all it does is show what they were trying to accomplish. Since it was more or less matches my interpretation, I would have to say that they were fairly successful.

But they didn't actually explain thoroughly how the hell they were able to get away with it, after all the $#&%@*$@ they went through in GS that made them an official couple...

If ever, Fukuda was never successful in saying that Cagalli had to choose her duties to Orb over Athrun to the point that the weird farewell and a whole lot of other stuff thrown in for good measure only made a lot of things even more ...

Plus I was also being sarcastic in that last statement I did.

[Crusader]

but a fail to see what that relatiohship has to do with GSD being a failure. Gundam isn't exactly known for well known love relatioships, but even then, they still aren't that big.

[Demongod86]

Why is Kira a god now? Because of his goddess. That Lacus dust is very VERY powerful. It turns the kind-hearted to gods and mercilessly slaughters anyone else.

About Asucaga vs. Asumey...Meyrin bailed Athrun out and then really had nowhere else to go besides Archangel. That and she got to hang out with the world-famous Lacus Clyne!!! You gotta love that ^_^ she gave Luna at the end.

But how is Cagalli running her country detrimental to her relationship with Athrun? He's going to be flying the IJ in the name of Orb and haxing up any offenders!

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

But how is Cagalli running her country detrimental to her relationship with Athrun? He's going to be flying the IJ in the name of Orb and haxing up any offenders!

Umm well, Lets see, Athrun is awell known traitor to ZAFT not once, but Twice. Theforeharboirign right out in the open is an open house for zaft to attack them if they want them to hand him over. but then again... the CE has never been that intricate sooo i could be wrong.

[dorrito]

i think we musn't forget that another serie is commin up, the next serie might answer a lot of our questions, and clear things up a bit.

But the thing that made gsd fail= not a good story, especially not compared to seed. The characters/relations are mixed up. There is no logical sense in it...

And the end just horrible. I really think that the end is the main source for the failing of the seed D serie

[dom33]

demongod86 lacus godnesses(sp?) was never explained,and your still trying to convince people gsd didn't suck?hah!and you think i'm crazy!here's something everyone should look at.it show the 2 sides of gundam fans.
light side i mean smart i mean conserative fans.
don't give crap about animation.
care about the story and charecter development.
like well written characters(fllay,shinn)
dislike plot holes,devices, and badly written characterscough*lacus*cough
also hate annoying gods.
like battles with out plot deices and holes.
hate one sided battles with plot devices and holes.
80% of the fandom.
exs:me,wing darkness,sniper-sensei, and shinji103 or u.c. fans.
dark side i mean morons i mean non-consertative fans.
care too much about animation
don't give crap about the story and character development.
hate well written characters.
like plot devices,holes and badly written characters.
like annoying gods.
hate battles without plot holes and devices.
20% of the fandom.
ex:demongod86

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

But how is Cagalli running her country detrimental to her relationship with Athrun? He's going to be flying the IJ in the name of Orb and haxing up any offenders!

agreed...
Even in final plus, it doesn't really say where Athrun goes... Lacus is now back in Plant and we know Kira's gonna follow her... So Athrun could end up going back to Plant to stay near Lacus... OR he could just go back to Orb...

I mean, i don't really understand to well by what they mean when they say "Athrun has not reached to a position high enough to protect both Cagalli and her country"... Afterall, Athrun is one of the Demigods... with the mellee monster Infinite Justice by his side he could become Caggalli's knight in shining armor, the Red Knight of Orb (or something cliche' like that )... When it comes to battles he would be a inspiration to the soldiers, rasing their moral when he storms the battlefield...

Not to mention... Caggalli was gonna arrange marry Jona!
Jona may be a memeber of one of the families of Orb, but his family is already part of the Orb council... Marrying Caggalli would do NOTHING to help protect Orb... The only good thing that would come from the JonaXCagalli maggiage is a slight increase in Orb moral for a week... and Caggalli marrying ANYONE could do that

ok but, seriously, all that aside... i was never a AsuCaga fan, so i don't mind the idea of them breaking up, or that their previous relationship was more of misunderstanding, or that Caggalli chose Orb over Athrun... Personally, i'm just annoyed at how it was handled

but i digress a bit...

Originally Posted by Crusader

but a fail to see what that relatiohship has to do with GSD being a failure. Gundam isn't exactly known for well known love relatioships, but even then, they still aren't that big.

I wouldn't say its a failure either... more a gripe amognst fans... so while it may not be an actual cause for failure, it kinda just adds to reasons why poeple did like GSD...

And though the Gundam isn't known for it's relationships... CE kinda did something different... fans grew attached to the characters in a different way then they had in the past (my guess is that the bishiness of the guys and girls had something to do with it)... unlike most previous gundams, the love relationships between the characters become something that the fans really wanted to see

Originally Posted by Crusader

Umm well, Lets see, Athrun is awell known traitor to ZAFT not once, but Twice. Theforeharboirign right out in the open is an open house for zaft to attack them if they want them to hand him over. but then again... the CE has never been that intricate sooo i could be wrong.

Actually, despite his treason, after the first war he was pratically a hero in Plant... the same can be said for Dearaka... not to mention Lacus is also a traitor in the same sence as Athrun, and she was actual asked to return to Plant at the end of GSD... more then likely, despite his two time treasons... he will still be seen as a hero to most of Plant

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by dom33

demongod86 lacus godnesses(sp?) was never explained,and your still trying to convince people gsd didn't suck?hah!and you think i'm crazy!here's something everyone should look at.it show the 2 sides of gundam fans.
light side i mean smart i mean conserative fans.
don't give crap about animation.
care about the story and charecter development.
like well written characters(fllay,shinn)
dislike plot holes,devices, and badly written characterscough*lacus*cough
also hate annoying gods.
like battles with out plot deices and holes.
hate one sided battles with plot devices and holes.
80% of the fandom.
exs:me,wing darkness,sniper-sensei, and shinji103 or u.c. fans.
dark side i mean morons i mean non-consertative fans.
care too much about animation
don't give crap about the story and character development.
hate well written characters.
like plot devices,holes and badly written characters.
like annoying gods.
hate battles without plot holes and devices.
20% of the fandom.
ex:demongod86

Don't speak for me. The animation was poor, I'll give you that...as for character development, Kira and Lacus WERE further developed. Kira DEFINITELY changed in GSD, from angsty crybaby to the best pilot in all of CE, with barely a drop of emotion. You're talking about plot devices? Like the fact that Kira had to lose to get SF? I can tolerate a LOT of different kinds of characters, but the one I CANNOT tolerate is the angsty raging crying teen. This does not just apply to Shinn. I'm talking about Harry Pothead, and all of the other angsty teen anime protagonists. Lacus might be a Mary Sue, but I'd rather go with her than like an angsty whiny Shinn. At least I liked developed characters rather than one that was just trashed halfway through the series. Shinn is well-written? Please. He's the typical angsting teen. Antihero my ass. He was so poorly written that he was thrown to the wayside halfway through the series because Fukuda could not figure out what to do with a character that was so poorly written, so he just sidelines him.

Oh well.

I enjoyed GSD, except the shameless reusing of animation, which made it halfway between a parody and a real anime.

[Shinji103]

VCV and Slayerx, you guys are my buddies.