The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages

[Catgirls]

Here are a few threads you might want to read through before considering animation as a major:

+ The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages
+ Sad state of the Animation Industry

[mit7059]

I can't draw for shit, so no. But I am planning on taking Japanese because of interest in Anime/Japan, I'd like to become a fansubbers so I can give something back.

[p3psi]

I really liked watching the NFL so I decided to major in football at ohio state. Didn't really pan out because it seems that I needed what they called talent and ability. So I soon after changed my major to a double major of my other intrests: sleeping and porn.

[Shini_GamI]

Originally Posted by mit7059

I can't draw for shit, so no. But I am planning on taking Japanese because of interest in Anime/Japan, I'd like to become a fansubbers so I can give something back.

Me too. Right now, I'm studying Japanese at school, if by chance I become a fansubber, I would probably get involve in it, even though I doubt I would become one xD

[Aoie_Emesai]

Absoutly not. I'm not obsessed with anime, but I would never major into animation, photoshop maybe, but not the other. Anime is great, but I rather go into engineering and eventually become an inventor ^_^. While I draw on the side and hopefully, eventually get my manga published.

ps: If you look down past my signature, you can see one of my character from it. you can judge my artwork yourself and pm me or just post here about it, try to to clotter the channel thougj^_^

[Spectacular_Insanity]

No. But I'd definitely take it as an on-and-off hobby (most of my hobbies are like that). I can't draw all that well, but I'm okay.

Here's my drawing that I posted some time ago:
Anime sketch

It's mediocre at best, and it's got major flaws. But it's the best I can do. This is the reason why I would fail at a career in animation.

That, and my interest lies in pharmaceuticals.

[Ending]

Unfortunately, I'm already about to finish my majors. And even if I could go back in time, I wouldn't be able to change them because my program is always the same: IT, comm, and business.

Don't forget that to professional artists anime is just one branch of style.

[Cyz]

Unfortunately, I can't draw either. But I do have an interest in animation. I'm planning to take some computer skills in case my main major is taking too long. You know, just to pass some time

[Deathkillz]

meh anime got me into photoshopping and creating cool images as a hobby...i wont mind doing fansubbing as a hobby but first ill have to leard jap first...which im quite enthusiastic about but its the amount of time that i have puts me down

[DaFool]

If you truly want to exercise your creative skills, you're better off starting a doujin circle group.

Do not work in the industry, you'll discover that its more about clout than talent. And if you're doing someone elses work, its even less about talent. Its amazing how many professionals within the industry do not even care about art.

If you don't live in Japan, you can never break into the anime industry. The best you can do -- if you live in Asia -- is to do outsource work. You might as well develop your own country's animation culture -- that is, if people other than you care at all. If you live in the west, you can land a good job in the animation field--though it will most likely be kids 3D cartoons and doubt if those are the things which excites your passions. Also note that that the animation industry is a severe boom and bust cycle...so be prepared.

Thus I always subscribe to by fans for fans approach. Doujinshi is the way to go. Sure, you're at the same risk of starvation, but at least you're in the right culture.

I've been employed in the animation industry for two and a half years. My main reason for entering was precisely because I love anime and animation in general. I'm exploring other business options such as the doujinshi circle I've mentioned as well as education (i.e. like putting up a school). If either of those takes off, I'm quitting my day job (or more like, night job).

Don't concentrate on an animation major, take it if its offered, but keep your skill sets wide open. Having a day job is far more important.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by DaFool

If you truly want to exercise your creative skills, you're better off starting a doujin circle group.

Do not work in the industry, you'll discover that its more about clout than talent. And if you're doing someone elses work, its even less about talent. Its amazing how many professionals within the industry do not even care about art.

If you don't live in Japan, you can never break into the anime industry. The best you can do -- if you live in Asia -- is to do outsource work. You might as well develop your own country's animation culture -- that is, if people other than you care at all. If you live in the west, you can land a good job in the animation field--though it will most likely be kids 3D cartoons and doubt if those are the things which excites your passions. Also note that that the animation industry is a severe boom and bust cycle...so be prepared.

Thus I always subscribe to by fans for fans approach. Doujinshi is the way to go. Sure, you're at the same risk of starvation, but at least you're in the right culture.

I've been employed in the animation industry for two and a half years. My main reason for entering was precisely because I love anime and animation in general. I'm exploring other business options such as the doujinshi circle I've mentioned as well as education (i.e. like putting up a school). If either of those takes off, I'm quitting my day job (or more like, night job).

Don't concentrate on an animation major, take it if its offered, but keep your skill sets wide open. Having a day job is far more important.

True to the heart. Animation isn't the best paying job in the world, unless you work with Disney and Pixar. If I beleive it's correct, they make a techer's salary. You might as well post your creations around the internet and become known from them.

[hiroober]

Well, it takes me some time to find out that my thread is merged here, but never mind and thanks very much for catgirls' two links. I've read through them all( yeah, one by one...sore eyes now), which also took me a while but definitely very infomative and lots of good points!

For my question about whether majoring in animation, I really didn't mean to major in inbewteening or even a little bit better to be a key animator....Animation major is not gonna train you to do inbetweening at all.... anyway, the biggest shock is that a storyboarder's value is soooooooo low. I knew that animators and inbetweeners are very poorly paid(tho the actual amount of $500/month is still a shock), but since sotryboarding is such an important position(ok, relatively) in the production pipeline, it's still get such a shitty payment? Man, that's so sad to know that....

Anyway, forget about my question. After reading through the 2 threads, what makes me feel so interesting, ok, I mean so weird, is that since animators are leading such misearable lives, then why? Only because it's their dreams? IMO, I really don't think so many people are gonna stick in the industry for as long as more than a couple of years if the condition is so bad. I mean, the reality is out there. Let's say if it's a very creative job but it pays poorly, that's kinda ok for some artists -- at least you get the "creative" side. If it's working like a machine and still pays poorly. What do people get? Nothing. Period. Anybody who's got a logical mind would quit after a tryout. How can they stay in the industry like somebody said for 10 years? Wow! It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm very glad to read through the discussion about 50+ new titles per season issue. That's just what I wanna ask. Since most of animes aired in the midnight, and only otakus watch them, plus watching animes is deemed inappropiate and not so common for the regular adults, here it comes my question. We all know that otaku only takes very small percentage out of the whole ppl, how can this little ppl support/consume the huge domestic anime market? I don't think there are many shows out of 50+ new titles are for the kids. The industry has made and is making so many animes, which means at least most of them must be profitable or most of the studios have already gone bankcrupt. Let alone 50+/season, even 20 titles squeezing in one season can make it very hard to stand out. If it's not a hit anime, how can it make enough money even just to cover the budget? Thinking of some mediocre graphic quality, mediocre story anime that aired at 3AM, who's gonna pay the bill? As we all know, making animation is not cheap at all compare to other motion picture. IMHO, making a mediocre TV drama can be cheaper than making a mediocre anime. Then why do producers go anime?

Sorry for the crappy or maybe repeated questions, I just kinda get more confused about how their system runs.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by hiroober

ok, I mean so weird, is that since animators are leading such misearable lives, then why? Only because it's their dreams? IMO, I really don't think so many people are gonna stick in the industry for as long as more than a couple of years if the condition is so bad. I mean, the reality is out there. Let's say if it's a very creative job but it pays poorly, that's kinda ok for some artists -- at least you get the "creative" side. If it's working like a machine and still pays poorly. What do people get? Nothing. Period. Anybody who's got a logical mind would quit after a tryout. How can they stay in the industry like somebody said for 10 years? Wow! It just doesn't make any sense to me.

1/3rd of the people who joined an anime production company quit in the first three months
1/3rd of that quit in six months
yet another 1/3rd quits in a year
and finally the 1/3rd quits within the next three years
the ones that remain...are animators.

We all know that otaku only takes very small percentage out of the whole ppl, how can this little ppl support/consume the huge domestic anime market?

It's hard to fathom what being an otaku is like in Japan from they eyes of an American. It practically means SPENDING ALL OF YOUR MONEY THAT YOU EARN on otaku related items. THAT MEANS, EVEN DEFYING FOOD AND BASIC NECESSITIES TO LIVE. If it's between saving 4,000 yen for food versus buying a 4,000 yen figurine, they choose the figurine over the food. It's that kind of mentality that the companies know and rely on to suck money out of the otakus' wallets, as they know they are suckers for limited edition goods and items. Do any American otakus even come to that level of consumption? How about buying three items of the EXACT same thing; one to show, one to store, and one as a backup? Many people also buy several copies of the exact same ero-game at different stores just so they can get the store-only limited edition items (I had a post about this somewhere, but unfortunately it seemed to have gotten lost in the crash earlier this year).

If an ero-game costs 8,800 yen, and if ten people buy three each of the exactly same thing...bam! The company just got a total of 264,000 yen (10 losers buying x 3 copies each x 8,800 yen per each copy = 264,000 yen).

The unit cost of producing an ero-game? Around ~5,000 yen per copy.
Cost of those ten copies: (5,000 yen x 10 losers buying x 3 copies each = 150,000 yen)

Profit to ero-game softhouse: 264,000 yen - 150,000 yen = 114,000 yen.

So, TYPE-MOON seemed to have sold over 100,000 copies of "Fate stay/night" within the first month.
If everyone bought it at 8,800 yen (which most people don't anyway as the in-store sales price is usually less than that)
100,000 x 8,800 yen = 880,000,000 yen
100,000 x 5,000 yen = 500,000,000 yen
profit to TYPE-MOON = 380,000,000 yen (approx. USD $3.2 million)

THAT'S NOT INCLUDING ALL THE ROYALTY BENEFITS TYPE-MOON RECEIVES COMING FROM FIGURINES, CD SALES, ANIME DVD SALES, TRADING CARDS, AND OTHER MERCHANDISE

See how shoving down moe~ down to otakus throats can make the otaku business a sizeable industry big enough to create an economical impact?

So, I guess the defining factor is that: Most American otakus (let alone normal people) will not buy "just a game" that is worth approx $90, whereas, otakus in Japan would blindly will (normal Japanese would think they are crazy as well).

If it's not a hit anime, how can it make enough money even just to cover the budget? Thinking of some mediocre graphic quality, mediocre story anime that aired at 3AM, who's gonna pay the bill? As we all know, making animation is not cheap at all compare to other motion picture. IMHO, making a mediocre TV drama can be cheaper than making a mediocre anime. Then why do producers go anime?

To sell merchandise. Producers don't make anime persay - it's the sponsors. The producer's job is to find sponsors. Sponsors will provide the money if they see that the anime can increase sales of their own items (deals like providing OP and ED songs so that they can sell their CDs, making figurines, etc.)

Basically, anime is just a tool. Profits do not come from DVD sales alone - profits are made by shoving related merchandise down into the suckers' (otakus') throats. It's also a way to increase sales of existing items as well. Remember "Suzumiya Haruhi"? It was popular enough to get its own anime, but once the anime aired, its light novel sales (which existed way before the anime) soared exponentially due to the influx of new fans. Kadokawa Shoten (one of the sponsors of the anime, and the publisher of the Haruhi light novels) was delightly pleased indeed, don't you think?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by kj1980

It's hard to fathom what being an otaku is like in Japan from they eyes of an American. It practically means SPENDING ALL OF YOUR MONEY THAT YOU EARN on otaku related items. THAT MEANS, EVEN DEFYING FOOD AND BASIC NECESSITIES TO LIVE. If it's between saving 4,000 yen for food versus buying a 4,000 yen figurine, they choose the figurine over the food. It's that kind of mentality that the companies know and rely on to suck money out of the otakus' wallets, as they know they are suckers for limited edition goods and items. Do any American otakus even come to that level of consumption? How about buying three items of the EXACT same thing; one to show, one to store, and one as a backup? Many people also buy several copies of the exact same ero-game at different stores just so they can get the store-only limited edition items (I had a post about this somewhere, but unfortunately it seemed to have gotten lost in the crash earlier this year)

I was thinking about this, and the question came into my head "Why doesn't this happen in america too?" Is there something inherently Japanese about such inane spending behavior? Of course, the answer is NO. However, in america we don't simply spend ALL the money we have, we spend MORE THAN THAT. We rack up credit card debt, we remorgatge our houses, we take payday loans... If someone in america spent like those otaku do, they'd almost immediately fall into serious debt, n'vr to return.
Indeed, it's Japan's inherent mistrust of banking and loan systems (and credit cards) which I think enables such radical behavior, as it provides a firewall between "spending all one's money on figurines" and "destroying one's life permanently".
The worst trouble these people ever seem to get into is borrowing money from friends or family.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

I was thinking about this, and the question came into my head "Why doesn't this happen in america too?" Is there something inherently Japanese about such inane spending behavior? Of course, the answer is NO. However, in america we don't simply spend ALL the money we have, we spend MORE THAN THAT. We rack up credit card debt, we remorgatge our houses, we take payday loans... If someone in america spent like those otaku do, they'd almost immediately fall into serious debt, n'vr to return.
Indeed, it's Japan's inherent mistrust of banking and loan systems (and credit cards) which I think enables such radical behavior, as it provides a firewall between "spending all one's money on figurines" and "destroying one's life permanently".
The worst trouble these people ever seem to get into is borrowing money from friends or family.

Also, remember that in Japan - everyone does not own or use cars like people in the U.S. Most of our commutes are done by WALKING (GASP! It's true, people CAN WALK! No wonder people here are thinner than obese Americans! It's because we practically get daily exercise just by commuting!) and taking the train (which the company usually provides the commuting cost from your home to work). I said this in another thread - if you can get along without a car, just imagine how much extra cash you would have in your hands if you didn't have to pay for car loans, insurance, gasoline, maintenance costs, registration, etc? An extra USD$200~USD$500 per month can make a huge difference in your spending habits, don't you think?

[hiroober]

Originally Posted by kj1980

1/3rd of the people who joined an anime production company quit in the first three months
1/3rd of that quit in six months
yet another 1/3rd quits in a year
and finally the 1/3rd quits within the next three years
the ones that remain...are animators.

I really appreciate the information, kj1980!

I then did a little math here, if every year there are 10,000 freshman enter the industry, then as the rate you gave, they've got approximately 1000 people stay in the industry. It sounds not so many but seems to be able to make the industry run plus the old generation(←is it enough? I have no idea how many animators are needed to finish one title before the deadline.). But maybe my 10,000 assumption is too many? So actually how much of the ppl is in this industry? Is it expending or decreasing in these 3 years? It made me think that since even in Japan manga and anime are looked down upon by the *regular* mass, then the financial and mental pressure of making the decision will need huge courage which not so many people can have in general, even they are suckers. Here another question comes to me, Japanese think anime and manga as a second-rate media, is it a trend in recent 10 years? Or people think in this way all the time? If the later one is correct, how can they develop it to this size?

Overall, I mean if the industry treats its staff in such a bad way, logically it'll result in a distinct decreasing of the industry ppl. People are gonna flow to other industry if the situation goes on like today. You can expect when people who love anime and manga will be like "oh man, even it's my dream, but at least I need to be able to support myself for doing it, which won't be satisfied. So I really can't take it as my job."

It's hard to fathom what being an otaku is like in Japan from they eyes of an American. It practically means SPENDING ALL OF YOUR MONEY THAT YOU EARN on otaku related items. THAT MEANS, EVEN DEFYING FOOD AND BASIC NECESSITIES TO LIVE. If it's between saving 4,000 yen for food versus buying a 4,000 yen figurine, they choose the figurine over the food. It's that kind of mentality that the companies know and rely on to suck money out of the otakus' wallets, as they know they are suckers for limited edition goods and items. Do any American otakus even come to that level of consumption? How about buying three items of the EXACT same thing; one to show, one to store, and one as a backup? Many people also buy several copies of the exact same ero-game at different stores just so they can get the store-only limited edition items (I had a post about this somewhere, but unfortunately it seemed to have gotten lost in the crash earlier this year).

If an ero-game costs 8,800 yen, and if ten people buy three each of the exactly same thing...bam! The company just got a total of 264,000 yen (10 losers buying x 3 copies each x 8,800 yen per each copy = 264,000 yen).

(I passed out...@_@) Tho I've ever heard of some crazy dudes buy not only one copy, I never expect them do it so often and at the price of giving up the basic needs. Geez, I'm pretty sure that I'm not an otaku and will never be.

The unit cost of producing an ero-game? Around ~5,000 yen per copy.
Cost of those ten copies: (5,000 yen x 10 losers buying x 3 copies each = 150,000 yen)

Profit to ero-game softhouse: 264,000 yen - 150,000 yen = 114,000 yen.

So, TYPE-MOON seemed to have sold over 100,000 copies of "Fate stay/night" within the first month.
If everyone bought it at 8,800 yen (which most people don't anyway as the in-store sales price is usually less than that)
100,000 x 8,800 yen = 880,000,000 yen
100,000 x 5,000 yen = 500,000,000 yen
profit to TYPE-MOON = 380,000,000 yen (approx. USD $3.2 million)

THAT'S NOT INCLUDING ALL THE ROYALTY BENEFITS TYPE-MOON RECEIVES COMING FROM FIGURINES, CD SALES, ANIME DVD SALES, TRADING CARDS, AND OTHER MERCHANDISE

See how shoving down moe~ down to otakus throats can make the otaku business a sizeable industry big enough to create an economical impact?

well, the cost is lower than I imagine to make a game. But yeah, ero-game is not so much technically challenged, the point is to have good illustrators to draw out cute and sexy girls' CG I suppose. As far as my very little knowledge about galgame, they are mostly AVG game, in which players have dialogues and options to choose from so that they are led to different ending. I guess the selling point is the echii scenes in the process and the CGs and maybe moe voices also. It maybe fresh and interesting and... erotic for the first 10 galgames, but...IMO, it definitely becomes boring after a player has gone through the same type for so many times. You know, they are all the same. Even the girls are becoming stereotyped. No fun any more. So it's really a myth for me that why the Japanese otakus can be so obssessed with galgames for a long time. (maybe because I'm not a game person at all, it's harder for me to understand that. (;￣ー￣)...ン)

So, I guess the defining factor is that: Most American otakus (let alone normal people) will not buy "just a game" that is worth approx $90, whereas, otakus in Japan would blindly will (normal Japanese would think they are crazy as well).

yeah...that's a myth. Why can they be blindly bound to it? It could be an interesting research essay to analyse their "blindness on galgames" psychologically.

To sell merchandise. Producers don't make anime persay - it's the sponsors. The producer's job is to find sponsors. Sponsors will provide the money if they see that the anime can increase sales of their own items (deals like providing OP and ED songs so that they can sell their CDs, making figurines, etc.)

Basically, anime is just a tool. Profits do not come from DVD sales alone - profits are made by shoving related merchandise down into the suckers' (otakus') throats. It's also a way to increase sales of existing items as well. Remember "Suzumiya Haruhi"? It was popular enough to get its own anime, but once the anime aired, its light novel sales (which existed way before the anime) soared exponentially due to the influx of new fans. Kadokawa Shoten (one of the sponsors of the anime, and the publisher of the Haruhi light novels) was delightly pleased indeed, don't you think?

So you mean that anime is relatively easy to make money compare to other media like TV dorama and various shows, right?

Also, remember that in Japan - everyone does not own or use cars like people in the U.S. Most of our commutes are done by WALKING (GASP! It's true, people CAN WALK! No wonder people here are thinner than obese Americans! It's because we practically get daily exercise just by commuting!) and taking the train (which the company usually provides the commuting cost from your home to work). I said this in another thread - if you can get along without a car, just imagine how much extra cash you would have in your hands if you didn't have to pay for car loans, insurance, gasoline, maintenance costs, registration, etc? An extra USD$200~USD$500 per month can make a huge difference in your spending habits, don't you think?

Lol. I gasped. XD
So how much time do Japanese spend on walking in general? If it's more than 45 minutes, won't you think it's not very effecient way to go to somewhere? And also, if the states is as small as Japan, I'd be very happy to have no car so that I can save money on buying more manga and anime.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by hiroober

is it a trend in recent 10 years? Or people think in this way all the time? If the later one is correct, how can they develop it to this size?

Search my name in this board, and you'll find lots of interesting stuff. You can start here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=17501

Overall, I mean if the industry treats its staff in such a bad way, logically it'll result in a distinct decreasing of the industry ppl. People are gonna flow to other industry if the situation goes on like today. You can expect when people who love anime and manga will be like "oh man, even it's my dream, but at least I need to be able to support myself for doing it, which won't be satisfied. So I really can't take it as my job."

Blame the master who created this system - Tezuka Osamu himself. Basically, its a way to keep costs cheaper (since back then there was no way Japan could make a "cartoon" on the scale of Disney without cutting back on something) and "weeding out the wimps" who can't handle the pressure.

Sure, it may have worked forty years ago, but the wages hasn't changed in the past twenty years or so. Twenty years ago, it was somewhat enough to barely survive. Now, the living costs and inflation has come to a point where you can't survive on those wages. So what do they do? Outsource them to Korea and China.

You know, they are all the same. Even the girls are becoming stereotyped. No fun any more.

Once in a while, a great game comes up that sends shock throughout the ero-game world. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a big hit since "Fate stay/night." (not counting "Higurashi" which is a doujin game).

yeah...that's a myth. Why can they be blindly bound to it? It could be an interesting research essay to analyse their "blindness on galgames" psychologically.

The moe~ drive is the cause of conspicious consumption. If otakus can go (;´Д`)ﾊｧﾊｧ over a minor character from the ero-game "Triangle Hearts," and if her fanbase can create a spin-off anime for three seasons in her name, then it's a big enough factor which can't be overlooked.

[Kaoru Chujo]

kj1980's point about not needing a car meaning you have more disposable income made sense. Is it possible that the "bonus" system has an effect, too? If you work for a reasonable size company or a government, I understand you get a bonus at the end of the year that can range from close to zero to about half what you get through the rest of the year. That lump sum in the bank would make a big difference to how I spent, I think. Not that I expect most otaku have that good a job.

I'd also like to understand more about "normal" Japanese people's attitude toward anime and manga. I think anime are definitely seen as for kids (and perverts?), at least until Nana (maybe?). But there are manga-type magazines of all kinds. Are manga more socially acceptable than anime?

And does the hierarchy of social aceptability go: serious novel > popular novel/SF/romance > light novel > manga? I think it's cool that when you buy a novel at a Japanese bookstore, you get a paper cover that prevents other people from knowing what you're reading.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I'd also like to understand more about "normal" Japanese people's attitude toward anime and manga. I think anime are definitely seen as for kids (and perverts?), at least until Nana (maybe?). But there are manga-type magazines of all kinds. Are manga more socially acceptable than anime?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=17501

And does the hierarchy of social aceptability go: serious novel > popular novel/SF/romance > light novel > manga? I think it's cool that when you buy a novel at a Japanese bookstore, you get a paper cover that prevents other people from knowing what you're reading.

Ah, you still have a long way to go, buddy.

Yes, Japanese bookstores provides you book covers...except most otakus don't buy their books at normal bookstores. We go buy them at anime-specialty bookstores like K-Books, Animate, Melon Books and the like. There are many reasons for that, but one thing we don't want is bookcovers that hinder us from figuring out what the title is. Instead, these places provide see-thru book covers. Owning several hundred volumes of light novels and mangas all with brownish book covers on your bookshelf can get quite irritating when you're trying to find the book you're looking for. But if the book cover was see-thru....hey, now you're talking!

Normal person's mind set: "Book covers to hide what you are reading"
Otaku mind set: "Clear book covers rules because I can figure out what the titles are without taking off the cover!"

[ImClueless]

Originally Posted by kj1980

If it's between saving 4,000 yen for food versus buying a 4,000 yen figurine, they choose the figurine over the food.

Well at least there are no fat otakus then......

Well from what you said otakuism sounds pretty much like a drug addiction. Are there such things as otaku rehabilitation facilities in Japan? Do families stage interventions to save ones who have fallen to otakudom?