AnimeSuki Forums

Xargs · 2004-07-20, 20:48

I have a Japanese friend who says the above is generally considered childish among the Japanese public.

On the other hand, I've read numerous books and articles about the massive popularity of anime and manga in Japan from children to middle age people. Everything from telephone book thick manga to Japanese salarymen reading violent ero-manga on the subway.

I've been to Japan and seen the massive shelves of anime and manga. Although, I've never seen ero-manga being read on a subway.

This leaves me a bit confused. If such things had such a large stigma attached to them, then they wouldn't be nearly as popular.

Maybe some of the Japanese people who frequent the forum can shed some light on this.

Lord Raiden · 2004-07-20, 21:05

Actually, it IS very popular over there. Problem is, your friend might find it childish simply because there's so many people who go and become excessive and obsesive over it. Look at the "otaku" over there or all the crazy perverts with the loli dols. That's probubly what's made him thing it's a childish thing. In america, people who watch anime are generally thought of as geeks and nerds, or "american otaku" to steal a phrase from the japanese. Now in my book Otaku isn't all that bad a thing, but then again I see it from a different perspective. I can totally understand where they'd be coming from with that though, especially since we've got people over here who are much the same way.

But overall I'd say that Anime is generally accepted if not wildly accepted over there. Heck, have you seen pics of all the manga and anime cons as well as all the cosplay parties? If anime is childish, why are those always so packed?

hunterx · 2004-07-20, 21:17

To me it depends on which kind of anime you watch. If it is schoolkids or stuff like maburaho, midori no hibi etc yea it is sort of childish. Nobody is going to call GITS childish

babbito2k · 2004-07-20, 22:02

Lots of Japanese people think of "Japanese culture" in terms of older forms - haiku and other poetry, Noh, calligraphy, the tea ceremony etc. Japan also boasts a fair amount of very talented novelists (both living and dead). Anime and manga have only recently been officially recognized as "Japanese culture."

America more or less invented "popular culture." Older cultural forms in America were European transplants, most of which have shriveled up and died. So Americans have a definite bias in favor of mass-media entertainment.

It's worth keeping these things in mind and perhaps getting to know a bit about these other forms. Many Japanese people, whether they live in Japan or have moved abroad, will likely be more comfortable talking about them.

SlugZilla · 2004-07-20, 22:20

There is a huge discrepancy between manga and anime.

In Japan, people of aged 20 to upper 30s can read a teenage manga like Shounen Jump or Magazine in public and it is normal. In addition there is manga catered for older people as well so manga is very much a commonplace in Japan as fastfood is to America, so it's not childish if you see anyone reading manga.

However if you are over 20 years old and watch anime on public TV that can be considered childish. But it is not childish to go watch a Hayao Miyazaki animation at the theater(and the list goes on). It's harder to draw the line for anime. Most Japanese only know the anime they grew up on as children, so they are very easy to assume that anime is made for children(due to ignorance).

And also I've never seen ero-manga being read on a subway either.

Xargs · 2004-07-20, 23:55

Wow! Thanks for the interesting thoughts.

Let me throw in a few additional things.

I originally created this thread because my friend told me this in an email:

Quote:

As I said in the beginning, if you told them that you are so interested in Japanese Anime, that is not the good way to make friends with Japanese, I think. Some may think you are childish, sorry to say this, but it is true.

Of course, this friend also stated that, "Manga causes crime because criminals imitate the manga." Being a sociologist, I quickly refuted that claim.

Quote:

Yes, while there may be high publicised crimes where the criminal claimed to imitate some media, if you look at the total statistics of crime, you will find these cases be less than 1% of total crime. To say that violent manga or anime causes crime is stupid, but it is equally stupid to say it has absolutely zero effect on society. Yes, there are effects but they are complicated and difficult to measure and may not show up till years after exposure.

And to think, she has a hand in defining laws in Japan.

On a more humorous note, the same friend:

Quote:

Her: ...but I thought Hello Kitty was made in the US.
Me: Um, no....
Her: Are you sure?
Me: Yes, I'm pretty sure. Hello Kitty defined a generation of Japanese people!

....and the Simpsons is imported pop culture from Russia....

I think I'll chalk this whole experience up to a friend whose lived in the "pop culture closet" all her life.

kj1980 · 2004-07-21, 02:22

I've already explained this thing in detail in another thread...but I'll re-write a touched up version of it here.

Yes, I am Japanese. Yes, I am an otaku.

There, that will instantly make me shunned from my co-workers, women, and society if I go out into the street and proclaim that.

Why? Where did this stigmatism for being an otaku come from?

There are numerous of reasons, but most Japanese will have one distinctive and infamous crime that makes them equate "otaku=psycho" in the heads.
__________________________________________________ _____________
The Tsutomu Miyazaki Case (also known as "The Saitama Prefecture Multiple Child Rape-Murder Case)

Between August 1988 and June 1989, four pre-school school girls became missing in Saitama Prefecture. Here is an overall review of what happened:

August 22, 1988 - Imano Mari (age four) was kidnapped, raped and murdered. Video taped Mari-chan's corpse and vagina. (video tape found at his house as evidence). Dumped and buried body in forest.

October 3, 1988 - Miyazaki asked Yoshizawa Masami (age seven) for directions, and promised her to take her somewhere "nice." Masami started crying inside Miyazaki's car, and Miyazaki: "I had no choice but to strangle her to shut up." After she took her final breath, Miyazaki: "I took her clothes off and put my finger into her vagina, but her body moved even though she was dead...I became scared I left the body in the forest"

December 9, 1988 - Namba Erika (age four) kidnapped, raped, and strangled. Dumped body in a forest.

December 15, 1988 - Erika's body found in forest by police investigators.

January, 1989 - Miyazaki returns to Mari-chan's burial site, took her skull back home, burned it to ashes at his home incinerator. Sends Mari-chan's ashes to her parents in a cardboard box with a letter enclosed with newspaper letters of 「真理・遺骨・焼・証明・鑑定」 (Mari, Ikotsu, Yaki, Shoumei, Kantei / Mari, Body Ashes, Burned, Evidence, Proof)

February 10, 1989 - Miyazaki sends additional letters to Asahi Daily News and Mari-chan's distressed families (once again with newspaper letters) explaining in vivid detail how he killed and raped little Mari-chan.

March 11, 1989 - Miyazaki learns of Mari-chan's funeral. Sends another letter to the Imano family and Asahi Daily News "I deeply appreciate the proper burial that you were able to provide her that I could not." Public anger explodes.

June 6, 1989 - Nomoto Ayako (age five) kidnapped. Miyazaki: "after she kept on repeatedly inquiring about my deformed hands, I became frustrated and killed her." Body (minus legs and arms) dumped in forest. Video taped himself masturbating (once again, video tape found at his home later) with Ayako's hands, then ate them.

July 23, 1989 - As Miyazaki was video taping a crying naked girl (age six) in a forest, he was apprehended by the girl's father. He was taken to the police station for attempted kidnapping and rape. Miyazaki confesses to his crimes.

Police searches Miyazaki's house:
over 6000 video tapes of anime, lolita videos, and horror films
numerous photos and video tapes of himself committing the crimes (used as evidence)

Miyazaki Tsutomu - Sentenced to death in 2002. Currently appealing to the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, he had published an autobiography with proceeds going to the victims' families. Victims' families refuse such an outrage (duh).
__________________________________________________ ______________

The above mentioned case was so notorious and shocking to the Japanese public that it set an image that loners and otakus are all fucked up in their minds.

Yes, the act that Miyazaki Tsutomu did was indeed a heinous and atrocious crime...and I support his death as do the majority of the Japanese populace. However, is it fair to say:

"Otakus cannot get real girls, so they settle for 2-dimensional girls and go after little innocent children"

"All otakus are loners because they cannot fit in with society"

because of one otaku who couldn't distinguish the obvious between right and wrong? No. He was a fucked up loser who just happened to be an otaku. What if he happened to be a biker? Does that mean all bikers are fucked up? Or, the most possible scenario which is the scariest of all - what if he was a socially amiable neighbor who would go out and drink beer with his neighbors?

Unfortunately, people like to label each other as being "with us, our against us." Hence, thanks to Miyazaki Tsutomu they associate it as "Miyazaki was an otaku, hence all otakus are fucked up." Congratulations Mr. Miyazaki Tsutomu, you are hated even more since us Japanese otakus despise you because you are the reason that caused us to be branded as "fucked up losers."

So going back to the question with this aside..."how do Japanese view people who watch anime/manga?"

As your Japanese friend has mentioned, yes we are considered to be "childish losers." Why? Because of the above mentioned incident.

And of course, Japan is an image conscious society. As I said earlier, the Japanese philosophy of social harmony (or, "wa") is basically an euphemism in saying "you are with us, or you are not - and if you are not, tough luck." Hence, I do not openly say that I am an otaku nor avidly remark that I love to watch anime and play ero-games - for the risk of being cold-shouldered by my co-workers and that it may infringe on my advancement...or even worse, being laid off for any reason the corporation may decide to utilize upon me just to get rid of "a psycho that disrupts the harmony of our company." Perhaps there are several other co-workers in my company that share the same interest in anime and ero-games as I do...but since they don't go out and proclaim themselves as anime fans and neither do I, we will never know.

Manga is a different story. Manga has been with us since the pre-war days, and were popular back then as four-blocked comics on newspapers spreading propaganda. Later on, Haseda Machiko's "Sazae-san," and the Fujimi-sou members mangakas (Tezuka Osamu, Fujiko A/F Fujio, Akatsuka Fujio, Ishinomori Shoutaro, and Tsunoda Jiro) would revitalize the whole manga scene altogether. These people are considered to be national heroes by the populace, and gods by otakus. It is more than enough to say that without them, the multi-billion-yen publishing industry (mainly through manga sales) will not exist today. For otakus, without them, there wouldn't be the abundance of manga and anime that we see now.

Hence, stigmatism against manga are more relaxed. You see them all lined up on shelfs at bookstores all across Japan. Genres exists aimed at little kids (Koro-Koro Comics) to elementary (Sunday, Jump), middle school and high school (Magazine, Young Jump) to the adult (mangas about playing mahjong and golf, mangas about office life, mangas about dating and getting laid, mangas about how to keep a stable marriage, etc. etc...)

But so do anime - they offer variety. Unfortunately, not all mangas are turned into anime, and not all anime are shown on "normal time." Compared to the amount of published manga and anime that is shown on TV, manga beats anime handsdown...hundred fold. Compared to 60-70 different anime shows each week...there are over 600-700 different manga being published - from the obviously popular such as Naruto to extremely minor manga on how to taste wine. Manga is more easily accesible and offers a vast amount of variety that it includes genres that even men in their fifties and sixties can enjoy (like how to keep a good posture when playing golf). Manga has assimilated into Japanese literature as it is.

But then, there are exceptions to what society perceived which anime is acceptable to be watched even when you are an adult.

A. "Doraemon"
B. "Sazae-san"
C. anything by Miyazaki Hayao and Studio Ghibli

Reason being, both A & B are animes based on mangas done by national heroes and gods of the manga world - Hasegawa Machiko and Fujiko F. Fujio. C is because Miyazaki Hayao has established himself as a major internationally accepted (and makes very great films too!) director.

So anime is gaining popularity outside of Japan. Even the Japanese government proclaimed that "anime and manga are an important part of Japanese culture." So several Japanese anime films won kudos at Cannes and Venice. Still, the Japanese populaces' stance is "anime is for kids, if you still are watching anime as an adult - you are fucked up."

Once again, thank you Mr. Miyazaki Tsutomu. I hope you have an excrutiating death at the hanging.

Sugetsu · 2004-07-21, 03:53

That was beautifully written kj1980

I enjoyed your post thoroughly and it was very informative.

And my personal opinion here is that due to the fact that more than half of the world is influenced by the American culture, which clearly creates cartoons only for children, it is not strange that Japanese anime is also considered by Americans and other influenced cultures as childish animation. Hence, we get a certain company called DiC trying to edit and censure a certain anime called Saint Seiya in order to make it viewable for infants…
--------------
Keep up with those remarkable language skills that you have kj1980

DarkCntry · 2004-07-21, 05:35

This is the same stigma that has pushed a lot of things in the US about video game/movie violence....ignorance.

Personally if someone is so easily swayed by a form of entertainment to not be able to distinguish right from wrong, then they were not in their right mind before playing/watching that form of entertainment. People to this day still chalk the Columbine incident to video games...the truth of the matter is that the parents didn't involve themselves in their child's life.

I'm sorry, consider me old fashioned and my parents the same way, but while I was growing up I got punished by whippings and other forms of corporal punishment both at school and at home. I also played violent video games and watched equally violent movies/tv shows. But now that I am 24 I have never had any urge to go out and imitate what I saw because my parents instilled the differences between right and wrong in my life at a young age, they also played an active role in my growing up. They gave me freedoms such as playing these games or watching those movies, but they drew the line sometimes...of course back then I didn't understand it but looking back I can easily see why it was done.

It's because today's society has grown into these Dr. Phil "touchy-feely" parental society...if you punish a child with a phsyical punishment then you are abusing the child. If you deny a child something that means you are stiffling their growth into an adult...if you let your child play violent video games you're a failure as a parent. It's this track of thinking that has caused so many more problems than what I saw when I was growing up.

People are afraid to take active roles in their children's lives anymore so they take to escaping into blaming others for their problems. So they use the excuse to blame video games, music, and movies for their children's violent behavior. I've watched plenty of TV in my life, listened to a lot of music, but never once felt those things to influence my actions within society. Hell, back when I was growing up, we had more violence on TV than there is today, our cartoons were a lot more violent than anything shown to kids today. But I feel I'm pretty normal despite watching this.

But somehow kids today become violent because of playing Doom or watching an anime? Hell there was a time about 13 years ago when Dungeons and Dragons became such an evil tool because some guy went on a rampage after playing it. They neglected to mention the guy also had a mental disorder and that he was on heavy medications in which he didn't take. But hey, let's just put the blame elsewhere and use the perfect scapegoat.

As you can see it's things like this that make it hard for people to enjoy things these days...anime, video games, music...all of these are always being scruitinized because of their 'effect' on youth today, just because parents aren't doing what they should be doing; being parents.

Blaine · 2004-07-21, 08:05

this is a very interesting topic

DukeGaladrien · 2004-07-21, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

This is the same stigma that has pushed a lot of things in the US about video game/movie violence....ignorance.

Personally if someone is so easily swayed by a form of entertainment to not be able to distinguish right from wrong, then they were not in their right mind before playing/watching that form of entertainment. People to this day still chalk the Columbine incident to video games...the truth of the matter is that the parents didn't involve themselves in their child's life.

I'm sorry, consider me old fashioned and my parents the same way, but while I was growing up I got punished by whippings and other forms of corporal punishment both at school and at home. I also played violent video games and watched equally violent movies/tv shows. But now that I am 24 I have never had any urge to go out and imitate what I saw because my parents instilled the differences between right and wrong in my life at a young age, they also played an active role in my growing up. They gave me freedoms such as playing these games or watching those movies, but they drew the line sometimes...of course back then I didn't understand it but looking back I can easily see why it was done.

It's because today's society has grown into these Dr. Phil "touchy-feely" parental society...if you punish a child with a phsyical punishment then you are abusing the child. If you deny a child something that means you are stiffling their growth into an adult...if you let your child play violent video games you're a failure as a parent. It's this track of thinking that has caused so many more problems than what I saw when I was growing up.

People are afraid to take active roles in their children's lives anymore so they take to escaping into blaming others for their problems. So they use the excuse to blame video games, music, and movies for their children's violent behavior. I've watched plenty of TV in my life, listened to a lot of music, but never once felt those things to influence my actions within society. Hell, back when I was growing up, we had more violence on TV than there is today, our cartoons were a lot more violent than anything shown to kids today. But I feel I'm pretty normal despite watching this.

But somehow kids today become violent because of playing Doom or watching an anime? Hell there was a time about 13 years ago when Dungeons and Dragons became such an evil tool because some guy went on a rampage after playing it. They neglected to mention the guy also had a mental disorder and that he was on heavy medications in which he didn't take. But hey, let's just put the blame elsewhere and use the perfect scapegoat.

As you can see it's things like this that make it hard for people to enjoy things these days...anime, video games, music...all of these are always being scruitinized because of their 'effect' on youth today, just because parents aren't doing what they should be doing; being parents.

Beautifully said. Hell I know growing up I always had this huge bias against Dungeons & Dragons because of that incident you mentioned. Hell I didn't even really know what D&D was back then, but I was still against it. Then later you come to learn about it and for any logical thinking person it's obvious it can't be the cause of everything that is evil in the world.

I know everytime some kid goes and does something completely stupid and utterly horrendous it's because he plays Counter-strike or something of the like. Hell the biggest influence is the media and their portraying of the incidents more than anything else.

Ending · 2004-07-21, 13:46

Quote:

this is a very informative topic

Yes, with some people quoting pages long texts and then adding three lines of their own, you have to remember at least something.

Entropy · 2004-07-21, 14:12

You know,in some forums I go into,doing that would get you banned,or at least chastised.

Please people,just use "snip"!

Other than that,KJ1980's little essay gives us a very rare perspective of "Otakuism" in Japan,kudos to him,as well as Dark

.

Sakaki · 2004-07-21, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

This is the same stigma that has pushed a lot of things in the US about video game/movie violence....ignorance.

Hell, back when I was growing up, we had more violence on TV than there is today, our cartoons were a lot more violent than anything shown to kids today. But I feel I'm pretty normal despite watching this.

That is like how the Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner/Cyote cartoons are now censored on TV, and they came out of the 40's and I watched them as a kid uncensored on TV in the 60's.

Of course in the 40's they were not really made for kids, they were made for adults and ran in theaters as a short along with the main atraction movie. It was really only after Disney came along that "animated = kiddy shows" really came into play.

Of course the Bugs Bunnys you will never see again are the ones made durring WWII.

Pepperidge · 2004-07-21, 15:14

I don't know much about demography in Japan, but the question of "is anime for kids" seems to come up a lot, and I've noticed a few trends.

What makes this argument difficult is that people can't agree on how to define a "child" and and "adult". When Japanese people say that anime is "for children" I take it to mean that anime is "for people under the age of twenty". However, when a lot of anime fans hear this assessment, they generally take it to mean something more along the lines of "anime is for people under the age of twelve". They often try to defend anime as an accepted form of entertainment for adults, but in reality they're trying to defend it as something that teenagers and young adults accept, which I think they do to a much higher degree than people who are "officially" adults in Japan.

This is mostly rooted in the way American demographics seem to be set up. In the west, television tends to target either people aged 6-11 or 18-34. Everything that's outside or inbetween is just sort of "lost". North American productions are almost always geared towards one of those two demographics, so when something is said to be "for children", the general presumption is that it is something for people under the age of 12.

However, the scope seems to be a little wider in Japan. Now I will admit that I'm making a few assumptions here, but I would imagine that shows like Fullmetal Alchemist and Gundam SEED are more popular with people aged 10-14 or 15 than they are with people under the age of 10. And while I'm sure the audience wanes out a bit as your viewers get older, I'm sure those shows have more older teen viewers than the average North American production does. Not to mention that Prince of Tennis would not be half as popular as it is were it not for those few teenage girls who find the time to watch TV.

Despite the fact that it airs at 2:30 in the morning, I'm quite sure that most of the people who watch Samurai Champloo are under 20. Of course, airing in "otaku hours", the show immediately lacks the popularity that a show airing in prime time would have, but as mature as many shows that do air in late night "otaku hours" are, most of them are oriented more towards older teen viewers than people over the age of 20.

This is why anime on Adult Swim isn't performing quite as well as it should be. CN can only air many of their anime acquisitions uncut if they're a part of a block specifically targeted at the 18-34 demographic. Despite the fact that Detective Conan and Inuyasha probably get much, much, MUCH higher ratings from the 9-14 and 12-17 demographics, they're ratings numbers are pretty average because only the limited adult audience is calculated. And I'm quite sure that most of the "adults" who watch anime on Adult Swim are 25 at the MOST.

There is the occassional exception apart from Saeze-san, of course. Part of the reason that Evangelion was the phenomenon that it was was because virtually everyone was watching the show: even adults. I recall reading something from one of the seiyuus a few years back saying that they would occassionally hear salarymen discussing the show. It probably wasn't that common, but it can happen. I think it was a similar case with Cowboy Bebop, which is why it was moved to a later timeslot on WOWOW, but I'm not quite as sure.

With that taken into consideration... I would say that anime is definitely something for young people. But then, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of things in this world are. I think it holds true for most parts of the world that people over the age of 20 don't really accept animation; however, I don't think the problem tends to be with anime itself, but more with the fact that most people over the age of 20 don't really accept art.

Arwyn · 2004-07-21, 16:15

I think that the popular mindset is that anime is "childish" and that preconception is universal. I had a similar discussion with my friend John several months ago on the same subject. He and I have talked about shows and manga before, and he pointed me in the direction of a few of them. Much like kj was saying, it isnt something that most adults over there would admit to though. He is about to get married, and he didnt say anything about it to his fiance until he found out she is addicted to high school romance manga.

I watch anime, and read manga. I dont consider myself an otaku by any stretch of the imagination, but at the same time, I'm not about to admit to most folks that I read and watch this stuff. I also started looking into and playing some ero-games, and I would DAMN sure never mention that fact to my co-workers or casual friends.Here in the states, that would just get you flagged as weird. Over in Japan, getting labled as an otaku can have some pretty serious consequences. John used to teach english at a cram school part time, and according to him, one of the other teachers there was only teaching at the cram school after he lost his job at a private school after being labled an otaku. John's opinion was that this gentleman was a pretty normal guy, but apparently because of his hobbies, this guy got labled as an otaku, and the private school he worked at decided that wasnt appropriate for an educator at their school, so he was dismissed. Kinda scary.

Thanks to kj though, I had heard there was a "otaku case", but I didnt know the details of it. I agree with you though, the sick bastard defiantly needs to swing.

OutPhase · 2004-07-21, 20:14

Because of this topic created, I just suddenly had to ask myself:

Who the fuck started that anime and manga are for children/pedophiles?

It pisses me off for people saying anime is only for children then giving the, "Children watch Pokemon and Sailor Moon." It may surprise the people who say this, but the truth is there's over 3000 anime. You can't judge them all because of two anime meant for children. The only way they could be right if it's suitable of children to watch anime here that wouldn't even be allowed on TV for murder, rape, nudity, language, and adult content. Unless this is an everyday thing for 6 year olds, I don't see their freaking point.

There are also people who think manga is just made up of pornography. 99.99999999999999% of these people don't even read manga, so what the fuck are they talking about? Unless you actually know what you're talking about just shut the hell up. Sorry dipshits, but panties does not qualify as nudity! Unless there are breasts/vaginas/penis' involved it's not nudity. Here are 3 examples of manga with no major nudity: Azumanga Daioh, Cardcaptor Sakura, Naruto

After the asses realize that person's right they try to say it's only for children. My reaction: "Excuse me? Excuse me??? Didn't just say that manga is porn, or are you a damn hyprocrite who doesn't quit? Unless you know what you're saying, shut up."

Some people just can't deal with the fact that they're wrong and by trying to be right they look like dumbasses.

Melazoma · 2004-07-21, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razer_2mb

Some people just can't deal with the fact that they're wrong and by trying to be right they look like dumbasses.

Statement of fact: one of the people you just described in the above sentence happens to go by the name of Bill O'Reilly.

Archuka · 2004-07-21, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razer_2mb

Because of this topic created, I just suddenly had to ask myself:

Who the fuck started that anime and manga are for children/pedophiles?

It pisses me off for people saying anime is only for children then giving the, "Children watch Pokemon and Sailor Moon." It may surprise the people who say this, but the truth is there's over 3000 anime. You can't judge them all because of two anime meant for children. The only way they could be right if it's suitable of children to watch anime here that wouldn't even be allowed on TV for murder, rape, nudity, language, and adult content. Unless this is an everyday thing for 6 year olds, I don't see their freaking point.

There are also people who think manga is just made up of pornography. 99.99999999999999% of these people don't even read manga, so what the fuck are they talking about? Unless you actually know what you're talking about just shut the hell up. Sorry dipshits, but panties does not qualify as nudity! Unless there are breasts/vaginas/penis' involved it's not nudity. Here are 3 examples of manga with no major nudity: Azumanga Daioh, Cardcaptor Sakura, Naruto

After the asses realize that person's right they try to say it's only for children. My reaction: "Excuse me? Excuse me??? Didn't just say that manga is porn, or are you a damn hyprocrite who doesn't quit? Unless you know what you're saying, shut up."

Some people just can't deal with the fact that they're wrong and by trying to be right they look like dumbasses.

I believe that comes from people who have only seen Western animation, which is mostly for children (a few exceptions, though). Because most people think "animation=for children", companies import only children's anime/manga and so we get "anime=for children". The rest find some anime porn site and think "anime=porn".

These thoughts spread fast because the majority of the world population obviously is incapable of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions. They just do "what everyone else does", even if they don't know a damn about the subject.

This is how I believe things are in most Western cultures.

Here in Finland for example, when a group started translating original DB manga into Finnish, shops put it together with other children's cartoons and when people with sticks up their asses read the manga, things started to happen and DB was taken off the shelves for good. People were writing how manga is bad with pedophiles and all kinds of unappropriate content. These fools just never realized that maybe DB wasn't meant for small children.

Entropy · 2004-07-21, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archuka

I believe that comes from people who have only seen Western animation, which is mostly for children (a few exceptions, though). Because most people think "animation=for children", companies import only children's anime/manga and so we get "anime=for children". The rest find some anime porn site and think "anime=porn".

These thoughts spread fast because the majority of the world population obviously is incapable of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions. They just do "what everyone else does", even if they don't know a damn about the subject.

This is how I believe things are in most Western cultures.

*ding ding ding ding ding*

2004-07-20, 20:48	Link #1
Xargs Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	Is watching anime or reading manga considered childish in Japan? I have a Japanese friend who says the above is generally considered childish among the Japanese public. On the other hand, I've read numerous books and articles about the massive popularity of anime and manga in Japan from children to middle age people. Everything from telephone book thick manga to Japanese salarymen reading violent ero-manga on the subway. I've been to Japan and seen the massive shelves of anime and manga. Although, I've never seen ero-manga being read on a subway. This leaves me a bit confused. If such things had such a large stigma attached to them, then they wouldn't be nearly as popular. Maybe some of the Japanese people who frequent the forum can shed some light on this.

2004-07-21, 03:53	Link #8
Sugetsu Kurumada's lost child Join Date: Nov 2003	That was beautifully written kj1980 I enjoyed your post thoroughly and it was very informative. And my personal opinion here is that due to the fact that more than half of the world is influenced by the American culture, which clearly creates cartoons only for children, it is not strange that Japanese anime is also considered by Americans and other influenced cultures as childish animation. Hence, we get a certain company called DiC trying to edit and censure a certain anime called Saint Seiya in order to make it viewable for infants… -------------- Keep up with those remarkable language skills that you have kj1980 __________________ "If you educate people, you cannot control them." ~Jacque Fresco Last edited by Sugetsu; 2004-07-21 at 15:47.

2004-07-21, 08:05	Link #10
Blaine Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: UK Age: 42	this is a very interesting topic __________________ My MAL Profile Last edited by Blaine; 2006-01-18 at 14:22.

2004-07-20, 21:05	Link #2
Lord Raiden Uber Coffee for da win! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Middle of insanity	Actually, it IS very popular over there. Problem is, your friend might find it childish simply because there's so many people who go and become excessive and obsesive over it. Look at the "otaku" over there or all the crazy perverts with the loli dols. That's probubly what's made him thing it's a childish thing. In america, people who watch anime are generally thought of as geeks and nerds, or "american otaku" to steal a phrase from the japanese. Now in my book Otaku isn't all that bad a thing, but then again I see it from a different perspective. I can totally understand where they'd be coming from with that though, especially since we've got people over here who are much the same way. But overall I'd say that Anime is generally accepted if not wildly accepted over there. Heck, have you seen pics of all the manga and anime cons as well as all the cosplay parties? If anime is childish, why are those always so packed?

2004-07-20, 21:17	Link #3
hunterx ore wa kanpeki da Join Date: Nov 2003	To me it depends on which kind of anime you watch. If it is schoolkids or stuff like maburaho, midori no hibi etc yea it is sort of childish. Nobody is going to call GITS childish

2004-07-20, 22:02	Link #4
babbito2k annoying white bat Join Date: Jan 2004	Lots of Japanese people think of "Japanese culture" in terms of older forms - haiku and other poetry, Noh, calligraphy, the tea ceremony etc. Japan also boasts a fair amount of very talented novelists (both living and dead). Anime and manga have only recently been officially recognized as "Japanese culture." America more or less invented "popular culture." Older cultural forms in America were European transplants, most of which have shriveled up and died. So Americans have a definite bias in favor of mass-media entertainment. It's worth keeping these things in mind and perhaps getting to know a bit about these other forms. Many Japanese people, whether they live in Japan or have moved abroad, will likely be more comfortable talking about them.

2004-07-20, 22:20	Link #5
SlugZilla woofles Join Date: Jan 2004 Age: 38	There is a huge discrepancy between manga and anime. In Japan, people of aged 20 to upper 30s can read a teenage manga like Shounen Jump or Magazine in public and it is normal. In addition there is manga catered for older people as well so manga is very much a commonplace in Japan as fastfood is to America, so it's not childish if you see anyone reading manga. However if you are over 20 years old and watch anime on public TV that can be considered childish. But it is not childish to go watch a Hayao Miyazaki animation at the theater(and the list goes on). It's harder to draw the line for anime. Most Japanese only know the anime they grew up on as children, so they are very easy to assume that anime is made for children(due to ignorance). And also I've never seen ero-manga being read on a subway either.

2004-07-21, 02:22	Link #7
kj1980 Gomen asobase desuwa! Join Date: Nov 2003 Age: 43	I've already explained this thing in detail in another thread...but I'll re-write a touched up version of it here. Yes, I am Japanese. Yes, I am an otaku. There, that will instantly make me shunned from my co-workers, women, and society if I go out into the street and proclaim that. Why? Where did this stigmatism for being an otaku come from? There are numerous of reasons, but most Japanese will have one distinctive and infamous crime that makes them equate "otaku=psycho" in the heads. __________________________________________________ _____________ The Tsutomu Miyazaki Case (also known as "The Saitama Prefecture Multiple Child Rape-Murder Case) Between August 1988 and June 1989, four pre-school school girls became missing in Saitama Prefecture. Here is an overall review of what happened: August 22, 1988 - Imano Mari (age four) was kidnapped, raped and murdered. Video taped Mari-chan's corpse and vagina. (video tape found at his house as evidence). Dumped and buried body in forest. October 3, 1988 - Miyazaki asked Yoshizawa Masami (age seven) for directions, and promised her to take her somewhere "nice." Masami started crying inside Miyazaki's car, and Miyazaki: "I had no choice but to strangle her to shut up." After she took her final breath, Miyazaki: "I took her clothes off and put my finger into her vagina, but her body moved even though she was dead...I became scared I left the body in the forest" December 9, 1988 - Namba Erika (age four) kidnapped, raped, and strangled. Dumped body in a forest. December 15, 1988 - Erika's body found in forest by police investigators. January, 1989 - Miyazaki returns to Mari-chan's burial site, took her skull back home, burned it to ashes at his home incinerator. Sends Mari-chan's ashes to her parents in a cardboard box with a letter enclosed with newspaper letters of 「真理・遺骨・焼・証明・鑑定」 (Mari, Ikotsu, Yaki, Shoumei, Kantei / Mari, Body Ashes, Burned, Evidence, Proof) February 10, 1989 - Miyazaki sends additional letters to Asahi Daily News and Mari-chan's distressed families (once again with newspaper letters) explaining in vivid detail how he killed and raped little Mari-chan. March 11, 1989 - Miyazaki learns of Mari-chan's funeral. Sends another letter to the Imano family and Asahi Daily News "I deeply appreciate the proper burial that you were able to provide her that I could not." Public anger explodes. June 6, 1989 - Nomoto Ayako (age five) kidnapped. Miyazaki: "after she kept on repeatedly inquiring about my deformed hands, I became frustrated and killed her." Body (minus legs and arms) dumped in forest. Video taped himself masturbating (once again, video tape found at his home later) with Ayako's hands, then ate them. July 23, 1989 - As Miyazaki was video taping a crying naked girl (age six) in a forest, he was apprehended by the girl's father. He was taken to the police station for attempted kidnapping and rape. Miyazaki confesses to his crimes. Police searches Miyazaki's house: over 6000 video tapes of anime, lolita videos, and horror films numerous photos and video tapes of himself committing the crimes (used as evidence) Miyazaki Tsutomu - Sentenced to death in 2002. Currently appealing to the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, he had published an autobiography with proceeds going to the victims' families. Victims' families refuse such an outrage (duh). __________________________________________________ ______________ The above mentioned case was so notorious and shocking to the Japanese public that it set an image that loners and otakus are all fucked up in their minds. Yes, the act that Miyazaki Tsutomu did was indeed a heinous and atrocious crime...and I support his death as do the majority of the Japanese populace. However, is it fair to say: "Otakus cannot get real girls, so they settle for 2-dimensional girls and go after little innocent children" "All otakus are loners because they cannot fit in with society" because of one otaku who couldn't distinguish the obvious between right and wrong? No. He was a fucked up loser who just happened to be an otaku. What if he happened to be a biker? Does that mean all bikers are fucked up? Or, the most possible scenario which is the scariest of all - what if he was a socially amiable neighbor who would go out and drink beer with his neighbors? Unfortunately, people like to label each other as being "with us, our against us." Hence, thanks to Miyazaki Tsutomu they associate it as "Miyazaki was an otaku, hence all otakus are fucked up." Congratulations Mr. Miyazaki Tsutomu, you are hated even more since us Japanese otakus despise you because you are the reason that caused us to be branded as "fucked up losers." So going back to the question with this aside..."how do Japanese view people who watch anime/manga?" As your Japanese friend has mentioned, yes we are considered to be "childish losers." Why? Because of the above mentioned incident. And of course, Japan is an image conscious society. As I said earlier, the Japanese philosophy of social harmony (or, "wa") is basically an euphemism in saying "you are with us, or you are not - and if you are not, tough luck." Hence, I do not openly say that I am an otaku nor avidly remark that I love to watch anime and play ero-games - for the risk of being cold-shouldered by my co-workers and that it may infringe on my advancement...or even worse, being laid off for any reason the corporation may decide to utilize upon me just to get rid of "a psycho that disrupts the harmony of our company." Perhaps there are several other co-workers in my company that share the same interest in anime and ero-games as I do...but since they don't go out and proclaim themselves as anime fans and neither do I, we will never know. Manga is a different story. Manga has been with us since the pre-war days, and were popular back then as four-blocked comics on newspapers spreading propaganda. Later on, Haseda Machiko's "Sazae-san," and the Fujimi-sou members mangakas (Tezuka Osamu, Fujiko A/F Fujio, Akatsuka Fujio, Ishinomori Shoutaro, and Tsunoda Jiro) would revitalize the whole manga scene altogether. These people are considered to be national heroes by the populace, and gods by otakus. It is more than enough to say that without them, the multi-billion-yen publishing industry (mainly through manga sales) will not exist today. For otakus, without them, there wouldn't be the abundance of manga and anime that we see now. Hence, stigmatism against manga are more relaxed. You see them all lined up on shelfs at bookstores all across Japan. Genres exists aimed at little kids (Koro-Koro Comics) to elementary (Sunday, Jump), middle school and high school (Magazine, Young Jump) to the adult (mangas about playing mahjong and golf, mangas about office life, mangas about dating and getting laid, mangas about how to keep a stable marriage, etc. etc...) But so do anime - they offer variety. Unfortunately, not all mangas are turned into anime, and not all anime are shown on "normal time." Compared to the amount of published manga and anime that is shown on TV, manga beats anime handsdown...hundred fold. Compared to 60-70 different anime shows each week...there are over 600-700 different manga being published - from the obviously popular such as Naruto to extremely minor manga on how to taste wine. Manga is more easily accesible and offers a vast amount of variety that it includes genres that even men in their fifties and sixties can enjoy (like how to keep a good posture when playing golf). Manga has assimilated into Japanese literature as it is. But then, there are exceptions to what society perceived which anime is acceptable to be watched even when you are an adult. A. "Doraemon" B. "Sazae-san" C. anything by Miyazaki Hayao and Studio Ghibli Reason being, both A & B are animes based on mangas done by national heroes and gods of the manga world - Hasegawa Machiko and Fujiko F. Fujio. C is because Miyazaki Hayao has established himself as a major internationally accepted (and makes very great films too!) director. So anime is gaining popularity outside of Japan. Even the Japanese government proclaimed that "anime and manga are an important part of Japanese culture." So several Japanese anime films won kudos at Cannes and Venice. Still, the Japanese populaces' stance is "anime is for kids, if you still are watching anime as an adult - you are fucked up." Once again, thank you Mr. Miyazaki Tsutomu. I hope you have an excrutiating death at the hanging.

2004-07-21, 05:35	Link #9
DarkCntry Blue Dawn Join Date: Jun 2004 Age: 44	This is the same stigma that has pushed a lot of things in the US about video game/movie violence....ignorance. Personally if someone is so easily swayed by a form of entertainment to not be able to distinguish right from wrong, then they were not in their right mind before playing/watching that form of entertainment. People to this day still chalk the Columbine incident to video games...the truth of the matter is that the parents didn't involve themselves in their child's life. I'm sorry, consider me old fashioned and my parents the same way, but while I was growing up I got punished by whippings and other forms of corporal punishment both at school and at home. I also played violent video games and watched equally violent movies/tv shows. But now that I am 24 I have never had any urge to go out and imitate what I saw because my parents instilled the differences between right and wrong in my life at a young age, they also played an active role in my growing up. They gave me freedoms such as playing these games or watching those movies, but they drew the line sometimes...of course back then I didn't understand it but looking back I can easily see why it was done. It's because today's society has grown into these Dr. Phil "touchy-feely" parental society...if you punish a child with a phsyical punishment then you are abusing the child. If you deny a child something that means you are stiffling their growth into an adult...if you let your child play violent video games you're a failure as a parent. It's this track of thinking that has caused so many more problems than what I saw when I was growing up. People are afraid to take active roles in their children's lives anymore so they take to escaping into blaming others for their problems. So they use the excuse to blame video games, music, and movies for their children's violent behavior. I've watched plenty of TV in my life, listened to a lot of music, but never once felt those things to influence my actions within society. Hell, back when I was growing up, we had more violence on TV than there is today, our cartoons were a lot more violent than anything shown to kids today. But I feel I'm pretty normal despite watching this. But somehow kids today become violent because of playing Doom or watching an anime? Hell there was a time about 13 years ago when Dungeons and Dragons became such an evil tool because some guy went on a rampage after playing it. They neglected to mention the guy also had a mental disorder and that he was on heavy medications in which he didn't take. But hey, let's just put the blame elsewhere and use the perfect scapegoat. As you can see it's things like this that make it hard for people to enjoy things these days...anime, video games, music...all of these are always being scruitinized because of their 'effect' on youth today, just because parents aren't doing what they should be doing; being parents.

2004-07-21, 14:12	Link #13
Entropy Flame warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Age: 36	You know,in some forums I go into,doing that would get you banned,or at least chastised. Please people,just use "snip"! Other than that,KJ1980's little essay gives us a very rare perspective of "Otakuism" in Japan,kudos to him,as well as Dark .

2004-07-21, 15:14	Link #15
Pepperidge Dissatisfied Canadian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: British Columbia, Canada Age: 37	I don't know much about demography in Japan, but the question of "is anime for kids" seems to come up a lot, and I've noticed a few trends. What makes this argument difficult is that people can't agree on how to define a "child" and and "adult". When Japanese people say that anime is "for children" I take it to mean that anime is "for people under the age of twenty". However, when a lot of anime fans hear this assessment, they generally take it to mean something more along the lines of "anime is for people under the age of twelve". They often try to defend anime as an accepted form of entertainment for adults, but in reality they're trying to defend it as something that teenagers and young adults accept, which I think they do to a much higher degree than people who are "officially" adults in Japan. This is mostly rooted in the way American demographics seem to be set up. In the west, television tends to target either people aged 6-11 or 18-34. Everything that's outside or inbetween is just sort of "lost". North American productions are almost always geared towards one of those two demographics, so when something is said to be "for children", the general presumption is that it is something for people under the age of 12. However, the scope seems to be a little wider in Japan. Now I will admit that I'm making a few assumptions here, but I would imagine that shows like Fullmetal Alchemist and Gundam SEED are more popular with people aged 10-14 or 15 than they are with people under the age of 10. And while I'm sure the audience wanes out a bit as your viewers get older, I'm sure those shows have more older teen viewers than the average North American production does. Not to mention that Prince of Tennis would not be half as popular as it is were it not for those few teenage girls who find the time to watch TV. Despite the fact that it airs at 2:30 in the morning, I'm quite sure that most of the people who watch Samurai Champloo are under 20. Of course, airing in "otaku hours", the show immediately lacks the popularity that a show airing in prime time would have, but as mature as many shows that do air in late night "otaku hours" are, most of them are oriented more towards older teen viewers than people over the age of 20. This is why anime on Adult Swim isn't performing quite as well as it should be. CN can only air many of their anime acquisitions uncut if they're a part of a block specifically targeted at the 18-34 demographic. Despite the fact that Detective Conan and Inuyasha probably get much, much, MUCH higher ratings from the 9-14 and 12-17 demographics, they're ratings numbers are pretty average because only the limited adult audience is calculated. And I'm quite sure that most of the "adults" who watch anime on Adult Swim are 25 at the MOST. There is the occassional exception apart from Saeze-san, of course. Part of the reason that Evangelion was the phenomenon that it was was because virtually everyone was watching the show: even adults. I recall reading something from one of the seiyuus a few years back saying that they would occassionally hear salarymen discussing the show. It probably wasn't that common, but it can happen. I think it was a similar case with Cowboy Bebop, which is why it was moved to a later timeslot on WOWOW, but I'm not quite as sure. With that taken into consideration... I would say that anime is definitely something for young people. But then, you also have to keep in mind that a lot of things in this world are. I think it holds true for most parts of the world that people over the age of 20 don't really accept animation; however, I don't think the problem tends to be with anime itself, but more with the fact that most people over the age of 20 don't really accept art.

2004-07-21, 16:15	Link #16
Arwyn Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: God forsaken middle of nowhere, Texas	I think that the popular mindset is that anime is "childish" and that preconception is universal. I had a similar discussion with my friend John several months ago on the same subject. He and I have talked about shows and manga before, and he pointed me in the direction of a few of them. Much like kj was saying, it isnt something that most adults over there would admit to though. He is about to get married, and he didnt say anything about it to his fiance until he found out she is addicted to high school romance manga. I watch anime, and read manga. I dont consider myself an otaku by any stretch of the imagination, but at the same time, I'm not about to admit to most folks that I read and watch this stuff. I also started looking into and playing some ero-games, and I would DAMN sure never mention that fact to my co-workers or casual friends.Here in the states, that would just get you flagged as weird. Over in Japan, getting labled as an otaku can have some pretty serious consequences. John used to teach english at a cram school part time, and according to him, one of the other teachers there was only teaching at the cram school after he lost his job at a private school after being labled an otaku. John's opinion was that this gentleman was a pretty normal guy, but apparently because of his hobbies, this guy got labled as an otaku, and the private school he worked at decided that wasnt appropriate for an educator at their school, so he was dismissed. Kinda scary. Thanks to kj though, I had heard there was a "otaku case", but I didnt know the details of it. I agree with you though, the sick bastard defiantly needs to swing.

2004-07-21, 20:14	Link #17
OutPhase Lord Chairman God King Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Do you really give a damn?	Because of this topic created, I just suddenly had to ask myself: Who the fuck started that anime and manga are for children/pedophiles? It pisses me off for people saying anime is only for children then giving the, "Children watch Pokemon and Sailor Moon." It may surprise the people who say this, but the truth is there's over 3000 anime. You can't judge them all because of two anime meant for children. The only way they could be right if it's suitable of children to watch anime here that wouldn't even be allowed on TV for murder, rape, nudity, language, and adult content. Unless this is an everyday thing for 6 year olds, I don't see their freaking point. There are also people who think manga is just made up of pornography. 99.99999999999999% of these people don't even read manga, so what the fuck are they talking about? Unless you actually know what you're talking about just shut the hell up. Sorry dipshits, but panties does not qualify as nudity! Unless there are breasts/vaginas/penis' involved it's not nudity. Here are 3 examples of manga with no major nudity: Azumanga Daioh, Cardcaptor Sakura, Naruto After the asses realize that person's right they try to say it's only for children. My reaction: "Excuse me? Excuse me??? Didn't just say that manga is porn, or are you a damn hyprocrite who doesn't quit? Unless you know what you're saying, shut up." Some people just can't deal with the fact that they're wrong and by trying to be right they look like dumbasses.