Sword Art Online - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Yes, that's the expectation of society which many people accept without questioning because they were conditioned so. That's what sexism is.



Funnily enough, many women would slap you rather than sleep with you if you tried it. I find that those women are generally more interesting than the other type.

Lol? It's not like you go and say, hey, you're the woman, you cook! I fight, I get the food, and you cook!
Nope, definately not like that.
You are just trying to say that women do what men want them to do, which is not true.
My father cooks a lot too, he only cooks if he isn't tired enough tho, he has a pretty busy job.
Women are not like toys who will do everything you ask for, just because they love you, if you think I am expressing them that way, you're wrong.
What I am saying is, women LIKE cooking, THEY DO, you can go and ask your mum, sister, friends, what ever, most of them will surely say they do enjoy cooking. Women also enjoy tv shows like " Dr. Oz " or w.e.
If you asked my mum, and 80% of my girl-friends, you would get the same answer: They do enjoy cooking.
I don't get why you think they don't like it.
Compare the number of girls playing games, to the number of guys, and tell me girls like playing games. Please, do it.
Girls also enjoy swimming, playing voleyball, etc, but my point is, women do enjoy cooking. Now I won't say it is because they want to get praised by their boyfriend/husband or if they do actually cook because they like it, it doesn't matter anyways.
Edit: I had about 13 girls in my class once, they found out I was playing an MMORPG game and I was in the top30, ALL OF THEM came to me and basicly said: " WTF Man get a life, you're just a nerd retard. Stop playing games! It sucks " - And this lasted for about 1 year, I had classes with them for 3 years in a row.
Some women do enjoy playing, but most of them enjoy cooking a lot more, I never said ALL OF THEM enjoy cooking, nor NONE OF THEM enjoy playing...you're getting me wrong.

[Clarste]

Men also like cooking. Women also like video games.

[Xaturas]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Now that I think about it, wonder if Klein still has that revival item on him. Considering how close Kirito came to being done for that would have been nice to have handy .

Imo it should be around, for plot reasons, its just a too good device to leave it alone.
Especially when I think that at the end before they finish this game at floor 99-100 someone will die as the ultimate sacrifice. We've seen it so many times, now point is who will die Kirito, Asuna, Klein or furinlalalalala legion guys.

[M1sFyr3]

Why did this thread get so deep into discussing the sexes, their differences, and whatnought

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Men also like cooking. Women also like video games.

I think I already mentioned that men do cook, and that women do play games...I'm talking about the great majority...
I myself, cook sometimes, and so does my brother and father. I think you get the point.

M1sFyr3 - Probably because everytime Kirito rescues Asuna, or Asuna shows her weaknesses to Kirito, they think the producers are being sexist. They aren't. Women trust men to save and protect them, am I right or wrong? I don't think a woman will enjoy dying just because a man thought " OMG IF I SAVE HER SHE'LL BE THINKING I'M SEXIST " either that, or people think women can take everything upon them themselves, they're probably some war machine robots who will literally kick some guy's azz for sure, right? Because they are as strong as man by nature / sarcasm.
Now I haven't said this yet but, women need men to protect them, so they can feel safe, but men also needs the women's words. Men are strong physically but not mentally. We aren't war machines we need women to be by our side, because their words make us happy, and gives us also some confidence.
I am guessing that Kirito will nearly die once again, or a friend of his will die right in front of him, and he will be scared, thinking he no longer has the power to help anyone or to fight anything, and Asuna will be there to help him. I'm sure of it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Karakuri

I don't really think this is a sexist show, because women normally make so the man protects them, because they want to feel secure, and most of the times, women aren't happy just about playing a game, or swinging swords or other toys, while men are. Women enjoy more cooking ( My mum enjoys it quite a lot, and many of the girls I know also enjoy cooking, only a few didn't enjoy doing it ) than playing some kind of game...

...and so on (and on and on).

I think you're missing the point that a few of us are trying to make about this issue. I think pretty much everyone understands perfectly well all the gender stereotypes that you keep trying to explain, and I think most of us can probably understand that those stereotypes probably still exist because they have some tendency to represent certain trends in real life (whether that's nature or nurture... I'm not even going to argue).

BUT... this is a game where physical strength is no object; whether Kirito or anyone else is stronger had nothing to do with their physical bodies. It's also a game where time is not an object; everyone is stuck in this game 100% of the time so they can choose how to spend it. So there is no reason at all why a female character couldn't be just as successful or powerful as any male character in this game. And the author himself showed that he knows that, as we saw in the story of Griselda back in Episodes 5 & 6; Griselda had been living the stereotypical housewife life, but she discovered that she could be so much more in the game world, whereas her husband was mired by weakness and doubt.

So we have Asuna; a teenaged girl who overcame her initial fears and decided to stay true to herself and fight in the game. She worked hard (perhaps too hard) and got to a position of power in one of the game's major guilds, and is responsible for major frontline boss strategy meetings among other things. From all appearances, she has more power, prestige, and position than Kirito and the vast majority of those in the game. She's among the game's top elite players.

This story arc, however, is emphasizing her weakness. Now there's nothing wrong with any character having weaknesses; Kirito has weaknesses (many of which we've seen), Klein and Agil have weaknesses, everyone has weaknesses. And there are in-story reasons why her weakness is being emphasized now: she's pushed herself too hard on the guild, her usual tough attitude is weighing on her and on the other guildmembers, and she's under a huge amount of stress. She needs a break, and she wants to spend that break with the person she's fallen in love with. So far, so good: no problems here.

But, the very specific ways the story is exposing those weaknesses reek of the very same old stereotypes that do not necessarily need to apply to this world. The more they show Asuna as weak, the more they show Kirito as strong. So it becomes as if "the man should protect the woman", "the woman's place is in the kitchen cooking for the man", "the woman is the property of the man and can't be entrusted to another man without the man's permission".

Note very importantly that I said "as if". Because, there are actually reasonable in-story explanations for all of these situations:

- Asuna is only showing her weakness now because of her great stress and she needs to rely on Kirito to help her through this time. Everyone has moments of weakness.
- Asuna only got interested in cooking after Kirito taught her that food in this world could taste good, and she invested an awful lot of time, intelligence, and ingenuity in perfecting that craft
- Asuna has obligations to the guild (the gender of the leader notwithstanding), but the only reason for the "deal" was because Heathcliff no doubt figured it was the only hope to get Kirito to join the guild (since he's "better with swords than with words" -- way to go typical male hero... ) Asuna is not actually property to anyone.

But because of the rapid conglomeration of these circumstances, it seems like the story is unnecessarily reinforcing gender stereotypes that aren't really consistent with Asuna's overall characterization, and is doing so only to Kirito's benefit. The balance is off, and perhaps it's just due to circumstance. I am personally hoping that the balance will be restored.


So anyway, you don't need to keep explaining over and over and over the "truth" of gender stereotypes. In fact, please stop. You've made your point over and over again. I think it's just that there's a perception of an overly-patronizing attitude that likely isn't fully intended. You can expect some people to be annoyed by this... but the anime has an opportunity to right this (for the most part) in the resolution. We will see what happens.


I hope that this (lengthy) explanation will help provide a clear and balanced view of the issue/opinion (well, as balanced as I can be) so we can finally put it to rest and get on to discussing other things.

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

...and so on (and on and on).

I think you're missing the point that a few of us are trying to make about this issue. I think pretty much everyone understands perfectly well all the gender stereotypes that you keep trying to explain, and I think most of us can probably understand that those stereotypes probably still exist because they have some tendency to represent certain trends in real life (whether that's nature or nurture... I'm not even going to argue).

BUT... this is a game where physical strength is no object; whether Kirito or anyone else is stronger had nothing to do with their physical bodies. It's also a game where time is not an object; everyone is stuck in this game 100% of the time so they can choose how to spend it. So there is no reason at all why a female character couldn't be just as successful or powerful as any male character in this game. And the author himself showed that he knows that, as we saw in the story of Griselda back in Episodes 5 & 6; Griselda had been living the stereotypical housewife life, but she discovered that she could be so much more in the game world, whereas her husband was mired by weakness and doubt.

So we have Asuna; a teenaged girl who overcame her initial fears and decided to stay true to herself and fight in the game. She worked hard (perhaps too hard) and got to a position of power in one of the game's major guilds, and is responsible for major frontline boss strategy meetings among other things. From all appearances, she has more power, prestige, and position than Kirito and the vast majority of those in the game. She's among the game's top elite players.

This story arc, however, is emphasizing her weakness. Now there's nothing wrong with any character having weaknesses; Kirito has weaknesses (many of which we've seen), Klein and Agil have weaknesses, everyone has weaknesses. And there are in-story reasons why her weakness is being emphasized now: she's pushed herself too hard on the guild, her usual tough attitude is weighing on her and on the other guildmembers, and she's under a huge amount of stress. She needs a break, and she wants to spend that break with the person she's fallen in love with. So far, so good: no problems here.

But, the very specific ways the story is exposing those weaknesses reek of the very same old stereotypes that do not necessarily need to apply to this world. The more they show Asuna as weak, the more they show Kirito as strong. So it becomes as if "the man should protect the woman", "the woman's place is in the kitchen cooking for the man", "the woman is the property of the man and can't be entrusted to another man without the man's permission".

Note very importantly that I said "as if". Because, there are actually reasonable in-story explanations for all of these situations:

- Asuna is only showing her weakness now because of her great stress and she needs to rely on Kirito to help her through this time. Everyone has moments of weakness.
- Asuna only got interested in cooking after Kirito taught her that food in this world could taste good, and she invested an awful lot of time, intelligence, and ingenuity in perfecting that craft
- Asuna has obligations to the guild (the gender of the leader notwithstanding), but the only reason for the "deal" was because Heathcliff no doubt figured it was the only hope to get Kirito to join the guild (since he's "better with swords than with words" -- way to go typical male hero... ) Asuna is not actually property to anyone.

But because of the rapid conglomeration of these circumstances, it seems like the story is unnecessarily reinforcing gender stereotypes that aren't really consistent with Asuna's overall characterization, and is doing so only to Kirito's benefit. The balance is off, and perhaps it's just due to circumstance. I am personally hoping that the balance will be restored.


So anyway, you don't need to keep explaining over and over and over the "truth" of gender stereotypes. In fact, please stop. You've made your point over and over again. I think it's just that there's a perception of an overly-patronizing attitude that likely isn't fully intended. You can expect some people to be annoyed by this... but the anime has an opportunity to right this (for the most part) in the resolution. We will see what happens.


I hope that this (lengthy) explanation will help provide a clear and balanced view of the issue so we can finally put it to rest and get on to discussing other things.

I know what you said is true, why I started ( I guess I was basicly the one who made all this mess...Sorry if it bothered you ) is because people said it was the stereotypes happening when Kirito soloed the Boss, which was like " It should've been Kirito and Asuna, why would they make it like he's some OP character, Asuna is strong too! DAMN STEREOTYPES! "
But this isn't the case, Kirito was obviously the only one in there with the ability to defeat the Boss. As it was mentioned, Kirito had a tough time parrying the Boss' attacks, even with a Heavy sword. Asuna had a rapier, light sword, which probably wouldn't help her to parry, and the only way out would've been avoiding the attacks, and if she made a mistake, she'd be gone.
Kirito may not be more powerful in a PvP agaisn't Asuna, that might be true. But agaisn't this Boss, she couldn't do anything.
Kirito had that special ability which helped him. It's okay if Kirito hadn't used Dual Wielding skills. But he did use it, and if anyone got in the way : A- He could hurt them; B- He would lose his focus and get hit and probably miss his attacks; C- Asuna would attack and it would've been an aggro towards her, and she could die.
I never meant to say Asuna was weaker, mentally nor physically, this is a game so I know that, what I mean is Kirito was the ONE for the job. I don't get how people think it is sexist to let him do the job.
Sorry once again, I won't be talking about this anymore, I hope I didn't bother you, atleast not too much.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This story arc, however, is emphasizing her weakness. Now there's nothing wrong with any character having weaknesses; Kirito has weaknesses (many of which we've seen), Klein and Agil have weaknesses, everyone has weaknesses. And there are in-story reasons why her weakness is being emphasized now: she's pushed herself too hard on the guild, her usual tough attitude is weighing on her and on the other guildmembers, and she's under a huge amount of stress. She needs a break, and she wants to spend that break with the person she's fallen in love with. So far, so good: no problems here.

So the story didn't in any way emphasise the weakness of the Army guys nor Klein nor the whole of the rest of the player population?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

So the story didn't in any way emphasise the weakness of the Army guys nor Klein nor the whole of the rest of the player population?

It did indeed; there is absolutely no doubt in that regard. The point of contention is the imbalance between Kirito and Asuna because of their romantic connection (and Asuna's leadership role in the anime thus far). Part of this is probably partly because of things like the OP where we see Kirito and Asuna fight the boss together side-by-side, whereas reality played out much differently. Speaking personally, though I thought Kirito's dual wield skill was awesome, I thought seeing Kirito and Asuna fight together like that was even better. I hope we'll see that in the future.

Like I said, I personally hope and believe this is just a perception issue caused by a number of circumstances that happened in rapid succession. If that's the case, the perception will no doubt clear up going forward.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, it's not wrong at all, but it is wrong to think you have to help because the person in need is a woman. If the one in need was a man, wouldn't you want help all the same?

From the earlier arcs, Kirito's answer would probably be "Not a cute girl, they can die"

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This story arc, however, is emphasizing her weakness. Now there's nothing wrong with any character having weaknesses; Kirito has weaknesses (many of which we've seen), Klein and Agil have weaknesses, everyone has weaknesses. And there are in-story reasons why her weakness is being emphasized now: she's pushed herself too hard on the guild, her usual tough attitude is weighing on her and on the other guildmembers, and she's under a huge amount of stress. She needs a break, and she wants to spend that break with the person she's fallen in love with. So far, so good: no problems here.

But, the very specific ways the story is exposing those weaknesses reek of the very same old stereotypes that do not necessarily need to apply to this world. The more they show Asuna as weak, the more they show Kirito as strong. So it becomes as if "the man should protect the woman", "the woman's place is in the kitchen cooking for the man", "the woman is the property of the man and can't be entrusted to another man without the man's permission".

Note very importantly that I said "as if". Because, there are actually reasonable in-story explanations for all of these situations:

- Asuna is only showing her weakness now because of her great stress and she needs to rely on Kirito to help her through this time. Everyone has moments of weakness.

It doesn't weaken people to need to rely on others from time to time. I don't think SAO will take the Bleach route (she's amazingly powerful for the first episode or two, then pure damsel in distress 100% of the time after).

I'm not arguing your point, I think it's correct. I see Asuna as a 17 year-old who's taken too many responsibilities, and is suffering under them. She likely makes life and death decisions every other week for the boss fights. Not to mention whatever political problems KoB has.

Even back in the pre-OP scenes of the Murder Mystery arc where Asuna is talking about letting an entire village of NPC's be bait for a roaming boss, it's obvious she's under some stress. And she keeps mentioning just how hard things are in her guild (politics, etc).

I think Asuna sees Kirito's solo ways as a wonderful change. He can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes, without having to answer to anyone.

Kirito is probably starting to see some partying with Asuna as "Not a bad thing (TM)", awesome food, attractive company that he obviously has feelings for, and whom returns those feelings (Kirito sucker punched Klein in a dungeon when he had a dozen guild members with him... that wasn't a well thought out move, that was pure jealously).

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Kirito is probably starting to see some partying with Asuna as "Not a bad thing (TM)", awesome food, attractive company that he obviously has feelings for, and whom returns those feelings (Kirito sucker punched Klein in a dungeon when he had a dozen guild members with him... that wasn't a well thought out move, that was pure jealously).

They're friends (even if Kirito can be a bit vitriolic to his male friends) and the guild members know that. Plus, they're in a safe area of the dungeon, so it's not going to do damage.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Karakuri

I know what you said is true, why I started ( I guess I was basicly the one who made all this mess...Sorry if it bothered you ) is because people said it was the stereotypes happening when Kirito soloed the Boss, which was like " It should've been Kirito and Asuna, why would they make it like he's some OP character, Asuna is strong too! DAMN STEREOTYPES! "
But this isn't the case, Kirito was obviously the only one in there with the ability to defeat the Boss. As it was mentioned, Kirito had a tough time parrying the Boss' attacks, even with a Heavy sword. Asuna had a rapier, light sword, which probably wouldn't help her to parry, and the only way out would've been avoiding the attacks, and if she made a mistake, she'd be gone.
Kirito may not be more powerful in a PvP agaisn't Asuna, that might be true. But agaisn't this Boss, she couldn't do anything.
Kirito had that special ability which helped him. It's okay if Kirito hadn't used Dual Wielding skills. But he did use it, and if anyone got in the way : A- He could hurt them; B- He would lose his focus and get hit and probably miss his attacks; C- Asuna would attack and it would've been an aggro towards her, and she could die.
I never meant to say Asuna was weaker, mentally nor physically, this is a game so I know that, what I mean is Kirito was the ONE for the job. I don't get how people think it is sexist to let him do the job.
Sorry once again, I won't be talking about this anymore, I hope I didn't bother you, atleast not too much.

What you say is correct, but we weren't arguing about that part, we where arguing about the words you used.

"It's a man's duty to protect a woman"

But it seems this discussion has ran its course so lets drop it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They're friends (even if Kirito can be a bit vitriolic to his male friends) and the guild members know that. Plus, they're in a safe area of the dungeon, so it's not going to do damage.

But he did do it without thinking. You could tell by his expression. He was like, "WTF, why did I do that??????"

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

What you say is correct, but we weren't arguing about that part, we where arguing about the words you used.

"It's a man's duty to protect a woman"

Oh, I see. I thought people meant that it was the fact he was stronger and the one to fight the boss that meant it was being sexist, and not only that part.
I'm sorry guys.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

But he did do it without thinking. You could tell by his expression. He was like, "WTF, why did I do that??????"

Which is why I personally used it to point out that Kirito definitely has feelings for Asuna.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They're friends (even if Kirito can be a bit vitriolic to his male friends) and the guild members know that. Plus, they're in a safe area of the dungeon, so it's not going to do damage.

Kirito's face almost every time he sees Klein suggests that Klein likes Kirito a lot more than Kirito likes Klein. Kirito still feels a ton of guilt for abandoning Klein on day one... and has never gotten over it.

[Lumir]

I guess its for the sake of the plot but... Asuna is just letting people use her, and talk about her like she is an object to have or not have. I mean in a game a good guild respects its members and their choices to stay or leave, no matter what position they hold. But here we see a very VERY different situation that makes me wonder why Asuna is letting things play out like this. I mean even in life and death situations respecting peoples choices is a MUST.

As for Kirito's dual blade skill "mysteriously" appearing, I can only think that the games creator is messing around. Heck the creator might even be a player spying on the populace to dish out his plans according to the situation.

[Rising Dragon]

Asuna's doing this because she feels responsible for her position, I imagine. Oftentimes people with responsibility end up burning themselves out over it--Asuna's not unique in that regard.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Lumir

I guess its for the sake of the plot but... Asuna is just letting people use her, and talk about her like she is an object to have or not have. I mean in a game a good guild respects its members and their choices to stay or leave, no matter what position they hold. But here we see a very VERY different situation that makes me wonder why Asuna is letting things play out like this. I mean even in life and death situations respecting peoples choices is a MUST.

That's because Asuna doesn't want to leave. She wants a vacation. She intends to return to the guild and pick up where she left off. If she was willing to burn her bridges, sure, she could leave.

Besides, refusing her that break is really just an excuse. Heathcliff wants to recruit Kirito, that's all. He's less of a slave driver than Asuna herself.

[Krytonis]

My heart wouldn't stop beating during the entire episode. The amazing Kirito finally showed something amazing of himself! I loved this episode and the great moment between Asuna and him. Looking forward to the next ep!

[Shinji103]

I'm not surw why some people are beating around the bush with this gender stereotyping talk, but here's the simplified point that the people with a problem with this arc are trying to make:

This arc makes Asuna look overly weak and Kirito look overly strong; it's selling the "men are stronger than women" overused and cliched stereotype.

And quite frankly, I agree with them. From Asuna not being able to handle Kuradeel's stalking on her own until Kirito the Man steps in to put him in his place, to Asuna being overly clingly, to Kirito suddenly WTF-PWNING a boss by himself. It reeks of the "men are stronger than women" stereotype that I hate so much.
Which is all the more ridiculous since this is a video game, and any physical capabilities of the players have no bearing on their fighting ability whatsoever. Thus being male or female is completely irrelevant to how good someone is in a fight here.

Unfortunately, that just means that SAO is one of many, many, many animes that submit to this stereotype. The combat-capable female character is a rare thing. You'll see a female every now and then who can hold her own like Yoruichi in Bleach or Haman Kahn in Zeta Gundam, but often you'll just see them get tromped in the final fights anyway, assuming they make it there at all.

The point that people are trying to make, again, is that this arc pushes the meassage that men are fighters and women are not, and I can't help but agree with them.