Otakon 2k9 Fansub/Industry Panel

[microlith]

In this corner we have:
All of the companies of the anime industry. Hit hard by the economic downturn, they have had to cut back. Their works ripped off by fansubbers and DVDrip groups, they are constantly attacked by "fandom" as somehow being evil and at the same time, the sole reason for said community's existence!

In the opposite corner we have:
Fansubbers! Mutated over time, once they served a valuable purpose in bringing titles to a wider audience. With the rise of digisubs their actions have served to promote and at the same time, undermine, the very thing they enjoy! Slapping their fansub group tags all over a show as if they had any hand in its creation, they encourage communities of whiners to rage against the machine(tm) that dares pay any money to license works!

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were in industry I wouldn't accept any invitation. Your position flies in the face of things as it stands, and the irritating breed of fandom that roils around you serves only to damage what it enjoys. Waah its too expensive, I don't want to pay for it (ever.)

Kinda funny that the first time in forever that I'd log in and post is to mock the concept of industry treating those who break their copyright as equals, but it's not the first time as anyone who knows my nick on here can tell you.

So I actually read the thread instead of just mocking it. More commences.

Toua

The discouraging fact is that, yes, buying licensed anime has minimal influence on the bottom line. Then again, I wouldn't want foreign capital to shift anime trends (for a short period of time between 2003 and 2005, this was somewhat of an issue).

It's got significantly more impact than the zero (and potentially negative) influence that fansubs have. Also, what "trends" shifted between 2003 and 2005? If you can point one out that isn't purely your own bias I'd be impressed.

One thing is buying anime, another is having ADV or Geneon on production committees. <_<

Oh no, they want to be on hand to get the scripts as quickly as possible. Or who knows what. Can you show even one instance where it's influenced a show for the worse?

zero1328

I think that that was why you said that they've forgotten that we're a "much friendlier type of pirate"

I chuckled. Everyone has their reasons for doing things. Doesn't justify it, though.

Thought I was done.

getfresh
There will be no topics on the legality of fansubbing this year.
No holy war topics or "why we do this" "why we will or won't stop" etc...

Indeed, no discussion is necessary.

This year is more about solutions to issues both sides are having while not having these problems be focused on who did what or harmed who.

What? What -problems- could fansubbers possibly have, aside from the industry collapsing entirely and leaving nothing new to fansub? The harm here is purely one way.

However, many people do not fully understand the constraints the industry side has placed upon itself, myself included.

Sadly, most people in the fansub community plainly don't care. You give them a reason why something takes time, or isn't immediate, then that's just another excuse to avoid any legit path and go for the warez. Every reason has an excuse, it's part of why I despise most "fans" today.

Once we know more about that we can, as we have shown many times in the past to be capable of doing, begin to find solutions that are outside of the box but within the power of the anime companies to take advantage of for their benefit as well as our own.

The moment money comes into play everything will go out the window. The fansub community as it stands is built around getting the shows for free. Period.

The only exceptions are the morons paying CrunchyRoll.

While this all sounds great in theory, it is going to be very difficult to construct a stable route in that direction. Right now, as it stands, we are still 99% looked upon as a thorn in their collective side. The majority do not trust us to be civil enough during such a panel to even be worth their time. Also many look at this type of thing as if them sitting down to chat with us would make them look as if they were condoning our actions.

Which it, in a sense, would be. And no recent (last ten years) fansubber is deserving of that.

we are a much friendlier type of pirate that in general is not out to say "fuck you, you can't stop us!", we just like anime and the hobby of fansubbing.

Then you're in the minority. And unfortunately, most people who watch fansubs -do- subscribe to that.

But while we do like these things, we are in general a bit more demanding when it comes to want we consider a good product that fits our needs.

I know, it's hard for them to remove the price but alas, money does not grow on trees.

In generally we pioneer many of the formats that the industry later comes to use

XDCC servers on trojanned machines is indeed a creative and innovative means of hosting servers. Especially when they're packed full of both airing shows and R1 DVD rips.

[aquastar831]

I sat in on the panel last year, and in my opinion it was civilized and well presented. This gave people the opportunity to hear from both the fansub and industry sides. It wasn't about bashing about one side or the other, though I think some people in the audience seemed to want to take pot shots at certain points. It was a civilized discussion forum type panel, and I'm glad you guys are looking to do it again this year.

[zhurai-tsuki]

I wish I could join in, but as apparently it's in East Coast USA (?), and I'm in West Coast USA, I cannot go unfortunately :/

...though I'll still look into possible topics that would be nice to go through once I get the chance

(on other note: is there any others that might be interested in trying to put up a panel like this eventually in like west coast as well?)

[DryFire]

Originally Posted by microlith

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were in industry I wouldn't accept any invitation. Your position flies in the face of things as it stands, and the irritating breed of fandom that roils around you serves only to damage what it enjoys. Waah its too expensive, I don't want to pay for it (ever.)

Clearly things are going so well for the industry that they should not change their ways, ever.

Copyright imposes an artificial scarcity on content. It does not add value nor give us a reason to buy. Piracy is not really the issue here, more like the scapegoat. Just like how records killed live performances and radio killed records and TV killed radio, etc....

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by microlith

In this corner we have:
All of the companies of the anime industry. Hit hard by the economic downturn, they have had to cut back. Their works ripped off by fansubbers and DVDrip groups, they are constantly attacked by "fandom" as somehow being evil and at the same time, the sole reason for said community's existence!

In the opposite corner we have:
Fansubbers! Mutated over time, once they served a valuable purpose in bringing titles to a wider audience. With the rise of digisubs their actions have served to promote and at the same time, undermine, the very thing they enjoy! Slapping their fansub group tags all over a show as if they had any hand in its creation, they encourage communities of whiners to rage against the machine(tm) that dares pay any money to license works!

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were in industry I wouldn't accept any invitation. Your position flies in the face of things as it stands, and the irritating breed of fandom that roils around you serves only to damage what it enjoys. Waah its too expensive, I don't want to pay for it (ever.)

Kinda funny that the first time in forever that I'd log in and post is to mock the concept of industry treating those who break their copyright as equals, but it's not the first time as anyone who knows my nick on here can tell you.

So I actually read the thread instead of just mocking it. More commences.



It's got significantly more impact than the zero (and potentially negative) influence that fansubs have. Also, what "trends" shifted between 2003 and 2005? If you can point one out that isn't purely your own bias I'd be impressed.


Oh no, they want to be on hand to get the scripts as quickly as possible. Or who knows what. Can you show even one instance where it's influenced a show for the worse?


I chuckled. Everyone has their reasons for doing things. Doesn't justify it, though.

It has already happened. This is exactly the kind of BS post you can keep to yourself. We never asked to be treated as equals. You can take your negative attitude and stuff it for all I'm concerned.

[microlith]

Originally Posted by DryFire

Clearly things are going so well for the industry that they should not change their ways, ever.

Indeed, but it's hard when the large majority of the audience basically wants it to come to them on a silver platter for nothing.

Copyright imposes an artificial scarcity on content. It does not add value nor give us a reason to buy. Piracy is not really the issue here, more like the scapegoat. Just like how records killed live performances

Tell me again how anime can be done in a manner similar to a live performance? Oh right, it can't.

and radio killed records and TV killed radio, etc....

This makes no sense. At no point in that chain did copyright violation play a role in the next medium's success.

[microlith]

Originally Posted by getfresh

It has already happened. This is exactly the kind of BS post you can keep to yourself. We never asked to be treated as equals. You can take your negative attitude and stuff it for all I'm concerned.

Man, I've stuffed it for at least the last 3 years since I got sick of the entitlement attitude that has flared up in the fansub community. Hell the last time I logged into the animesuki forums was december of 2007. This thread managed to get a rise out of me.

The idea that such a panel [could] lead to some sort of solution is really kinda funny.

[KiryuuKazumanosuke]

Yeah, it's pretty sad to see the industry finally getting its act together, and then having its supposed "fans" try to rip it apart.

[KiryuuKazumanosuke]

But honestly I think that in a way revisiting the "same old questions" isn't that bad of an idea. Otakon will be the first major con after the spring season, where CR and Funi completely changed the game by offering essentially "legimate fansubs", with high quality, speedily available digital streams. A lot of the old answers to why people fansub, to provide an early preview, to bring shows that might not get licensed to the fans attention, etc. etc. are simply no longer valid, and there hasn't been any kind of real examination of what this means.
As more and more stuff gets simulcast, is there really a role for fansubs at all? Is it OK to do it for people outside the regions where simulcasting is available? Should everybody go back to finding obscure 80s series to sub?
To my knowledge, there's no community-wide general consensus on these questions; they've barely been discussed at all simply because things happened so rapidly.

[False Dawn]

There's never been a community-wide consensus ever when it comes to digisubs. Problem with discussing those questions in a fansub/industry panel is that the industry will have a stock set of answers, no matter what fansubbers may think. So while it would be fairly interesting to discuss, you'll only get real discussion from the fansubbing side of things.

[zero1328]

Originally Posted by KiryuuKazumanosuke

As more and more stuff gets simulcast, is there really a role for fansubs at all? Is it OK to do it for people outside the regions where simulcasting is available? Should everybody go back to finding obscure 80s series to sub?
To my knowledge, there's no community-wide general consensus on these questions; they've barely been discussed at all simply because things happened so rapidly.

"Barely" is still something though, so at least we have a starting point. You're probably familiar with getfresh and ANN's chat a few months earlier? You raised the same points. There's also the whole obvious panel from last year, so we're not at square one.

Originally Posted by False Dawn

Problem with discussing those questions in a fansub/industry panel is that the industry will have a stock set of answers,

In that regard, you could also/alternatively say that the industry reps may be limited in what they're allowed to say, since they represent the company. A Fansubber would naturally be more able, since they technically don't need to represent anyone but themselves.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by microlith

Oh no, they want to be on hand to get the scripts as quickly as possible. Or who knows what. Can you show even one instance where it's influenced a show for the worse?

Production committee means they are financial investors and are hold rights to the title (the studios don't own them). So you can bet there's an influence. Even if the production committee members do not demand any change, it influences studios seeking larger funding as they will try to produce work that is perceived as more marketable overseas. Note that I'm not saying any of this of good or bad. Anyways, it's really a moot point nowadays.

The only exceptions are the morons paying CrunchyRoll.

So I'm a moron for paying CR?

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by KiryuuKazumanosuke

But honestly I think that in a way revisiting the "same old questions" isn't that bad of an idea.

No, it's an absolutely terrible idea. You're basically trying to get religion on a topic here. In the end you're not going to change anyone's minds. What's needed are solutions that people can agree to.

A lot of the old answers to why people fansub, to provide an early preview, to bring shows that might not get licensed to the fans attention, etc. etc. are simply no longer valid, and there hasn't been any kind of real examination of what this means.

It certainly remains valid for the same questions you ask below -- "as more and more stuff gets simulcast" => just a small amount of what's releasing is simulcasted and a disparagingly tiny fraction of what has been released over the past few years makes it out of Japan. We're talking about a literally handful or two of shows out of several hundreds.

WRT simulcasting, having the approach of implicitly acknowledging fansubs that Viz and TV-Tokyo took with Naruto for example was a good idea that worked out for them. However, the heavy-handed tactic that d-Rights + Funimation used for Hitman Reborn actually backfired -- WTF is the use of simulcasting now when a C&D was issued several months ago? You now have this large gap that is not being filled (since they are filling from ep 1), that discourages viewers to switch over to streaming.

As more and more stuff gets simulcast, is there really a role for fansubs at all? Is it OK to do it for people outside the regions where simulcasting is available? Should everybody go back to finding obscure 80s series to sub?
To my knowledge, there's no community-wide general consensus on these questions; they've barely been discussed at all simply because things happened so rapidly.

Questioning the role of fansubbing isn't valid until we get 75% of content Japan gets. You don't need to find an 80's series to sub. As I mentioned above, there are still TONs of shows that aren't licensed here from the past few years.

[Daiz]

Originally Posted by Starks

Also, like others have touched upon in this topic, I would really like to see this panel dominated by discussion as to why fansubbing persists despite Crunchyroll and Funimation putting out a near-equivalent product for free or low price.

Maybe, just maybe because fansubbing doesn't come with region locking that means you cannot watch the content even if you were willing to pay for it.

Originally Posted by KiryuuKazumanosuke

CR and Funi completely changed the game by offering essentially "legimate fansubs", with high quality, speedily available digital streams.

high quality

Except the quality of official streams is absolutely horrible.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Daiz

Maybe, just maybe because fansubbing doesn't come with region locking that means you cannot watch the content even if you were willing to pay for it.

Even the bad video pans, I can look the other way. But yeah, this.

It's actually quite funny how some guys from my country can see the vids and some can't. Questions regarding regional access would have to be forwarded to someone from TV Tokyo or Gonzo. I mean, do these guys have potential buyers lined up for their niche intellectual properties in such remote European regions as I live in?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Toua

Even the bad video pans, I can look the other way. But yeah, this.

It's actually quite funny how some guys from my country can see the vids and some can't. Questions regarding regional access would have to be forwarded to someone from TV Tokyo or Gonzo. I mean, do these guys have potential buyers lined up for their niche intellectual properties in such remote European regions as I live in?

That's not the issue exactly. It's more like it's very difficult to convince old Japanese men on executive boards to sign a contract with a US company (crunchyroll) to stream to countries that aren't the US.

Also, random small blocks (like, say, asia, or certain countries in Europe) often come from deals for PARTs of the show, like the music.
Remember that anime music usually has separate rights because it is produced by other companies like Lantis or Avec. Often they'll have pre-existing deals for the music in asian or european countries that prevent the show from being streamed there only because some other company has the rights to the opening or ending song.
That's also television stations like animax asia, or europe, that might have regional exclusive broadcasting rights that they just aren't using at the moment.
Sometimes these companies has rights in a larger area than they actually serve. Like, Naruto was licensed in France so the streaming was blocked in France, but it was also blocked in denmark and switzerland, probably because those countries also speak French in places. Therefore we can guess that the French company owned the rights for all French speaking european countries, despite the fact that they didn't actually broadcast in Switzerland or Denmark (from what I know, anyway).

Ristorante Paradiso, for example, is blocked in Italy. But it turns out that Hachiko to Mitchin is actually being shown on TV there, and it's likely they'll show Ristorante on TV too. So in fact, it probably IS licensed in that country, and the region locking is reasonable. It's just that usually we don't see the legal reason for it publicly

[Scab]

In no part of Denmark do the danes speak French. Other than that bit of speculation being wrong, licensing issues are probably part of the problem for certain shows, but I doubt it's much of an issue for brand new productions. Licensing is just traditionally done by region (larger region costs more, smaller region or a single country costs less) resulting in lots of different local companies handling the adaptions. This practice doesn't go away just because the interwebz don't really take geography into account, so we're in a sense stuck with it for no good practical purpose when it comes to streaming services. It's a matter of getting the suits to realize this and loosen the grip on these rights, but yeah, as we've seen a thousand times over now, they're not very keen on that sort of thing...

[Obi-Wan]

We ran a panel a lot like the one Otakon did last year back in 2005 at MTAC. The questions and the discussion was great, but fansubbers were underrepresented as I was the only one there. It's funny because back then, the industry guys on the panel said having online content like iTunes or subscription based downloadable content would be the next step for companies meeting the fans in the middle. I forget who all was on the panel from the industry, but remember it was a man from Harmony Gold who was in the marketing, some people from the production side of ADV, a voice actor from ADV, and so forth.

The day before I headlined a smaller panel that had a full house and did really well explaining the basics of fansubbing and the details of each step in the process. They really liked that one. If I could suggest anything, I would focus on trying to teach your audience something they didn't know so that it breaks down barriers and lets them understand things like why a DVD subtitling doesn't support karaoke effects, why dubs are necessary and so forth.

[Ayanami9870]

Glad to see that this year's panel is going to be more centered the industry side of things. In last year's thread I felt there was too much focus on who was going to "represent the fansubbing side." Now that the ice is broken, we can really begin to touch base with both sides. With all the changes that have happened in fansubbing, it was only a matter of time before a response would emerge from the industry. I think all of us will be interested to hear what the industry has to say about Crunchyroll and the new online video streaming model Funimation (and for a while, GONZO) has been trying out.

There have been a lot of different views on this thread, from the effectiveness of this panel to the many nuances on the business side of things, from copyright, to production, to licensing. I think we can all agree that getting some definitive words from the industry people at this panel or any subsequent panel with a similar purpose would be best way to approach it. So I say, just let them sit down and have ample opportunity to speak out to us, talk about crunchyroll and other things that have been on their minds. It is their turn to share their stories. There's a potential for us to learn a lot from these recent developments.

Depending on how things change throughout the rest of the year, I think it'll be the first time in a long time where fansubbers have one unifying topic to spark debate about amongst ourselves. Regardless of whether fansubbers can come to a consensus or not (as if we ever had consensus on anything), I feel it is good for the fansubbing scene to gain awareness on these kinds of issues once again; to debate about an industry that many of us have come to neglect over the years.

Good luck on the industry invites, fresh. I look forward to the logs from the panel. Hopefully by the time it's done, we'll have gained some valuable information.

[cyth]

One more thing: This year's panel needs to be a bit longer. One hour for discussion, half an hour for Q&A with the audience?