Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by sa547

He described the terrifying power of the atomic bomb, and it dawned upon me that Madoka possessed, in her final form, incalculable amount of power to change the universe, time and space, and rewrite all the rules of the game, and she unleashed this energy to destroy the final enemy, but at the cost of losing her corporeal existence.

It think you're fan-wanking a bit. She didn't have the power to rewrite all the rules, or she would have done just that. Her power was her wish, witch was the one rule she added to the game, and then the universe rearranged itself to accommodate that rule (Kyubey tells this to Homura).

And her "final enemy", which was her witch form (aka herself) was destroyed by Madoka's own wish, which took the form of herself because she wished to erase the witches with "her own hands". This paradox (aka, Madoka destroying Madoka) was what erased her from the universe. She didn't just lose her "corporeal existence". Being "born" from the paradox that is to kill herself, she became a non-existent existence, a paradoxical being, a non-being, of you will.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It think you're fan-wanking a bit. She didn't have the power to rewrite all the rules, or she would have done just that. Her power was her wish, witch was the one rule she added to the game, and then the universe rearranged itself to accommodate that rule (Kyubey tells this to Homura).

And her "final enemy", which was her witch form (aka herself) was destroyed by Madoka's own wish, which took the form of herself because she wished to erase the witches with "her own hands". This paradox (aka, Madoka destroying Madoka) was what erased her from the universe. She didn't just lose her "corporeal existence". Being "born" from the paradox that is to kill herself, she became a non-existent existence, a paradoxical being, a non-being, of you will.

I acknowledge those errors of logic and misunderstanding, for I tend to interpret things in the mind of a fanfic writer, but whatever she did, she achieved Nirvana.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This paradox (aka, Madoka destroying Madoka) was what erased her from the universe.

now that you mentioned it, it made me curious why only witch madoka among pms-turning-into-witches reached her witch form. after madoka's wish was made, she travelled around the world and across time "to erase" the witches and let the pms rest smiling in peace. this was shown madoka cleansing each pm's soul gem. none of the pms did reach their supposedly witch form.

however, madoka's darkened soul gem did reach the ultimate kriemhild gretchen. and it's the only one witch "attacked" (not cleansed) by yellow-eyed madoka.

i wonder if there is more into this...

[Jimmy C]

It could be that her "final" witch form was that great a menace even before hatching from the Soul Gem.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kaigan

however, madoka's darkened soul gem did reach the ultimate kriemhild gretchen. and it's the only one witch "attacked" (not cleansed) by yellow-eyed madoka.

i wonder if there is more into this...

I doubt it. Since this is Shinbo we're talking about, I bet all my kitties on Shaft making it that way for the shock value. If Madoka erased her soul gem before it became a witch, it wouldn't have being nearly as epic as it was, and they obviously wanted it epic, really epic.

A super big hint of this is the present of an Antoni (a Witch familiar) in that scene, even thought it shouldn't be possible for a familiar to exist since Madoka had already took care of all the witches of the universe before that moment. Therefore, the Antoni was there just for epic value (even thought its presence there was totally nonsensical, plot wise). That same with witch Madoka. no doubt.

That's all there is to it IMO.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It could be that her "final" witch form was that great a menace even before hatching from the Soul Gem.

considering how huge her soul gem is, i find this highly possible.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I doubt it. Since this is Shinbo we're talking about, I bet all my kitties on Shaft making it that way for the shock value. If Madoka erased her soul gem before it became a witch, it wouldn't have being nearly as epic as it was, and they obviously wanted it epic, really epic.

i'm convinced that they didn't fail in that department. the shock-and-awe experience still lingers in my mind.

A super big hint of this is the present of an Antoni (a Witch familiar) in that scene, even thought it shouldn't be possible for a familiar to exist since Madoka had already took care of all the witches of the universe before that moment. Therefore, the Antoni was there just for epic value (even thought its presence there was totally nonsensical, plot wise). That same with witch Madoka. no doubt.

That's all there is to it IMO.

yes, i wonder why that familiar is acting too friendly. guess he knows who the more superior is but then again, you are correct, witches at that time should no longer exist.

i was hoping that there's more to it to expand, hopefully for another season or in the spinoff (though unlikely in the latter). but who knows, they might change their mind and give us more treat

[kitten320]

Question, what are those weird wings on Homura's back at the end?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Question, what are those weird wings on Homura's back at the end?

Since it's clear she can use them as a weapon against the Majuu, the wings are probably an evolution of her power. After all, she already had wings before the ending. White wings, but wings nonetheless. The latter ones are probably just an upgrade of the first ones.

There's no way to sure though.

[Snork]

and then the universe rearranged itself to accommodate that rule (Kyubey tells this to Homura).

and basically, it doesn't seem rearranged that much. As was speculated before, the fact that the history seems intact (a foregone conclusion, but asumably the opposite might have caused a butterfly effect wide enough to erase ALL of the main cast or at least change their fates and lives significantly) shows that the demons (either spawning instead of witches or simply continuing to exist like they had done before witches) seem to have filled pretty much evert "event hole" out there, meaning that the roughly the same people fell prey to them, and the same Puella Magi waged wars on them. While there are assumptions that demons may be weaker than witches, I'm cautious about that point until we ever see them in action. They do look like crash dummies, but hey, how much harm would you expect from Charlotte at first glance? And, to boot, the whole system looks the same in theory - magical girls prone to despair still go down quicker. Madoka just interferes with the worst consequence of the soul gwm corruption process. Of course, it doesn't devalue her wish in the least - Madoka Gambit is still the biggest punch in Kyuubey's static face. No one can guarantee that a differently-worded claim would have worked out better or at least just as well - so all we can do is applaud to this girl for what she was smart, informed and heroic enough to do.

but whatever she did, she achieved Nirvana.

I guess that's one optimistic way to put it...

I doubt it. Since this is Shinbo we're talking about, I bet all my kitties on Shaft making it that way for the shock value. If Madoka erased her soul gem before it became a witch, it wouldn't have being nearly as epic as it was, and they obviously wanted it epic, really epic.

I keep in mind that the perspective of Homura's soul we watch it from (yes, the soul - you don't think she teleported to the moon just because, do you?). Since the said soul is partially locked out of time, she could witness the remains of the timeline, including some events in the process of retconning. Like Walpurgis Night a scene before who tried to attack Madoka for a short while even though by all logic it should have disappeared immediately - and its crumbling state could as well be the showcase for the whole world, since without WN around, Madoka's wish and many other events in this timeline alone simply hadn;t happened. From the moment Madoka voiced her wish, this timeline was nothing but a continuity failure collapsing under the weight of innumerable glitches and paradoxes. Shinbo just made it spectacular.
And yes, Antony is there for the visual sake, this I'm pretty sure of. Even though I can't call Madoka a deity per se, there's nothing to argue about in regards to the theological allusions thrown in to make her look as one - since her becoming hope for Puella Magi, the hope for them to be redeemed after death... is as big a deja vu as any person who's ever HEARD about the Bible can get.

i was hoping that there's more to it to expand, hopefully for another season or in the spinoff (though unlikely in the latter). but who knows, they might change their mind and give us more treat

someone at /a/ posted a speculah on how this could actually turn out:

Spoiler for speculah:

Director Shinbo says it will be a slice of life show focusing on character relationships.

-In the recreated world, Homura transfers into school out of habit. She's still cold and aloof. However, when she encounters Mami and Kyouko while hunting demons, the girls form a team and become friends.

-Sayaka contracts despite Homura's efforts to stop her. When Kyousuke and Hitomi grow closer, Kyouko is determined to cheer Sayaka up. The girls visit the beach, a hot spring, a fireworks festival, and have a sleepover together.

-The teacher, Kazuko, does her best to find true love. Madoka's mother tries to help, but is overwhelmed with big events at her company and taking care of Tatsuya. Luckily, Madoka helps everyone out behind the scenes.

-Even though she's found a new home with Mami's magical girl team, Homura sets out on a quest to uncover the secrets behind magic. Will she be able to master the reality-warping powers of witches, free humanity from suffering, and reunite with Madoka?

The Kyouko and Sayaka part... just make THAT come true, Magica Quartet, and I might even forgive you the fact that Sayaka still dies in the end...

And as to Homura's wings, I'm currently resting on the option that they are part of her new magical equipment. I really wonder if she's [one of] the strongest Puella Magi in the new world. By pure magic alone, that is - I don't even mentioned her retained memories, including the WHOLE battle experience (of course, she dealt with a different kind of enemy before, and by different means... but still, she may be looking like a spetsnaz veteran compared to Mami and Kyouko ).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Snork

and basically, it doesn't seem rearranged that much.

Well, whatever positivity added to the universe by Madoka's wish was obviously going to be countered by the universe itself adding enough new negativity to the system to keep the sum to ZERO. So, it's only natural that changes are kept to the minimum.

More importantly, Madoda's wish changed things, but overall, things didn't get any better, because in the end the balance is always ZERO.

Then again, this is not completely true (). Something that wasn't supposed to happen did happen, which is Homura remembering Madoka. This means that instead of 0, the balance is 0,000...01. In that respect, Homura may possibly be the only actual HOPE of salvation for the world, which, as Homura explained, is inevitably heading towards destruction.

Originally Posted by Snork

I guess that's one optimistic way to put it...

Is it really? Achieving Nirvana pretty much means total detachment from everything that makes you human. Some people call it the "end of the world" because while you gain a perfect awareness of the universe, you lose your personal one (and yeah, I'm aware this is a paradox lol).

"you can only appreciate the sweet with the bitter." I don't remember who said this but the meaning is clear: it's only because there's sadness and sorrow that you can appreciate happiness. Now, Nirvana, means to finally be free from all the "negative" emotions and as such, you end up being absolutely detached from the "positive" ones, since in the end, neither experience can exists without the other.

From a purely humanistic stand point, Nirvana is very very sad!!

Originally Posted by Snork

Even though I can't call Madoka a deity per se, there's nothing to argue about in regards to the theological allusions thrown in to make her look as one - since her becoming hope for Puella Magi, the hope for them to be redeemed after death... is as big a deja vu as any person who's ever HEARD about the Bible can get.

I think Gen is too detached from hope for the future of mankind, something he himself admits, to fully understand those theological allusions, and more so, what hope actually means.

I think Gen wanted to make it so that, due to her wish, Madoka would become hope itself, because that sounds really cool. But that's a misunderstanding of what hope really means. Hope is in the knowledge, in the memory, in the belief of an act, not in the act itself.

Let's put in a different way. What would be the point of a god, whoever it is, if nobody knows about it, nobody believes in it. There would be no point, because the freaking point is the belief, not whether such god actually exists or not. It's that belief or knowledge what gives people hope. This is why it was so important for the apostles of Jesus to go around the world telling everyone about what Jesus did. Otherwise there would have been no point in his sacrifice, and his hope would have been only "alive" in those few who knew about him.

Gen (arguably) created god, but that existence can not be hope itself, as Gen tried to sell to the viewer. It is only in the knowledge, the belief, or the memories, of what "god" Madoka did for all the other magical girls, that hope really exists.

But the problem is, that only Homura knows about that, so she's the only one wherein Madoka's hope is really "alive".

This would change if Homura were to go preaching about Madoka like a real prophet, like the apostles who went around the world telling everyone about Jesus and what he did. But I don't see Homura doing that, it's just not in her character. Instead of spreading Madoka's hope around the magical world, what I can see Homura doing is to become a personification of this hope herself, and take the burden of saving the world all into herself.

Originally Posted by Snork

And as to Homura's wings, I'm currently resting on the option that they are part of her new magical equipment. I really wonder if she's [one of] the strongest Puella Magi in the new world. By pure magic alone, that is - I don't even mentioned her retained memories, including the WHOLE battle experience (of course, she dealt with a different kind of enemy before, and by different means... but still, she may be looking like a spetsnaz veteran compared to Mami and Kyouko ).

I think she's the strongest Magical Girl in the world. That's already hinted by the white wins before the ending. She's basically an "angel", so I expect her to be in a different level than all the others. Besides, unless she does begin to tell others magical girls about Madoka, she is the sole carrier of Madoka's hope, so it's only proper for her to have awesome powers to go with it.

[Snork]

Something that wasn't supposed to happen did happen, which is Homura remembering Madoka

Homura has been a pebble in the gears since contracting. Since Madoka's "new world" is basically another timeline, the wish mechanics still worked. The only reason Madoka called it a possibility rather than a certainty is because there was no 100% guarantee these mechanics would work one last time before thewish itself was retconned. Fortunately, they did.

which, as Homura explained, is inevitably heading towards destruction.

Yeah, I have long suspected that her real last name starts with U rather than A.

From a purely humanistic stand point, Nirvana is very very sad!!

That's right. I don't know anything much about nirvana, but I know that the recent PMMM-themed Mother's Day fanart almost made me bawl.

I think Gen is too detached from hope for the future of mankind, something he himself admits, to fully understand those theological allusions, and more so, what hope actually means.

Oh, but Gen is not the only one in the credits. And Shaft was NEVER above allusions. In fact, it's always been FULL of them.

But the problem is, that only Homura knows about that, so she's the only one wherein Madoka's hope is really "alive".

I think so, too. But some things and attitudes apparently changed. At least, Mami is alright with the knowledge that magical girls disappear when they burn out or when despair devours them, so that they don't start spreading that despair all over the world (btw, I doubt the last part could be theorised that easily without real witches around, and Incubators would not be ranting freely about the concepts they could not explain... Maybe Homura did spill some beans, after all? ). Of course, she always knew that letting your soul gem darken beyond repair could not end well. In essence, as was often said above, Madoka brought the system close to the way Mami has always imagined it.
Then again, there are other characters. Oriko, for example - not foreseeing WN could easily change her path completely.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Snork

I think so, too. But some things and attitudes apparently changed. At least, Mami is alright with the knowledge that magical girls disappear when they burn out or when despair devours them, so that they don't start spreading that despair all over the world (btw, I doubt the last part could be theorised that easily without real witches around, and Incubators would not be ranting freely about the concepts they could not explain... Maybe Homura did spill some beans, after all? ).

I doubt it, since it's obvious that scene is the first time Mami and Kyoko hear the name "Madoka".

If you ask me, that scene is there to force the viewer to believe that somehow magical girls themselves can tell they are better off in this world, even if there's no way they could understand that without knowing about Madoka, as you noted. In fact, QB outright tells Homura they don't really know why exhausted soul gems disappear, so for Mami to be saying what she said is just not possible.

It's inconsistency for the sake of getting across Gem's ideas. But this happened because Gen never understood the real meaning of hope to begin with.

[kaigan]

maybe someone noticed this before, but i happen to start doubting if tatsuya really recalls madoka as her onee-chan or has memories that belongs to past timelines parallel to homu-chan.

as he was etching madoka's outline in the sand in ep 12, tatsuya's caricature was dressed in pm. could he possibly witnessed his onee-chan transforming or fighting in her pm attire? or did the now-force-of-nature-madoka appear in his dreams or in apparitions?

what i can make out of this is that homu's case is really special. all her memories with madoka seems to be intact. madoka's mom however has a pretty vague memory of recognizing the name. and for tatsuya, i'm clueless why his image of madoka is that of a magical girl?! or is this has something to the campus note of madoka?


* not the best screen grab, artifacts present T_T

[Akashin]

I don't think we were supposed to read any more into it than it being a simple case of childhood imagination with an extremely vague recollection of Madoka. I hesitate to say he really remembers her any more than Junko does, really; he just has childish imagination to go with it. Why he remembers her name and why he drew her in PM clothing is anybody's guess.

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I don't think we were supposed to read any more into it than it being a simple case of childhood imagination with an extremely vague recollection of Madoka. I hesitate to say he really remembers her any more than Junko does, really; he just has childish imagination to go with it. Why he remembers her name and why he drew her in PM clothing is anybody's guess.

and that is something i'm really afraid of. just like what QB said, there's no way of validating homu's theory of a certain madoka since she's the only one remembering it; that there's nothing to it aside from being a product of her imagination. and juxtapose this to tatsuya's, it's painful to imagine that in the outside world, homu's memories of her best friend is just like an infantile creation or a mental illness at worst

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by kaigan

and that is something i'm really afraid of. just like what QB said, there's no way of validating homu's theory of a certain madoka since she's the only one remembering it; that there's nothing to it aside from being a product of her imagination. and juxtapose this to tatsuya's, it's painful to imagine that in the outside world, homu's memories of her best friend is just like an infantile creation or a mental illness at worst

From an outside perspective, that's exactly right. But I don't really consider that truth painful; Homura knows otherwise, and so long as she does Madoka would never be just a figment of childish imagination. She would never be (nor should she be) the goddess-like figure she could be seen as, but she isn't a complete non-existence either.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Akashin

She would never be (nor should she be) the goddess-like figure she could be seen as, but she isn't a complete non-existence either.

Loved this. Instead of simply fan-wanking Madoka as a goddess, as many do, your comment really captures what is important about the ending: even though there should not be any trace of Madoka in the world anymore, a bit of her is still present, in Homura, and a bit in Tatsuya too. That's what is important, that in itself is THE miracle.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Akashin

From an outside perspective, that's exactly right. But I don't really consider that truth painful; Homura knows otherwise, and so long as she does Madoka would never be just a figment of childish imagination. She would never be (nor should she be) the goddess-like figure she could be seen as, but she isn't a complete non-existence either.

QFT. Better to see her fate in that way.

[Snork]

Maybe Tatsuya could see Madoka briefly? In her PM attire and all that. Children are said to be more perceptive to immaterial spirits, and it could only soothe our hearts to think that she might interact with the world, if to this smallest extent (not counting her interaction with magical girls, of course).

Loved this. Instead of simply fan-wanking Madoka as a goddess, as many do,

... we should start fan-wanking her as a valkyrie already. Where's mah fanart?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by kaigan

now that you mentioned it, it made me curious why only witch madoka among pms-turning-into-witches reached her witch form. after madoka's wish was made, she travelled around the world and across time "to erase" the witches and let the pms rest smiling in peace. this was shown madoka cleansing each pm's soul gem. none of the pms did reach their supposedly witch form.

however, madoka's darkened soul gem did reach the ultimate kriemhild gretchen. and it's the only one witch "attacked" (not cleansed) by yellow-eyed madoka.

i wonder if there is more into this...

She took all their despair unto herself. That despair had to be manifested eventually. It wasn't just going to disappear.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Loved this. Instead of simply fan-wanking Madoka as a goddess, as many do, your comment really captures what is important about the ending: even though there should not be any trace of Madoka in the world anymore, a bit of her is still present, in Homura, and a bit in Tatsuya too. That's what is important, that in itself is THE miracle.

Goddess? She's only seen that way the same way Buddhists rever and worship Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. They are all gods in a sense. And all Nirvana (as opposed to Samsaric beings stuck in the cycle of existence)

The meaning of her sacrifice, the message that brings and the protection it gives. The concept of that.....That is the truly divine thing about her.

Originally Posted by kaigan

and that is something i'm really afraid of. just like what QB said, there's no way of validating homu's theory of a certain madoka since she's the only one remembering it; that there's nothing to it aside from being a product of her imagination. and juxtapose this to tatsuya's, it's painful to imagine that in the outside world, homu's memories of her best friend is just like an infantile creation or a mental illness at worst

Yet the truth of it remains truth no matter what reality says. Her memories are not any less real for it.