Code Geass R2 - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Alright, now I get what you are saying. I can see your view point, but I don't think it is as you say. The SAZ was only a start and things change over time. No one said Suzaku would be able to initiate laws over night after becoming KoO, but the process can be done.

Nothing in the system shows that it will accept change, see Rolo assassinations. There is nothing to say that he will succeed when the price for even just the SAZ was so astronomically high.

Even Charles said it in Ep.14, that the only thing he found when he siezed power was that Britannia was unalterably rotten.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Damn it... I keep forgetting that Rolo Governmental Assassinations...<.<
But again, how is Suzaku shown to be a terrible military commander? Comparing him to those you just named really isn't fair at all. Even Toudou is pathetic compared to Lelouch. We also haven't seen much of Suzaku in a commander role yet. Just once and he only lost because of a freak bubble attack.

Because aside from Todou, who is still a better tactician than Suzaku and is likely on level with Lelouch to some degree, there are no others shown. These are the people running the world, if Suzaku also wants to be on that stage he'd need to have a brain in his head that would be at least slightly comparable.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Nothing in the system shows that it will accept change, see Rolo assassinations. There is nothing to say that he will succeed when the price for even just the SAZ was so astronomically high.

Even Charles said it in Ep.14, that the only thing he found when he siezed power was that Britannia was unalterably rotten.

If that is the case, then poor Suzaku doesn't know it yet. But I would like to think all the sacrifices he made to get to where he wants wouldn't be in vein like that... Hell, if that is the case then neither he or Lelouch look like are going to win in the end and both are doomed to failure.

Because aside from Todou, who is still a better tactician than Suzaku and is likely on level with Lelouch to some degree, there are no others shown. These are the people running the world, if Suzaku also wants to be on that stage he'd need to have a brain in his head that would be at least slightly comparable.

Again, we don't know how good he really is though. He never really had an oppurtunity to shine in the tactics development since he never really had command over a large number of forces till now.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

If that is the case, then poor Suzaku doesn't know it yet. But I would like to think all the sacrifices he made to get to where he wants wouldn't be in vein like that... Hell, if that is the case then neither he or Lelouch look like are going to win in the end and both are doomed to failure.

Lelouch's method is to destroy Britannia, not change it. His method is proven to work by history. Suzaku has been doomed to fail since the start, that is where he falls into the story. It serves to show how rotten Britannia truly is.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Again, we don't know how good he really is though. He never really had an oppurtunity to shine in the tactics development since he never really had command over a large number of forces till now.

Fine. He's given us one example, that is the only example we have, and it failed. Until others are shown, he is bad.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

If that is the case, then poor Suzaku doesn't know it yet. But I would like to think all the sacrifices he made to get to where he wants wouldn't be in vein like that... Hell, if that is the case then neither he or Lelouch look like are going to win in the end and both are doomed to failure.

Except that Lelouch doesn't want to change Britannia, he wants to destroy it and build something better in it's place.

Again, we don't know how good he really is though. He never really had an oppurtunity to shine in the tactics development since he never really had command over a large number of forces till now.

He had a large fleet under his control that Lelouch flipped. It is not that he walked right into Lelouch's trap that makes him a bad leader, it is when the trap is sprung and his troops are in disarray and he didn't do anything to bring the situation under control and was only staring in disbelief. Gino was the one giving commands when he came on the scene when Suzaku didn't.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Var

Lelouch's method is to destroy Britannia, not change it. His method is proven to work by history. Suzaku has been doomed to fail since the start, that is where he falls into the story. It serves to show how rotten Britannia truly is.

Destroying Britannia could take past his life time. Even if he combines the rest of the world into one.

Fine. He's given us one example, that is the only example we have, and it failed. Until others are shown, he is bad.

He lost to a freak bubble attack.... How can anyone say he is bad from something like that? It isn't even something that would enter into a commander's mind during a battle.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Destroying Britannia could take past his life time. Even if he combines the rest of the world into one.

It would still be more succesful than Suzaku.

[morbosfist]

His battle plan wasn't exactly creative to begin with: "Bomb them to the surface then I'll deal with it."

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Lelouch's method is to destroy Britannia, not change it. His method is proven to work by history. Suzaku has been doomed to fail since the start, that is where he falls into the story. It serves to show how rotten Britannia truly is.

I suppose Charles would be the example of how that method failed. He was like Suzaku who tried to change from within but couldn't.

Though as the saying goes, history repeats itself. Lelouch builds himself a nation to rival britannia which then succeeds in destroying that nation and then what?

He had a large fleet under his control that Lelouch flipped. It is not that he walked right into Lelouch's trap that makes him a bad leader, it is when the trap is sprung and his troops are in disarray and he didn't do anything to bring the situation under control and was only staring in disbelief. Gino was the one giving commands when he came on the scene when Suzaku didn't.

On the contrary, Suzaku immediately took action when he was off-duty with Shirley in regards to those bombs.

His battle plan wasn't exactly creative to begin with: "Bomb them to the surface then I'll deal with it."

Well it's not everyday that you'd expect someone to whip out a map showing all methane deposits in the nearby ocean.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

On the contrary, Suzaku immediately took action when he was off-duty with Shirley in regards to those bombs.

He is a decent enough leader with smaller issues, but not a world class leader needed to lead an army or nation. And really all he did was say he will direct the police and firemen as the Knight of Seven.

[morbosfist]

I'm pretty sure that big tank he blew up was where the methane came from.

[Var]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Well it's not everyday that you'd expect someone to whip out a map showing all methane deposits in the nearby ocean.

Nonsense, I carry a map of every methane deposits in the entire world. Not to mention my maps of earthquake inducable regions. Never leave home without them in case of a rebellion.

[EternalMelody]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

On the contrary, Suzaku immediately took action when he was off-duty with Shirley in regards to those bombs.

I expect even Suzaku should be able to do that. Any high rank people are expected to be able to do those trivial stuff. If it was Gino who happened to be there, I believe he would have done that also, since it requires very little to no commanding skills. It requires only authority and rank.

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Var

Nonsense, I carry a map of every methane deposits in the entire world. Not to mention my maps of earthquake inducable regions. Never leave home without them in case of a rebellion.

yeah and don't forget your geass...oh was i supposed to know that.

anywho...anybody understand the whole how lulu got out of his knightmare frame w/o realizing it? or is this some trick played by v.v.

[morbosfist]

He's standing in a floating temple orbiting Jupiter. Leaving his Knightmare without realizing it is just the tip of the iceberg.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Regular drugs do that. Refrain does not. It makes people hallucinate about happier times. There's no inhibitions being broken down, just old memories being forcibly recalled. There's no basis in the show for this being a viable method of interrogation. People don't even acknowledge those around them, much less truthfully answer questions.

How do you or Var know this?? You've only seen it from the perspective of the user...Now I don't want to expose myself too much, but if Refrain is anything relative to certain drugs in our world that make you see $hit (Like shroomz for instance )...When someone is f*cked up (sorry I had to be frank here) they can be in there own little world and you can still ask them $hit and they will answer it...I'm in a fraternity, so trust me a little bit^^ (Whether or not you're judging me)...Now I'm not saying this is what Suzaku is doing...He's prolly trying to just scare answers out of her or maybe he knows something the audience doesn't know yet...But please understand when people are in a f*cked up, drugged-up, $hit-faced state they will say things, usually the truth...With Kallen's utter loyalty and faith in Lulu as Zero who knows if a happy memory or time for her is when she almost kissed Lulu or some similiar situation that makes her just blurt out his name while being chided...You don't know anything about the bases of how you can manipulate someone in a f*cked up state unless you've tried it <.<...

[morbosfist]

Your alluded drug use aside, this ain't the real world. This is anime. You're ignoring the series to apply your own experience to a fictional drug. Get some perspective and watch episode 9. People under the influence of this drug are beyond detached from reality. Kallen swung her mother around in the palm of her Knightmare's hand and that drugged-out maid didn't even notice. Kallen isn't going to be answering questions.

[jery626]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Though as the saying goes, history repeats itself. Lelouch builds himself a nation to rival britannia which then succeeds in destroying that nation and then what?

I think Lelouch wanted to build a better world where he and Nunnaly can live peacefully and not to rival Britannia. Maybe he'll go back to school, get married, have kids then pass his legacy?

[wingdarkness]

@morbosfist - Duh, this is anime...It's a called an argument ...Some people can hold there liqueur, some people zap out after one beer...Refrain like any other drug (keep in mind the fact that it is fictional lends itself to real-world comparisons in a discussion) may have different limits for different people...I for one don't know what Suzaku's plans are and despite my hopes of seeing something dramatically raw like this I don't really think he'll do it, but I'm more than content having a debate based on drugging someone up to try and get answers (whether it be a psychological game or real one)...I've seen this happen therefor I feel there is some basis for it...I'm certainly sure the writers didn't pull Refrain out of their armpits, they based it and//or evolved it from something that existed in the real world (shroomz, heroine, Pcp, Acid, so forth and so on perhaps)...We'll see the fruit of Suzaku's decision and if I'm right or not, but you guys are far too dismissive based on things I've seen...I'll rely on my own mindset for this scenario...You rely on your hypnotoad ;p...

[morbosfist]

Of course, for all must hail the hypnotoad. You're still applying too much personal experience without considering the facts we already have. The facts as they are say this tact won't work. She'll just start talking about her family and Suzaku will have drugged her for nothing.

[wingdarkness]

^Unless the memory of a happy time somehow involves her recent experiences with Lulu, but we'll see...