2009-10-26, 04:38 | Link #281 |
Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
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My friend is from Ghana, I went to this party of his and the ONLY food there was meat. He knows my situation but forgot, ended up ordering a pizza for me XD.
me: "so...is there anything without meat here?" his dad: *facepalm* "I'm so sorry..." *walks over to friend* "how could you forget!" friend: Ironically out of all the parties of his I've been to all these years, this is the only time this ever happened.
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2009-10-26, 04:48 | Link #282 | |||
blinded by blood
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From what I've seen as a cook, Americans generally consider vegetables to be a side dish, for health reasons--a "necessary evil" amidst the meat, the potatoes, the bread and pasta and the sweets. I don't think this is true, personally. I have many times just eaten vegetables with nothing else for a meal (though if I go for too many weeks without eating any meat, I do tend to feel rather sick). Quote:
Well it's not so much a case of not knowing what you're missing. Most vegetarians weren't vegetarians to start with, especially if they have changed their diet based on moral concerns. For people like this, there's usually a point in time when they realize that their own personal morality will not allow them to eat animal flesh and feel okay about it.
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2009-10-26, 09:40 | Link #283 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: www.youtube.com/langknow
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Love eating meat, wouldn't want it any other way .
I'm not particular about the meat too, as long as it's not humans I'm ok with it. Of course , it has to taste good. And you wouldn't believe how many meats taste like "chicken"...
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2009-10-26, 09:45 | Link #284 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
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I don't eat meat, because I'm a utilitarian. It's just part of my personal ethical view.
I also try to eat vegan most of the time, but I'm not strict about it. Like, I have some eggs or cheese once a week or so. Just a little bit. |
2009-10-26, 14:55 | Link #287 | |||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Cows might spend a lot of time digesting, but the food intake itself keeps them busy. Not to mention that cows are social animals and need to be able to interact with others in order to be content, especially calves. Quote:
I'm not sure what goes for bio meat. I guess, however, that those animals are considerably better off than those in factory farming, especially when we're not talking about "beef" cows, who at least get to see the sun for a few months in their lives even in factory farming. The transport to the slaughterhouse and the slaughtering itself might be by far the worst for "bio" cattle, but I'd have to look for deatailed information on this some time. Quote:
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If you constantly kick a calf (or a very young child), it will not just forget about it. It might not be able to comprehend why you are doing it or what it implies, but it will suffer, and the suffering will show in its behaviour, even if you stop kicking it suddenly. I don't know if you've ever seen a traumatized dog, but yes, non-animals can definitely suffer severe psychological damage. It would be hard to prove that they are harmed less than "rational animals" in a similar situation. Quote:
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2009-10-26, 17:43 | Link #288 | |||||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Hmpf. I know that you know, that I am just teasing you a little.
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2009-10-27, 07:54 | Link #291 |
ひきこもりアイドル
IT Support
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pennsylvania , United States
Age: 34
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I do eat meat since I'm a very picky eater unfortunately when it comes to vegetables and I can never become a vegetarian because of my eating habits.
But then again, the ethical reasons of eating meat can also be applied to vegetables too. Vegetables have feelings too and are living things (although they don't have a nervous system like animals do)... If you don't water them or put them in light, they were welt... and if you consume them, you are basically doing the same as meat... just saying...
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2009-10-27, 09:56 | Link #292 |
Inactive ex-WoW addict
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Age: 44
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I'm a meat eater, and don't see any moral issues with it. I do think that we have an obligation to ensure that the animals we raise for the purpose of making food are treated as humanely as possible though, which sadly doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it should.
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2009-10-27, 12:45 | Link #293 | |||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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@chikorita157:
Ah, but there is a morally relevant difference between a plant and a human, while there is none between an animal possessing a central nervous system and a human. That's my whole point. Also, it is far from proven that plants have actual emotions or experience any kind of pain. They just show some reactions that would allow you to draw that conclusion, but it's purely interpretation. Since they can't flee anyway, it would be pointless for them to be capable of feeling excessive pain or anxiety. Quote:
There is a lot of video material that can serve as proof, as well as the fact that some of the people who write about these things have a reputation to lose. Actually, the in my opinion most convincing philosopher who published a book about the rights of animals admits that he still very much misses meat - I don't think he just gave up on it for the heck of it. Also, he writes about how he fed his "pet" (it's really the wrong word in this case) fish instead of meat once he came to that particular moral conclusion, exactly because of the life chickens or pigs lead before they are killed. Quote:
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All I am trying to show is that there is no morally relevant difference between an animal and a human. Saying it's better to torture an animal than a human because it can not comprehend the situation fully doesn't work, since amongst humans, there are infants and small children, as well as people with brain conditions that have the same effect. Saying it's better because the animal dies sooner also doesn't work, since there are human who only have 1, 10 or 20 years left. Quote:
But just like you can't prove that not being rational reduces suffering, I can't prove that being rational does. It's pure speculation, and in the end, it doesn't really matter, since there would still be no morally relevant difference between animals and humans - only between animals and most humans. Quote:
A healthy human adult would be more bored in confinement, which can indeed easily cause additional suffering, but that's about all that is certain. Quote:
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I know you are part of The Conspiracy! ;P
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2009-10-27, 13:30 | Link #294 |
Senior Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 35
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I bumped into a moral subject of eating anything alive while reading Magic the gathering:Onslaught, in which case the Creator was all alone in the desert, and made a turtle with tender flesh, for the purpose of eating it-the creature itself wanted to be eaten. Still, he felt remorse, and gave the turtle razor-sharp teeth, claws and a strong shell, with which it claimed his left pinky before being brutally eaten without a second thought. While I probably won't be following the thread too much, feel free to discuss, hope I offered food for thought~
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2009-10-27, 13:33 | Link #295 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Boston
Age: 38
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I know this seems like a bad joke, but if animals stopped being so damn tasty and full of protein I wouldn't eat them. They don't have a choice in the matter though, and my vegetables don't seem to be as enjoyable to eat.
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2009-10-27, 14:18 | Link #296 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Then again, if the turtle wanted to be eaten, there's not much of a moral issue in killing it to me, since obviously, it has different interests than me. Maybe creating it itself could be seen as wrong... and I suppose what this Creator did afterwards was giving it some kind of "dignity" then. Anyway, causing something unnecessary suffering is always wrong to me, even if it has claws or a kitchen knife to defend itself. And yes, meat is tasty. But I think it's a given that if being moral was always easy, the world would be a much better place.
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2009-10-27, 14:22 | Link #297 | |||||||||||||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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I would ask the adult who should survive. If the adult person wants to be the surviver I take child, otherwise the adult. (Sounds cruel, but this way the one with the higher potential to be an ethically sound human survives). But I don't understand why this is important. We were talking about animals that suffer, not humans that have to die. Quote:
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I said there is an ethical dilemma when there is moderate suffering for the animal versus a healthy nutrition for humans. I don't support the extreme suffering of animals. Actually I would prefer if they did not suffer at all. But that is what makes it an ethical dilemma. What you try to say is, that I would value small children and people with certain brain conditions over animals. But I never said that. What I said is that a normal human would suffer more under the same treatment. And this leads fellow humans to assume they would know how the animals must feel. That however, doesn't justify unnecessary cruelty against animals. Quote:
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edit: Factory farming docs would be quiet absurd.
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2009-10-27, 14:36 | Link #298 |
blinded by blood
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From what's been posted so far I'm seeing that the difference between those who eat meat and those who voluntarily eschew meat for moral reasons seem to have a single difference. Those who eat meat see a moral difference between humans and those who eschew meat for moral reasons consider humans to be morally equivalent to any other animal.
I'm enlightened to finally understand, but now I am somewhat miffed to know that vegetarians consider me (and all other humans) to be no more important than a slug or a rat. D:
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2009-10-27, 15:01 | Link #299 |
Chicken or Beef?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle
Age: 41
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The only vegetables I eat are rice, bread and pasta... well I guess that classifies more as grains. And I'll have an occasional lettace. There are probably other vegetables, but its typically soaked in meat juices that you can't even tell
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2009-10-27, 15:05 | Link #300 | ||||||||||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Anyway, just looking at the regulations for factory farming should be proof enough. Quote:
If you want to do that, you have to show me at least some evidence so that I can take such a standpoint seriously. Quote:
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Higher potential? That sounds like Nietzsche, who believed the life of Goethe, for example, woudl be worth more than that of an average human, since Goethe had a lot of potential and made use of it. Personally, I'm glad this view isn't very popular in our society. However, in this case, I don't even see how the child has less "potential". Maybe you could explain that? Quote:
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For example, "women are different because they are women!" doesn't work, since it's not their fault that they were born as women, nor is there anything that makes them less capable of suffering. If you have a morally relevant difference between an animal and all humans, I'd be very interested, since philosopher have a very hard time coming up with one that can be defended. Quote:
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Edit: @synaesthetic: Slugs have a central nervous system? And this is not a rhetoric question. I never thought so, but I'm not an expert on slugs. xD However, obviously, there is a difference between you and a rat, or a rat and a dog. It's just that there is none I would consider morally relevant, since a rat can suffer just like a human being can. Oh, and vegetarians can have quite different views. What most of them have in common, though, is that they dislike causing suffering to other living beings, even if they aren't human, and even if they'd gain tasty (or not so tasty) meat from it.
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