Character Discussion - Shirley

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

This is sort of a cop out, though. "Oh, he never got the chance so nobody wins." Just because he never got the chance to express it doesn't mean the feelings weren't there.

This I can pretty much agree on. It may be a valid argument, but it's an argument that gets us nowhere.

I'll still disagree. Shirley would not be enough for that, nor would she try. I mean no disrespect by this, but at the time of her death, what she offered to be, on the surface, is essentially a sort of C.C./Kallen analog (moreso the former, probably) without the usefulness either provide. She would not go about trying to halt him in the middle of his war, nor would her presence alone be enough for him to think otherwise. Even after the betrayal, she'd be lost to him and he'd arrive at the same conclusion.

Hmm, can't say too much on this since I'm not a strong supporter of this claim and I'm not all that interested in this aspect anyway. But Lelouch has shown many times of weakness and emotional attachment, where he put his plans on hold or changed them for his loved ones. Maybe she wouldn't halt his plans, but I think she would be good emotional support and may even get him to see the lighter side of things over time (remember the "Power of Love" speech?)

Why would Shirley be the only one capable of such teaching? Just because she has such a strong and straightforward opinion on the matter? Shirley doesn't have other things to deal with, so she just focuses on the one thing, but that doesn't mean the others couldn't teach just as well.

I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but c'mon. C.C. who for most of the series was emotionally detached and wanted nothing more than to die? If anything, Lelouch taught her. And Kallen, the girl who's brother had died, who hated her parents, and who was desperately fighting for a fallen country and, until meeting Zero, was just waiting to go out in a blaze of fury? Again, if anything Lelouch taught her.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Hmm, can't say too much on this since I'm not a strong supporter of this claim and I'm not all that interested in this aspect anyway. But Lelouch has shown many times of weakness and emotional attachment, where he put his plans on hold or changed them for his loved ones. Maybe she wouldn't halt his plans, but I think she would be good emotional support and may even get him to see the lighter side of things over time (remember the "Power of Love" speech?)

He never changes completely, though, just works around the problem. In drastic circumstances, sure, he'll go off the rails completely, but otherwise he's pretty set in his path. She'd be good emotional support sure, but all that was worth saving he kept close. The world couldn't continue as it was, and it needed change. This wouldn't change for him.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but c'mon. C.C. who for most of the series was emotionally detached and wanted nothing more than to die? If anything, Lelouch taught her. And Kallen, the girl who's brother had died, who hated her parents, and who was desperately fighting for a fallen country and, until meeting Zero, was just waiting to go out in a blaze of fury? Again, if anything Lelouch taught her.

I'll give you C.C., but that's a unique case. Six centuries of torture and a Geass that made fake love would make anyone cynical. Kallen, on the other hand, he merely gave hope. He's not teaching her anything about love, rather she came to that point similar to how Shirley did, albeit under more hectic circumstances.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

This is sort of a cop out, though. "Oh, he never got the chance so nobody wins." Just because he never got the chance to express it doesn't mean the feelings weren't there.

It's not so much that Lelouch never got the chance though. Shirley died as a result of his own incompetence in managing Rolo (stemming, really, from Lelouch's hate for him), and he died himself (rejecting Kallen) as a result of his own need to make all his previous hate for the world meaningful. Lelouch walked (embraced) a path that continually lead away from love, so the only way he could have experienced it was if somebody dragged him onto another one.

I'll still disagree. Shirley would not be enough for that, nor would she try. I mean no disrespect by this, but at the time of her death, what she offered to be, on the surface, is essentially a sort of C.C./Kallen analog (moreso the former, probably) without the usefulness either provide. She would not go about trying to halt him in the middle of his war, nor would her presence alone be enough for him to think otherwise. Even after the betrayal, she'd be lost to him and he'd arrive at the same conclusion.

C.C. was going to try to get Nunally back? Was going to spearhead reconciliation with Suzaku? Shirley died too fast for me to have any other examples (hahaha *sob*), but you get the idea. Shirley's explicit purpose was to grant (return) Lelouch's happiness. Same role as C.C./Kallen my ass. I'm not going to bother debating whether she could actually succeed or not, 'cause she never got the chance, and it would be endless (pointless). It's a fact though that Shirley's death set the tone for the second half of the season, and I'm sure we'd have gotten a wholly different show had she survived (Shirley would have served a different narrative purpose). Back to your point though: even if it were a given that Shirley wouldn't have managed to pull it off, 'she lacked the ability, but had the right idea' is still better than 'she had no idea until it was too late' or, worse lol, 'she was too self-absorbed to care'.

Why would Shirley be the only one capable of such teaching? Just because she has such a strong and straightforward opinion on the matter? Shirley doesn't have other things to deal with, so she just focuses on the one thing, but that doesn't mean the others couldn't teach just as well.

:P That Shirley wasn't diluted with other purposes isn't her fault, it's the writers'. :P You can kinda look at it this way. The reason Shirley failed to reach Lelouch was because she died. Not her own fault; as a result of it, we can debate the 'what could have beens' had she actually lived to accomplish something. 'Others', well, they were there to the end. They watched him die, accepted his 'gift', and moved on. That they failed to change him, that they failed to even try to change him (in the manner I'm talking about) we know for certain. At the very base level, this is why Shirley was the only possibility.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He never changes completely, though, just works around the problem. In drastic circumstances, sure, he'll go off the rails completely, but otherwise he's pretty set in his path. She'd be good emotional support sure, but all that was worth saving he kept close. The world couldn't continue as it was, and it needed change. This wouldn't change for him.

Well, as Sol has pointed out, we don't know what kind of impact Shirley could have had. It would have been no easy task to be sure, but I think Shirley could have helped him change the world, just maybe change it in a better way. Problem with her was that she always kept getting pushed away or, you know, getting killed before she could do anything. Just as her poem says Lelouch kept slipping through her hands like glass (paraphrasing)

I'll give you C.C., but that's a unique case. Six centuries of torture and a Geass that made fake love would make anyone cynical. Kallen, on the other hand, he merely gave hope. He's not teaching her anything about love, rather she came to that point similar to how Shirley did, albeit under more hectic circumstances.

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to say tha Lelouch taught C.C. and Kallen to love (though I guess he did teach C.C. that a little bit) I mean to say that, if anything, Kallen and C.C. were the ones in need of being taught something (not necessarily love, but something) and that Lelouch was the one that taught them or enlightened them to it.

[Ekul]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Lelouch walked (embraced) a path that continually lead away from love, so the only way he could have experienced it was if somebody dragged him onto another one.

True. I suppose he's too cynical to believe that love could ever do anything tangible for him. He probably realized that the fewer people he cared about, the easier it would be to get to his goal. His reactions to the endangerment of Shirley, Kallen and Nunnally make that much clear. It seems that when he actually cares about someone, he cares about them way too much for his plans.

So maybe he has the right idea.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It's not so much that Lelouch never got the chance though. Shirley died as a result of his own incompetence in managing Rolo (stemming, really, from Lelouch's hate for him), and he died himself (rejecting Kallen) as a result of his own need to make all his previous hate for the world meaningful. Lelouch walked (embraced) a path that continually lead away from love, so the only way he could have experienced it was if somebody dragged him onto another one.

Just because the path led away from companionship doesn't mean he never loved. He just didn't embrace that love.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

C.C. was going to try to get Nunally back? Was going to spearhead reconciliation with Suzaku? Shirley died too fast for me to have any other examples (hahaha *sob*), but you get the idea. Shirley's explicit purpose was to grant (return) Lelouch's happiness. Same role as C.C./Kallen my ass. I'm not going to bother debating whether she could actually succeed or not, 'cause she never got the chance, and it would be endless (pointless). It's a fact though that Shirley's death set the tone for the second half of the season, and I'm sure we'd have gotten a wholly different show had she survived (Shirley would have served a different narrative purpose). Back to your point though: even if it were a given that Shirley wouldn't have managed to pull it off, 'she lacked the ability, but had the right idea' is still better than 'she had no idea until it was too late' or, worse lol, 'she was too self-absorbed to care'.

Perhaps that was too general a comparison. Since you bring it up, Shirley was going to get Nunnally back? What would she do? She's not a pilot, not a soldier, not much of anything beyond a student. She wouldn't be helping in that regard. Reconciling with Suzaku, maybe, but he didn't seem too sold on the idea and she doesn't know enough, nor could she reveal enough, to make significant progress. However, since you don't want to argue that point, I'll leave it there.

Shirley defined her purpose as being the one thing true to Lelouch, but from her limited experience she knows nothing of C.C. or Kallen, both of whom know he is Zero. The "returning/granting his happiness" would involve getting Nunnally back, again something she'd not be much help in doing, and since he has others who know him just as well (arguably better), then her contribution in that regard wouldn't be as significant as she thought it was.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

:P That Shirley wasn't diluted with other purposes isn't her fault, it's the writers'. :P You can kinda look at it this way. The reason Shirley failed to reach Lelouch was because she died. Not her own fault; as a result of it, we can debate the 'what could have beens' had she actually lived to accomplish something. 'Others', well, they were there to the end. They watched him die, accepted his 'gift', and moved on. That they failed to change him, that they failed to even try to change him (in the manner I'm talking about) we know for certain. At the very base level, this is why Shirley was the only possibility.

Shirley only wanted to change Lelouch when she saw him as something he wasn't, and to a lesser extent by her desire to make him love her. C.C. and Kallen, on the other hand, understood that Lelouch had something he needed to do, at various points. When it came to the end, neither C.C. or Kallen could change him, because he had something he needed to do. Kallen couldn't because she was on the wrong side to do it and he wouldn't let her close. C.C. tried, but she lets Lelouch do what he needs to.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, as Sol has pointed out, we don't know what kind of impact Shirley could have had. It would have been no easy task to be sure, but I think Shirley could have helped him change the world, just maybe change it in a better way. Problem with her was that she always kept getting pushed away or, you know, getting killed before she could do anything. Just as her poem says Lelouch kept slipping through her hands like glass (paraphrasing)

Yeah, that poem is rather accurate in that regard. I'm not sure what Shirley could have done that could change the outcome that much, the ramifications of her death notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I should have been more clear. I didn't mean to say tha Lelouch taught C.C. and Kallen to love (though I guess he did teach C.C. that a little bit) I mean to say that, if anything, Kallen and C.C. were the ones in need of being taught something (not necessarily love, but something) and that Lelouch was the one that taught them or enlightened them to it.

I'll agree on that point, but then this comes down to situation. Shirley was a sheltered girl by comparison.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Just because the path led away from companionship doesn't mean he never loved. He just didn't embrace that love.

We can debate on that technicality, but I don't really see why it matters. Lelouch rejected love, so whether he felt it or not, love in and of itself would not have been enough to forge a relationship.

Perhaps that was too general a comparison. Since you bring it up, Shirley was going to get Nunnally back? What would she do? She's not a pilot, not a soldier, not much of anything beyond a student. She wouldn't be helping in that regard. Reconciling with Suzaku, maybe, but he didn't seem too sold on the idea and she doesn't know enough, nor could she reveal enough, to make significant progress. However, since you don't want to argue that point, I'll leave it there.

Shirley defined her purpose as being the one thing true to Lelouch, but from her limited experience she knows nothing of C.C. or Kallen, both of whom know he is Zero. The "returning/granting his happiness" would involve getting Nunnally back, again something she'd not be much help in doing, and since he has others who know him just as well (arguably better), then her contribution in that regard wouldn't be as significant as she thought it was.

The first step towards returning Lelouch's happiness is getting him to believe in it himself. When you're talking about being 'true' to Lelouch, you have to make a distinction between Shirley, who wanted the best for him no matter his own feelings on the matter, and Kallen and C.C., who were true only in the sense that they would do what he wanted.

You are totally dragging this off-point. Shirley was someone who could have made love fit into Lelouch's life, in terms of his goals and motivations. Shirley's 'power' lies in her potential to change Lelouch's perspective, not the degree to which she can be 'useful' to him.

Shirley only wanted to change Lelouch when she saw him as something he wasn't, and to a lesser extent by her desire to make him love her. C.C. and Kallen, on the other hand, understood that Lelouch had something he needed to do, at various points. When it came to the end, neither C.C. or Kallen could change him, because he had something he needed to do. Kallen couldn't because she was on the wrong side to do it and he wouldn't let her close. C.C. tried, but she lets Lelouch do what he needs to.

You'll have to explain what you mean by what Lelouch 'wasn't'. Shirley was never against Lelouch changing the world. She merely wanted to help him do it in a way that made him happy.

...Shirley was a sheltered girl by comparison.

Having experienced Mao alone is enough for me to call 'bullshit'. Shirley had something to teach Lelouch, and it wasn't some idealized fantasy of a sheltered schoolgirl. Shirley had to persevere through enough shit to get to what she believed in, I honestly can't see how what Shirley went through was any less difficult than for the other two. She's tragic heroine number one in Code Geass for chrissakes, nobody was beat down like they did on her.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

We can debate on that technicality, but I don't really see why it matters. Lelouch rejected love, so whether he felt it or not, love in and of itself would not have been enough to forge a relationship.

Fine. I suppose on this point alone I have to agree.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The first step towards returning Lelouch's happiness is getting him to believe in it himself. When you're talking about being 'true' to Lelouch, you have to make a distinction between Shirley, who wanted the best for him no matter his own feelings on the matter, and Kallen and C.C., who were true only in the sense that they would do what he wanted.

You are totally dragging this off-point. Shirley was someone who could have made love fit into Lelouch's life, in terms of his goals and motivations. Shirley's 'power' lies in her potential to change Lelouch's perspective, not the degree to which she can be 'useful' to him.

If we're to base it on her potential to change Lelouch, then I would still not consider Shirley the only possibility, because she knows very little about his true self whereas the others do. She doesn't really understand why he's doing these things, only that he probably has a good reason for them. Thus, changing his perspective would have to come after getting the whole story, and I doubt Lelouch would be swayed from his path by her.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You'll have to explain what you mean by what Lelouch 'wasn't'. Shirley was never against Lelouch changing the world. She merely wanted to help him do it in a way that made him happy.

I meant before she regained her memories and say Sayoko!Lelouch portraying him as a womanizer. Once she regains her memories that whole "changing him" business evaporates and she's simply committed to being truthful to him/helping reunite him with Nunnally, the base things which she perceives would make him happy.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Having experienced Mao alone is enough for me to call 'bullshit'. Shirley had something to teach Lelouch, and it wasn't some idealized fantasy of a sheltered schoolgirl. Shirley had to persevere through enough shit to get to what she believed in, I honestly can't see how what Shirley went through was any less difficult than for the other two. She's tragic heroine number one in Code Geass for chrissakes, nobody was beat down like they did on her.

I said by comparison. Sure she's dealt with some shit, but it's hardly comparable to what the others have gone through. She really only has the two major moments: Mao in the first season and the memory return in the second. I don't include her father because the loss itself is sort of tied to those main two. Despite dealing with those incidents, Shirley lives the normal life a student most of the time, and even when she's not the shit she goes through is hardly worse than what the others girls have.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If we're to base it on her potential to change Lelouch, then I would still not consider Shirley the only possibility, because she knows very little about his true self whereas the others do. She doesn't really understand why he's doing these things, only that he probably has a good reason for them. Thus, changing his perspective would have to come after getting the whole story, and I doubt Lelouch would be swayed from his path by her.

Actually, the great majority of Shirley's development involved her changing Lelouch without even being aware of it. Stage 14 and Turn 7 were both essentially about Lelouch realizing the value of what he had (in the context of my argument: that the world hadn't totally denied him; that to a degree he had denied himself), and by Turn 7 Lelouch had already made a reunion at Ashford one of his central goals. Rather than Shirley failing to pull Lelouch onto her path, you can almost say it was rather her death which undid all of his progress, leading him to just about abandon that dream entirely and pushing him further into hate, destruction, and vengeance.

I meant before she regained her memories and say Sayoko!Lelouch portraying him as a womanizer. Once she regains her memories that whole "changing him" business evaporates and she's simply committed to being truthful to him/helping reunite him with Nunnally, the base things which she perceives would make him happy.

Shirley's desire to change Lelouch dates as far back as her character introduction, where Shirley complained about Lelouch having "brains, but the way he uses them is weird" (i.e. spending his spare time gambling and not paying attention to his studies). At the point she regained her memories, however, Shirley didn't need to change Lelouch (in the sense of convincing him to care for his own happiness), because she had already percieved (from Lelouch throwing himself off a building to save her) that Lelouch did value the things that had been close to him. This event actually was what convinced her that the Lelouch she loved wasn't a mask and demonstrated that having his important people with him was what he considered happiness.

Of course, Lelouch still nominally operated under the "push away what you hold dear" policy occasionally (damn the witch for that, really; terrible, self-serving advice), so there was still a job for the fully cognizant Shirley to do. By the point of just before her death, however, Shirley had in essence already won over his heart.

I said by comparison. Sure she's dealt with some shit, but it's hardly comparable to what the others have gone through. She really only has the two major moments: Mao in the first season and the memory return in the second. I don't include her father because the loss itself is sort of tied to those main two. Despite dealing with those incidents, Shirley lives the normal life a student most of the time, and even when she's not the shit she goes through is hardly worse than what the others girls have.

I disagree (Kallen may have had to work harder, and C.C. may have had to deal with disappearing memories, but in terms of moments of pure pain and suffering, theirs don't really exceed Shirley's in frequency or intensity), but let's step back a moment. First, I'm going to have to ask how Shirley's 'shelteredness' is even relevant (and on that note, actually, sorry. This was actually yours and Nobodyman's argument and I don't want to get into a debate as general as "why Shirley gave but C.C. and Kallen recieved". Now that we've dug a little deeper, diving into C.C. and Kallen's histories and what Lelouch gave them specifically would just lead me into walls-of-text wars, so I'm gonna pull back on that aspect of the argument.).

[azul120]

Not to mention, of course, the "Love is power!" moment near the end of Turn 11 that inspires him to communicate to Tianzi and everyone else the importance of personal feelings in what they are living and fighting for.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, the great majority of Shirley's development involved her changing Lelouch without even being aware of it. Stage 14 and Turn 7 were both essentially about Lelouch realizing the value of what he had (in the context of my argument: that the world hadn't totally denied him; that to a degree he had denied himself), and by Turn 7 Lelouch had already made a reunion at Ashford one of his central goals. Rather than Shirley failing to pull Lelouch onto her path, you can almost say it was rather her death which undid all of his progress, leading him to just about abandon that dream entirely and pushing him further into hate, destruction, and vengeance.

Add azul's note about Turn 11 to that list, but Turn 7 was not entirely Shirley. Kallen is the one who planted that idea, Shirley reinforced it after Rolo tried to undo Kallen's progress.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Shirley's desire to change Lelouch dates as far back as her character introduction, where Shirley complained about Lelouch having "brains, but the way he uses them is weird" (i.e. spending his spare time gambling and not paying attention to his studies). At the point she regained her memories, however, Shirley didn't need to change Lelouch (in the sense of convincing him to care for his own happiness), because she had already percieved (from Lelouch throwing himself off a building to save her) that Lelouch did value the things that had been close to him. This event actually was what convinced her that the Lelouch she loved wasn't a mask and demonstrated that having his important people with him was what he considered happiness.

I won't disagree on any particular point here.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Of course, Lelouch still nominally operated under the "push away what you hold dear" policy occasionally (damn the witch for that, really; terrible, self-serving advice), so there was still a job for the fully cognizant Shirley to do. By the point of just before her death, however, Shirley had in essence already won over his heart.

When you're a revolutionary, it's also rather prudent advice, as Shirley experienced first hand. The last part, I simply do not buy. She hadn't won anything. Made some progress, sure, but certainly not out and out victory.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I disagree (Kallen may have had to work harder, and C.C. may have had to deal with disappearing memories, but in terms of moments of pure pain and suffering, theirs don't really exceed Shirley's in frequency or intensity), but let's step back a moment. First, I'm going to have to ask how Shirley's 'shelteredness' is even relevant (and on that note, actually, sorry. This was actually yours and Nobodyman's argument and I don't want to get into a debate as general as "why Shirley gave but C.C. and Kallen recieved". Now that we've dug a little deeper, diving into C.C. and Kallen's histories and what Lelouch gave them specifically would just lead me into walls-of-text wars, so I'm gonna pull back on that aspect of the argument.).

To put it simply, her being sheltered would be a detriment to her trying to provide help. Even though she experienced hardships as has been mentioned, I could easily see her being too kind when it comes to Lelouch's plans. She'd be the type to insist on better ways of doing pretty much everything, and while in certain cases she may be right, overall it'd be a hindrance to Lelouch's goals. In other words, to be what she wanted to be to him, something truthful, she'd have to push aside most of her misgivings about what he was doing.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Add azul's note about Turn 11 to that list, but Turn 7 was not entirely Shirley. Kallen is the one who planted that idea, Shirley reinforced it after Rolo tried to undo Kallen's progress.

Kallen tried to make Lelouch remember Zero, while Rolo tried to make him forget. These things aren't directly related to Lelouch's personal happiness (actually, Rolo's would be more in line, if it weren't for the whole 'forget Nunally' thing). In Turn 7, only Shirley really did any work with regards to giving Lelouch a dream of his own.

I won't disagree on any particular point here.

Cool.

When you're a revolutionary, it's also rather prudent advice, as Shirley experienced first hand. The last part, I simply do not buy. She hadn't won anything. Made some progress, sure, but certainly not out and out victory.

Indeed, that was basically my point. When the world is your enemy, when you intend to make the world your enemy, then keeping away those you care for for their own safety only makes sense. However, the world was never really Lelouch's enemy up until Zero Requiem, and at the time that C.C. suggested this piece to him, he had hardly any real enemies at all.

With regards to the 'she had already won over his heart' comment. lol. With regards to the romantic implications of that phrase, I understand that is debatable. My point though with that comment was that while Lelouch may have operated with an intellectual understanding of the benefits of keeping those close to him away, emotionally (and effectively) Lelouch had already been converted to the task of keeping them close to him (as per Shirley's desire and intention).

To put it simply, her being sheltered would be a detriment to her trying to provide help. Even though she experienced hardships as has been mentioned, I could easily see her being too kind when it comes to Lelouch's plans. She'd be the type to insist on better ways of doing pretty much everything, and while in certain cases she may be right, overall it'd be a hindrance to Lelouch's goals. In other words, to be what she wanted to be to him, something truthful, she'd have to push aside most of her misgivings about what he was doing.

I don't think Shirley would have gotten too involved in the practical details of anything. The main places where Shirley would have interfered would have been on issues of emotional insight which Lelouch lacked (per the 'love is power' example). She would also have helped Lelouch deal with his own emotional turmoil in a more calm and rational manner (i.e. massecreing the Geass Cult, trying to blow up Rolo, saying he 'no longer trusts anybody' and wanting Kallen to kill Suzaku in response to the whole mess over Tokyo). Shirley would only have tried to stem Lelouch's destruction spurred by negative feelings. Destruction in the sense of selective clearing out for the purposes of reconstruction, Shirley would have had no reason to interfere with.

What kinds of misgivings are you talking about, specifically? I kinda trust Shirley's moral compass more than Lelouch's, if you know what I mean. Stuff like blowing up a shipful of helpless allies in order to ambush his enemies I really think Lelouch could have done without.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Kallen tried to make Lelouch remember Zero, while Rolo tried to make him forget. These things aren't directly related to Lelouch's personal happiness (actually, Rolo's would be more in line, if it weren't for the whole 'forget Nunally' thing). In Turn 7, only Shirley really did any work with regards to giving Lelouch a dream of his own.

She didn't just try to make him remember Zero, she tried to give him hope that Nunnally could still be saved. More to the point, she reminded him that his war didn't just involve him, which he himself repeats after Shirley reinforces the idea. Shirley is not doing all the work, only picking up where Kallen left off after Rolo tried to screw things up. Lelouch was already going to run after Kallen when Rolo stepped in, so to claim she did nothing is simply incorrect.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Indeed, that was basically my point. When the world is your enemy, when you intend to make the world your enemy, then keeping away those you care for for their own safety only makes sense. However, the world was never really Lelouch's enemy up until Zero Requiem, and at the time that C.C. suggested this piece to him, he had hardly any real enemies at all.

The world was Lelouch's enemy even before ZR, because Britannia as it was needed to go. It couldn't just be left to its own devices, because it would expand and expand until nowhere was safe.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

With regards to the 'she had already won over his heart' comment. lol. With regards to the romantic implications of that phrase, I understand that is debatable. My point though with that comment was that while Lelouch may have operated with an intellectual understanding of the benefits of keeping those close to him away, emotionally (and effectively) Lelouch had already been converted to the task of keeping them close to him (as per Shirley's desire and intention).

I don't think so. He didn't keep people close, he kept them safe.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't think Shirley would have gotten too involved in the practical details of anything. The main places where Shirley would have interfered would have been on issues of emotional insight which Lelouch lacked (per the 'love is power' example). She would also have helped Lelouch deal with his own emotional turmoil in a more calm and rational manner (i.e. massecreing the Geass Cult, trying to blow up Rolo, saying he 'no longer trusts anybody' and wanting Kallen to kill Suzaku in response to the whole mess over Tokyo). Shirley would only have tried to stem Lelouch's destruction spurred by negative feelings. Destruction in the sense of selective clearing out for the purposes of reconstruction, Shirley would have had no reason to interfere with.

The Geass Cult would never have happened if not for her death, but even so I doubt she would have talked him out of taking it over. Likewise for Rolo, but I'm sure Lelouch would have dealt with him in the same manner. Shirley would never have had the opportunity to influence him in Turn 17/18. On your last general point, I will agree that she would have tried, and probably succeeded.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What kinds of misgivings are you talking about, specifically? I kinda trust Shirley's moral compass more than Lelouch's, if you know what I mean. Stuff like blowing up a shipful of helpless allies in order to ambush his enemies I really think Lelouch could have done without.

Well obviously her compass points closer to north than his does, but that's not necessarily a good thing. How on board with attacking Tokyo do you think she'd be? A lack of moral fiber is a benefit in Lelouch's line of work, as well as a curse.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

She didn't just try to make him remember Zero, she tried to give him hope that Nunnally could still be saved. More to the point, she reminded him that his war didn't just involve him, which he himself repeats after Shirley reinforces the idea. Shirley is not doing all the work, only picking up where Kallen left off after Rolo tried to screw things up. Lelouch was already going to run after Kallen when Rolo stepped in, so to claim she did nothing is simply incorrect.

That Lelouch walked his path for more than himself is besides the point. That just gives him all the more reason to grant others happiness at the cost of his own. Shirley was, as I said, the one responsible for giving Lelouch a personal dream.

The world was Lelouch's enemy even before ZR, because Britannia as it was needed to go. It couldn't just be left to its own devices, because it would expand and expand until nowhere was safe.

Britannia != the world. And even so, Euphie and Suzaku were working towards internal reform; Clovis, Cornelia, and (maybe) Schniezel still held Lelouch/Nunally in regard and cared for them. Even Charles (+ Marianne, + Bismark) didn't really support Britannia's competition based policies, they'd merely given up hope of reaching through the masks of humans. Lelouch didn't have to become their enemy. He could have joined them to try to make something better. Revolution was a choice Lelouch made motivated by revenge, and C.C. encouraged it, despite knowing it was meaningless, because it meant she might have a chance to die.

I don't think so. He didn't keep people close, he kept them safe.

First off, again, the fireworks dream is explicitly about being together with them. Second, take Lelouch's words in Turn 11 and Turn 19. When Lelouch talks about things being 'taken' from him and 'losing' them, he doesn't refer exclusively to death but more generally to separation. For Lelouch, happiness meant actually being together; 'safety' meant only hope for future happiness.

The Geass Cult would never have happened if not for her death, but even so I doubt she would have talked him out of taking it over. Likewise for Rolo, but I'm sure Lelouch would have dealt with him in the same manner. Shirley would never have had the opportunity to influence him in Turn 17/18. On your last general point, I will agree that she would have tried, and probably succeeded.

Well obviously her compass points closer to north than his does, but that's not necessarily a good thing. How on board with attacking Tokyo do you think she'd be? A lack of moral fiber is a benefit in Lelouch's line of work, as well as a curse.

Why would Shirley have needed to talk Lelouch out of taking the Geass Cult over? Or of attempting to acquire Tokyo, so long as civilians wouldn't be caught in the crossfire? Shirley wasn't a pacifist or Britannian loyalist, and she wasnt' bound by a knight's honour either. She just believed that the things you have are worth keeping, and that the things you've lost are worth getting back (to the extent that both are still possible, of course).

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

That Lelouch walked his path for more than himself is besides the point. That just gives him all the more reason to grant others happiness at the cost of his own. Shirley was, as I said, the one responsible for giving Lelouch a personal dream.

But isn't that what he wished for anyway, to simply live a normal life after everything was said and done? The specifics aside, it was what he was aiming for in general. I'll concede that she gave him a personal wish, but that's it. It is not her efforts alone that lead to that point.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Britannia != the world. And even so, Euphie and Suzaku were working towards internal reform; Clovis, Cornelia, and (maybe) Schniezel still held Lelouch/Nunally in regard and cared for them. Even Charles (+ Marianne, + Bismark) didn't really support Britannia's competition based policies, they'd merely given up hope of reaching through the masks of humans. Lelouch didn't have to become their enemy. He could have joined them to try to make something better. Revolution was a choice Lelouch made motivated by revenge, and C.C. encouraged it, despite knowing it was meaningless, because it meant she might have a chance to die.

No, it does not equal the world, just more than half of it and counting. Euphie and Suzaku were naive fools, and at the time it's harder to argue which is more so. Charles may not have held those beliefs, but he preached them, constantly. Lelouch and Nunnally had no hope in that system, especially with the higher ups like Schneizel and Cornelia perfectly willing to maintain the status quo. All of this, in addition, does nothing to help all the people conquered by Britannia.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

First off, again, the fireworks dream is explicitly about being together with them. Second, take Lelouch's words in Turn 11 and Turn 19. When Lelouch talks about things being 'taken' from him and 'losing' them, he doesn't refer exclusively to death but more generally to separation. For Lelouch, happiness meant actually being together; 'safety' meant only hope for future happiness.

Yes, it's about togetherness, but that's at a point when his work is done and he wouldn't have to worry. Before that, he keeps people at arms' length. even if he's not talking about death, it's more than mere separation. It's having something taken which he cannot readily get back. It's not like having someone at school he can see when he wants, it's having the things he cares for taken by people who will do them harm.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Why would Shirley have needed to talk Lelouch out of taking the Geass Cult over? Or of attempting to acquire Tokyo, so long as civilians wouldn't be caught in the crossfire? Shirley wasn't a pacifist or Britannian loyalist, and she wasnt' bound by a knight's honour either. She just believed that the things you have are worth keeping, and that the things you've lost are worth getting back (to the extent that both are still possible, of course).

To the first point, that came out weird. I meant Shirley wouldn't have tried. As for Tokyo, civilians most assuredly would be caught in the crossfire. There was no evacuation. They didn't know the attack was coming. That was the point. That's why the death toll was so high. People were stranded over an active battlefield. Of this, I do not think Shirley would approve.

Shirley may not have been a pacifist, but having experienced her father's death as a result of war, I doubt she'd be fine with similar endangering of civilians.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But isn't that what he wished for anyway, to simply live a normal life after everything was said and done? The specifics aside, it was what he was aiming for in general. I'll concede that she gave him a personal wish, but that's it. It is not her efforts alone that lead to that point.

You seem to be talking about a different 'point' here. I'm not talking about Lelouch's willingness to fight, I'm talking about the degree to which Lelouch valued his own life and happiness, a necessary prerequisite for him to have a relationship.

In the beginning, Lelouch didn't care about his normal life: as he said in Stage 7, he likened it to being dead. It was Shirley who taught him that it had value (Stage 14), and Shirley who lead him to expressly desire to return to it (Turn 7).

No, it does not equal the world, just more than half of it and counting. Euphie and Suzaku were naive fools, and at the time it's harder to argue which is more so. Charles may not have held those beliefs, but he preached them, constantly. Lelouch and Nunnally had no hope in that system, especially with the higher ups like Schneizel and Cornelia perfectly willing to maintain the status quo. All of this, in addition, does nothing to help all the people conquered by Britannia.

Your comments on Euphie and Suzaku have no objective standing, and, I now realize, no relevance to this conversation (my comment either). I'd die laughing before I considered 'all the people conquered by Britannia' part of Lelouch's motivation: Lelouch wasn't fighting for the sake of some vapid justice, he was doing it for revenge and to create a gentle world for Nunally.

As for the system, why wouldn't Lelouch and Nunally have had any hope in it? My point in bringing up Schniezel and Cornelia was that they would have supported them had they actually chosen to join it. If we actually take a look at things, Marianne/Lelouch/Nunally's only 'political' enemy in the entire series was V.V.; most of the royal family adored her/them, and no one had the power to actually kill them. If anyone were actually interested in eliminating/manipulating them for their own interests, Nunally would have been devoured when she was made Governor General: after all, she was even blind/crippled now, with less political backing than her mother ever had, and no one ever knew she was being kept as Charles' 'hostage' ( yeah right).

Yes, it's about togetherness, but that's at a point when his work is done and he wouldn't have to worry. Before that, he keeps people at arms' length. even if he's not talking about death, it's more than mere separation. It's having something taken which he cannot readily get back. It's not like having someone at school he can see when he wants, it's having the things he cares for taken by people who will do them harm.

Yes, separation means they are not readily retrievable. How does this contradict my point? Lelouch wanted to 'have' his important people. He didn't want to 'lose' them or have them 'taken' away. This contradicts C.C.'s advice of pushing away those dear to him, and shows that Lelouch cared about and was pursuing his personal happiness. In that sense, Shirley had already won Lelouch's heart onto her side by Turn 13 (the side of caring about Lelouch's happiness).

To the first point, that came out weird. I meant Shirley wouldn't have tried. As for Tokyo, civilians most assuredly would be caught in the crossfire. There was no evacuation. They didn't know the attack was coming. That was the point. That's why the death toll was so high. People were stranded over an active battlefield. Of this, I do not think Shirley would approve.

Shirley may not have been a pacifist, but having experienced her father's death as a result of war, I doubt she'd be fine with similar endangering of civilians.

...I think the reason the death toll was so high was the use of Fleia. :P lol. Aside from that, we've got some Knightmare frames crashing into buildings at night, and...that's about it. Ground battles weren't happening due to Gefjun, so everything was fairly out of the way.

Of course, one thing Shirley would have disapproved of was Lelouch's complete disregard for Suzaku's warning. Not that she wouldn't have chewed Suzaku out for his heavyhanded ultimatum either. So maybe Fleija wouldn't have happened. I don't want to debate the hypotheticality of her actually being there (though I do think that, at the very least, Shirley would have accompanied Lelouch on his initial reunion with Suzaku, so there would have been a possibility of her showing up somewhere (in Shinkurou even)), but the point is that Shirley was about valuing the things which were good to him (i.e. friends, allies, his moral aversion to injuring helpless civilians (maybe )), not getting in the way of changing something bad.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You seem to be talking about a different 'point' here. I'm not talking about Lelouch's willingness to fight, I'm talking about the degree to which Lelouch valued his own life and happiness, a necessary prerequisite for him to have a relationship.

In the beginning, Lelouch didn't care about his normal life: as he said in Stage 7, he likened it to being dead. It was Shirley who taught him that it had value (Stage 14), and Shirley who lead him to expressly desire to return to it (Turn 7).

He compared his time without power to being dead. When he had power, had the ability to change his fate, then life became more than being a walking corpse. Obvoiusly Nunnally wouldn't have a very happy world with him dead (at least until ZR was conceived).

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Your comments on Euphie and Suzaku have no objective standing, and, I now realize, no relevance to this conversation (my comment either). I'd die laughing before I considered 'all the people conquered by Britannia' part of Lelouch's motivation: Lelouch wasn't fighting for the sake of some vapid justice, he was doing it for revenge and to create a gentle world for Nunally.

I have plenty of objective standing for those two being naive, but, as you say, it's hardly relevant. Anyway, the collective peoples of the world weren't a concern at first, not directly anyway. However, Lelouch does fight for them. He doesn't condone how Britannia treats them, and makes a point of it repeatedly.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As for the system, why wouldn't Lelouch and Nunally have had any hope in it? My point in bringing up Schniezel and Cornelia was that they would have supported them had they actually chosen to join it. If we actually take a look at things, Marianne/Lelouch/Nunally's only 'political' enemy in the entire series was V.V.; most of the royal family adored her/them, and no one had the power to actually kill them. If anyone were actually interested in eliminating/manipulating them for their own interests, Nunally would have been devoured when she was made Governor General: after all, she was even blind/crippled now, with less political backing than her mother ever had, and no one ever knew she was being kept as Charles' 'hostage' ( yeah right).

So much ital. Not to make fun or anything, just saying.

How far would Schneizel and Cornelia really have supported them? Cornelia wasn't even that supporting to her own sister, and makes it quite clear she endorses how Britannia treats people, which Lelouch and Nunnally do not agree with. Schneizel's an enabler, but only insofar as it doesn't infringe on the interests of others. He endorsed the SAZ, but he's pretty clear on the fact that he does not treat it as reform. He treats it as a means to undermine the Black Knights and make peace.

As for what troubles they would face, let's take the example of Nunnally, Charles really had no reason to grant her request, and if it weren't for her use as leverage against Lelouch probably wouldn't have allowed her to take up the position of Viceroy. Even then he was ready to snatch her away at a moment's notice. Ignoring that, you have Lomeyer, undeniable bitch that she is, ready to subvert Nunnally at a moment's notice and making decisions on her own. This is all in a fairly harmless position, too.

Lelouch, who would no doubt have even bigger aspirations, would have no hope whatsoever of affecting the change he desired, having given up his right to the throne.

It occurs to me this has very little to do with Shirley, so to swing it back to your original point about showing him the world isn't his enemy, it would be fundamentally impossible to convince him of such. The world was wrong, and that's not even counting the crazy shit Charles and Schneizel pulled. For him to be even remotely convinced he would have to accept Britannia's constant expansionism as a fact of life, and that is something Lelouch would never do.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes, separation means they are not readily retrievable. How does this contradict my point? Lelouch wanted to 'have' his important people. He didn't want to 'lose' them or have them 'taken' away. This contradicts C.C.'s advice of pushing away those dear to him, and shows that Lelouch cared about and was pursuing his personal happiness. In that sense, Shirley had already won Lelouch's heart onto her side by Turn 13 (the side of caring about Lelouch's happiness).

Because you're trying to compare incarnation (Kallen) and having Nunnally quite literally kidnapped to willfully pushing people away. This is entirely different.He ascribed to the philosophy insomuch as he kept his loved ones at arms length. He can't be like Charles and throw them into another country.

I still do not get how you've come up with her winning Lelouch's heart. It confounds me. At best, she forced a concession out of him through persistence and circumstance in Turn 12, and he already cared about being happy well before the firework dream came about.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

...I think the reason the death toll was so high was the use of Fleia. :P lol. Aside from that, we've got some Knightmare frames crashing into buildings at night, and...that's about it. Ground battles weren't happening due to Gefjun, so everything was fairly out of the way.

Not according to Milly, who was running her ass off to escape the stray ordnance. Or how about Anya, with her Stark Hadron Cannon split into four directions and carving a whole bunch of news roads every which way. Tamaki was firing from the ground against Luciano, too. Then there's all the Knightmare parts crashing, all the bullets missing that would surely have hit something, etc. Tokyo was in the crossfire and paying for it. Even worse, the G-Trains probably weren't empty when the Britannians starting blowing them up.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Of course, one thing Shirley would have disapproved of was Lelouch's complete disregard for Suzaku's warning. Not that she wouldn't have chewed Suzaku out for his heavyhanded ultimatum either. So maybe Fleija wouldn't have happened. I don't want to debate the hypotheticality of her actually being there (though I do think that, at the very least, Shirley would have accompanied Lelouch on his initial reunion with Suzaku, so there would have been a possibility of her showing up somewhere (in Shinkurou even)), but the point is that Shirley was about valuing the things which were good to him (i.e. friends, allies, his moral aversion to injuring helpless civilians (maybe )), not getting in the way of changing something bad.

Not like she would have known. Fleija would have happened, if not by Suzaku then by Anya or whoever when they got tired of Suzaku's stubbornness and sent someone to do the job right.

But, back to the point, Shirley wouldn't have accompanied Lelouch. Suzaku said to come alone, and Lelouch wouldn't break that promise. Nor would he even bring her near for that matter, in case things went south, which they did. She'd have stayed behind.

Fair enough on the last point, but even this wouldn't have much effect on the meeting. At best it would only serve to prove Shirley wrong.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He compared his time without power to being dead. When he had power, had the ability to change his fate, then life became more than being a walking corpse. Obvoiusly Nunnally wouldn't have a very happy world with him dead (at least until ZR was conceived).

Not quite sure what your point is here. Lelouch obtained the power to change his 'fate' only to want to return to it? This doesn't change the fact that Shirley helped him realize that his 'fate' wasn't so terrible after all.

I have plenty of objective standing for those two being naive, but, as you say, it's hardly relevant. Anyway, the collective peoples of the world weren't a concern at first, not directly anyway. However, Lelouch does fight for them. He doesn't condone how Britannia treats them, and makes a point of it repeatedly.

That the world isn't exactly the way one wants it doesn't make it one's enemy though. Lelouch's motive for wanting to destroy it was a personal betrayal.

So much ital. Not to make fun or anything, just saying.

Sorry, it's a bit tough to visualize through the reply screen, so I suppose I tend to spam them sometimes.

How far would Schneizel and Cornelia really have supported them? Cornelia wasn't even that supporting to her own sister, and makes it quite clear she endorses how Britannia treats people, which Lelouch and Nunnally do not agree with. Schneizel's an enabler, but only insofar as it doesn't infringe on the interests of others. He endorsed the SAZ, but he's pretty clear on the fact that he does not treat it as reform. He treats it as a means to undermine the Black Knights and make peace.

Support in the sense of protected them. Allowed them their gentle world, shielded them from ambition-motivated antagonism. Dealt with their 'enemies' (if they actually exist) in the sense of those who wanted to destroy them. The point is that the world was not Lelouch's enemy, he made it so.

As for what troubles they would face, let's take the example of Nunnally, Charles really had no reason to grant her request, and if it weren't for her use as leverage against Lelouch probably wouldn't have allowed her to take up the position of Viceroy. Even then he was ready to snatch her away at a moment's notice. Ignoring that, you have Lomeyer, undeniable bitch that she is, ready to subvert Nunnally at a moment's notice and making decisions on her own. This is all in a fairly harmless position, too.

None of this constitutes a threat to Nunally's personal safety or a restraint on her pursuit of her goals. People might disapprove and refuse to cooperate, but nobody could actually stop her. If she wanted to pursue internal change, then she damn well could. If the change she advocated brought results, then there's nothing anyone could do.

Lelouch, who would no doubt have even bigger aspirations, would have no hope whatsoever of affecting the change he desired, having given up his right to the throne.

All he has to do is support somebody who does. Hey look, Nunally.

It occurs to me this has very little to do with Shirley, so to swing it back to your original point about showing him the world isn't his enemy, it would be fundamentally impossible to convince him of such. The world was wrong, and that's not even counting the crazy shit Charles and Schneizel pulled. For him to be even remotely convinced he would have to accept Britannia's constant expansionism as a fact of life, and that is something Lelouch would never do.

It wasn't some idealistic perception that the world was 'wrong' that made the world Lelouch's enemy. It was the reality that it had repeatedly denied him of his happiness. Of course, as the rebellion progressed, it was more and more Lelouch's own actions that were causing this. If Lelouch were to realize this, and percieve that he didn't need to destroy everything to make room for his happiness, he'd have been okay. Instead, the actions of Lelouch and the enemies he'd created culminated in the loss of everything he'd ever cared for, and he gave up on personal happiness completely.

Because you're trying to compare incarnation (Kallen) and having Nunnally quite literally kidnapped to willfully pushing people away. This is entirely different.He ascribed to the philosophy insomuch as he kept his loved ones at arms length. He can't be like Charles and throw them into another country.

Wiping Shirley's memories (of his entire existence, not his identity as Zero) isn't keeping her at arms length, it is walking away from her forever. Shooting Euphie through the heart isn't keeping her at arms length, it is walking away from her forever. That was Lelouch's subscription to 'push your happiness away for its own good'. For that matter, his final call to Rivalz, 'live on' and 'sayonara', as well as his final scene with Nunally, were not keeping them at arms length, they were walking away from them forever. Lelouch believed in that. The complete abandonment of his happiness, the sealing of his emotions. This was the conviction Shirley temporarily managed but ultimately failed to break over the course of the series.

I still do not get how you've come up with her winning Lelouch's heart. It confounds me. At best, she forced a concession out of him through persistence and circumstance in Turn 12, and he already cared about being happy well before the firework dream came about.

lol. I am not even arguing on this point. As I said, although the double meaning was there, my use of 'won over his heart' referred to having swung Lelouch onto her 'side' (caring for his personal happiness; as opposed to C.C.'s 'push away what is dear to you' and 'I will be the only one left by you in the end'--i.e. the abandonment of it.).

Not according to Milly, who was running her ass off to escape the stray ordnance. Or how about Anya, with her Stark Hadron Cannon split into four directions and carving a whole bunch of news roads every which way. Tamaki was firing from the ground against Luciano, too. Then there's all the Knightmare parts crashing, all the bullets missing that would surely have hit something, etc. Tokyo was in the crossfire and paying for it. Even worse, the G-Trains probably weren't empty when the Britannians starting blowing them up.

Eh. As far as the Gefjun trains, it's night. The scrap and bullets too. They were fighting over the metropolitan area, with a focus on the Governor's building. I'm sure most people would have already gone home. If they hadn't, then in the hypothetical case of Shirley interfering, she'd ask them to do it a bit later. Attacking Tokyo doesn't have to involve massive civilian loss, so I don't see why she'd have to oppose it completely.

Not like she would have known. Fleija would have happened, if not by Suzaku then by Anya or whoever when they got tired of Suzaku's stubbornness and sent someone to do the job right.

lol. No, actually I'm pretty sure we could have counted on Suzaku to even stop them, if he were convinced it wasn't necessary.

But, back to the point, Shirley wouldn't have accompanied Lelouch. Suzaku said to come alone, and Lelouch wouldn't break that promise. Nor would he even bring her near for that matter, in case things went south, which they did. She'd have stayed behind.

Fair enough on the last point, but even this wouldn't have much effect on the meeting. At best it would only serve to prove Shirley wrong.

Lelouch knows Suzaku wouldn't hurt Shirley, and Suzaku knows she wouldn't attack him either. Really, her presence could only have helped. But, this was a plot development related to her death in the first place, so I think this point is a bit too speculative to really get into. I just wanted to say that Shirley being there wouldn't be totally impossible.

As for proving Shirley wrong, actually no, it wasn't wrong of Lelouch to trust Suzaku. It was wrong of Lelouch to immediately assume a betrayal, and wrong of Suzaku not to try harder to clear that up. Valuing their old friendship turned out to be the right thing, as evidenced by whom they finally decided to trust and depend on in the end, when everything else had gone to shit.

[Nobodyman9]

My my, quite the discussion you two have going on huh?

Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say that, per the request/advice of my critics, I've had added some more to my Shirlulu fic to explain how Lelouch accounted for Nunnally and his and Shirley's sudden disappearance. Hope you enjoy.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...68#post2436268

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

My my, quite the discussion you two have going on huh?

Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say that, per the request/advice of my critics, I've had added some more to my Shirlulu fic to explain how Lelouch accounted for Nunnally and his and Shirley's sudden disappearance. Hope you enjoy.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...68#post2436268

>_< Indeed, as of that last post, it has become entirely too much of a 'quote and rebutt each and every individual point' war. If I'm still doing posts like this by the time the new romance thread opens up, I'll never get any sleep.

Your new additions to your fic are pretty good, and plausible. Actually, I didn't really want to review earlier because my criticism is with the premise of the pivital plot point in the first place, so if you took it seriously it'd negate a huge chunk of the actual content. Actually, I don't like the idea of Shirley's 'recovery' being so instantaneous. I think the effect of geass is more powerful than that, and would find it more believable if Shirley's recovery were a long, hard fought, but ultimately satisfying struggle. This is quite a bit different from your actual fic though, so it doesn't really feel like a constructive critique of your writing skills. Sorry.