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synaesthetic · 2009-07-09, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne

As for giant robots? Well, as long as they don't do choreography like Michael Bay's then I'm all game.

If you remember the initial Knightmare battles throughout season one, up until the point that Lancelot received a float unit... they were fairly interesting and unique. The machines had a good blend of quasi-realistic BattleTech-alike movements, but with a uniquely Japanese mecha flair (especially concerning the slash harkens).

I sometimes wonder if the landskimmer system is a shout out to Heavy Gear. The Heavy Gear PC games were awesome and I saw a lot more Japanese mecha influence in them than I ever did in MechWarrior.

This is getting so off-topic, if you want to reply to me do it in the CG technology thread.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-09, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

This is getting so off-topic, if you want to reply to me do it in the CG technology thread.

Not if we change the subject just a little

So do you think Shirley had the capacity to pilot a KMF unit? I'm not talking about whether she could have become a full-fledged soldier, but do you think she could decently pilot a KMF if she got a few lessons?

morbosfist · 2009-07-09, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So do you think Shirley had the capacity to pilot a KMF unit? I'm not talking about whether she could have become a full-fledged soldier, but do you think she could decently pilot a KMF if she got a few lessons?

If Euphie could...

Rising Dragon · 2009-07-09, 01:16

There seems to be civilian-use Knightmare Frames in the series, so training her wouldn't be too far-fetched to me...

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-09, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If Euphie could...

When did she......oh right, the massacre. Well, if memory serves, I recall that KMFs aren't exactly too difficult to pilot in the CG universe. So yeah, I suppose Shirley could. I guess a better question would be if Shirley was a KMF pilot, what rank would she be?

For example we've got Kallen and Suzaku who are S rank. Gino, Anya, and Jeremiah I guess would be A rank. Lelouch would probably be something like C. And Tamaki...well, if you can't say something nice...

Rising Dragon · 2009-07-09, 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

When did she......oh right, the massacre. Well, if memory serves, I recall that KMFs aren't exactly too difficult to pilot in the CG universe. So yeah, I suppose Shirley could. I guess a better question would be if Shirley was a KMF pilot, what rank would she be?

For example we've got Kallen and Suzaku who are S rank. Gino, Anya, and Jeremiah I guess would be A rank. Lelouch would probably be something like C. And Tamaki...well, if you can't say something nice...

Not just the massacre, but when Suzaku was going to be sacrificed as well.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-09, 01:29

Even though it's not touched upon often in canon, most Real Robot settings have the mecha used for various mundane tasks outside of combat. Patlabor is based upon this idea, and there are construction wanzers in Front Mission.

We've seen in R2 the folding utility Knightmare, so we know that there are support and noncombat frames in use. It's possible and probably pretty likely that they're in common use and a lot of people know how to operate them.

That is not to say that they'd be skilled enough to fight using one, however. Even if Shirley knew how to pilot a Knightmare, she has no military training and would likely be about as bad at it as Lelouch is!

Yes, I know Lelouch holds his own in quite a few battles, but it's important to remember that he has the use of the Gawain and Shinkirou in most of those fights. If you think back to the beginning, where he was in a Sutherland or a Burai, it didn't take much to kick him to the ground if he got into a scrap with someone.

He's a good example of someone who knows how to pilot a Knightmare but was never trained on how to fight with one.

Nobodyman9 · 2009-07-09, 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Not just the massacre, but when Suzaku was going to be sacrificed as well.

Oy, my memory of the first season is so hazy

@synae: Good analysis. And you raise a good point about Shirley having no military training. So yeah, she'd probably be as good as Lelouch at best. Maybe a little better since she's more physically capable.

morbosfist · 2009-07-09, 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

We've seen in R2 the folding utility Knightmare, so we know that there are support and noncombat frames in use. It's possible and probably pretty likely that they're in common use and a lot of people know how to operate them.

We see that in R1, too, when Suzaku is saved from execution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

That is not to say that they'd be skilled enough to fight using one, however. Even if Shirley knew how to pilot a Knightmare, she has no military training and would likely be about as bad at it as Lelouch is!

Yes, I know Lelouch holds his own in quite a few battles, but it's important to remember that he has the use of the Gawain and Shinkirou in most of those fights. If you think back to the beginning, where he was in a Sutherland or a Burai, it didn't take much to kick him to the ground if he got into a scrap with someone.

He's a good example of someone who knows how to pilot a Knightmare but was never trained on how to fight with one.

Lelouch is not bad at it, he's competent, at least as much as your average military pilot. In comparison to seasoned pilots he sucks, but to say he's bad at it is an overstatement.

Citing his battles in the Sutherland and Burai against the Lancelot and Cornelia's Gloucester is not a fair assessment of his abilities. Kallen got her ass kicked too when she faced the Lancelot in her one-armed Glasgow. Against ordinary pilots, Lelouch is shown to know what he's doing. He fucked Jeremiah up, after all, albeit by surprise, and was holding his own against the Sutherlands at Narita.

To at least be somewhat on topic, Shirley would probably be on par or lower than your average grunt when it comes to skill. She doesn't have the right attitude for it.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-09, 02:19

Concerning super prototypes, only other super prototypes can fight on equal terms with them. Lelouch's piloting skills are obviously lacking for combat.

Concerning utility frames, who knows? Most Britannians may know how to pilot one, the story never goes into detail about that. The controls probably are simpler than a full blown combat model, so yeah.

I don't see Shirley ever becoming a Knightmare pilot. Siding with Lelouch, yes. Maybe even joining the Black Knights much in the same way C.C. and Rolo did (simply by being close to Zero). But you know, I'm not sure what role she'd really fill other than Lelouch's Morality Pet.

Additionally, according to the story there are no "average grunt" Knightmare pilots. Like the real world, only savvy and ranking officers can pilot fighter planes and command tanks. So even the lowest ranking Sutherland pilot in the Britannian military would be a warrant officer at worst.

morbosfist · 2009-07-09, 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Concerning super prototypes, only other super prototypes can fight on equal terms with them. Lelouch's piloting skills are obviously lacking for combat.

Again, no they're not. You're using clearly stacked odds as a point against Lelouch. Lelouch is just as good a pilot as your standard Britannian, and rare though it may be, the few times where he's actually fighting equal frames show it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Concerning utility frames, who knows? Most Britannians may know how to pilot one, the story never goes into detail about that. The controls probably are simpler than a full blown combat model, so yeah.

Knightmare controls are standardized, at least where mass-production is concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Additionally, according to the story there are no "average grunt" Knightmare pilots. Like the real world, only savvy and ranking officers can pilot fighter planes and command tanks. So even the lowest ranking Sutherland pilot in the Britannian military would be a warrant officer at worst.

Missing the point. It's not grunt as a rank, it's grunt as a matter of skill. They don't stick top-tier pilots in crap Sutherlands (usually). Better pilots get promotions and better machines.

synaesthetic · 2009-07-09, 02:45

I never said he was a horrible pilot--obviously he's better than Tamaki... >.>;

He hasn't had any military training in a Knightmare. The fact that he's managed to hold his own so well in many fights is mostly due to the offensive power (Gawain) or defensive power (Shinkirou) of his personal Knightmare Frame. And really, the Gawain was piloted by C.C., not him (he controlled the guns) and C.C. is a fairly competent pilot.

He did well in the Sutherland he stole from Viletta, but then again who did he go against? Suzaku in the Lancelot. So it wasn't an accurate measure of his abilities as a pilot since the difference in machines was so enormous.

The fight against Orange-kun is a better comparison but I'm pretty sure Lelouch getting the jump on him is what really tilted the battle in his favor. When Jeremiah got serious, Kallen took him on while Lelouch got out of the way.

It's established that Lelouch kind of fails at Knightmare combat (if he was good at it he'd be nearing Marty Stu proportions). I don't think Shirley would be any better than him, especially since he had more practice using the Ganymede at Ashford to make giant pizzas.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-07-09, 04:19

not that i mind
but why is this debate going on in the sheirly thread ?

azul120 · 2009-07-09, 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not that i mind
but why is this debate going on in the sheirly thread ?

Someone saying that Shirley would be at Lelouch's level as a pilot despite her inexperience I guess?

bladeofdarkness · 2009-07-09, 04:26

putting aside her inexperience
she'd get killed her first time out for hesitating to take a life against an opponent who has no such problems (any britannian pilot)

Rising Dragon · 2009-07-09, 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

putting aside her inexperience
she'd get killed her first time out for hesitating to take a life against an opponent who has no such problems (any britannian pilot)

Except that's not how this discussion was originally about, really. Nobodyman9 asked if Shirley would be a decent pilot (not a full-fledged soldier) with a few lessons in KMF training. The idea is plausible, as Knightmare Frames do not seem to be a solely military vehicle.

bladeofdarkness · 2009-07-09, 04:55

if she joins the OOBK and gets something like a vincent or akatsuki that can actually move around WELL
i'd expect her to have the potential to become a great pilot BECAUSE of her in experiance

you'll notice that there is a specific trend with the professional britannian pilots where after getting handed 7th and 8th gen machines, they still act like they are a faster stronger satherlands and glochtters
i think its has to do with fixed mindset that comes from years of using a machine that is very limited in what it can do
the 7th gens are capable of doing much more, but the pilot doenst THINK about using them
and the same goes with toudo and the swords, they got machines that can do much more then just swing swords around, but they never use it for anything but

contrast with suzaku and kallen, and later on in season 2 rolo
none of whom have any "classic" training and therefor isnt limited in their thinking
jumps, flips, punches, kicks, throwing close range weapons to hit long range targets,etc

rolo demonstrates what a vincent is capable of in ep 2, it can match the lancelot for speed and agility, and yet every single pilot who uses one other then him, uses it as if its a mook machine (valkyria squad, im looking at you)

suzaku gets the lancelot in ep 2 and awesomeness results, using harkens as close range weapons, jumping and flipping to avoid gunfire, and of course the spinkicks

kallen takes it even farther
she cant fly and fights an opponent who can while she needs to be at close range ?
"no problem"
jumping off buildings, skating on wires, whatever it takes
and in the final fight between them, both suzaku and kallen run out of weapons.
"so what"
if they dont have weapons, they just keep going WITHOUT them

now notice that all three of them have no formal training and experiance, and you'll notice that this is effected in their piloting skill as an advantage
sheirly has no experiance either, but if she joins the OOBK and gets some training from kallen for example (i'd expect lelouch to want her trained by the best)
she'd have the potential to be a great pilot

azul120 · 2009-07-09, 05:44

Wait, didn't Rolo take advantage of his Geass in Turn 2?

bladeofdarkness · 2009-07-09, 05:48

watch how he pilots it against some of the burai
jumps, flips
he makes it move like suzaku moves the lancelot

incorrupts · 2009-07-09, 09:02

Shame on you guys, today is Shirley's b-day {coincidentally today is the b-day of one of my sisters as well, lol}, and no one remembered, then again, not even Sunrise remembered to put her off that chara chart, so, ah. DD8

Anyway, some graphics linked from the Shirlulu comm and haine::

Spoiler for spoiler for graphics:

2009-07-09, 01:16	Link #804
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	There seems to be civilian-use Knightmare Frames in the series, so training her wouldn't be too far-fetched to me... __________________

2009-07-09, 01:29	Link #807
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 40	Even though it's not touched upon often in canon, most Real Robot settings have the mecha used for various mundane tasks outside of combat. Patlabor is based upon this idea, and there are construction wanzers in Front Mission. We've seen in R2 the folding utility Knightmare, so we know that there are support and noncombat frames in use. It's possible and probably pretty likely that they're in common use and a lot of people know how to operate them. That is not to say that they'd be skilled enough to fight using one, however. Even if Shirley knew how to pilot a Knightmare, she has no military training and would likely be about as bad at it as Lelouch is! Yes, I know Lelouch holds his own in quite a few battles, but it's important to remember that he has the use of the Gawain and Shinkirou in most of those fights. If you think back to the beginning, where he was in a Sutherland or a Burai, it didn't take much to kick him to the ground if he got into a scrap with someone. He's a good example of someone who knows how to pilot a Knightmare but was never trained on how to fight with one. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-09, 02:19	Link #810
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 40	Concerning super prototypes, only other super prototypes can fight on equal terms with them. Lelouch's piloting skills are obviously lacking for combat. Concerning utility frames, who knows? Most Britannians may know how to pilot one, the story never goes into detail about that. The controls probably are simpler than a full blown combat model, so yeah. I don't see Shirley ever becoming a Knightmare pilot. Siding with Lelouch, yes. Maybe even joining the Black Knights much in the same way C.C. and Rolo did (simply by being close to Zero). But you know, I'm not sure what role she'd really fill other than Lelouch's Morality Pet. Additionally, according to the story there are no "average grunt" Knightmare pilots. Like the real world, only savvy and ranking officers can pilot fighter planes and command tanks. So even the lowest ranking Sutherland pilot in the Britannian military would be a warrant officer at worst. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-09, 02:45	Link #812
synaesthetic blinded by blood Author Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Age: 40	I never said he was a horrible pilot--obviously he's better than Tamaki... >.>; He hasn't had any military training in a Knightmare. The fact that he's managed to hold his own so well in many fights is mostly due to the offensive power (Gawain) or defensive power (Shinkirou) of his personal Knightmare Frame. And really, the Gawain was piloted by C.C., not him (he controlled the guns) and C.C. is a fairly competent pilot. He did well in the Sutherland he stole from Viletta, but then again who did he go against? Suzaku in the Lancelot. So it wasn't an accurate measure of his abilities as a pilot since the difference in machines was so enormous. The fight against Orange-kun is a better comparison but I'm pretty sure Lelouch getting the jump on him is what really tilted the battle in his favor. When Jeremiah got serious, Kallen took him on while Lelouch got out of the way. It's established that Lelouch kind of fails at Knightmare combat (if he was good at it he'd be nearing Marty Stu proportions). I don't think Shirley would be any better than him, especially since he had more practice using the Ganymede at Ashford to make giant pizzas. __________________ Indie science fiction author and all-around weirdo: Check out my original fiction here! Read an excerpt from my sci-fi novel Binary System!

2009-07-09, 04:19	Link #813
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	not that i mind but why is this debate going on in the sheirly thread ? __________________

2009-07-09, 04:26	Link #815
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	putting aside her inexperience she'd get killed her first time out for hesitating to take a life against an opponent who has no such problems (any britannian pilot) __________________

2009-07-09, 04:55	Link #817
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	if she joins the OOBK and gets something like a vincent or akatsuki that can actually move around WELL i'd expect her to have the potential to become a great pilot BECAUSE of her in experiance you'll notice that there is a specific trend with the professional britannian pilots where after getting handed 7th and 8th gen machines, they still act like they are a faster stronger satherlands and glochtters i think its has to do with fixed mindset that comes from years of using a machine that is very limited in what it can do the 7th gens are capable of doing much more, but the pilot doenst THINK about using them and the same goes with toudo and the swords, they got machines that can do much more then just swing swords around, but they never use it for anything but contrast with suzaku and kallen, and later on in season 2 rolo none of whom have any "classic" training and therefor isnt limited in their thinking jumps, flips, punches, kicks, throwing close range weapons to hit long range targets,etc rolo demonstrates what a vincent is capable of in ep 2, it can match the lancelot for speed and agility, and yet every single pilot who uses one other then him, uses it as if its a mook machine (valkyria squad, im looking at you) suzaku gets the lancelot in ep 2 and awesomeness results, using harkens as close range weapons, jumping and flipping to avoid gunfire, and of course the spinkicks kallen takes it even farther she cant fly and fights an opponent who can while she needs to be at close range ? "no problem" jumping off buildings, skating on wires, whatever it takes and in the final fight between them, both suzaku and kallen run out of weapons. "so what" if they dont have weapons, they just keep going WITHOUT them now notice that all three of them have no formal training and experiance, and you'll notice that this is effected in their piloting skill as an advantage sheirly has no experiance either, but if she joins the OOBK and gets some training from kallen for example (i'd expect lelouch to want her trained by the best) she'd have the potential to be a great pilot __________________

2009-07-09, 05:44	Link #818
azul120 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Wait, didn't Rolo take advantage of his Geass in Turn 2?

2009-07-09, 05:48	Link #819
bladeofdarkness Um-Shmum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts Age: 39	watch how he pilots it against some of the burai jumps, flips he makes it move like suzaku moves the lancelot __________________

2009-07-09, 09:02	Link #820
incorrupts Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greece Age: 35	Shame on you guys, today is Shirley's b-day {coincidentally today is the b-day of one of my sisters as well, lol}, and no one remembered, then again, not even Sunrise remembered to put her off that chara chart, so, ah. DD8 Anyway, some graphics linked from the Shirlulu comm and haine:: Spoiler for spoiler for graphics: