Ukrainian Conflict

[Der Langrisser]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But since EU is trying to Federalise, and Poland is a full member, they can't ignore Poland's demands if they are serious about forming the United States of Europe. I don't see the EU suddenly backing off on this. If they want to be one big country, they are going to have to start acting like one.

We'll all be dead of old age looong before the EU become one big country.
Currently, the tendency is division rather than federalisation, with most EU citizens considering the EU as an obscure, undemocratic organisation. And the european elections are seen as a joke (just watch the abstention rate) to vent up frustration against our own governments.

[panzerfan]

If anything, this Russian issue is about the one thing that EU is all talking about while having a "Russia isn't looking out for any of us" agreement over it. Most of the time, it's a lot of "us vs. die Merkelreich" in all the other member states...

[Ithekro]

A unification factor? Russia for the EU?

[Grifis]

Following on this crisis on the news has been quite trying. I have to wade through the convoluted demonizing of Russia/Putin. It seems Ukraine is reaching its melting point and wants Putin to takes off his gloves badly.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Grifis

Following on this crisis on the news has been quite trying. I have to wade through the convoluted demonizing of Russia/Putin. It seems Ukraine is reaching its melting point and wants Putin to takes off his gloves badly.

Demonizing of Putin?

What are you talking about? Putin is just invading and conquering a weaker smaller nation as a part of his plan in forming a new USSR, who said anything about demonizing?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Demonizing of Putin?

What are you talking about? Putin is just invading and conquering a weaker smaller nation as a part of his plan in forming a new USSR, who said anything about demonizing?

The reason is because people are insisting that this is all just supposedly a "ploy" by "Republicans who want to boost the weapons industry a bit by starting a war". Of course those people also act as if the U.S. and its internal politics were the whole world... When I read those comments sections of news articles... I mean what does THAT have to do with the fact that Putin is obviously trying to build a new soviet union?

Just look at this!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sia-isis-syria

So many facepalm worthy comments about how "everythign is America's fault", or "America being the real bully", "There is no proof for Russia having invaded Ukraine", etc.

Not to mention all those people who play the "moral card", but then don't have any alternative ideas of offer themselves.

The worst ones though are those who say that Eastern Ukraine is "fighting for its freedom".

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Just look at this!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sia-isis-syria

Don't take it seriously. The Guardian was practically under siege by the Putinbots since the crisis started way back during the Euromaidan. Pro-Russian posts by new members who exclusively comment on the issue always have unnaturally high recommends there regardless of justification, while a number of regular Guardian commentators are pretty pissed about it. And they are the real UK leftists, the types who otherwise have little fondness for the USA.

Some silly, obvious effort at cyber warfare.

Or maybe not silly since even here in Animesuki they're making otherwise reasonable people into "Peace in Our Time" Nevilles by baiting latent anti-Americanism (like the Americans have fuck all to do with the invasion).

[Wigwams]

has noone developed a neutron jammer?!?!

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Demonizing of Putin?

What are you talking about? Putin is just invading and conquering a weaker smaller nation as a part of his plan in forming a new USSR, who said anything about demonizing?

Precisely. This is what I'm talking about. You're such an exceptional mind reader. You can see his plan so clearly. I'm almost impressed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Grifis

Precisely. This is what I'm talking about. You're such an exceptional mind reader. You can see his plan so clearly. I'm almost impressed.

I have no idea what your real response is suppose to be. Am I wrong? Are you telling me Putin isn't, right at this very moment, sending Russian troops into Ukraine to fight and kill Ukrainians, while denying that his troops were his? What do you think Putin is doing then?

Tell me what you think is happening.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Tell me what you think is happening.

Why, the Russians are merely taking a vacation in Ukraine, that's all.



Hmm? those tanks? oh, those are just their personal luggage, don't worry about it.

[DevilHighDxD]

Due to school and stuffs, I haven't been much updated on the Ukrainian's crisis. So can anyone cared to tell me any new things that happened?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Due to school and stuffs, I haven't been much updated on the Ukrainian's crisis. So can anyone cared to tell me any new things that happened?

Ukraine is trying to organise a ceasefire with Russia. Russia deny there is any ceasefire because they say they have nothing to do with the war because the Russian troops in Ukraine don't exist.

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have no idea what your real response is suppose to be. Am I wrong? Are you telling me Putin isn't, right at this very moment, sending Russian troops into Ukraine to fight and kill Ukrainians, while denying that his troops were his? What do you think Putin is doing then?

Tell me what you think is happening.

You're suggesting that Putin has a grand plan of conquering Ukraine and beyond. I don't see how the current events can support that accusation. I can't read what Putin is doing (because I'm not a mind reader) but I don't see enough evidence to conclude that his interest expands any further than the areas that the rebels captured. I don't want to be like the mob that jumped on Russia without concrete evidence when M17 happened.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Grifis

You're suggesting that Putin has a grand plan of conquering Ukraine and beyond. I don't see how the current events can support that accusation. I can't read what Putin is doing (because I'm not a mind reader) but I don't see enough evidence to conclude that his interest expands any further than the areas that the rebels captured. I don't want to be like the mob that jumped on Russia without concrete evidence when M17 happened.

Since Putin is denying he is even attacking Ukraine at all, I fail to see how your faith in him is remotely justified. Putin can't even admit he is conquering Ukraine, what made you think he would admit he wants to go further and reclaim all other past territory?

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I WISH we would be going federal but sadly it looks more likely that we are heading the other way with increased division amongst the European countries.

Pretty much, the EU is closer to falling apart than it is to federalize. The f-word is nothing more than a boogieman to scare a bunch of voters into voting far-right (or far-left)

[konart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ukraine is trying to organise a ceasefire with Russia. Russia deny there is any ceasefire because they say they have nothing to do with the war because the Russian troops in Ukraine don't exist.

Not really. Russia is trying to organize a ceasefire between separatists and UA on conditions that will satisfy Russia. And as long as those conditions are not met separatists won't except a ceasefire because Russia *cough* do not *cough* control them.

Since Putin is denying he is even attacking Ukraine at all, I fail to see how your faith in him is remotely justified. Putin can't even admit he is conquering Ukraine, what made you think he would admit he wants to go further and reclaim all other past territory?

Because it's too expensive in all kind of ways and stupid. It's unreal for Russia to occupy a territory this big with 40kk people living there.
But! Russia can establish so called DNR and LNR republics (maybe a bit more, but not the entire country or even half of it) and gain major influence over Ukraine. If this happens - Russia will own (again - not really, but good enough) Ukraine without any need to occupy it and loose people or money.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Germany used to have a conscription. Until they have all been run out, Germany still has a sizeable and well-trained conscript force.

Tiz a joke right? This conscription army is just a paper tiger. I mean, when the Bundeswehr sends 10% of their troops abroad they are technically at their limits. I have never ever seen such an inefficient military. Germany cannot support any conflict in a decent way (unless you need small scale special operations). The only meaningful german influence in global warfare is german weapon exports.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well, Does the Russian Army want to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Berlin at Berlin?

No, they just do what they are ordered to do.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

The moment this started to become a reality, is also the moment Russian forces match into Kiev.

I means seriously what will NATO do if Russia made up some excuses now ("oh our military general was assassin by Ukrainian special task force"), and blitz their way toward Kiev. What can NATO do then?

This is not going to happen, Russia does not gain anything by adding a destabilizing factor to the country.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The argument is, what stops Putin simply march all the way through Europe and taking every piece of land not protected by nukes?

If Nato won't uphold the alliance, then we are done. It would be official that mass nuclear proliferation will be needed, as it is the only way to protect ANY country from being invaded. Treaties mean nothing if you have no nukes to back it up.

Well if thats the case, just grand Iran their wish to err "peaceful use of nuclear technology".

Originally Posted by Sackett

I think the point is that Ukraine was supposedly unable to join NATO in return for Russian guarantees of its security. Now that Russia has so flagrantly violated that agreement Ukraine is now eligible to apply to NATO.

It's merely a reminder to Russia that there are some long term costs associated with their behavior.

I have to say some of the rhetoric coming out of Russia is quite scary. One member of their parliament thing is saying they ought to nuke one of the "small" countries (Baltics or Poland) to scare the West into accepting Russian domination of Eastern Europe. Putin is making comments about Kazakhstan not being a real state (similar to his comments about Ukraine not being a real state).

Basically Russia figures that since no one will stop them they can do whatever they want.

Well, actually thats more like a useless attempt to divide Ukraine and give one half to NATO and the other to Russia. If you told Ukraine that beforehand they might not have agreed, but now each side is more or less eagerly turning to their respective "protectors".

Originally Posted by vasya(russ)

Putin will not advance further because the west will completely choke russian economy in response. He is bluffing. Also this war is stadily loosing support from russian people both bacause of sanctions and human losses. Russians don't want to sacrifice their prosperity and their sons for Putin's ambitions (though his rating is quite high yet). Even the propaganda will not halt it. In short, Ukrane is Putin's Vietnam.

Hello, by the way! This is my first post though I've been observing this forum for quite a bit.

Its not about choking the russian economy. They never before "annexed" non-russian speaking enclaves, because they need some sort of legal backup for their annexations (some sort of elections) and their propaganda must work on the annexed region's people (you simply cannot pull this off with western Ukraine).

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

No, Ukraine's only mistake is giving up nukes in the mistaken belief that Russia could be trusted.

At the time when this was decided, fear was strong that economically bankrupt nations that cannot support their military aperatus and at the same time are in posession of nuclear weapons might become a feed-stock for a nuclear black market. Hence, even NATO supported the idea back then.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

during the height of the cold war it was absolutely the idea of mutually assure destruction that keep both the US and USSR in check. Confrontations were done by proxy. The closest US and USSR went into direct conflict with each other was the Cuban Missile Crisis and that was button away form Nuke War.


i thought Crimea would have satisfied Putin but i was wrong.
i thought with the downing of the Malaysia jet Putin would pull back, i was wrong
i thought with imminent defeat of the separatist Putin would pull back, i was wrong.

My point, you can't predict what Putin will do.

No, this only proves, that you do not understand what is going on there.

Originally Posted by Der Langrisser

We'll all be dead of old age looong before the EU become one big country.
Currently, the tendency is division rather than federalisation, with most EU citizens considering the EU as an obscure, undemocratic organisation. And the european elections are seen as a joke (just watch the abstention rate) to vent up frustration against our own governments.

Speaking as a german citizen now: The level of ferderalization is just too complex. You have to vote for your city council, your county council, your state government, your national governmant and for the european parliament.

And all the way up this line, the influence of a voter's "voice" becomes more and more deluted. Lobbyism becomes a major force on state government level already. All these indirections allow not for a united states of europe but rather something like the united corporate enterprise european cluster.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Tiz a joke right? This conscription army is just a paper tiger. I mean, when the Bundeswehr sends 10% of their troops abroad they are technically at their limits. I have never ever seen such an inefficient military. Germany cannot support any conflict in a decent way (unless you need small scale special operations). The only meaningful german influence in global warfare is german weapon exports.

You mean you are just as bad as we Singaporeans are? Seriously I thought after exchanging stories with my mother's friend, you guys are better trained than us!

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

You mean you are just as bad as we Singaporeans are? Seriously I thought after exchanging stories with my mother's friend, you guys are better trained than us!

I dont know about the training (cannot really compare, the only multinational excercise I was taking part in was a danish, german, polish, lithuanian multinational batallion excercise with the focus on how the brass can communicate in a meaningful way with each other )

The limiting factor is funding and equipement. We have 1000s of Leo's and 100s of APCs, armored artillery and other armored vehicles stationed in Germany, but no means to bring the equipement to where it is needed.

The Bundeswehr was created as a force to stop the Russians long enough, so that professional military can prepare and land in Germany to bring the war to Russia. So it basically was nothing but a sophisticated road block. The problem with a road block is, that its pretty useless, unless the enemy runs over it.