Closure on Kaede

[SoldierOfDarkness]

anyways, i really didnt like that Asa ended up with Rin. Please, no offense to Asa lovers k! she was barely focused on in the first half of the series and all of the sudden, she was forcefed to viewers beginning with that trip to the love-park.

Apparently you chose to ignore the parts where Asa steps in and helps Rin out.

Within 7 episodes Asa already,

Helped Rin escape from the defense forces,
Assisted Nerine with cooking
Persuaded Rin to go and tutor Sia
Stepped in to help Rin do the chores with the other girls, made him dinner, and then advised him that Kaede can only be healed by him.

And the list goes on.

Then enter the next few episodes where Rin reveals just how much he appreciates Asa for all the help she did for him. When he fell she was there to pick him up.

All Kaede ever did was spoonfed and spoil Rin and placed herself on a self-destructive path or "robbing her of her youth" as Rin would put it.

Besides, how many people do you think would've expected Rin to choose the secondary girl?

@ Vexx:

I'd have to disagree. Noone I know in 'the real world' uses the term except to be derogatory. I dislike the use of slang terms in general, especially those that carry as much baggage. I refer to it as 'Japanese' all the time, as do all the people I know and associate with. If you're interested in an Australian 'anime group' perspective, the best place to visit would be the forums of Madman Entertainment - they're our anime distributor down here (yes, pretty much just them!).

For reference - on the Madboards (as they are termed) using the word 'jap' is considered offensive, and repeated use is bannable. So nope, it's not an Australian thing

Yes it's a very bad thing, an english teacher in Japan got in serious trouble when he addressed his students by "chap"

[Orchunter226]

I agree with SoldierofDarkness about the Asa thing. It made perfect sense. Whenever Rin was having problems, Asa was there to help him and make things right.

Out of all the girls she was the one who understood his feelings best. When all the other girls didn't know what to do to cheer Rin up she did, she knew him better. I think Asa just was the best match for him.

Also, the other girls may have smothered him to much. When all the other girls were going after him Asa would just step in to help and not dote on him. I think how overbearing the other girls were pushed Rin into Asa (not that she wasn't at some points).



..Chap lol.

[LocrEpinS]

Sorry about the last post, i had no clue whatsoever that it could be offensive, to all those who are or not offended plz accept this personal apology.
Sorry again.
Oh yeah this probably doesn't belong in this thread but i really wanna learn japanese and since i haven't found any japanese school's nearby i don't really know where to go from here, i have so much spare time, well maybe not that much.
I've found quite a few japanese language learning sites but they don't seem to cover everything, and i'm pretty lost as to where i should go from here.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Orchunter226

Also, the other girls may have smothered him to much. When all the other girls were going after him Asa would just step in to help and not dote on him. I think how overbearing the other girls were pushed Rin into Asa (not that she wasn't at some points).

Refresh my memory: WHEN did Kaede and Primula fall over Rin (besides Kaede's scene on episode 20 - but that was way too late to change anything)? The only ones that were active more or less were Sia and Nerine.
But I agree, Asa was the best match for an idiot like Rin

[Vexx]

Thanks for the clarification, Andiyar ... I was just making allowances for what I hoped were just local differences in intent since I didn't know how the term was taken in Australia. Like I said... say it around my wife and her relatives and put your kneecaps in peril

SoldierofDarkness is correct, there are plenty of Asa bits throughout the series... she's always there, helping out here and there (both Rin and the girls --- she helped Nerine learn how to make eggs). Even in Nerine's cooking ep, Nerine was catching on that Asa loved Rin as more than just a buddy and that was, what, episode 4? Asa was submarining in, but her periscope was up for any observant sort to see. ((points for Nerine ))

LocrEpinS: If you want to learn Japanese and your school or local community college doesn't offer it, I'd suggest hitting the bookstore and picking some software-audio packages on conversational Japanese... couple that with a series of books called "Japanese in Mangaland"
http://www.nipoweb.com/eng/
They're oriented towards people specifically interested in anime and manga. I've found them to be useful as a secondary reference since they cover more casual speech than formal classes teach.

[LocrEpinS]

Thx man, i'll check em out strait away.
I have some audio tutorials, but i really wanna also be about to read and write it, which the audio tutorials don't offer.
But yeah books wouldn't be too bad.

[evil-samurai]

Originally Posted by Orchunter226

Out of all the girls she was the one who understood his feelings best. When all the other girls didn't know what to do to cheer Rin up she did, she knew him better. I think Asa just was the best match for him.

Alot of my (girl) friends/ even family know me (feelings and all) better then my girlfried will/would/ ever could. Does mean I should just go out with my cousin? But I do understand and respect what you mean Orchunter226 (I just felt like responding/typing ) But I've heard alot of Asa fans say that Asa is the best one fullstop!! which can be quite funny

I've always thought/will think Rin with Primula is the best ( yea! cant wait for the game ). Though as the (anime) Story was meant to be Rin & Asa no suprize that alot of people think they fit best as that is what the writers are trying to do. Still I would think that alot of peoples thoughts wouldn't change if things didn't end up like they did (mainly the hardcore Asa fans ) but that fact that the writers were trying to make it go Asa's way (and ened that way) made alot of people think its best that way.

I'll always think/will think Asa is best suited to Rin just as a friend that knows you inside out, kinda like Al and Ed in FMA but not as close and minus the gender. Asa's character is meant to be the Caring/older more responsible type of character so to change that would be silly. She is the mother of the group in my eyes. So no wonder she was always helping out ^^

Hmm.. thinking... thinking... well on the other hand npal does make a good point, in his last line

[roguenoir]

I hear all this talk that in the game, the Kaede path is the default one. But why didn't the follow that in the anime? Simple, they want you to buy the game to see the "true" ending.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by roguenoir

I hear all this talk that in the game, the Kaede path is the default one. But why didn't the follow that in the anime? Simple, they want you to buy the game to see the "true" ending.

Well, we've been through this before on another thread, so I'd better clarify again before this causes another flamewar. The Kaede ending is not the "true" ending - there is no true ending. It is, however, the ending you get if you don't aim for any girl in particular - this is largely due to proximity/convenience (i.e. you've lived with her for years) and the fact that there is no "no girl" ending in the game. The anime director/storywriters probably felt Asa's ending to be more dramatic (and less of a predictable overall way for the story to go). Of course, no matter which ending they choose in a show like this, you have to buy the game to see the other ways it could have turned out.

And you're bumping threads for 6 months ago - which is fine, but be aware the debate's a bit old now.

[peterchen620]

To be honest with you guys, I want to kill the script writers for ruining Kaede's bright future. It should have been Rin + Kaede by default, not Asa + Rin. However, in terms of what we've seen on how Asa helped Rin overall through the anime, it is no surprised that he will fall in love with her.

I don't have any grudge on Asa or anything, I just hold my grudges on the script writers. BURN THE DAMN SCRIPT WRITERS FOR RUINING HER FUTURE!

Also, I hate the ending credits. MY KAEDE IS A LESBIAN NOOOOOSE! We all know that isn't true, right? Guys? Hello? Umm... Ok, maybe partially. Another reason why I hate the script writers.

Originally Posted by npal

Asa was the best match for an idiot like Rin

As expected from the leader of the KKK Club and a formal member of the KKR Club. We all hate Rin, and we all love Kaede. :P I have to say... Kaede deserves a better person than Rin.

[obentou]

I definitely agree with the people who don't approve of the Asa + Rin relationship. I just finished the series, and wtf, it'd be better if he got his mind straight and paid more attention to Kaede. Them getting together would have been a much better ending. Asa should have just stayed as a close friend.... Rin is one spoiled brat. Ahh I finished the series with some hate.

[Rin-Sama]

Originally Posted by peterchen620

Also, I hate the ending credits. MY KAEDE IS A LESBIAN NOOOOOSE! We all know that isn't true, right? Guys? Hello? Umm... Ok, maybe partially. Another reason why I hate the script writers.

Um.... that was an accident if you would watch! I think they just put it in there for an "eye candy" funny moment.

[obentou]

You could literally see their saliva.... O__O

[Rin-Sama]

Originally Posted by obentou

You could literally see their saliva.... O__O

Wouldn't you cough up some spit if you fell into something unexpectedly? IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! It's not like Sia and Kaede are lesbians just becasue they had an accidental kiss.

[Js2756]

Originally Posted by peterchen620

To be honest with you guys, I want to kill the script writers for ruining Kaede's bright future. It should have been Rin + Kaede by default, not Asa + Rin. However, in terms of what we've seen on how Asa helped Rin overall through the anime, it is no surprised that he will fall in love with her.

I don't have any grudge on Asa or anything, I just hold my grudges on the script writers. BURN THE DAMN SCRIPT WRITERS FOR RUINING HER FUTURE!

Also, I hate the ending credits. MY KAEDE IS A LESBIAN NOOOOOSE! We all know that isn't true, right? Guys? Hello? Umm... Ok, maybe partially. Another reason why I hate the script writers.

As expected from the leader of the KKK Club and a formal member of the KKR Club. We all hate Rin, and we all love Kaede. :P I have to say... Kaede deserves a better person than Rin.

Bright future? Getting dumped by Rin was the best possible thing for Kaede's future. If he had stayed with her, her entire future would consist of her taking care of him due to the guilt of having treated him so horribly when they were children.

With the way the anime ended, at least now she can finally move on. Because she was dumped, she finally accepted her feelings and realized her true motivation for all the time she spent taking care of Rin. She no longer has to delude herself into doing nice things for him (prior to being dumped she had convinced herself that she had to take care of him due to guilt, not because she loved him).

I don't know, I just find that a future based off of a lie to be a terrible fate, and I'm glad that Kaede was spared from it. Perhaps at some point she would have been able to admit to herself that she finally loved him, but perhaps not.

From Rin's point of view, the main reasons I find for him staying with Kaede at the start are: laziness, he enjoys being pampered, he's deathly afraid of what would happen to Kaede if he were to leave. About that last point, Rin knows why Kaede does what she does, but he also knows that at some point she has to come to grips with the fact that she may not be able to take care of him forever. He just happened to hasten that moment when she finds out.

[Vexx]

I'll put in for the "logical win" based on the explicit premise of the show --- Sia+Nerine+Kaede for the polygamy win .... that closure might have worked.

However, its not that the Asa+Rin was a "innovative surprise ending" since the plot started telegraphing it in episode 1 ... even having Nerine point it out multiple times that Asa loved Rin (bright girl, Nerine).

Unfortunately, when they went for the Asa closure --- the transition from Kaede's arc left Asa looking like some fiend who not only trampled Kaede in her rush to Rin but showed absolutely no interest in her close friend's mental condition. Totally unlike the Asa they had spent nearly 18 episodes developing. Then they compounded this writing disaster with some of the lamest motivation during Asa's arc that I've ever seen put to film ("I'm going to die because I don't want to see my mother cry." -- I guess its okay for Ama to cry after Asa dies???).

Even if one is fond of Asa, the dialog and plot was total WTF? Asa, all the way up to Kaede's outburst at the doorway and Asa fainting -- made sense. Her scripted behavior after that made no sense.

The script of Rin and Asa's abandonment of Kaede to her nervous breakdown was so totally out of character and cruel, it completely destroyed the respect carefully developed over the first part of the series.

Perhaps they thought they were writing some Shakepearean riff where you're supposed to loathe the protagonist and his queen who turned from good to evil at the end....

Probably the most obnoxious part wasn't even the tragedy, negligence, and deceit --- that can be just good melodrama ... it was the last 15 minutes of the series where they tried to pull off the lamest "harem reset" I've ever seen. After all the pain and growth the characters went through .... they're sent back to square one "chasing Rin". I suppose that could be some kind of just desserts --- Asa forever having to watch her rearview mirror because the other girls remain in pursuit.

--------------
But.. I'm not an Asa-hater --- Here's my quick synopsis of the way I would have treated the last 5 or 6 episodes with an Asa ending:

No change up to Kaede's outburst in the hallway with Rin and Asa (frankly, the drama of Kaede's slow breakdown was dramatically brilliant).

Afterwards, have Asa actually ask about Kaede in the hospital. How's she doing, Rin? Maybe have Asa say Rin needs to address the situation with Kaede before they can move forward. (that'd be the Asa I know).

Have Rin explain to Kaede that he's decided on Asa, that Kaede needs to move on. He'll help but she needs to move on. This doesn't have to go well.... in fact, dramatically I'd expect Kaede to attempt suicide. Perhaps have her at the bridge... and *thats* where Asa arrives for their pivotal scene together ---- extend the conversation, have them cry it out together. The situation is what it is but Asa makes it clear they will *not* abandon Kaede.

And then have Kaede *move on* ... building a home with Primula, starting to notice other guys.

For the Asa arc, alter the "won't use magic" because she's afraid of the power, afraid she can't control it like her mother couldn't. She's mistakenly afraid her mother might reject her if she uses it because her mother rejected magic so strongly. Now the "won't use magic" makes some sense.

At the end, have the girls move the fsck on.... Nerine with her new social life and activities and hooking Sia along, Kaede and Primula head out shopping *for themselves* ... if we must have a "game still on", they can hurl some light comedic remarks about appearing so stellar that Asa better stay alert or Rin might get a roving eye.

If they'd done that I'd have marked the series a 10, Asa ending and all.

p.s. .... I'm not sure why Sia and Kaede kissing bothers ya'll so much. I don't think it was a complete accident so much as a bit opportunistic on Sia's part. Sia is a very adventurous little puppy and I wouldn't put it past her to be bi-curious. Kaede looks pretty astonished though
A kiss does not lesbians make.. not does it not make them lesbians.... it was a kiss.. not a sex scene.

[npal]

^ That actually reminds me of Junichi (or whatshisname) in Da Capo. In DC second season, Nemu was taking care of him and the house like a complete slave. I mean, compared to her, Kaede was slacking off Or maybe Junichi was the epitome of laziness

Actually Kaede took it pretty well for someone with a mental record and unstable psychology. The more probable scenario, which Kaede was more than capable of pulling, was killing both Rin and Asa (ok killing Rin is improbable but wishful thinking), or at the very least holding a grudge, or even seek ways to make their life a living hell (or at least Asa's, since Rin will be protected for some time by means of the "Guilt-Love" factor). Now, there's another probable scenario, Kaede's suicide. The scenario chosen actually had the least possibility of happening, considering Kaede's mental state. No mental patient I know suddenly had an epiphany and renounced his old ways.

Not that I had any faith in the script writers, ep 21 has to be THE character development massacre of the century (not that ep 18-20 Asa wasn't already a case of bad character development). There's little to no justification for all behavioral changes therein. I'll probably call it "The Shuffle Effect". If you want to see believable character interaction and development, you should watch Honey & Clover. Although H&C is more or less a masterpiece in that area, while Shuffle is just a harem anime Still, the transition was so outright fake for the 3 characters in question, it was horrible.

Kaede should've pull a Higurashi Or maybe a School Days. A harem that would've gone totally wrong. BUT it'd have been much more interesting and believable than what was given. Although I don't know whether I'd like Kaede to star in such a drama.

Oh well, at least now she can have me

Edit: Damn, Vexx got me

[Vexx]

Aye.. Honey & Clover just leaves many of these "game conversions" in the dust though I'll say Canvas 2 came a lot closer (they didn't freak out til the last couple of episodes). I'll point to H&C as an example of how good behavioral exposition can involve characters doing radically different things yet remain true to their personalities. Lamune was another game conversion anime that worked *really* well, imo whether or not you liked the path taken.

Heh, we were probably pounding on the keyboard at the same time ...

I just see no excuse for writers to get away with poor effort even when the source material is an ero-game. Every anime has a *team* of writers headed up by a senior writer whose job it is to make sure the team "stays on the same page" .... that seriously didn't happen here. It reminds me of a script Harlan Ellison wrote for Original Star Trek (eventually made into "The City on the Edge of Forever") ... it was a brilliant script --- but the characters did not act the way they'd already established in previous episodes (including such things as on-board drug dealing and addiction) ... and had to be substantially rewritten. (which pissed Ellison off but then he's usually pissed off anyway ).

edit: argh... didn't notice this was *another* necromantic thread.... I need to start paying more attention .... this thread dates from February.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Vexx

No change up to Kaede's outburst in the hallway with Rin and Asa (frankly, the drama of Kaede's slow breakdown was dramatically brilliant).

Well, for what it's worth, this is where I think they faultered. "Dramatically brilliant" or not, it was entirely out of character with the story's tone thus far and with the game, and they simply couldn't recover from the divergence. At the time, I felt it was a cheap trick to get attention; a trick that worked, of course. Had the show not have gone psycho thriller overboard, the closing arc would have made a lot more sense exactly as presented. So, rather than blame the ending (which was pretty much straight from the game), I blame the anime-invented "turn". Skip 19 & 20, and the ending's (more or less) fine for Kaede, Rin, and Asa (well, minus the inherent lameness of Asa's game ending, such as her reasons for not using magic, etc.). Sometimes resorting to cheap tricks comes at a price. But at the same time, I recognize that any attention is good attention - just think of how much less attention Shuffle would have garnered without all the controversy.

[hanxthre]

Originally Posted by Js2756

With the way the anime ended, at least now she can finally move on. Because she was dumped, she finally accepted her feelings and realized her true motivation for all the time she spent taking care of Rin. She no longer has to delude herself into doing nice things for him (prior to being dumped she had convinced herself that she had to take care of him due to guilt, not because she loved him

Whose deluting who?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the anime's final episode suggest that not only does Kaede still love Rin, she'll still do anything for him (Like waking up early in the morning hoping to make coffee for him) and has this beyond comical notion in her head that it's ok with Asa that she remain fruitlessly in love with him...I wouldn't call that a good ending for her to move on as much as eternal torture that may drive her right back to the same psychotic antics.