Is anyone getting tired of these "Summoned/Reincarnate into Fantasy World" stories?

[Myname]

Originally Posted by Esclair

I think it's the REINCARNATION into another world that's more the standard trope nowadays. The SUMMONED into another world story is a classic, and is pretty much just a literal take on the Hero's Journey. However, what makes it effective is that often the protagonist will interact with his home again, whether choosing to return or at least settle unfinished business.

The reincarnation stories on the other hand, often really never bothers with the original world again. The previous world backgrounds are almost superflous and often just there as a form of wish fulfillment. Or a way to make the protagonist 'special' without just making him outright special. He's special because he has his past experiences/memory. A few of the stories actually do well with the concept but most of them you can remove the whole reincarnation subplot and it really wouldn't matter much.

It's also not just limited to Japanese LN/WNs, tons of Chinese WNs also follow this trope.

I've read some Re:Monster and Mushoku Tensei and while I do enjoy the adventures of the MC, one of the questions I keep asking myself is... why were they reincarnated there in the first place? Is there some sort of sub plot behind their reincarnation to the new world?

In Re:Monster specifically, considering how the first chapter starts, I keep wondering why he got killed, how the girl got the knife and how his OP absorb ability came to be. It seemed like it was part of a bigger plotline but it was just forgotten.

[Greenish Growth]

Yeah, I think there have been a bit too many of those reborn/reincarnated/reset/time loop fantasy stories lately. On the other hand I enjoy reading a lot of them so I'm not complaining too much.

But I think there have also been a little too many Maou/Yuusha stories, Gamer Ability stories and Guy-with-a-powerful-new-ability-attending-a-new-school (especially a mostly female student school).

[RegalStar]

No matter how many times people use this kind of setting, it's still just setting. For me what makes or breaks a story is how it makes use of its settings, so what kind of setting it starts with is more or less irrelevant.

[IceHism]

The concept of reincarnation is okay. The problem is that they keep going into fantasy medieval time periods where they all do the same old same old. I don't really care about any reincarnation stories since it doesn't even sound interesting to me. Though i may try tate no yuusha, rokka no yuusha, mushoku tensei, or arifureta just to see what hype is about

[larethian]

Originally Posted by IceHism

The concept of reincarnation is okay. The problem is that they keep going into fantasy medieval time periods where they all do the same old same old. I don't really care about any reincarnation stories since it doesn't even sound interesting to me. Though i may try tate no yuusha, rokka no yuusha, mushoku tensei, or arifureta just to see what hype is about

Erh sorry, Rokka no Yuusha is not to be linked or put together with the self-insert isekai tensei stories.

Apparently, some of the posters are not really on the same page as the OP. We are not talking about fantasy LNs in general, but the recent surge in "summoned/reincarnation" tropes and plots. Actually, such web novels have been around in abundance for a long time; it's just that there is a recent increase in commercialization of such stories and also an increase in fan translations of such stories, leading to an increased attention to them.

[Marcus H.]

What was the light novel that sparked this kind of surge of "tensei"-themed light novels, particularly in Shousetsuka ni Narou? I'm pretty sure that there's this bestseller that caused these amateurs to latch on a particular theme like leeches, the way Shana spearheaded the "hot-blooded armed tsundere" and Kirino led the "imouto love revolution".

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

What was the light novel that sparked this kind of surge of "tensei"-themed light novels, particularly in Shousetsuka ni Narou? I'm pretty sure that there's this bestseller that caused these amateurs to latch on a particular theme like leeches, the way Shana spearheaded the "hot-blooded armed tsundere" and Kirino led the "imouto love revolution".

As I've mentioned, tensei themed web novels have been there all along. But the one that created great interest and probably led to subsequent commercializations of other similar themed titles is probably "Mushoku Tensei". Heck, it created the largest number of wannabe fan translators who used mostly machine translators

I even bought 2 volumes on bookwalker (as I like to read stuff legally if possible), and it's really not my cup of tea, to put it mildly

[Marcus H.]

So that's what the Mushoku Tensei craze is all about. Eh, I'm already swamped with light novels to catch up on, though. By the way, shall we expect more "heroes with unconventional weapons" to show up soon, considering the reception of Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari? I think Absolute Duo, with an anime airing this Winter, already had a male lead character that uses a shield.

I even bought 2 volumes on bookwalker (as I like to read stuff legally if possible), and it's really not my cup of tea, to put it mildly

Ouch, what a waste. D:

[Dr. Dahm]

Originally Posted by cyth

Yet people still consume these stories and only us "old farts" linger in this thread while the rest of the lot are having fun actually discussing the anime we're complaining over in other threads.

Frankly, this generational disconnect bothers me. It's been theorized by Azuma Hiroki, Miyadai Shinji and others. You and Dr. Dahm sound like an 80's Gundam UC fan complaining over non-UC shit from one of their works.

I'm personally of the same breed as you guys are, but I think if so many people consume (and produce!) these shit-tier stories, there needs to be a different discussion taking place, especially, how we can coexist with the new or how to reclaim the previous state. Buying the G-Reco stuff might help, I imagine! Can't change people's minds in how they consume their media, unfortunately.

Actually I'm more of an 80's Gundam UC fan that still likes most of the AU stuff in general. It's different settings, themes and ideas at play generally and a fresh start every time. I get that and accept it as long as the titles still live up to what I expect of the franchise, which only one universe setting has failed at entirely IMO. It also happens to be the most popular since the original one though, which is where I think a bit of a generational disconnect comes into play for sure.

It really just boils down to if you're going to have an alternative setting from modern day Japan and the daily grind of going to school and doing whatever else you darn well better make the most of it and come up with a fantasy setting that is distinct and plays into whatever story it is you're trying to tell. Many stories fail to do this, hence why I think the thread was made in the first place.

I feel like today's creators ought to be able to use their imagination as much as the older ones did to come up with some interesting fantasy settings and make the most out of them, but for whatever reason choose not to curiously often which makes me ask what exactly is the point and hence the whole comment about re-skinning. It's kind of like Dynasty Warriors really, I mean yeah you mix in some skins like Gundam or Legend of Zelda or One Piece or whatever but at the end of the day it's still the same formula of running around box shaped spaces mowing down hapless enemies with some crazy weapon.

Anyway I've personally tried the whole attempt to co-exist with the "new" thing and it doesn't always work so well and tends to lead to frustration so I've kind of become more of a stick to your guns and what you like kind of guy in recent months since a lot of the time those titles that are really really popular with younger generations just don't jive all that much with me and I grow very bored of the shows. It's just not worth it in the long run and I feel one shouldn't try to hard to conform to or try to develop a taste for something by forcing the issue. If you're ever going to develop a pallet for something it's just going to be something that happens naturally and just sort of clicks into place. That's been my experience more or less.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

So that's what the Mushoku Tensei craze is all about.

To put a different perspective from larethian (whose points I agree with in general), I liked Mushoku Tensei just fine when I was reading the early volume translations, which apparently came from the polished published source. When that version ended and the web novel translations set in, I quickly noticed a decline in both the quality of writing, the quality of world-building, and the quality of translation, and abandoned ship.

I wasn't super enamored with it or anything, but the early adventures were pretty fun in a D&D fantasy romp way.

I felt something similar with Arifureta, actually. I thought the first dungeon arc was fun, as it reminded me of the atmosphere of desperation and struggle from Sword Art Online's first arc. Then whatshisname Mr. Gary Stu got out, put on his black biker coat, jumped on his black bike, took up his big bad black guns (I'm sure he also has another big bad black gun there), and started beating up bitches like the big bad man he was, I figured if I didn't drop it right then I'd find myself cutting my wrist from all the edge and trying to catch reruns of Sons of Anarchy.

Arifureta fans, chill. It's satire.

So it seems I have a high tolerance of these isekai/tensei stories due to their tendency to have characters go on adventures, do fun stuff, explore the world, save a princess, all that jazz -- elements that by no means are unique to this particular template -- but I also don't appreciate the self-insert, wish fulfillment aspect, which are almost essential elements of this particular template, at least as it is being employed by what seems to be the vast majority of the stories.

Which in that sense allows me to speak from both the perspective of a fan who enjoys these types of stories and a snobbish arrogant oldfag sophisticated consumer of fantasy and anime media who enjoys lording his sophistication over people who enjoys these types of stories.

--

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There are some genres modern anime does better than 90s anime. But if there's one thing, any thing, that 90s anime did better, it's definitely fantasy, in my view.

I actually figure, as per above, that this particular boom bodes well for the return of high fantasy media in Japan outside of the JRPG stronghold. High fantasy was utterly dead in anime and shockingly rare in manga during the mid-2000's. Even the few adventure stories had strong sci-fi or mecha elements: the wonderful Eureka 7, which sent Evangelion skyboarding into the wide blue sky; the highly popular Last Exile; or that certain other series where it seemed like it was an honest fantasy until near the very end [big spoilers, please don't name it].

The still-growing popularity of VRMMO stories, the previous big trend of Heroes and Demon Lords, and this thread's topic, the reincarnation/otherworld stories, all related of course, are providing platforms for high fantasy to return in various guises, many of which quite entertaining. Outbreak Company gave a charming take, Maoyuu's author, the same as Log Horizon's, provided a trademark perceptive take on history and politics, and Hataraku Maou-sama satirized the archetypes through the mundane setting. Some of other series carrying the same themes did of course stretch the boundaries of my interest, but I can freely ignore them at my leisure.

However, cyth's point that the narrowing of influences and bandwagoning ended up producing unhappily narrowly similar stories is well noted, especially for the reincarnation/summoned stories. There's no point in quantity alone if we aren't going to get very many good stories out of a trend. Is there a sociologist building a complex, fascinating world to be seen through a reincarnation protagonist's eye? A psychologist doing a character study through the theme? A charming satirist just having fun? Or a truly great writer taking on an overused theme and make an epic out of it?

P.S. I try to be constructive once in a while. I can't always throw out pithy one-liners or assault other people's deep-seated beliefs all the time.

Originally Posted by larethian

Erh sorry, Rokka no Yuusha is not to be linked or put together with the self-insert isekai tensei stories.

I'm curious; do you happen to know how "persistent" and ubiquitous are Western fantasy-esque themes in light novels in general? Are they also the case of "always been there, but not adapted to anime because nobody cares"?

[Marcus H.]

So it seems I have a high tolerance of these isekai/tensei stories due to their tendency to have characters go on adventures, do fun stuff, explore the world, save a princess, all that jazz -- elements that by no means are unique to this particular template -- but I also don't appreciate the self-insert, wish fulfillment aspect, which are almost essential elements of this particular template, at least as it is being employed by what seems to be the vast majority of the stories.

I feel that almost every time I plunge into an anime project without knowing the source. You'd be pulled in by the names involved and the theme/s it would use in the story, but then you'll be utterly remorsed as soon as you realize that the first volume was the only thing good about the series and it's a slippery slope down quality-wise. But then, morbid curiosity sets in and you'll find yourself strapped in on a similar story from a different or same author, hoping "it gets good later on".

That's NOT to say that wallowing in deep shit just to get that particular gem is an enjoyable experience. For that I salute the monitors of Kono Light Novel ga Sugoi.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by larethian

Erh sorry, Rokka no Yuusha is not to be linked or put together with the self-insert isekai tensei stories.

Apparently, some of the posters are not really on the same page as the OP. We are not talking about fantasy LNs in general, but the recent surge in "summoned/reincarnation" tropes and plots. Actually, such web novels have been around in abundance for a long time; it's just that there is a recent increase in commercialization of such stories and also an increase in fan translations of such stories, leading to an increased attention to them.

Besides the fact that I have no idea how viewer self-insertion is even done or how its enjoyable to pretend you are a fictional character who can blow shit up. I find it difficult to see stories as self-insertion because of this perspective to begin with.

but what makes rokka no yuusha different?

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

No matter how many times people use this kind of setting, it's still just setting. For me what makes or breaks a story is how it makes use of its settings, so what kind of setting it starts with is more or less irrelevant.

This, this, and this again. Even if there are tons of shows with this setting, as long as the story is well executed there should be no reason to complain. There are enough different shows every season so the variety is there if you prefer something else.

Frankly said, I simply don't see all these 'This genre/plot is so overdone zZz' complaints. Sure they are produced in abundance but you can always watch something else

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by cyth

Yet people still consume these stories and only us "old farts" linger in this thread while the rest of the lot are having fun actually discussing the anime we're complaining over in other threads.

Frankly, this generational disconnect bothers me. It's been theorized by Azuma Hiroki, Miyadai Shinji and others. You and Dr. Dahm sound like an 80's Gundam UC fan complaining over non-UC shit from one of their works.

I'm personally of the same breed as you guys are, but I think if so many people consume (and produce!) these shit-tier stories, there needs to be a different discussion taking place, especially, how we can coexist with the new or how to reclaim the previous state. Buying the G-Reco stuff might help, I imagine! Can't change people's minds in how they consume their media, unfortunately.

Buying the G-Reco stuff is a good idea, yeah. Aside from that, there isn't much that I see can be done. The main reason I became involved in this thread was...

1) To make it clear that Myname, the OP, had a point. I know and sympathize with how many here are tired of "The Decline of Anime!" style threads. In many of them, the complaints made by us old-timers can be a bit stretched and not entirely fair of modern works. But in the specific case of the fantasy genre, this is one case where I really do think the criticism is warranted.

2) To not allow 90s fantasy anime to be used to defend these modern LN fantasy stories, since there's worlds of difference between these two groups of fantasy stories. Truly worlds of difference.

However, there may be a glimmer of hope at least...

Originally Posted by Irenicus

I actually figure, as per above, that this particular boom bodes well for the return of high fantasy media in Japan outside of the JRPG stronghold. High fantasy was utterly dead in anime and shockingly rare in manga during the mid-2000's.

That's a good point. This particular boom does create a better context for an anime studio somewhere to go with a high fantasy anime original if they're willing to take a bit of a risk and see if they can capitalize on to the current Fantasy boom.

If an anime studio tried that in the mid-2000s, their high fantasy show would probably come off as too different, and bomb. But in today's anime climate...

So yeah, that's the silver lining here. The time is ripe for an enterprising anime studio to try to make a high fantasy anime.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by IceHism

but what makes rokka no yuusha different?

...Because it's NOT a summoned/reincarnate into Fantasy World story.

Arifureta & Tate no Yuusha >> Summoned into Fantasy World
Mushoku Tensei >> Reincarnated into Fantasy World
Rokka no Yuusha >> Straight Up Fantasy World

[Utsuro no Hako]

To be fair, alternate world fantasy dominated Western SF for the longest time -- think of Dorothy getting blown to Oz on a twister, John Carter getting bonked on the head and waking up on Mars, or the Pevensies stumbling through a wardrobe to Narnia. If you check out fantasy novels from the '70s and '80s, you'll find a ton of stuff with some hapless geek finding himself in Fantasyland where he somehow becomes a hero.

Originally Posted by IceHism

The concept of reincarnation is okay. The problem is that they keep going into fantasy medieval time periods where they all do the same old same old.

Yeah, that's the problem. I don't go to a Japanese restaurant looking for pizza, and I don't watch anime for extruded fantasy product. And most of the stuff is a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy -- a novel ripping off an RPG that ripped off Record of the Lodoss War, which ripped off D&D, which ripped off Lord of the Rings.

[Marcus H.]

John Carter getting bonked on the head and waking up on Mars

When was the last time an anime character actually went to space like that anyway?
I guess the real facts about planets have killed the dreams of people about space travel.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by cyth

Yet people still consume these stories and only us "old farts" linger in this thread while the rest of the lot are having fun actually discussing the anime we're complaining over in other threads.

Frankly, this generational disconnect bothers me. It's been theorized by Azuma Hiroki, Miyadai Shinji and others. You and Dr. Dahm sound like an 80's Gundam UC fan complaining over non-UC shit from one of their works.

I'm personally of the same breed as you guys are, but I think if so many people consume (and produce!) these shit-tier stories, there needs to be a different discussion taking place, especially, how we can coexist with the new or how to reclaim the previous state. Buying the G-Reco stuff might help, I imagine! Can't change people's minds in how they consume their media, unfortunately.

Not that I want necessarily to sound disparaging, but such a discussion has to be framed carefully. You don't want to be the typical "back in my day" glory years viewer.

Rather than coexisting, I have always taken a more adaptive approach with my anime tastes. My tastes now are far more expansive than they were when I first became an anime fan. The ability to locate series with unique qualities and find enjoyment out of them is a must to be able to survive as an anime fan for me. Finding a series like Ping Pong every now and then in a season is truly what keeps me going because it's quite clear the majority of anime produced every season is formulaic and repetitive. The trends the OP points out are definitely there and sure it's insufferable, but I've never lived off the season to season most popular titles. If I was the anime fan I was when I first started out, I would've quit long ago. The industry simply doesn't make my favorite kind of shows that often.

If there is one thing I wish of the industry that I know will never happen is for it to grow up with its fanbase. Unfortunately, whether it is because the fanbase that supports it isn't terribly mature so there is no reason to change, or because they rather appeal to younger demographics for eternity, the industry just doesn't seem to have an interest in expanding its appeal. To some degree something like Shirobako is nice because it features characters that are adult or college age dealing with things other than teenage melodrama. Moreover, this is true despite keeping its moe packaging so it's almost a sort of compromise that I could live with if we saw it more often. Maybe that would be a solution to coexisting .

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I feel that almost every time I plunge into an anime project without knowing the source. You'd be pulled in by the names involved and the theme/s it would use in the story, but then you'll be utterly remorsed as soon as you realize that the first volume was the only thing good about the series and it's a slippery slope down quality-wise. But then, morbid curiosity sets in and you'll find yourself strapped in on a similar story from a different or same author, hoping "it gets good later on".

I feel the biggest problem I find with a lot of light novel series including the ever popular Sword Art Online is that they really do have 1 or 2 volume premises. Then because of commercial reasons the plot has to extended in an inorganic manner endlessly until they finally decide it's time to end the story (That is if they even have an end in sight).

[Esclair]

Publishers going after web novels and making them into LN/anime pretty opened the floodgate for new writers. Now anyone who can post to a forum can write their book and if enough people read it, they might get noticed and make it.

The problem is, I think most of these new writers who are writing web novels pretty much only read LN/WN's, so when they copy ideas from things they've read, their selection is already fairly limited.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by larethian

As I've mentioned, tensei themed web novels have been there all along. But the one that created great interest and probably led to subsequent commercializations of other similar themed titles is probably "Mushoku Tensei". Heck, it created the largest number of wannabe fan translators who used mostly machine translators

I even bought 2 volumes on bookwalker (as I like to read stuff legally if possible), and it's really not my cup of tea, to put it mildly

Well, I wasn't into MT by second volume myself. Story starts by volume three. Also I think "wannabe translators" is not exactly fair description. It's lack of PROPER ones that makes stand less knowledgable and try their best with crude tools.

Overaly, I can see why it made this "reincarnation punk" popular as I myself find it on pair if not better with Kagami writing.

Anyway while I am not bothered by this summon/reincarnated fad, it pain me that it enforce Sturgeon law so much that it makes hard find good novel among all trash.