(L) Tsujo Kogeki ga Zentai Kogeki de Ni-kai Kogeki no Okasan wa Suki desu ka?

[AB079]

Originally Posted by Gundam Meister

As a Light Novel series ever receive this from the publisher with only two volume at this rate i would not be surprise with an anime adaptation announcement in 2018

It's been 2 events for volume 1, another 2 events for volume 2, a game, and now this.

I'm with you on the anime adaptation, I can see that in the future.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Yes, it favors her to an unfair degree, but she is the one who decides in the end whether or not to abuse it. She takes both swords only because she believes that Masato would be genuinely happy. She decides who joins his party because she believes, as a mother, it is her duty to approve which girl he should grow intimate with. She decides to use the Terra Sword, twice in fact, to break up Masato from getting too close with Wise. Are you saying that these kinds of decisions she makes should be blamed on the system instead?

Her choices in this situation do not absolve the game of fault. Nor do her choices have to be accepted by masato. Saying that her choices are bringing harm to masato is excusing masato from actually addressing them

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

Her choices in this situation do not absolve the game of fault. Nor do her choices have to be accepted by masato. Saying that her choices are bringing harm to masato is excusing masato from actually addressing them

That doesn't make much sense though. If I am playing a game, but the game has an exploit that gives me an unfair advantage over the rest of the players, and I willingly abuse it, I am not responsible for my decision?

Are the other players not entitled to scream and yell at me for doing it, regardless of whether they accept my decision to abuse the exploit? You are saying my actions do not bring harm to the players and excuse the players from addressing the exploit that is only fixed by the admins or developers?

[KnightShade]

If the dev never addresses it or outright intended such an imbalance, of course not. Your operating under the basis that this game was made to be fair, which clearly isnt supported by the story itself. As far as we know, the game purposely favors moms. Do other players have to like it? No. But the whole point of the game has nothing to do with proper game balance as it was intended to bring moms and kids closer. How effective it is remains to be seen but as far as the context of this story is concerned, mamako's hax is not an exploit.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Elestia

That doesn't make much sense though. If I am playing a game, but the game has an exploit that gives me an unfair advantage over the rest of the players, and I willingly abuse it, I am not responsible for my decision?

Are the other players not entitled to scream and yell at me for doing it, regardless of whether they accept my decision to abuse the exploit? You are saying my actions do not bring harm to the players and excuse the players from addressing the exploit that is only fixed by the admins or developers?

In first place Mamako has like zero knowledge about games. If she was told that she is exploiting game mechanics, she would start look for guys in overalls so she can apologize. She is noon, not cheater.

You can't willingly exploit anything if you don't know what are you doing in first place

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

If the dev never addresses it or outright intended such an imbalance, of course not. Your operating under the basis that this game was made to be fair, which clearly isnt supported by the story itself.

A developer has to fix any bugs or exploits in a game, or the players who do abuse it constantly will ruin the gaming experience for everyone else. You are literally saying that hackers or cheaters are not at fault and should not get banned because the developers did not fix it.

As far as we know, the game purposely favors moms. Do other players have to like it? No. But the whole point of the game has nothing to do with proper game balance as it was intended to bring moms and kids closer.

And how do they intend to bring the parent and child together? BY. PLAYING. A. GAME. TOGETHER. I can't believe I have to say it this clearly, but if they can't offer an agreeable experience for both Mamako and Masato to bond within the game, it completely defeats the entire point of the project.

How effective it is remains to be seen but as far as the context of this story is concerned, mamako's hax is not an exploit.

I never said Mamako's hax is an exploit, I said, and I quote, "it favors her to an unfair degree", meaning she an unfair advantage in the game, which unsurprisingly is ruining their relationship. Why? Because Mamako, knowingly or unknowingly humiliates, embarrasses, or emasculates Masato.

[Tenzen12]

You are assuming goal of this project is having both mothers and child's bond together while enjoying game. But that NOT necessarily true.

Goal is "improve relationship between parent and child". Full stop. We don't know HOW is that supposed happen. It's this imbalance that allowed Masato finally address problem and if that lead to catharsis, it means project succeeded. Which may be plan a along.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You are assuming goal of this project is having both mothers and child's bond together while enjoying game. But that NOT necessarily true.

Goal is "improve relationship between parent and child". Full stop. We don't know HOW is that supposed happen. It's this imbalance that allowed Masato finally address problem and if that lead to catharsis, it means project succeeded. Which may be plan a along.

Of course we do. The first chapter tells us constantly. To go on an adventure together. I do not understand how you can come to any other conclusion, and suggest that isn't the entire point of having both the parent and child play together in a fantasy rpg setting that is INSIDE. A. GAME.

“Your mother has been told about the rough idea in advance. The child should remain innocent. You should just move on like that, get to know each other while adventuring together......Now then.”

“B-But......it is better not to talk about everything at first......adventuring together, accumulating various encounters, then realizing it yourself based on those is better......”

You know, mom wants to get along with Maa-kun. Adventuring with Maa-kun, talking about many things, working hard for various things, getting along well as parent and child, those are what mom thought of. That’s why......*sob*......you know?”

I don't know how much clearer it can get as that is the entire premise of the story.

Please tell me how these imbalances helps Masato addresses the problem? What problem are you talking about. Don't be vague and ambiguous. Please state it clearly. So far, it has not helped and seems to be causing more friction than the catharsis you are talking about.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Elestia

A developer has to fix any bugs or exploits in a game, or the players who do abuse it constantly will ruin the gaming experience for everyone else. You are literally saying that hackers or cheaters are not at fault and should not get banned because the developers did not fix it.

again you're operating under a false pretense not supported by the story itself as nothing has stated that mamako's hax is an abuse of the system or an exploit, in fact it's the opposite (just look at the name of the game theyre in smh). you're IRL argument is irrelevant no matter how many times you keep repeating this.


And how do they intend to bring the parent and child together? BY. PLAYING. A. GAME. TOGETHER. I can't believe I have to say it this clearly, but if they can't offer an agreeable experience for both Mamako and Masato to bond within the game, it completely defeats the entire point of the project.

this only works under the assumption that the games needs to be perfectly symmetrical for everyone in order for all players to bond, which according to most rpg's just isn't the case. and this also assumes that the only way they can bond inside the game is by interacting in an area where mamako excells in, fighting. the game exists as a plot device to force interaction, but they dont need to be doing a quest to interact.

I never said Mamako's hax is an exploit, I said, and I quote, "it favors her to an unfair degree", meaning she an unfair advantage in the game, which unsurprisingly is ruining their relationship. Why? Because Mamako, knowingly or unknowingly humiliates, embarrasses, or emasculates Masato.

Then dont use an example mentioning exploits when it's irrelevant to your own point. their relationship was already bad, but what you're saying is that it's bad because of only mamako's actions. In case you didn't know, it takes two to have a relationship.

You can't sit here and place all the blame on mamako when masato in the very first chapter threatened to disown her over a f%$#ing game. you subscribe to a very warped sense of masculinity where in order for masato as a male to feel masculine, he must be as good or better than mamako (because somehow a strong women leading the pack makes you less of a man?) at a game. And then you falsely equate that to mental abuse and over sheltering a child while on the same breath tell me that they're playing a game together. holy contradictions batman

And then you outright ignore that mamako picking out the party members was something masato himself chose to go along with. If he truly felt strongly that she was going about it the wrong way, then he failed to put his foot down. And even more, you ignore the fact that masato was the one to tell mamako that he initially didn't want wise in the party, and even before they let her in, he told mamako that wise was dishonest and prone to trickery. And it's her fault for believing him and interrupting them those two times, even though she willingly trusted masato to bunk with wise? so mamako choice's are worthy of criticism but not masato's?

Masato's 'emasculation' is nothing more than insecurity which is the result of his own inability to actually talk things out with his own mom and his lack of priorities when it comes to her. Maybe just maybe, he wouldn't feel the need to compete with her if he... you know... talked to her about things like team coordination, keeping everyone engaged in a quest ect, you know... the basics of rpg's that mamako knows nothing about that for some reason he hasn't gone over with her because muh i have to be the hero? Maybe he could define his own worth based on himself and not in comparison to his mom? you know like collector girl in the party does?

This is not to say that the blame falls solely on masato either, as mamako doesn't know how to connect with masato. But unlike masato, she is actually trying to do so in spite of her complete lack of knowledge on this setting. Maybe she would get somewhere if he were to open up about how he feels uncomfortable around his mom because of her looks... but she can't force him to do that. That's the area where masato needs to man up as it's all on him.

also

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You are assuming goal of this project is having both mothers and child's bond together while enjoying game. But that NOT necessarily true.

Goal is "improve relationship between parent and child". Full stop. We don't know HOW is that supposed happen. It's this imbalance that allowed Masato finally address problem and if that lead to catharsis, it means project succeeded. Which may be plan a along.

THIS. the sole reason for the game is the former, not the latter. it's the whole reason they are there and why it was made, in case you missed the several times in the novel where this was said. they don't need to enjoy the game in the same way that you don't need to enjoy therapy.

[Tenzen12]

Vague? Masato very unvaguely told Mamako off if you don't remember. Do you need citations? I can provide.

Sure, we were told it's for fun... by unreliable troll Shirase and from beginning it's obvious much more things are kept hidden or are mere half truths. I really don't have clue why would anyone take that at face of value.

Either way once Mamako understand she need give Masato some space, learn to trust her son judgement and Masato stop being tsun tsun all time, they will be able enjoy adventure together no matter how screwed mechanics are.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

You can't sit here and place all the blame on mamako when masato in the very first chapter threatened to disown her over a f%$#ing game. you subscribe to a very warped sense of masculinity where in order for masato as a male to feel masculine, he must be as good or better than mamako (because somehow a strong women leading the pack makes you less of a man?) at a game. And then you falsely equate that to mental abuse and over sheltering a child while on the same breath tell me that they're playing a game together. holy contradictions batman

Yes, I see you have not read anything I have posted. Please read below quote I stated last time.

Originally Posted by Elestia

When I use the word emasculate, I don't mean it in the masculine sense. I'm using it as term to describe situations where agency or a lack of control over one's decision making is superseded. Being unable to let one's child to make their own decisions, for better or for worse, and having a parent do it for them is a much more serious problem than you think.

It's why being overprotective or overdoting can lead to a negative growth in Masato and Mamako's relationship.

If you don't agree that being overprotective and overdoting over Masato, that Mamako exhibits, is bad for their relationship and counterproductive to nurturing a healthy bond between a parent and child, then I really don't have any else I can say to convince you. We'll just agree to disagree.

And then you outright ignore that mamako picking out the party members was something masato himself chose to go along with. If he truly felt strongly that she was going about it the wrong way, then he failed to put his foot down.

Did you even read the scene where Mamako oversees who joins the party? Because I am starting to think you are just blindly typing without checking.

“A-anyway! That’s not the problem here! There’s no rule that says party members need my mom’s approval to join anyway, so…”

“Actually that sounds quite interesting, so we have just added a Mommy Check system to the game.”

“WHAAA?!”

SHIRASE appeared, holding additional profiles and cards with Yes and No written on them.

The Mommy Interview system had suddenly been implemented.The furniture in the room was rearranged to make the interview possible. Mamako the interviewer and Masato the onlooker were on one side, there was a table before them and then a chair for the interviewee. Time to get started.

How can he chose to "go along with", as you put it, when there is a system in place that prevents Masato from making a decision by himself? He literally can't choose his own party members without Mamako's approval. Did you even read that part carefully?Masato had no other recourse and hope that Mamako agrees with his decision.

And even more, you ignore the fact that masato was the one to tell mamako that he initially didn't want wise in the party, and even before they let her in, he told mamako that wise was dishonest and prone to trickery.

That doesn't mean anything. That just meant Mamako only agreed on a whim. It's still one-sided. If Mamako really wanted t, she could have overruled Masato, despite his rejection initially, and have Wise join the party right then and there. It's the same the the three other party members before Porta and Wise. With the Mommy Check System system in place, Mamako has complete control over the party. It's a dictatorship.

And it's her fault for believing him and interrupting them those two times, even though she willingly trusted masato to bunk with wise? so mamako choice's are worthy of criticism but not masato's?

Again, you are not making sense or did not read the scene when you typing this out.

First off, the reason why Mamako split Wise and Masato apart with her was because she was afraid Masato was becoming more intimate with someone else other than her. When Masato was abducted by Wise she became terrified that Masato would abandon her to be with Wise instead, despite being reassured by Masato at the end of their first real fight at the end of chapter one. Is it Masato's fault that Wise abducted Masato and begged him to join his party? Of course not, so how can you expect me to criticise Masato in that situation when he did nothing wrong. Which is why I say these actions, regardless of the circumstances, is because a result of own Mamako's insecurities, not Masato's. This is why I criticise Mamako.

Secondly, when the party was at the inn and everyone was deciding how to split the rooms. Masato refused to bunk with Mamako, which is his fault, and settled on bunking with Porta next, however she was worried she might assault her. He embarrassingly denies it, and she even agrees, because she believed Masato agreed and believes that her son "does not have the courage to assault a cute girl sleeping defenselessly next to him.” But guess what? She decides to sleep with Porta instead, because Mamako knew that Masato liked Porta more than Wise, so she prevented it by having him bunk with Wise instead.

Masato's 'emasculation' is nothing more than insecurity which is the result of his own inability to actually talk things out with his own mom and his lack of priorities when it comes to her. Maybe just maybe, he wouldn't feel the need to compete with her if he... you know... talked to her about things like team coordination, keeping everyone engaged in a quest ect, you know... the basics of rpg's that mamako knows nothing about that for some reason he hasn't gone over with her because muh i have to be the hero? Maybe he could define his own worth based on himself and not in comparison to his mom? you know like collector girl in the party does?

And how do you propose he do that? I agree that talking is the major problem, but he can't even do anything in the party when he is completely useless. The few times he is able to talk is only with Wise, which Mamako denied twice. Both Wise, Porta, and especially Mamako all contribute to the party except for him. With the checks and balances in place, he has no control over anything.

This is not to say that the blame falls solely on masato either, as mamako doesn't know how to connect with masato. But unlike masato, she is actually trying to do so in spite of her complete lack of knowledge on this setting. Maybe she would get somewhere if he were to open up about how he feels uncomfortable around his mom because of her looks... but she can't force him to do that. That's the area where masato needs to man up as it's all on him.

I'd agree, but he can't control how Mamako acts when he isn't around. I'm not trying to blame everything on Mamako, believe me. But when she used the Terra Sword, because she was insecure about Wise and Masato becoming closer together I call her out on it.

also
THIS. the sole reason for the game is the former, not the latter. it's the whole reason they are there and why it was made, in case you missed the several times in the novel where this was said. they don't need to enjoy the game in the same way that you don't need to enjoy therapy.

Yes, but the game was designed from the ground up for something that both the Masato and Mamako can enjoy together. It is an integral part for them to have something to bond over. They cannot get closer in a vacuum, hence why they are so distant in the first place. They have to find something in common in order to make progress, which both you and Tenzen are trivializing. They have to interact together in some way or shape, which the game/adventure provides. They cannot bond any other way, with how the story is setup.

And yes, please provide evidence where in the story it is mentioned several times, because I'd be willing to listen, but so far you have not provided anything to change my mind or provide a compelling argument.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Vague? Masato very unvaguely told Mamako off if you don't remember. Do you need citations? I can provide.

Sure, we were told it's for fun... by unreliable troll Shirase and from beginning it's obvious much more things are kept hidden or are mere half truths. I really don't have clue why would anyone take that at face of value.

I said you are being vague, not Masato. Please in your own words point me to where, as you said, "the imbalances in the game" help Masato address the problem?

Except we have four different sources telling us the same thing. They state it several time, which I quoted as evidence, that they need to adventure together to bond, but then you discredit Shirase, the King NPC, Mamako, and Wise who all say the same thing. You are the only one saying its not true without providing any evidence. So please cite your evidence.

Either way once Mamako understand she need give Masato some space, learn to trust her son judgement and Masato stop being tsun tsun all time, they will be able enjoy adventure together no matter how screwed mechanics are. don't know how to convince you otherwise.

But Mamako can't give Masato space. That's my entire point. With the way the game is setup along with how Mamako has been acting so far, only Mamako is enjoying being with Masato.

[Tenzen12]

King and Shirase are single unreliable source. They represent "game company". Mamako posses second hand information ... from Shirase slash King.

And Wise never said it's meant to be enjoyed, she said game purpose is "get intimate with parent" She never specified form it is supposed happen.

Eitherway bonding while adventuring sound abound right, because you don't need bond over enjoyable things only. Couple therapy is not always pleasant thing.

Masato told Mamako off, because he snapped, he snapped because Mamako didn't gave him enough space to realize himself, Mamako didn't give him space realize himself because game mechanics allowed do everything out of her own power better than he ever could. This game escalated her fatal flaw into extend it couldn't be ignored anymore. If you have at least average intelligence you can realise that much without need spelling it out by just giving it thought. So please try do it next time.

[KnightShade]

@elestia
Then you are simply not using that word correctly. refer to this https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emasculate

says i didn't read what he says, literally does the same.

so masato can't plead his case to convince her otherwise because of the mommy check system? and mamako is completely incapable of listening to his pleas because of said system? because if you go on further past that passage, the exact opposite was shown to be the case.

You dont know what a dictatorship is do you? by that logic the elective branch is a dictatorship because it has the potential to override congress via veto. again, wise is the best example of how quickly masato can sway positions to his benefit if he simply put his foot done. The system cant force him to play with mamako otherwise Wise wouldn't be here.

That's only a part of it, not the whole story. Did you miss the part where she lectured Wise prior to letting her in the party based on info provided to her from masato? he judged Wise based on a gut feeling, and when it turned out be on the mark, mamako addressed it. And while her insecurity resulted in intervening those situations, she has a basis to not trust Wise around masato based on behavior Wise herself demonstrated to her in person. is she over stepping her boundraries? sure, but i wouldn't exactly blame a mother for being protective around a girl who just tried to have her adopt her to avoid making up with her mom. that type of influence is counterproductive to the reason mamako set all this up.

the problem with that are these following quotes

Spoiler for c2:

“Mom does not mind sharing the room with Wise-chan......however, if that were to happen......”

Spoiler for c2:

“Mom’s a little worried......Maa-kun also seems to be quite interested in Porta-chan......and Porta-chan is......”

it's a lose lose situation for her and yet she trusted him around Wise more than Porta despite being aware that he seems to be gelling with Wise as well.

i'd like to remind you that your calling masato useless on the basis of one fight. you must have really hated kazuma from konosuba early on huh... in fact this whole argument is reminding me of people who though kazuma sucked in the beginning and look how that turned out... We all thought Wise was useless too and yet look how they beat the slime. anyone who has played RPG's knows that there is no one DPS build that can solo clear everything. masato will get his time to shine especially since his knowledge of these games is the highest of the group. he also has the highest learning curve so he will grow faster than mamako, it's only a matter of time.

I'd like to point out that in both those cases, her intervention didn't prevent them from actually bonding, especially the second time. I'd call it cutting it short at most. but yes, she does need to better trust masato around other girls. but at the same time masato has to focus on repairing his relationship with mamako in order for her to get that. She can't improve if he doesn't or refuses to actually meet her halfway and talk things out.

they do have to interact together, that we all agree on. i just dont agree that masato needs to be on the exact same playing field in terms of game balance in order to accomplish this. he completely blocks his mom out IRL, and now the game is forcing him to be on the opposite spectrum where now he has to interact with her to get things across. are both ends of the spectrum fair? no, and that's the point here. by reversing the current dynamics, masato in this game is now subject to the very behavior he engages in IRL.

as for quotes see this

Spoiler for c1:

[Q: Will you become more intimate with your mother if you go on an adventure with her?]

【MMMMMORPG(temp) Participation Registration Form】

A booklet with such a title was placed before Mamako.

“This is......then, my application has been accepted!?”

“Yes. I judged that the mother and son of Oosuki household have fulfilled the condition for participating in this project. Therefore I will acknowledge your participation......Then, without further ado, please prepare.”

“Where is the strategy......the countermeasure for when my hero son dislikes adventuring together......”

“As if such a pinpoint strategy will be written on it. What do you think that guide book is?”

“【Knowing that your normal attack is all target double attack, your son will be delighted. You will be hugging each other as you adventure together】 was written on it, but it’s all lies! Maa-kun is not a tiny bit happy at all!”

“B-But......it is better not to talk about everything at first......adventuring together, accumulating various encounters, then realizing it yourself based on those is better......”

“......Sorry. Mom is not sure what and how to explain it. Shirase-san and others also have various circumstances, so mom doesn’t know how much she should say.”

Spoiler for c2:

“Why have our mothers accompanied us......that’s because, this game is MMMMMORPG, so......in other words, [Mama no、 Mama ni yoru、 Mama no tame no、 Mama to、Musuko moshikuwa Musume ga、Ōini nakayoku naru tame no、RPG] is the reason!”
(TL note: Mama’s, with Mama, for Mama’s sake, Mama and son/daughter, to get along better, RPG)

“This game was made for the sake of having parents and children adventure together and become more intimate. Hence the parents and children are transported together as a group, and then go on an adventure together......I don’t know how exactly was this game made and the details regarding it, but......I have confirmed one thing.”

“You cannot return to the original world if you don’t satisfy the clear condition of this game.”

“Oi oi, you serious? I never heard about this rule......Then, what is the clear condition?”

That condition was?

“For parent and child to become more intimate.”

“Good grief! Me too, when I was suddenly brought here and mama told me about this, I was so astonished that I went white-eyed! Even my snot dripped out!”

let me add that the entire criteria for selection of this game was the survey in the prologue. Shirase implied here that the only reason the adventure part exists is because

Spoiler for context:

“......Based on the survey conducted by the Cabinet Office, we concluded that many users who had played online games have wishes of ‘actually entering the game world’. Does Masato also wish for it?”

In conclusion, the adventure exists as plot devise in order to force the endgame condition to happen.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

King and Shirase are single unreliable source. They represent "game company". Mamako posses second hand information ... from Shirase slash King.

And Wise never said it's meant to be enjoyed, she said game purpose is "get intimate with parent" She never specified form it is supposed happen.

Oh my lord. SHE. SAYS. IT. RIGHT. HERE. TWICE.

“This game was made for the sake of having parents and children adventure together and become more intimate.

Hence the parents and children are transported together as a group, and then go on an adventure together......I don’t know how exactly was this game made and the details regarding it, but......I have confirmed one thing.”

Do you need her to say it three times before you actually understand? If you have a basic understanding of cause and effect, you would not have said something so stupid as "She never specified form it is supposed happen". Because she does. TWICE.

Eitherway bonding while adventuring sound abound right, because you don't need bond over enjoyable things only. Couple therapy is not always pleasant thing.

So you are agreeing that adventuring is is necessary for them to bond then? You are agreeing that adventuring together is what Shirase, the king, Mamako, and wise have been saying all along? That to get more intimate, adventuring together "sounds about right"? I'm glad that we agree. Because that is what I have been constantly arguing this whole time. Parent and child get closer by playing the game is how it's supposed to happen. Just two posts ago you said this:

Goal is "improve relationship between parent and child". Full stop. We don't know HOW is that supposed happen.

Which is it? To adventure together? Or not? Please make up your mind.

sato told Mamako off, because he snapped, he snapped because Mamako didn't gave him enough space to realize himself, Mamako didn't give him space realize himself because game mechanics allowed do everything out of her own power better than he ever could. This game escalated her fatal flaw into extend it couldn't be ignored anymore. If you have at least average intelligence you can realise that much without need spelling it out by just giving it thought. So please try do it next time.

Do you even remember what you typed before rambling incoherently about your points? I asked you to show proof about "the imbalance on the game", which you stated below:

Goal is "improve relationship between parent and child". Full stop. We don't know HOW is that supposed happen. It's this imbalance that allowed Masato finally address problem and if that lead to catharsis, it means project succeeded. Which may be plan a along.

I ask you how it helps Masato finally address the problem, but you just proved my point. IT. DOES. NOT.

Thank you for your effort. It saves me a lot of time trying to convince you, because we agree.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

@elestia
Then you are simply not using that word correctly. refer to this https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emasculate

says i didn't read what he says, literally does the same.

No, this is me not using the word correctly, which I corrected early on. It's not my fault you didn't pay attention and forgot about it. So again, it's you not reading and remembering what I said, not the other way around.

so masato can't plead his case to convince her otherwise because of the mommy check system? and mamako is completely incapable of listening to his pleas because of said system?

Sure, he can plead his case and Mamako can reject it. Guess who wins if that happens? Mamako. She has absolute power over the selection process. You are being too optimistic about it. And you know what they say about giving a person absolute power. They become corrupted. Unable to stop abusing their powers and begin justifying it.

because if you go on further past that passage, the exact opposite was shown to be the case.

You mean the part where Mamako used the Mommy Check System, rejected the thief girl, and tried to get her arrested but Masato manage to convince her otherwise? If not, please provide your citation.

You dont know what a dictatorship is do you? by that logic the elective branch is a dictatorship because it has the potential to override congress via veto. again, wise is the best example of how quickly masato can sway positions to his benefit if he simply put his foot done. The system cant force him to play with mamako otherwise Wise wouldn't be here.

What part of complete control do you not understand? You are talking about executive branch, because there is no such thing as an elective branch in government. I'll explain it.

There are three branches of government: judicial, executive, and legislative (congress). They have these things in place called the "checks and balances", which the main objective is to prevent one branch from wielding too much power over the others. How does any of that sound like a dictatorship to you? I have no idea.

On the other hand, a dictator is, and I quote from dictionary.com, "a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession. " So yes, Mamako is in a position of power similar to a dictatorship given to her by the system.

Masato isn't another branch of a government. He is a citizen under a dictatorship.
Yes. Masato CAN plead his case to Mamako. Just like how a citizen can plead with the dictator. Who knows? Maybe it's a benevolent dictator. But that citizen is at the mercy of the dictator, or as I said before, a whim. This is both laughable as a system, and for you to suggest Masato only has to plead with Mamako. And guess what kind of lives do citizens under a dictatorship live like? Hint: It's not pretty.

That's only a part of it, not the whole story. Did you miss the part where she lectured Wise prior to letting her in the party based on info provided to her from masato? he judged Wise based on a gut feeling, and when it turned out be on the mark, mamako addressed it.

Citation needed and clarification need. She lectures wise on reconciling with her mother, but decided to have her join the party as a member, not a daughter. How exactly does Mamako address it?

And while her insecurity resulted in intervening those situations, she has a basis to not trust Wise around masato based on behavior Wise herself demonstrated to her in person. is she over stepping her boundraries? sure, but i wouldn't exactly blame a mother for being protective around a girl who just tried to have her adopt her to avoid making up with her mom. that type of influence is counterproductive to the reason mamako set all this up.

You can't exactly blame her for the first time, but you can blame her the second time when Wise became depressed after seeing how powerful Mamako was. She sat down on the ground nearby and Masato came to check up on her. Even though the situation was quite harmless and quite a nice moment for the both of them to bond, Mamako still used her ability to break it up. What if Mamako continues abusing the ability? What happens if she used it because it was Porta and Masato alone together. Do you not see how much risk it is for Mamako to let insecurities get the better of her and continue to abuse the powers given to her by system?

If the positions were flipped and Masato had all the powers and did the same thing with her mom. You bet your ass I would slam him as hard as I am slamming Mamako.

the problem with that are these following quotes

Spoiler for c2:

“Mom does not mind sharing the room with Wise-chan......however, if that were to happen......”

Spoiler for c2:

“Mom’s a little worried......Maa-kun also seems to be quite interested in Porta-chan......and Porta-chan is......”

it's a lose lose situation for her and yet she trusted him around Wise more than Porta despite being aware that he seems to be gelling with Wise as well.

i'd like to remind you that your calling masato useless on the basis of one fight. you must have really hated kazuma from konosuba early on huh... in fact this whole argument is reminding me of people who though kazuma sucked in the beginning and look how that turned out...

It was two fights. The first time they fought outside the town because they had no money. The second time was with the slime in the cave. Both times Masato was useless and became depressed because Mamako overpowered everything.

I also never said I hated Masato because he was powerless. I hated how the system and Mamako make him powerless. Also, Kazuma doesn't put with the bullshit he has to deal with from his equally if not more useless party of Darkness, Megumin, or god forbid Aqua. He actually confronts everyone about their flaws and shoves it in their face with no shame whatsover and they do so as well. He actually has a healthy relationship with his entire party unlike Masato and Mamako.

We all thought Wise was useless too and yet look how they beat the slime. anyone who has played RPG's knows that there is no one DPS build that can solo clear everything. masato will get his time to shine especially since his knowledge of these games is the highest of the group. he also has the highest learning curve so he will grow faster than mamako, it's only a matter of time.

I'd like to point out that in both those cases, her intervention didn't prevent them from actually bonding, especially the second time. I'd call it cutting it short at most. but yes, she does need to better trust masato around other girls. but at the same time masato has to focus on repairing his relationship with mamako in order for her to get that. She can't improve if he doesn't or refuses to actually meet her halfway and talk things out.

they do have to interact together, that we all agree on. i just dont agree that masato needs to be on the exact same playing field in terms of game balance in order to accomplish this. he completely blocks his mom out IRL, and now the game is forcing him to be on the opposite spectrum where now he has to interact with her to get things across. are both ends of the spectrum fair? no, and that's the point here. by reversing the current dynamics, masato in this game is now subject to the very behavior he engages in IRL.

as for quotes see this

Spoiler for c1:

[Q: Will you become more intimate with your mother if you go on an adventure with her?]

【MMMMMORPG(temp) Participation Registration Form】

A booklet with such a title was placed before Mamako.

“This is......then, my application has been accepted!?”

“Yes. I judged that the mother and son of Oosuki household have fulfilled the condition for participating in this project. Therefore I will acknowledge your participation......Then, without further ado, please prepare.”

“Where is the strategy......the countermeasure for when my hero son dislikes adventuring together......”

“As if such a pinpoint strategy will be written on it. What do you think that guide book is?”

“【Knowing that your normal attack is all target double attack, your son will be delighted. You will be hugging each other as you adventure together】 was written on it, but it’s all lies! Maa-kun is not a tiny bit happy at all!”

“B-But......it is better not to talk about everything at first......adventuring together, accumulating various encounters, then realizing it yourself based on those is better......”

“......Sorry. Mom is not sure what and how to explain it. Shirase-san and others also have various circumstances, so mom doesn’t know how much she should say.”

Spoiler for c2:

“Why have our mothers accompanied us......that’s because, this game is MMMMMORPG, so......in other words, [Mama no、 Mama ni yoru、 Mama no tame no、 Mama to、Musuko moshikuwa Musume ga、Ōini nakayoku naru tame no、RPG] is the reason!”
(TL note: Mama’s, with Mama, for Mama’s sake, Mama and son/daughter, to get along better, RPG)

“This game was made for the sake of having parents and children adventure together and become more intimate. Hence the parents and children are transported together as a group, and then go on an adventure together......I don’t know how exactly was this game made and the details regarding it, but......I have confirmed one thing.”

“You cannot return to the original world if you don’t satisfy the clear condition of this game.”

“Oi oi, you serious? I never heard about this rule......Then, what is the clear condition?”

That condition was?

“For parent and child to become more intimate.”

“Good grief! Me too, when I was suddenly brought here and mama told me about this, I was so astonished that I went white-eyed! Even my snot dripped out!”

let me add that the entire criteria for selection of this game was the survey in the prologue. Shirase implied here that the only reason the adventure part exists is because

Spoiler for context:

“......Based on the survey conducted by the Cabinet Office, we concluded that many users who had played online games have wishes of ‘actually entering the game world’. Does Masato also wish for it?”

In conclusion, the adventure exists as plot devise in order to force the endgame condition to happen.

I'm tired. Dead like. I have spent way too much time writing out responses, so I will just summarize my points.

I believe that it is dangerous who the game company to give so much power and support to the parent only. It disrupts the power balance in the relationship and creates and even bigger gap between them. If a child cannot make his own decisions and has no control, he will not be able to respect himself much less the parent. Therefore, the current system designed by the game company is flawed. At worst, too much power given to a parent without safeguards to prevent abuse will inevitably cause a deterioration between the parent and child. Both parties must come together as equals in order to truly bond and become more intimate.

[Tenzen12]

OK @Elestia I give up. I spelled everything out to you and if you are still not getting it up, it's your own fault. I recommend you to reread whole conversation from beginning until you became able understand on your own, because I am not gonna explain myself anymore.

[Elestia]

I know right? It's funny how putting a little effort in spelling out everything, ends up with you agreeing with all my points in the end.

You didn't know how a parent and child was supposed to bond? Turns out, unsurprisingly, as I, Shirase, Wise, the King NPC, and Mamako have all been saying from the very beginning, its by adventuring together. You even said, and I quote:

Eitherway bonding while adventuring sound abound right, because you don't need bond over enjoyable things only. Couple therapy is not always pleasant thing.

And when you made the point that:

It's this imbalance that allowed Masato finally address problem and if that lead to catharsis, it means project succeeded. Which may be plan a along.

Your literally turned 180 degrees in your argument and actually made the effort to support my point. That the imbalances of the system actually hurts Mamako and Masato's relationship with your next post.

sato told Mamako off, because he snapped, he snapped because Mamako didn't gave him enough space to realize himself, Mamako didn't give him space realize himself because game mechanics allowed do everything out of her own power better than he ever could. This game escalated her fatal flaw into extend it couldn't be ignored anymore. If you have at least average intelligence you can realise that much without need spelling it out by just giving it thought. So please try do it next time.

Do you see how much progress you have made? You grudgingly accepted in the end. I am proud of you.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Elestia

I'm tired. Dead like. I have spent way too much time writing out responses, so I will just summarize my points.

I believe that it is dangerous who the game company to give so much power and support to the parent only. It disrupts the power balance in the relationship and creates and even bigger gap between them. If a child cannot make his own decisions and has no control, he will not be able to respect himself much less the parent. Therefore, the current system designed by the game company is flawed. At worst, too much power given to a parent without safeguards to prevent abuse will inevitably cause a deterioration between the parent and child. Both parties must come together as equals in order to truly bond and become more intimate.

as i feel the same way, allow me to do the same.

I believe that the game itself exists as a form of therapy, and that people can't come together as equals without understanding each other first. I don't entirely disagree with the crux of your point, as perhaps later on in the story the game can provide more balance as the relationship improves, but i believe that it is pivotal that masato realizes the parallels between how distant mom is to him in the game and how distant he is to her IRL. we may not agree that the game was made in a way that encourages that, but how this game will effect their relationship remains to be seen

so until then, i'll leave it at that.

[Tenzen12]

No it doesn't hurt their relationship. It helped them. So as I said: read it as many time you need until you finally get what the hell I am talking about as now you even starting putting words in my mouth.

Edit: alright I will try once last time explain certain basic concept. If you are unable get even this one you are lost cause.

-Ignoring problem = bad for relationship.
-Talking about problem = good for relationship.