The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 9]

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Seems somewhat tacky to buy something purely because allot of people hate it.

Yes, I know -- I buy anime all the time.

(Of course, that's not the only reason, but still...)

[GMT]

Time for the wrap-up. This episode, by itself, would get a 7/10. It felt . . . rushed. Sure, I know they did it so they could give Kyon more time to roll the hallucinogeneriffic stock footage and think of something to say to Haruhi. The yukatas from the short story were a nice touch, and the animation and humor are as good as anything we've seen from this arc. Sugita's voicing of Kyon was made of win as well, and saves this episode from being given a 6. But, choosing to start from the beginning as they did, they really had to rush through this episode to get to the non-"EPIC KYON FAIL" ending. And, admittedly, the "EPIC KYON WIN" ending was epic. I was at the edge of my seat when Haruhi was just about to walk out the door.

In a way, it's good they had other Endless Eight episodes to drag things out enough that the viewers wouldn't mind the rushed feel of this episode, simply because it meant that the arc was finally ending. Most of this episode's impact didn't come so much from the episode itself, but from the one SOL and the six EPIC KYON FAILs that came before it. Which brings me to my actual rating, as now, I intend to rate the whole arc. Do we have a masterful stroke of marketing genius on our hands, or a prime example of corporate buffoonery? Devout Haruhiists all over the world are screaming like schoolgirls right now, and snarky Haruhiists are preparing offerings to apologize for their wavering faith. And it did sorely test the faith of the Haruhiists. Eight was probably as many episodes as they could wring out of this arc without ensuring a mass-desertion of the core fanbase, and while ensuring that the casual viewer wouldn't have missed too much if they came back to Haruhi after a couple weeks of watching baseball highlights.

So, does the multiple E8 concept work? Absolutely. The emotional payoff outweighed Kyon's humdrum solution to the problem. They could've trimmed a couple episodes from the arc without sacrificing the emotional high that came after the carefully cultured sense of despair, and would've avoided a lot of the growing indifference and arc-fatigue that probably robbed the arc of a lot some of its impact. As a marketing stunt, how well it does will depend on what they do with the rest of the season. If they handle that very well, those people who went out and smashed their collections of Haruhi merchandise may well sheepishly go back and buy replacements . . . effectively meaning the merchandisers get paid twice. Yet, arc-fatigue may keep more than a few people from coming back.

So, the follow-up. Endless Eight was a good marketing idea, and a bold artistic gamble. But there is definitely such a thing as too much of a good thing. So my score for the whole arc is 5/10.

[typhonsentra]

No I understand collecting for the sake of completion just fine. That's actually part of what upsets me about this whole thing. I mean, I don't think I'd ever get any kind of enjoyments from the middle two discs (2 and 3 of this arc) whatsoever, if I were to buy them they'd sit there and collect dust, I'd be buying them just to have them and that's like, $140+ down the drain for something I don't like nor desire, but if I wouldn't want to skip them and just buy the first and the last only. So if anything it just makes me give up on buying any of them. I just kind of view this whole season as being similar to Minami-ke Okawari (Well, I gave up on that one after one episode), it's killed a lot of my enthusiasm for the whole franchise. I still watched Okaeri but then again, I watch a lot of things.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I just kind of view this whole season as Minami-ke Okawari all over again.

Should pick up again with the next few eps.

Even if they're crap.

[Voitan]

This is a mediocre episode.

I don't see how this episode is perfect, considering there are MUCH better episodes in the series by several magnitudes more than this arc's ending episode.

[Kikuchi]

I'm glad it finally ended.

This last episode wasn't particulary good, though. Nothing horrible, but it wasn't as memorable as, say, the second of the arc, which I just found spot on, ending aside.

6/10 for this episode, I'll refrain from giving any score for the whole arc, which I found utterly stupid.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

No I understand collecting for the sake of completion just fine. That's actually part of what upsets me about this whole thing. I mean, I don't think I'd ever get any kind of enjoyments from the middle two discs (2 and 3 of this arc) whatsoever, if I were to buy them they'd sit there and collect dust, I'd be buying them just to have them and that's like, $140+ down the drain for something I don't like nor desire, but if I wouldn't want to skip them and just buy the first and the last only. So if anything it just makes me give up on buying any of them.

Well, for what it's worth, they've marketed it in such a way that even "self-respecting" collectors can duck out with them being technically "filler" volumes (5.1, 5.999, etc.), and pick up again when the next season rolls around.

(Though I suppose I should say that I'm not really collecting for the sake of completion either, but that is part of it. When you've already come this far, what's a little bit further... )

[Heminga13]

Originally Posted by Voitan

This is a mediocre episode.

I don't see how this episode is perfect, considering there are MUCH better episodes in the series by several magnitudes more than this arc's ending episode.

Everyone differs on what makes them like an episode.

For me, I was anxiously watching the whole thing, wondering if this time would be the time the loop would end. Now, I was 100% sure it would end this episode going in anyway, but as soon as the episode started a sneaky 1% transferred over to me thinking it wouldn't. After worrying the whole time and finally seeing Kyon break the loop, I was genuinely happy and relieved. For me, the emotional investment I have in an episode is the biggest factor that determines what makes an episode great. And this episode delivered that in spades. ...or should I say a royal flush?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The Newtype article doesn't really suggest anything of the sort. Of course people will be curious to know when Endless Eight will end -- that was part of the game they've been playing all along. Reporting on this is pretty natural. It's certainly not some sort of "mea culpa", any more than their blog post about it was. Of course they know, but why apologize? This is exactly what they wanted to accomplish -- they created drama. And then they advertised the fact that it was over so that everyone who ducked out for a while until it was over would know it's okay to come back. "Just as planned" indeed.

What's weird is that they do this without realizing that their reaction is the joke. You've been manipulated all this time to be pissed off because you take the show too personally.

Has this ever not been the case with Haruhi, either directly or indirectly? How many pages and pages of discussion were there about episode order? How about that Ontology thread? Or the genderbending thread, which is probably one of the largest threads on this board? Haruhi is meta; it's a phenomenon. The content is almost just a formality at this point (especially given that, other than the delivery of this arc, there hasn't been any new content for years).

What I've had faith in is the fact that Haruhi fans are dedicated enough that, once the filler arc was over, people would come back. And because of that, the sales of this particular set of DVDs that people are so worried about are actually pretty unimportant over the long term, because there's a lot more to go. Kadokawa and Kyoto Animation simply realized this, and took advantage of this "trick" as a way of prolonging this season in anticipation of a future season three.

I'm going to buy them, but it's actually not because I'm such a huge Haruhi fan, or because I'm such a huge fan of this story arc (though I've always said they're not worth all the rage they get either). Buying R2 DVDs at those prices is about collecting, not really about the content. That won't make sense to most people around here, but just think about it -- this is the Internet. If all I cared about was the content, I could easily get it. If anything, I'll just laugh when the sales come through not nearly as devastated as people think they "rightfully should be", and it becomes yet another case of "those otaku" being idiots/retarded/brain-dead/stupid/etc. etc. etc. That alone is nearly reason enough to buy it. If you can't be accepted, at least be incomprehensible to those on the outside.

So I've got a question. Why have you turned the defence of this whole arc into such a cause to the point where you have tried to (in my eyes) shape the form of the discussion that has been taken up on it? To get people to in your words "come back to Haruhi"? Is it because you geniunely liked it (or needed to like it) and wanted other people to like it any way you could find how, or was it just because you wanted to take up another side of things and be an "outsider"? The way you are putting things it's always seemed like the latter.

To me it's not THAT important that people understand, appreciate/dislike, praise/dismiss what really come down to theories on this arc (although I've always liked people to try and see things my way), or why the DVD's will sell anyway, though I have brought up the whole DVD issue myself. It'd be nice if people prepared themselves to avoid pointless raging, but still I think people need to make up their own minds about all of this in a neutral sense. Some people take content into account, others don't, and some people are less forgiving then others, while some people just prefer to ride the roller coaster the way it was designed. As long as their reflections aren't borne out of ignorance or come from some form of thought then I don't think there's any wrong way to think about this arc that can't be understood and accepted by others.

To state my opinion and theory on all of this, I think it was designed to be meta-referential, but that it was executed quite poorly and came off as gimmicky instead. Kadokawa/Kyoani obviously felt that they needed to make use of an 8 gimmick because of the stories title, but didn't really bother to think if the arc actually warranted 8 episodes or whether perhaps that was going overboard. In other words they seem to have developed tunnel vision in getting towards that magic 8 number and failed to see the drawbacks of the idea. They expected fans to go "Oh 8 episodes for endless 8, I get it, very clever", and maybe a lot of the Japanese fans did, but elsewhere not so much.

Then again all of this comes from somebody who doesn't feel obligated to appreciate everything Haruhi and Kyoani throws at us so I might be out of the loop so to speak.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

It was Kadokawa or Kyoani who ordered 8 episodes ?
I saw a news before , Kadokawa who apologise and said that it should be around 2 episodes and it was Kyoani who kept with more .

Kadokawa and Kyoani are both on the production committee. Someone from one of those two staffs came up with this idea and somehow the committee passed it.

As for the apology and the 2 episode thing, that was Yamamoto Yutaka who was formerly with Kyoani. In response, Kyoani basically said "He has nothing to do with us now."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The Newtype article doesn't really suggest anything of the sort.

The Newtype article is an unprecedented move. Kaioshin is correct there. For KyoAni/Kadokawa to go as far as putting out that article indicates that they knew that they had to do something to placate negative fan reaction to Endless Eight. In other words, they're admitting that Endless Eight was a failure, at least when it comes to making your customers happy - which ought to be one of the highest goals of any seller, shouldn't it?

Of course people will be curious to know when Endless Eight will end -- that was part of the game they've been playing all along. Reporting on this is pretty natural. It's certainly not some sort of "mea culpa", any more than their blog post about it was. Of course they know, but why apologize? This is exactly what they wanted to accomplish -- they created drama. And then they advertised the fact that it was over so that everyone who ducked out for a while until it was over would know it's okay to come back. "Just as planned" indeed.

The fact that Haruhi was back on the air created more than enough buzz and drama all on its own. And it was positive buzz and drama. Endless Eight took that buzz and turned it into overwhelmingly bad publicity.

That is not a good marketing approach, relentlessflame.

What's weird is that they do this without realizing that their reaction is the joke.

No, the content is the joke. Eight episodes of the same basic narrative is a joke in and of itself. Negative fan reaction to that is a simple common sense fan reaction... It's simply low quality entertainment.

You've been manipulated all this time to be pissed off because you take the show too personally.

No, I haven't been manipulated. I would have watched and commented on these episodes whether or not they had been Endless Eight. In fact, outside of Anime Suki and YouTube, Endless Eight has had the effect of me hyping Haruhi less than what I normally would have.

If these last eight episodes had all been on par with Season 1 quality, I would have been talking a great deal about Haruhi on boards and sites off of this one - as is, I've had very little to say because Endless Eight leaves you with very little to say to people who aren't hardcore fans.

Has this ever not been the case with Haruhi, either directly or indirectly?

No, it hasn't. Metacommentary is not what sold the first season Haruhi DVDs.

How many pages and pages of discussion were there about episode order?

A paltry number compared to the pages of discussion dedicated to content evaluations of the show. And it should be noted that the DVDs had the episodes in chronological (in-canon chronological) order.

How about that Ontology thread? Or the genderbending thread, which is probably one of the largest threads on this board?

The popularity of these threads are, to a great extent, based upon the appalling lack of new content for this show from late '06 to early '09. In other words, they're prominent, to a significant extent, due to the lack of new official content being available for fans to talk about.

Actually, a case can be made that KyoAni/Kadokawa have dropped the ball in not trying to take advantage of the genderbended phenomena.

That metacommentary is by no means a good sign, because it shows that there's no content out there to be talked about, and hence bought and paid for.

Haruhi is meta; it's a phenomenon. The content is almost just a formality at this point (especially given that, other than the delivery of this arc, there hasn't been any new content for years).

The content is what you actually sell. It is by no means a formality.

What I've had faith in is the fact that Haruhi fans are dedicated enough that, once the filler arc was over, people would come back. And because of that, the sales of this particular set of DVDs that people are so worried about are actually pretty unimportant over the long term, because there's a lot more to go. Kadokawa and Kyoto Animation simply realized this, and took advantage of this "trick" as a way of prolonging this season in anticipation of a future season three.

Building anticipation for a future season three with a good buzz (which was quite possible and attainable) would be far better than building anticipation with a bad buzz.

Also, a simple anime original filler arc would have prolonged the season (if simply stretching things out was the goal), and would have almost certainly been preferable (both to fans, and from a marketing standpoint) to 8 repeating episodes.

JC Staff can do pretty good filler arcs. I should hope that KyoAni is not incapable of them...

[DJLowrider]

GAR Kyon ordering around the SOS-Dan and having Haruhi cave (in her own way, of course) to his demand to help him finish his homework was epic. I don't give a rat's ass about all the nonsense everyone has spewed over this arc, I found it fun and this was a great way to end it. 10/10 for me. Now on with the show!

[-Sho-]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Kadokawa and Kyoani are both on the production committee. Someone from one of those two staffs came up with this idea and somehow the committee passed it.

As for the apology and the 2 episode thing, that was Yamamoto Yutaka who was formerly with Kyoani. In response, Kyoani basically said "He has nothing to do with us now."

Ah yeah you are right its Yamamoto .
Wow , Kyoani was straight ... damn fail ..

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The Newtype article is an unprecedented move. Kaioshin is correct there. For KyoAni/Kadokawa to go as far as putting out that article indicates that they knew that they had to do something to placate negative fan reaction to Endless Eight. In other words, they're admitting that Endless Eight was a failure, at least when it comes to making your customers happy - which ought to be one of the highest goals of any seller, shouldn't it?

I think it's important to point out that it's the Japanese way of doing it. It has to do with a cultural belief in saving face. You want to admit a failure, but you don't want to do so directly to avoid embarassment for everybody involved. To admit a failure could be seen as a loss to the fans face and parts of the production commitee as well. It's very taboo and very impolite. Basically when Yamamoto apologized for Kyoani over Endless Eight that was actually inconceivably impolite by Japanese cultural standards. He had a point, but still, huge no-no in how he stated it.

JC Staff can do pretty good filler arcs. I should hope that KyoAni is not incapable of them...

Err....I have to say, I have actually yet to see an original arc idea or deviation from Kyoani that hasn't been extremely weak in some regard. I really think they should stick to adaptation until they get someone else like Yamamoto since they are clearly stronger on that front by leaps and bounds.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I think it's important to point out that it's the Japanese way of doing it. It has to do with a cultural belief in saving face. You want to admit a failure, but you don't want to do so directly to avoid embarassment for everybody involved. To admit a failure could be seen as a loss to the fans face and parts of the production commitee as well. It's very taboo and very impolite. Basically when Yamamoto apologized for Kyoani over Endless Eight that was actually inconceivably impolite by Japanese cultural standards. He had a point, but still, huge no-no in how he stated it.

Good point. So the Newtype article can't just come out and say "Sorry, fans, we screwed up", but instead it's more of a *nudge, nudge, wink, wink* "You can get excited now, fans, because the arc is reaching its climax!"

As for Yamamoto, I think he made the apology there for the sake of the international market - he realized it would go over well with the foreign market. But, yes, in his own country, big no-no.

[Tyabann]

I don't care that I had to suffer through two months of the same pure, utter shit to get to it: The ending of this episode was incomparably epic.

Catha-riffic!

No, I don't care if I look like a hypocrite, this episode deserves a ten. Why?

Because of the combination of Sugita being Sugita, the S1 camera work and lighting, and the BEST ENDING POSSIBLE.

It was so Eva. And the music. Dear god the music.


My only complaints are: 1) The animation was still subpar up until the final scenes, and 2) WHERE'S MY SOUSHITE, ITSUMO NO FUUKEI!?

But those don't detract from the EPIC ENDING TO END ALL ENDINGS. I'm so surprised KyoAni managed to make it awesome instead of suck.

10/10.

[aorta]

If there ever is an announcement for a 3 hour Haruhi theatrical movie, please proceed with caution.

[bhl88]

lol guess that means I don't have to finish my video XD...

Endless Eight will not end (BGM: Airman will not die)

[siber222000]

wow i can't believe it's over, it's so amazing lol. i think this episode deserves 10 for kyon stepping up his game, sheesh. i dunno how to explain this.. god, i'm pretty damn happy right now

[mokuseimaru]

I only had minute to put in a response before, but I'll give a more extended thought now that I have the time. I haven't seen the episode itself, so I won't say anything about that. I have one thing I want to get through.

My problems with this arc aren't over.

For one, the entire concept was a ploy either to stretch out the series or promote a "true" second season; in either case, money was the driving factor. If the fanbase just goes crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating, then they were right to think we are idiots. Airing the first season out of order was one thing, but Endless Eight, Nice Boat, and three years of intermittent trolling have done nothing to make the show any more interesting. Is Haruhi at all a more interesting show because of a bunch of stunts?