Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Random Wanderer]

Her eyes look terrible though, whoever drew them should be fired immediately.

Seconded. While she tended to have a bit of a creepy look going on in the manga, her eyes were still perfectly normal eyes, not drawn any differently from anyone else's. It's... hard to take her seriously like this.

It's still stupid for a spectator sport to allow invisible attacks though. If they let someone pulls a trick like that in the finals, they will lose all credibility. Of course they clearly don't give a damn about competitive balance, with the rules favouring heavily armed and armoured, elemental bombardment or flying types over pure martial artists. And why are her familiars allowed in the ring, but permanent summons are not?

I can't speak for the familiars but once we actually saw Black Curtain used in the manga it didn't do what it was shown doing here. What it did do was very visible, and yes highly disturbing and terrifying to anyone who wasn't expecting it, so it would make sense for it to have freaked out her opponent. But it wasn't a terror spell.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Seconded. While she tended to have a bit of a creepy look going on in the manga, her eyes were still perfectly normal eyes, not drawn any differently from anyone else's. It's... hard to take her seriously like this.



I can't speak for the familiars but once we actually saw Black Curtain used in the manga it didn't do what it was shown doing here. What it did do was very visible, and yes highly disturbing and terrifying to anyone who wasn't expecting it, so it would make sense for it to have freaked out her opponent. But it wasn't a terror spell.

I guess it's a Safe for Work version of what Black Curtain actually does. Because I don't think Black Curtain can be safely showed on TV...

Functionally though, I think it could be worked in to have a similar effect. Even if you have the fortitude to resist the terror effect, being shut in an illusion world will still be a substantial inconvenience, and a good way for Fabia to limit the number of combatants she has to face temporarily (a form of Crowd Control).

[Triple_R]

Solid ending episode for Cour 1. It handled the aftermath of the Einhart/Corona match very well, showed some good scenes of new established characters, introduced a brand new character, and did a good job of building up anticipation for the first big matches of Cour 2.

I'm glad that Einhart displayed some awareness and guilt over how she's crushing her opponents' dreams. She's so strongly focused on her personal motivations that she can at times come across as losing sight of other people and what motivates them. It's good to see her break through these blinders, and display some real empathy, particularly given that Corona's motivations were highly sympathetic and easy to understand.

It's good to see that Corona took her defeat gracefully. And Nove's overall handling of it all was very good. Nove certainly makes a good coach and mentor.


Fabia's an interesting character. Its neat to see a very different sort of magic-user like her in the Nanoha-verse - Someone who uses very dark psychic-based assaults.

I agree with the criticism of Fabia's eyes, though I wonder if her eyes looking like that is part of the point. I think Fabia is supposed to come across as creepy and eerie, and the weirdly-designed eyes do add to that for me. It makes her less visually appealing in a more general sense, but for the role that she's playing, maybe it fits well.

I certainly felt very sorry for Fabia's opponent - What a truly terrible way to lose in a competition of this sort. The squash matches in this show tend to be pretty brutal for the losers, but Fabia's victory was particularly harsh for the loser of that match.

[Random Wanderer]

Fabia's an interesting character. Its neat to see a very different sort of magic-user like her in the Nanoha-verse - Someone who uses very dark psychic-based assaults.

See now, people get a completely wrong impression of Fabia's powers thanks to this change, too. All of her attacks followed a very specific theme in the manga, which was quite suited to the western-style witch she takes inspiration from. And here they are screwing that up.

I'm glad that Einhart displayed some awareness and guilt over how she's crushing her opponents' dreams. She's so strongly focused on her personal motivations that she can at times come across as losing sight of other people and what motivates them. It's good to see her break through these blinders, and display some real empathy, particularly given that Corona's motivations were highly sympathetic and easy to understand.

That's the nature of this sort of competition. Everyone comes to the tournament with their own hopes and dreams of winningl their own reasons for wanting to do so. Yet only one can go on from each match. For one person to win, another person has to lose. To paraphrase a manga that I never finished reading, in this tournament one's hands are only big enough to carry one's own dreams. It is up to you to carry them. No matter how much someone else's dream might tug at your heart, how much you want to help, your hands are not big enough to carry their dreams as well. It is up to them to carry their dreams forward.

Certainly it is sad, and the dreams of those defeated should not be dismissed or passed by without a look, but you cannot let yourself become trapped in sadness because you chose to carry your own dream forward rather than drop it and try to help someone else carry theirs at your own expense.

...And now that I've waxed eloquent, my point will be rendered null and void, as the remaining members of Team Nakajima will take it upon themselves to carry the dreams of their defeated comrade with them as they go forward. Still, I hope the idea comes across.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

...And now that I've waxed eloquent, my point will be rendered null and void, as the remaining members of Team Nakajima will take it upon themselves to carry the dreams of their defeated comrade with them as they go forward.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with being team-focused and not just individual-focused. So within a team context, I honestly disagree with the manga that you quoted. I don't see anything wrong with an individual carrying the dreams of the full team that s/he belongs to. Some individuals are quite capable of this. Pro sports often has "Team Captains", even at the highest professional level.

Your reply was generally well-written, but I also think you overreacted to what I wrote. I never advocated Einhart getting "trapped in sadness". I advocated her having a greater sense of self, and of the world around her, and of other people. A greater sense that goes beyond a very narrow focus on "being the strongest!" I'm glad that Einhart isn't just a flat character focused purely on "being the strongest". I'm glad she's building meaningful personal relationships that go beyond that desire alone. I'm glad she's becoming a more well-rounded character.

To me, this is a very uncontroversial and common viewpoint. So I'm surprised by your response to it.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with being team-focused and not just individual-focused. So within a team context, I honestly disagree with the manga that you quoted. I don't see anything wrong with an individual carrying the dreams of the full team that s/he belongs to. Some individuals are quite capable of this. Pro sports often has "Team Captains", even at the highest professional level.

Your reply was generally well-written, but I also think you overreacted to what I wrote. I never advocated Einhart getting "trapped in sadness". I advocated her having a greater sense of self, and of the world around her, and of other people. A greater sense that goes beyond a very narrow focus on "being the strongest!" I'm glad that Einhart isn't just a flat character focused purely on "being the strongest". I'm glad she's building meaningful personal relationships that go beyond that desire alone. I'm glad she's becoming a more well-rounded character.

To me, this is a very uncontroversial and common viewpoint. So I'm surprised by your response to it.

I paraphrased, note, not quoted. The manga in question involves people in teams of two, and the original anaology involved how each person only has two hands: one to carry their own dreams, and one to carry their sword-sister's. The main character was conflicted about trying to win a fight against someone, because that person risked suffering serious consequences if she lost. However, the main character was also fighting for something very important, and by letting her heart waver she was risking that. Her partner used the analogy to help her focus by showing her that, in the battle, her responsibility was to carry her own dream and the dream of her partner. She did not have enough hands to try to carry the dreams of someone else, and if she tried she would be failing not just herself, and not just the people she was fighting for, but the partner who had entrusted her own dreams to her.

It's been years since I read it, and I never finished it, so I may be getting some details wrong. I'm also probably not doing it justice. You'd probably have to read it to understand why the advice was truly applicable. Look up Hayate X Blade (or Hayate Cross Blade, as it's sometimes called).

I'm not trying to suggest that Einhart's situation is anything that deep, or the consequnces that great. I'm merely saying that this is a competition. Einhart has taken it upon herself to win it, and that is going to mean forcing a lot of other people to lose. There is plenty of value in being aware of them and how losing hurts them, but if Einhart, or anyone really, intends to win, they're going to have to decide that their own reasons for wanting to win are more important than their opponent's. Thus, "they can only carry their own dreams."

I am not trying to negate what you said, nor counter it. I'm merely trying to expand on it in a direction that I think is worth remembering.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I am not trying to negate what you said, nor counter it. I'm merely trying to expand on it in a direction that I think is worth remembering.

I get what you're saying. Maybe I should elaborate some on my own points.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a competitor who is firmly focused on her/his own personal dreams and aspirations, and doesn't concern herself/himself much with the dreams and aspirations of other competitors. In certain contexts and/or with certain characters, I'm fine with this.

In the specific case of Einhart, though, I think its good that we see her think some about the dreams and feelings of her competitors, due to her pre-tournament characterization.

Even prior to the current tournament, Einhart has consistently maintained a laser-like focus on getting stronger, and on being the strongest that she can be. She desires that strength not for some particular practical purpose, but to satisfy a deep personal longing based on the ancient memories that she holds. This is fine for a starting point, but I think its best for Einhart's sense of herself and of her place in the world to become wider than this alone.

I sometimes get a sense that maybe Einhart is too caught up in the past, in the ancient memories that she holds. It's understandable that Einhart is this way, but I hope she can move beyond it, and embrace the world as it is, not as it was in her memories.

Einhart showing empathy for Corona strikes me as a step in the right direction, in this regard, for Einhart specifically. Einhart is valuing her friends and caring about her friends for their own sake, not simply as people that can help her achieve her goal to become as strong as she possibly can.


So, anyway, my comment is more about Einhart specifically than any general philosophy on "What's the best approach for a competitor to take to a tournament?" I understand and appreciate your perspective on that general philosophy, but it's a tangental issue to my hopes for Einhart specifically. I hope I managed to convey what I'm aiming at here.

[DKN117]

So instead of using Nanohaverse-style illusions (actually projecting magic 'holograms'), Fabia uses Narutoverse-style illusions (use chakra/magic/wibbly-wobbly stuff to 'hack' the target's brain to make them see/hear/feel what you want them to)?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I get what you're saying. Maybe I should elaborate some on my own points.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a competitor who is firmly focused on her/his own personal dreams and aspirations, and doesn't concern herself/himself much with the dreams and aspirations of other competitors. In certain contexts and/or with certain characters, I'm fine with this.

In the specific case of Einhart, though, I think its good that we see her think some about the dreams and feelings of her competitors, due to her pre-tournament characterization.

Even prior to the current tournament, Einhart has consistently maintained a laser-like focus on getting stronger, and on being the strongest that she can be. She desires that strength not for some particular practical purpose, but to satisfy a deep personal longing based on the ancient memories that she holds. This is fine for a starting point, but I think its best for Einhart's sense of herself and of her place in the world to become wider than this alone.

I sometimes get a sense that maybe Einhart is too caught up in the past, in the ancient memories that she holds. It's understandable that Einhart is this way, but I hope she can move beyond it, and embrace the world as it is, not as it was in her memories.

Einhart showing empathy for Corona strikes me as a step in the right direction, in this regard, for Einhart specifically. Einhart is valuing her friends and caring about her friends for their own sake, not simply as people that can help her achieve her goal to become as strong as she possibly can.


So, anyway, my comment is more about Einhart specifically than any general philosophy on "What's the best approach for a competitor to take to a tournament?" I understand and appreciate your perspective on that general philosophy, but it's a tangental issue to my hopes for Einhart specifically. I hope I managed to convey what I'm aiming at here.

I believe I see. And in that case I believe I agree with you. That touches on something that has long worried me about Einhart, actually.

To Einhart, Klaus' memories feel just like her own. The only way she can distinguish his memories from hers are by the actual content, but they feel the same: they have the same level of emotional impact and same level of influence on her personality as if she had actually been the one who experienced those events. There have been numerous times in the manga where she has either been thinking or speaking about the past, but has been referring to the events then in first-person: "I did this" "I couldn't do that" "how could I have forgotten something like that" etc. That isn't healthy, because it isn't her. She needs to be Einhart Stratos, not Klaus Ingvalt, and she needs to do what she does because it's what Einhart Stratos wants to do, not because it's what Klaus Ingvalt wanted to do.

I worry for her, because she has the entire life of someone who had a very strong personality, forged in a traumatic and momentous period of history, running through her head, trying to push her to be him. But he is dead; the world he lived in long gone; and Einhart needs to be able to live her own life, not his.

Originally Posted by DKN117

So instead of using Nanohaverse-style illusions (actually projecting magic 'holograms'), Fabia uses Narutoverse-style illusions (use chakra/magic/wibbly-wobbly stuff to 'hack' the target's brain to make them see/hear/feel what you want them to)?

We don't know. The spell she used has a completely different effect in the manga. We have no idea how the anime is going to try to portray her powers now, given that.

[chaos_animagic]

LOL @ witch girl.

Also, her familiars seems fun. LOL @ the chibi-skeleton doll thing throwing confetti around.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I worry for her, because she has the entire life of someone who had a very strong personality, forged in a traumatic and momentous period of history, running through her head, trying to push her to be him. But he is dead; the world he lived in long gone; and Einhart needs to be able to live her own life, not his.

I think this paragraph sums up Einhart's character very succinctly. I imagine that from her perspective, her life has been as if she was Claus Ingvalt for the first few decades, fell asleep, and woke up six centuries later in the body of a young girl, and being told she is not Claus Ingvalt, but rather the inheritor of his memories, in a radically different multi-verse. From the other perspective, her name is Einhart Stratos, a descendant of Claus Ingvalt who happens to have the memory of a dead man stored in her head. And there is no way of being certain, which perspective is truer, from her internal point of view, although I suspect magical theory suggest the latter explanation should be truer.

So, on one level, Einhart perfectly accepts on an intellectual, conscious level, that she is distinct from Claus Ingvalt, and for her, the adolescent search for self-identity is crucial because her memories make it all the more imperative that she becomes her own person. But sub-consciously, she might not necessarily internalize this.

It makes me wonder how previous generations of Ingvalts dealt with the problem. But then again, we go back to the fact that we know oddly nothing of Einhart's family background, except that Einhart has been living alone... for quite some time. I suspect we simply haven't gotten there yet, and the tournament is basically consuming the plot. There is of course, always the possibility we would get into Einhart's family in future arcs.

It makes me wonder whether this is actually deliberate - of course, Vivio would be fully aware of HER family, but she will not probe into the families of her own friends, unless they invite her in first.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I think this paragraph sums up Einhart's character very succinctly. I imagine that from her perspective, her life has been as if she was Claus Ingvalt for the first few decades, fell asleep, and woke up six centuries later in the body of a young girl, and being told she is not Claus Ingvalt, but rather the inheritor of his memories, in a radically different multi-verse. From the other perspective, her name is Einhart Stratos, a descendant of Claus Ingvalt who happens to have the memory of a dead man stored in her head. And there is no way of being certain, which perspective is truer, from her internal point of view, although I suspect magical theory suggest the latter explanation should be truer.

So, on one level, Einhart perfectly accepts on an intellectual, conscious level, that she is distinct from Claus Ingvalt, and for her, the adolescent search for self-identity is crucial because her memories make it all the more imperative that she becomes her own person. But sub-consciously, she might not necessarily internalize this.

Exactly. Her memories tell her she is two different people. And really, what is probably the stronger and more complete set of memories are telling her that she's a king from 600 years ago. It's actually rather remarkable that she's been able to maintain her sense of self as Einhart Stratos as much as she has, given that.

It makes me wonder how previous generations of Ingvalts dealt with the problem. But then again, we go back to the fact that we know oddly nothing of Einhart's family background, except that Einhart has been living alone... for quite some time. I suspect we simply haven't gotten there yet, and the tournament is basically consuming the plot. There is of course, always the possibility we would get into Einhart's family in future arcs.

The inherited traits from Klaus didn't appear in every generation, we know that much, but from what Einhart's told us they have appeared before. We don't have any information about how the previous inheritors handled it.

[Rising Dragon]

Or even if they could handle it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Exactly. Her memories tell her she is two different people. And really, what is probably the stronger and more complete set of memories are telling her that she's a king from 600 years ago. It's actually rather remarkable that she's been able to maintain her sense of self as Einhart Stratos as much as she has, given that.

I don't know if her memories of facts are that complete. I had the impression they were patchy. Some events and details she recalls very well, but that's all. But what weighs on her are Klaus' feelings. His guilt and helplessness when he failed to save Olivier, that never left him for his whole life.

So her sense of identity is safe. She knows she's not Klaus, that those things didn't happen to her. But she still feels his regrets as if they were her own.

[Liddo-kun]

watched the final episode today. Einhart sad for dreamcrushing Corona and several other people, but Nove tells her it's ok. Glad Corona was able to move on from the loss, she did her best anyway.. so no regrets.

damn... cliffhanger!??

just have to continue in the manga