Nanoha FanFiction Discussion

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

Sounds more like the trope "Continuity Lock-Out"; it's hard to pick up, say, "Long Distance Goodbye" because it's what amounts to the latest episode of an ongoing series. It's no different, say, than if someone joined the FFT when you were posting Future Tense and trying to start at Chapter 25. It just doesn't work; you'd have to go back and read the story from the beginning. And the fact that there's an archived collection of Shadowverse stories doesn't actually help because fanfiction.net doesn't allow it to be collected in order. What the series really needs more than anything is a &^@%&!** sequential index to the entire 'Verse, in chronological story order, with links, so someone wanting to jump aboard would be able to do so.

With Future Tense, there is an obvious starting point: Chapter 1. And an obvious progression: Chapter 2, leads to chapter 3. The fragmentation of the shadowverse, is beginning to hurt it. Although I will also say that Future Tense isn't perfect, either; I didn't develop some things as well as I could have. It was an ambitious project and I probably bit off more than I could chew, heh, but at least I learned a lot.

I did consider a shadowfire-like "Past Tense" series to fill in gaps, but then I'd run into the same problems I'm talking about here, so that possible project is on hold.

I have a bad habit myself, when it comes to pairings, of wanting to hear about their "together as a couple" years because no canon source ever bothers to mention that; either the series ends when they get together, they're shuffled into the supporting cast, or meaningless drama is introduced to stress the relationship and break them up because writers have no idea how to handle a stable couple on-screen.

I'd agree. I like to see the full series: from first greeting > getting to know each other > friendship > feelings forming > falling in love >admitting that love > getting together > making a relationship > marriage > family.

I'm kinda doing that with my crisisverse. Some relationships have formed, and will continue to develop. And some relationships will end as those involved begin to feel differently. But crisis isn't solely focused on relationships, as they are a side addition; I like to tell a more rounded story if I can.

The irony here is that in canon Vivio and Lutecia are study pals who bond over ancient Belkan books. And when you get right down to in, in MGLN, it's not like any pairing gets some titanic surge of canon support that explains why it exists. Attraction--in and of itself--merely is, the significant point is whether that attraction develops into something more or we merely shrug and move on.

Heh, I go into science and evolutionary biology to explain what attracts one person to another, but I'd get tomatoes thrown at me. :P And this isn't the thread for it. Suffice it to say that, even in infatuation, there are reasons for attraction. The popular football jock in school has ladies coming onto him for very specific reasons.

Except that...the 'Verse is constantly having stories added to it (indeed, that's part of the problem you seem to be having in the first paragraph). So is it, you're missing out on RB's "main sequence" stories specifically?

I know that. The problem is partly with those main sequence stories. Shadowverse may show part of what I would be looking for, but they are things that should have been in the main ones. And then we have your stories, too. And with new stories added all the time, that either take place in another shadowverse AU, or in different points in the chronology, it becomes hard to put everything together.

I mean, look at DC above, a strong fan of RB's work, and even she's confused on some parts!

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The only real complaint I can make about this Shadowsverse business is that with all the talk about it right now, it's really difficult to post about something else. I mean... did anyone notice the first time I posted my notification about putting chapter 2 of The Collared on FF.net?

This is one of the complaints that I tendered before. If this shadowverse discussion only happened once or twice, it wouldn't be an issue. But it tends to happen fairly regularly, once a week if not once every couple of weeks, expanding to several pages and drowning out space for other fics. And it covers the same ground.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Moczo

... ... ... I'm sure this has been pointed out to you before, but you do realize that convincing members of the Nanoha fandom that two women are homosexual is about as hard as writing a story with two women in it? Heterosexual relationships are most decidedly not the majority in fanfics for this series and they never, ever will be.

I'm aware of that, but we're talking about a realistic approach from my viewpoint. I've mentioned before how I still work under heteronormative standards. I can easily see a guy and a girl go from friends to more. Why? Because they're biologically programmed to be attracted to each other. Who better a mate than some one you already get along with?

With two women I don't see it. Why go beyond friends? What's the incentive that would give it that shove? If there was some sort of deep, emotional connection I could perhaps see it. When I did ViCia Lutecia liked Vivio because being around her helped her open up, and Vivio liked Lutecia because she felt a connection due to the both of them being manipulated by Jail. Even then they could still have that and remain friends.

Sometimes I feel like they're merely mistaking their feelings. They enjoy each other's company and like each other a lot so they think it must be romantic love when it's really just friendly love.

I guess I can't just swallow "they're gay and they love each other just because." I need more convincing than that.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I'm aware of that, but we're talking about a realistic approach from my viewpoint. I've mentioned before how I still work under heteronormative standards. I can easily see a guy and a girl go from friends to more. Why? Because they're biologically programmed to be attracted to each other. Who better a mate than some one you already get along with?

With two women I don't see it. Why go beyond friends? What's the incentive that would give it that shove? If there was some sort of deep, emotional connection I could perhaps see it. When I did ViCia Lutecia liked Vivio because being around her helped her open up, and Vivio liked Lutecia because she felt a connection due to the both of them being manipulated by Jail. Even then they could still have that and remain friends.

Sometimes I feel like they're merely mistaking their feelings. They enjoy each other's company and like each other a lot so they think it must be romantic love when it's really just friendly love.

I guess I can't just swallow "they're gay and they love each other just because." I need more convincing than that.

"Biological programming" has nothing to do with going from friends to lovers. If a woman can fall in love with a man, why not with a woman? Your argument can easily be turned around, since what is the incentive for a man and a woman to fall in love, having children aside? You're thinking of the reproductive aspects and not the emotional spectrum.

Also, research indicates that homosexuality and bisexuality are caused by gene mutations, therefore making the attraction to a gender or the other something that comes natural to those people, from their own biology.

So for a man and a woman something like friendship can develop into an emotionally fulfilling relationship, but a woman and another woman can't have that because it's not "a deep, emotional connection" that is "biologically programmed"? You're biased and rather wrong.

Although you say that, if it were a story about heterosexual couples you'd have no protests. That's some nice double standard and prejudice right there. You have something against homosexual relationships, don't you?

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

"Biological programming" has nothing to do with going from friends to lovers. If a woman can fall in love with a man, why not with a woman? Your argument can easily be turned around, since what is the incentive for a man and a woman to fall in love, having children aside? You're thinking of the reproductive aspects and not the emotional spectrum.

Essentially the whole point is to have kids and continue the species. I'm firmly in the evolutionist camp on this one. I believe in romance and true love and all that too, but when God or whoever designed us, being drawn to each other was included for the purpose of forming families and continuing the human race.

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Also, research indicates that homosexuality and bisexuality are caused by gene mutations, therefore making the attraction to a gender or the other something that comes natural to those people, from their own biology.

I know that. Again, being an evolutionist here. Since it does occur naturally that means there's nothing wrong with it. Though I admit I do fail to see the evolutionary advantage to it since no furthering of the species results from it, but there must be a reason.

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

So for a man and a woman something like friendship can develop into an emotionally fulfilling relationship, but a woman and another woman can't have that because it's not "a deep, emotional connection" that is "biologically programmed"? You're biased and rather wrong.

Friendship can be an emotionally fulfilling relationship too. Pretty much everything you can get out of a romance you can get out of a close friendship so in any context I don't see a particular need for it to go beyond that. With men and women you have nature pushing them along saying "Have kids, continue the species!" If two women are lesbians they'll have that biological urging too (only they can't have kids together) so if such was the case I can understand that.

And you must have mis-read me because nowhere did I say women can't have that. All I was saying was that I'd understand them going beyond friends if they had such a connection. For instance if they went through some sort of traumatic experience together that deepened their connection to something beyond friendship.

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Although you say that, if it were a story about heterosexual couples you'd have no protests. That's some nice double standard and prejudice right there. You have something against homosexual relationships, don't you?

Again, you mis-read me. I said I don't get it. Didn't say it was wrong by any means, just that I don't understand it. I understand heterosexual couples. Despite greater acceptance heterosexual is still the norm and I was raised in such an environment. It's what I know.

It's the author's job to develop things in such a way that I can get it. That I can look at the story and go "I can see and believe how that unfolded." If it's just "Okay, they're a couple!" then my immediate response is "Why?"

I have nothing against homosexual relationships. People can love whoever or whatever they want. I'm perfectly straight so I don't understand how it works because I've never experienced it. Not everyone hates what they don't understand.

[deathcurse]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

I've got a couple ideas for delving into that period. I do willingly admit, it's something that is lacking in Shadowverse, and it's something that should be developed more. I've just been more concerned with the main arc and the moving parts to really move back into the "past" where Vivio and Lutecia were just friends.

I know that many people here would be happy to see you fill out their backstory and all, but I just want to say that for my personal preference in fanfiction, I really don't mind how your stories are as is . And it's truly not because you're my friend--if I'm interested in a pairing, even if my initial interest was because "it sounds cool/funny" (as Hayate x Vivio shows ), I'll continue reading it even if it doesn't "make sense" since there's something about it that had grabbed my attention in the first place.

And in the case of ViCia, it was really the humour/unconventionalness/emotion and the Shadowverse aspects that got me, and you're doing a great job on those already . Just my preference, for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

This I have to agree. I frequently wonder whether I've read all the related fics, and sometimes whether the one I just read was actually part of the verse. And I have troubles regarding the chronology, too. All in all it limits me in enjoying only small parts of the story and prevents me from seeing the bigger picture.

Posting the entire list here IMHO won't help much, since sooner or later it would be drowned by other, newer posts.

I agree that an archive/list should be made. I know RB and Dezo created one, so maybe that should be posted somewhere (perhaps in the C2 at Fanfiction.net?).

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Don't make promises you can't keep

LOL, I just might do it! You know, if these characters ever seriously piss me off...maybe it can be a form of writer's block therapy?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"It just happens" is nice from a purely romantic sense, but it's not realistic. If you're writing a fairy tale, then sure, go for it. But without the build up, it lacks realism, and thus believable substance.

I understand the distinction you're making here, I really do. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be things people do in common, or moments that clearly have changed their relationship. What I don't like is how in fiction, authors/readers seem to often feel reading about any relationship necessitates a long prologue of build-up of how they met, etc. A story really can just start with two people already in a relationship/friendship without showing us the whole build-up.

Your Twilight example doesn't quite apply in RB's case, since in Twilight Bella and Edward just met each other and had this whole epic love thing happen. That's what people are skeptical about. The ViCia stories RB wrote have had them as friends for quite a few years before the romance started, so we know that those two already have things in common that support their friendship .

To be fair, that doesn't deal with the issue people mention about how they don't find the friendship relationship believable due to lack of stories about it, but to me that's still a solid foundation for a romance to start off of.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The other problem is that I can see how you plan to deal with this: write another fic, or add it as another story or two in your Shadowfire group... where it will promptly get buried by other fics. It will simply add to the problem Tiresias pointed out above: where does one start? No matter where one starts, there will be pieces of the story missing, so one will need to scavenge around, and hope they aren't reading something out of order. And no matter what story is read, there will be parts that won't be understood, because those parts are somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I don't have much of a good idea of how to fix this, short of completely rewriting, merging parts of shadowfire into the rewritten fics and starting from the ground up.

It's a fair criticism you make here about collaborative stories, but as I mentioned in a previous post, I don't necessarily find that quality a bad thing. It's a new kind of storytelling, and I found that taking this style with an open mind leads to something kind of interesting as a reader ; I can see the growth of a character/idea/relationship as it happens, and in a meta-kind of way that's really cool.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

I have a bad habit myself, when it comes to pairings, of wanting to hear about their "together as a couple" years because no canon source ever bothers to mention that; either the series ends when they get together, they're shuffled into the supporting cast, or meaningless drama is introduced to stress the relationship and break them up because writers have no idea how to handle a stable couple on-screen.

*Nod* It's why I like fanfiction--because the readers already know the characters and their relationships with each other, a fanfic can simply continue the canon relationships/plot without having to lay down all the groundwork again. True, this prevents the "self-contained story" Kaijo mentioned, but it doesn't detract from fanfiction as it might in an original novel. And it does provide far more "after the confession" storylines .

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The only real complaint I can make about this Shadowsverse business is that with all the talk about it right now, it's really difficult to post about something else. I mean... did anyone notice the first time I posted my notification about putting chapter 2 of The Collared on FF.net?

I'm sorry that your stuff got swamped with the Hayate x Vivio stories and the Shadowverse talk . It happens with any discussion (...such as these current ones too, I realize ).

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Just adding to Kaijo, I think having it a homosexual relationship requires even more development. Most people are straight so you also have the convince the reader that the characters are in fact homosexual. Otherwise what could possible push them over the 'just friends' line? We all have close friends, I'm sure. Could you ever see yourself fall in love with them? What would it take for you to do so?

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Spoiler for spoilered for length:

I'm aware of that, but we're talking about a realistic approach from my viewpoint. I've mentioned before how I still work under heteronormative standards. I can easily see a guy and a girl go from friends to more. Why? Because they're biologically programmed to be attracted to each other. Who better a mate than some one you already get along with?

With two women I don't see it. Why go beyond friends? What's the incentive that would give it that shove? If there was some sort of deep, emotional connection I could perhaps see it. When I did ViCia Lutecia liked Vivio because being around her helped her open up, and Vivio liked Lutecia because she felt a connection due to the both of them being manipulated by Jail. Even then they could still have that and remain friends.

Sometimes I feel like they're merely mistaking their feelings. They enjoy each other's company and like each other a lot so they think it must be romantic love when it's really just friendly love.

I guess I can't just swallow "they're gay and they love each other just because." I need more convincing than that.

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Spoiler for spoilered for length:

"Biological programming" has nothing to do with going from friends to lovers. If a woman can fall in love with a man, why not with a woman? Your argument can easily be turned around, since what is the incentive for a man and a woman to fall in love, having children aside? You're thinking of the reproductive aspects and not the emotional spectrum.

Also, research indicates that homosexuality and bisexuality are caused by gene mutations, therefore making the attraction to a gender or the other something that comes natural to those people, from their own biology.

So for a man and a woman something like friendship can develop into an emotionally fulfilling relationship, but a woman and another woman can't have that because it's not "a deep, emotional connection" that is "biologically programmed"? You're biased and rather wrong.

Although you say that, if it were a story about heterosexual couples you'd have no protests. That's some nice double standard and prejudice right there. You have something against homosexual relationships, don't you?

Okay, I'm going to address this stuff as much as I can without going into biology and social norms and such . It's not what this thread is about.

I personally consider that if a Nanoha fanfic is set on Earth, then yes, issues of homosexuality and such should be brought up and at least addressed a little, because those are our social norms. But unless canon seriously has material stating that Mid-Childa/the TSAB is a heteronormative society, I don't see why fanfic authors have to address this issue in fics set on Mid-Childa. Who's to say that their society isn't much more open to different kinds of relationships? While the only canon couples (Chrono x Amy, Lindy x Clyde, etc) happen to be heterosexual, they may not be examples of the entire society.

While 00-Raiser is right that if we look at statistics, then yes, 80%-90% of a population is heterosexual; however, for someone who is gay or bi, there's no "justification" needed. A lesbian sees another woman, and for whatever things that are attractive to her, she finds that woman hot. Or she sees a woman, and doesn't find her attractive and just wants to be friends. There's no explanation or justification needed. Just like how some straight girls can be friends with one guy, but attracted to another guy. I don't think that a fanfic author needs to develop a homosexual relationship more than a heterosexual one just to get the readers to become convinced of it.*

*Unless, of course, the character is confirmed to be straight before. For instance, if Chrono were to fall in love with Yuuno, I'd expect at least a nod at why Chrono is bi or gay all of a sudden in-story.

A heterosexual reader may find that they need a homosexual relationship to be justified more for them because they personally have trouble relating to it--that's completely fair. (Just like how, in my case, I personally need a ton of justification from a story about incestuous relationships. That's a personal preference.) But unless the author is specifically writing to address that limited heterosexual audience who needs such justification, I don't believe that a story needs to further develop a homosexual relationship in order to be convincing or realistic.

Originally Posted by Eagle8819

Okay. It's finally ready for posting (or should I say I got lazy of re-reading?). Please excuse this momentary interruption while I advertise a fic.

Circuit Clout
In a time where Fate did not become an enforcer but a convict-turned-civilian collaborator. A world where TSAB is forgiving, but not forgiving enough to let ex-convicts into its organization. This is how her path was re-shaped.

And some copy pasted post-credits excerpt, since it's relevant to a few people in this forum:
Additional thanks to Moczo (and AnimeSuki) for thoughts on how to get Fate and Yuuno talking, as well, and Shigan's fic, When I think about Flying. Notably, for a certain scene where -snipped for spoilers-. While my objective was to give a different message, there are some details that describes what was portrayed in her fic, to support what I was trying to portray; and there's just no way I could've described it differently.

-End interruption-

Please resume as normal.

I reviewed in Fanfiction.net ^^, but just to give it a nod here, I really liked it. The shifts in characterization were really neat to see as a result of what had changed due to the fic's premise .

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

Okay, I'm going to address this stuff as much as I can without going into biology and social norms and such . It's not what this thread is about.

I personally consider that if a Nanoha fanfic is set on Earth, then yes, issues of homosexuality and such should be brought up and at least addressed a little, because those are our social norms. But unless canon seriously has material stating that Mid-Childa/the TSAB is a heteronormative society, I don't see why fanfic authors have to address this issue in fics set on Mid-Childa. Who's to say that their society isn't much more open to different kinds of relationships? While the only canon couples (Chrono x Amy, Lindy x Clyde, etc) happen to be heterosexual, they may not be examples of the entire society.

While 00-Raiser is right that if we look at statistics, then yes, 80%-90% of a population is heterosexual; however, for someone who is gay or bi, there's no "justification" needed. A lesbian sees another woman, and for whatever things that are attractive to her, she finds that woman hot. Or she sees a woman, and doesn't find her attractive and just wants to be friends. There's no explanation or justification needed. Just like how some straight girls can be friends with one guy, but attracted to another guy. I don't think that a fanfic author needs to develop a homosexual relationship more than a heterosexual one just to get the readers to become convinced of it.*

*Unless, of course, the character is confirmed to be straight before. For instance, if Chrono were to fall in love with Yuuno, I'd expect at least a nod at why Chrono is bi or gay.

A heterosexual reader may find that they need a homosexual relationship to be justified more for them because they personally have trouble relating to it--that's completely fair. (Just like how, in my case, I personally need a ton of justification from a story about incestuous relationships. That's a personal preference.) But unless the author is specifically writing to address that limited heterosexual audience who needs such justification, I don't believe that a story needs to further develop a homosexual relationship in order to be convincing or realistic.

Quoted for Great Truth and Justice.

I was trying to make some kind of sense while being angry at what seemed to be a rather belittling post. I'd make a bigger argument about this, but it's not the Dating/Sexuality thread and would derail this one, so I'll just say that the entire thing sounded rather offensive and I reacted emotionally instead of logically. I should fix that habit.

[Justin_Brett]

I find it hilarious that you two are talking about biological standards in a series where you can clone people perfectly, bring them back from the dead, and develop a virus that renders whoever has it immune to magic.

Just my two cents.

(Also, Raiser, you might be underestimating the Suspension of Disbelief the average Fanfiction.net reviewer has a tad when it comes to this kind of thing.)

[00-Raiser]

I've often had people come at me like I was homophobic but I'm not. Hell, I have no problem going on about how sexy I think Vice and Hugh Jackman are.

I get that a homosexual audience will instantly accept homosexual content, but I don't know, is it really just as simple as waking up one morning and going "Oh hey, I'm gay!"? I would think there'd be some build up and doubts involved before accepting it. A great opportunity of angst that I'm surprised RB hasn't taken advantage of already.

Maybe one day Vivio and Lutecia find they're hugging each other a bit too long, or when their faces come close they have to resist getting closer. Since they started off young the timeline should include their sexual awakening. I just need some build up to find it plausable, I guess. Even then, just using "because I said so" isn't good writing, especially with Vivio and Lutecia because when the Shadowverse started there was no canon chemstry to work with (NanoFate has plenty of that. I have no problem accepting it when they're paired together).

Now if we were talking a Vivid ViCia fic, I'd have a lot easier time settling into that. Sadly no one really writes with Vivid Lutecia because they think the Shadowverse one is better *shrug*

[deathcurse]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

I find it hilarious that you two are talking about biological standards in a series where you can clone people perfectly, bring them back from the dead, and develop a virus that renders whoever has it immune to magic.

Just my two cents.

(Also, Raiser, you might be underestimating the Suspension of Disbelief the average Fanfiction.net reviewer has a tad when it comes to this kind of thing.)

You've got a good point XD--biology in Mid-Childa/TSAB-verse may not work the same, since they are functionally aliens, I believe? (There may be canon sources confirming they are the same kind of human as Earthlings, I dunno ).

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I've often had people come at me like I was homophobic but I'm not. Hell, I have no problem going on about how sexy I think Vice and Hugh Jackman are.

I get that a homosexual audience will instantly accept homosexual content, but I don't know, is it really just as simple as waking up one morning and going "Oh hey, I'm gay!"? I would think there'd be some build up and doubts involved before accepting it. A great opportunity of angst that I'm surprised RB hasn't taken advantage of already.

Maybe one day Vivio and Lutecia find they're hugging each other a bit too long, or when their faces come close they have to resist getting closer. Since they started off young the timeline should include their sexual awakening. I just need some build up to find it plausable, I guess. Even then, just using "because I said so" isn't good writing, especially with Vivio and Lutecia because when the Shadowverse started there was no canon chemstry to work with (NanoFate has plenty of that. I have no problem accepting it when they're paired together).

Not a personal attack, Raiser, but simply accepting two guys or two girls liking one another doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't coming off as homophobic . While I don't doubt that you don't mean to be, some of your comments are kind of discriminatory.

It's not necessarily just a homosexual audience who instantly accepts a homosexual pairing . I assume that there are heterosexual people who probably accept it fine, just as there are probably homosexual people who, well, don't . It's really all just what people prefer to read.

Just like with everything else, that initial "I'm gay" realization varies . Some people have the dramatic Coming Out Process full of melodrama and angst. Others truly never considered themselves anything but homosexual (and didn't even realize that other people aren't that way until it's pointed out to them), and others come to the realization with "I think I'm gay....okay." I've found that fanfiction and stories often go with the dramatic Coming Out Process since it provides more conflicts to write about, but it's definitely not the only process. So I don't raise my eyebrows when a story chooses to by-pass the Coming Out Process (capitalized for sarcastic effect ) in favour of a different approach. But I understand if other people (you're probably not the only one) don't get it or don't prefer that style. It's all personal preferences, after all.

The important point is that a gay person doesn't think of themselves as "abnormal" compared to "the majority of people". They think of themselves as normal people, period. So a fanfic where a gay character constantly compares himself/herself to what "normal, heterosexual people do" actually comes off as fake with that in mind.

"Because I said so" for me is a good justification for writing a pairing in the first place (it was my argument against people saying "Why are X and Y paired together?"). It's definitely not good writing, or good description about a relationship, but that's a different topic .

[MaxwellDemon]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

"Because I said so" for me is a good justification for writing a pairing in the first place (it was my argument against people saying "Why are X and Y paired together?"). It's definitely not good writing, or good description about a relationship, but that's a different topic .

I just thought I would like to add to this point by saying that I accept the "Because I said so" approach because I personally have never in my life experience a moment where I understood WHY I like a certain person.

Argue with biological and evolutionary reasoning as much as you want, but some things happens just because. Personally, I am a Darwinist in general aspects, but I don't believe 'love' could be explained through that perspective because it is such a complex feeling composing of not only physical attraction, but also cultural and social attractions. Just to avoid misunderstanding, I am separating the 'wanting to bed' feeling from the 'I want to marry you and wash your socks' feeling... which is two completely different type of love.

In terms of what makes a 'realistic' couple in fan fiction, I personally judge the most by looking at how the author portray the respective characters' chemistry in story. So, how a couple goes through their problems or day to day life is eventually what brings that pairing into life for me.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

LOL, I just might do it! You know, if these characters ever seriously piss me off...maybe it can be a form of writer's block therapy?

Okay now you're just teasing me *wipes drool*

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

bring them back from the dead

Wait, when did that happened? I thought Alicia was never resurrected?

Originally Posted by deathcurse

You've got a good point XD--biology in Mid-Childa/TSAB-verse may not work the same, since they are functionally aliens, I believe? (There may be canon sources confirming they are the same kind of human as Earthlings, I dunno ).

Well IIRC Genya was a descendant of an Earther/Earthling/Earthman/??? and a Midchildan. Don't remember how solid that info was, though.

[DezoPenguin]

Perhaps ironically, I posted the second chapter of "Actually One of the Better Excuses" to fanfiction.net.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

It's not necessarily just a homosexual audience who instantly accepts a homosexual pairing . I assume that there are heterosexual people who probably accept it fine, just as there are probably homosexual people who, well, don't . It's really all just what people prefer to read.

I didn't mean an audience of homosexuals, I meant an audience for homosexual content which certainly both gays and straights can be a part of.

Originally Posted by deathcurse

Just like with everything else, that initial "I'm gay" realization varies .

I doubt Vivio would come to the realization at 6 years old, though...

Originally Posted by deathcurse

The important point is that a gay person doesn't think of themselves as "abnormal" compared to "the majority of people". They think of themselves as normal people, period. So a fanfic where a gay character constantly compares himself/herself to what "normal, heterosexual people do" actually comes off as fake with that in mind.

*shrug* I only mentioned it because I know how much RB loves her angst. Such build up would fix how it feels like she's just randomly thrown two characters together and expects us to believe it.

[sniperk]

Wow. Coming late into the discussion but whatever.

In regards to pairings and such, as a (wannabe-)writer, I believe that inner turmoil and questioning oneself about sexuality and the 'why' am I attracted to a certain person, be it het or homo, is something that should be touched and gone in depth to explain the aspects and everything related to it, so we can get a sense of fullfillment from the story we're writing. Some things just come off as "The Author Said So" doesn't cut it very well for the author him/herself because it lack that sense of fullfillment. That's one of the reasons I never wrote the HayatexTeana fic I always wanted, despite having fleshed out most of it in my mind. I wanted it to be believable, not just 'The Author Said So'.

But as a reader, I can read about any pairing. For more unrealistic that it can sound (I read once a fic about Yahiko and Sanosuke getting together and liked it) any pairing can be interesting, provided in a good story. For this point, because the "Author Said So" is valid for me.

The point is, most fanfiction deal with the aftermath of the relantionship exactly because canon never really does. Few anime stories delve into that territory well (CLANNAD AS and Bokura ga Ita came to mind), so the fanfiction community as a general do.

As for the shadowverse issue. I think the 'verse itself started out as something different than a normal fanfic. It maybe wasn't really what RB intended at first, but it came to be that way because of the fragmented way it was wrote. In that, seeing that she jumped mostly to the 'good part' of the 'they are together now', several people saw in that 'verse elements that they tought that were interesting enough to use in their own fics, and to it ended up been what it is today. Since it wasn't intended to be that way in the beginning, fixing everything up until now it'll be hard, and it'll occur that several people will get the "Continuity Lock Out" feeling, but if RB (or someone else up to the task) could write an index or summary of the events it can be, at least partially, friendly to a new reader.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by deathcurse

I understand the distinction you're making here, I really do. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be things people do in common, or moments that clearly have changed their relationship. What I don't like is how in fiction, authors/readers seem to often feel reading about any relationship necessitates a long prologue of build-up of how they met, etc. A story really can just start with two people already in a relationship/friendship without showing us the whole build-up.

I understand this. Just pointing out some criticism that shows why someone wouldn't get as much of an... emotional attachment to the relationship, or feel it was real enough to them to care. It's the main reason I tend to get from people, when subjects like this have come up.

Your Twilight example doesn't quite apply in RB's case, since in Twilight Bella and Edward just met each other and had this whole epic love thing happen. That's what people are skeptical about. The ViCia stories RB wrote have had them as friends for quite a few years before the romance started, so we know that those two already have things in common that support their friendship .

Oh, I want to be clear that I'm not saying RB's pairing is Twilight at all. I only brought it up to show how how the "They just love each other!" reason looks to some people. Edward and Bella's relationship has other issues, but that reason is a fairly big one for people who have problems with the relationship.

Let me put forth the following scenario, which you've probably scene a hundred times in anime:

The guy and girl don't like each other, or at least are just friends or barely know each other. Then, the girl comes under attack by something, and the guy comes in and protects her, possibly saving her. We see in her eyes as she looks at him, that something has changed, and if she doesn't start to outright like him, we can at least see the seeds of that forming. She'll probably ask, "Why did you save me?"

What happened? Biology. We automatically can accept why she started to fall for him, but we don't exactly question or understand why. It's because of millions of years of biology; he just demonstrated his capacity for being a protector, which triggered impulses in her. We don't quite understand it on that level, though, we just go with it.

Moments like that, are what build a relationship. Going from "Just friends" to "now we wanna bone" is obviously plausible, but a good writer will showcase exactly how that happens. The feelings really do come from somewhere, even if personally we don't understand that or stop to think about it. A good writer will include that, because it is an important aspect of relationship building.

Again, this is all just constructive criticism. I completely understand there are people that don't care, and just like to see two girls being lovey or having sexual angst. There are people who really like Edward/Bella, too, despite how badly that relationship was formed and maintained from a writing standpoint (and no, ViCia isn't that bad).

*Nod* It's why I like fanfiction--because the readers already know the characters and their relationships with each other, a fanfic can simply continue the canon relationships/plot without having to lay down all the groundwork again. True, this prevents the "self-contained story" Kaijo mentioned, but it doesn't detract from fanfiction as it might in an original novel. And it does provide far more "after the confession" storylines ..

That is one advantage we have in fanfiction. I understand NanoFate, because the series does set up the possibility that they have feelings for each other. That means that a fanfiction can start from the prospect of them being friends, and then admitting their feelings. The series did all the setup work for us. But for two characters that never interacted, the burden of proof is higher. It's the same criticism one may do for, say Hayate/Yuuno. The two never interacted, but if you show a fic where they are a couple, and only use brief flashbacks to show their friendship beforehand, people might just scratch their heads.

Like the analogy I used above: it's skipping most of the meal, to get straight to dessert.

On a different note, regarding the fragmentation issue of the series, I did have an idea last night. Book series can have this issue, too, and one of my favorites is BattleTech, where there is a universe and many, many authors have written in that universe. Each book tends to list, in the front or back, the reading order for books, as well as showing which book series stand by themselves. This could be accomplished by listing fics in the proper order in the author notes (or at the beginning).

The other big issue is that, with a series like Battletech, there is literally an entire universe to write in, so someone can write a story on one planet, while another person can write a story on a different planet with a different group of people. That's a problem in the shadowverse, because writers are dealing with the same group of people and the same setting; it's inherently going to mean toes are stepped on, and you'll get semi-conflicting stories eventually.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I'm not too fond of Chrono myself, so I have no intention of writing fics starring him. He gets enough love in canon so I don't feel the need to give him more.

Fond of Yuuno but not Chrono? That's hard to pull off in my head.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Meh, was it up to me Fate and Chrono would've been a couple instead of "siblings" , Hayate looks good with Griffith *blatant doujin shout-out*, and Nanoha will always have Raging Heart

Nanoha/Job OTP.

Originally Posted by DezoPenguin

What the series really needs more than anything is a &^@%&!** sequential index to the entire 'Verse, in chronological story order, with links, so someone wanting to jump aboard would be able to do so.

I'd do it, but I'm not interested in the timeline at all. I'm interested in the lore. I'm not a big fan of Vivio/Lutecia, and yet I like the Shadowsverse because of the implications on characters outside of the 'main pairing'. I started writing in it because of Chrono, and I dragged Hayate into it.

That being said, I'm willing to make a Master Post and keep it edited if people want me to and send me the right info.

@00-Raiser/deathcurse/Kaijo: Treading dangerous ground. Can we keep the heteronormative discussion to a minimum, please?

[NTFTH]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

On a different note, regarding the fragmentation issue of the series, I did have an idea last night. Book series can have this issue, too, and one of my favorites is BattleTech, where there is a universe and many, many authors have written in that universe. Each book tends to list, in the front or back, the reading order for books, as well as showing which book series stand by themselves.

The same thing is included in almost all Star Wars books and works out very well, without it you'd have no chance of reading any of the EU.

How many BattleTech books are there total?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by NTFTH

The same thing is included in almost all Star Wars books and works out very well, without it you'd have no chance of reading any of the EU.

How many BattleTech books are there total?

I have 42 books on my shelf, but I also haven't been into battletech for many years. I'd easily say that number has probably doubled by now. It's a HUGE universe spanning hundreds, if not thousands of years, with plenty of space for everyone to write things. But they do also have a singular line of books that they hire one writer to write, that deals with out the "main" issues resolves (used to be the Inner Sphere vs. Clan war, and the political moves by the heads of state).

Oh, and spawn: I understand why people get iffy when we talk about this stuff. Biology isn't romantic. We don't like to think we are controlled by our impulses. But it's also important to remember that biology isn't 100%, either. We can bypass that, especially when we are away of it. And as a writer, we can use our understanding of biology to write more realistic romance scenarios, instead of cutting and pasting from other sources.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Nanoha/Job OTP.

Their love is so true and pure.

@Kaijo: You do make some very good critiques, I'll give you that. So that is definitely noted and appreciated, since it gives me a better idea of at least story-wise, where its lacking and how I can fix it. So, thank you for that, it helped me a lot and gave me some ideas for what to do in the future to at least give the pairing a bit more of a foundation in terms of romance.

@The whole gay/straight relationship thing: This is admittedly, again, my own failing/fault as a writer because I personally didn't see it as a problem of Vivio and Lutecia being gay or bisexual, and I didn't want to touch the issue with a ten foot pole because I know how touchy it is with some people and some parts of the fandom. My main thought when writing them was more of the thought of two people who had been friends for years, and fell in love, and also happened to both be women. I didn't really think much about the "Oh God, I'm gay" side of things, or at least the "Oh God, I'm bisexual" reaction from Lutecia. The problem is, I don't really know how to address that since it wouldn't be a big, dramatic thing.

@RD: ..... Still sorry about that.

[Nanya01]

*Inserts 2 cents into conversation*

Okay, let me say this about Shadowverse right now. The discussion, I'm going to say, is getting annoying.

No, this isn't a snipe at anyone, so, don't think that.

It's just, has there been an update in the past 8 pages?

Yes, this is the FFT, and yes, it's okay to discuss fanfics.

But, really guys. How would those of you who discuss Shadowverse feel if I discussed Blood That Flows with Mega, Shiroi, vic-vic, Sniperk and Aaron for 8-20 pages straight with no updates?

If you wanna discuss it, it's fine. I have nothing against it. But, if there's no updates, then, well, you should probably take it to VM/PMs. I've got nothing against the Shadowverse and ViCia in general (other than I prefer ViVid's Lutecia, because she's funnier). I don't, but, really, there's no updates and people are talking about it, so... It's starting to get annoying.

As for the whole "because the author says so" with Vivio and Lutecia... Let me say that's fine for a short story or a one-shot. Lord knows I've done that with my Omakes that I've posted (Like with Signum forcing Yuuno onto a date with her or Yuuno waking up with Vita (nothing happened, you deviants!) after a night of drinking).

But, once a story goes beyond its simple concept, it needs more than just "author says so". For Shadowverse, the primary idea was of Vivio and Lutecia to be together. Okay, fine. And then RadiantBeam went and created the "Shadows" and how Lutecia was a part of that.

That's all fine. In fact, that's a good base. I mean, it's an AU and we know that the Bureau has its share of dirty dealings in the past (Gil, Jail and others)

The problem is, after awhile, once the story goes beyond its initial concept, it needs to be expanded.

For example, my story "Changes" was just supposed to be a one-shot where Alicia didn't die and was Fate's mother instead of Precia. It ended up being a basic retelling of Season 1, but still gave enough back-story for Fate and Alicia that it was interesting and made the events of the present more believable.

How about my story "Due"? I saw a short comic where Due had come back to life as a little kid and took that idea and turned it into a fic. I didn't do any flashbacks, but instead I had Due rattle off things that made people nervous and wondering what she went through while homeless. There was enough details to give you a real idea of how bad her life was, but vague enough that you could come up with your own conclusions.

And I'll go with my current story "Blood That Flows". The whole idea, the WHOLE concept was nothing more than "What if Lina Inverse was Nanoha's mother?" In spite of that simple concept, I've taken the story far beyond my original intention. And, as I expanded the story, I had to expand the characters and their backstories somewhat. (3 Flashbacks showing how Lina got to Nanoha's world, how she met Shiro and when she fell in love with him, with comments throughout the fic about various events that happened before Nanoha was born)

Anyway, the point I'm making here is, if you take a story too far beyond its simple concept, you need to expand the back story of your characters, so that it's believable to the people reading it.

I mean, hell, all the problems with Vivio and Lutecia could be solved with a short story (or a flashback) of Vivio and Lutecia's first date and such...

Anyway, another thing about all this discussion and no fic that bothers me is that all the comments that Shadowverse has gotten is as many as Rising Dragon, Kaijo, Yasanagi, myself and others (sorry, don't know the rest of you guys as well) have gotten with all of our updates put together.

At least when dc (who's one of the more consistent updaters around here) updates a fic and gets 2 pages of comments, it makes sense.

But this...

Look, this isn't a gripe at anyone in particular, it's just how there's no updates.

Anyway, you should go listen to the Country song "Lightning Does the Work". First few lines of that song sums up my thoughts perfectly.

"You know that nothing's getting done, if talking's all you hear."