Batman vs. Superman: Dawn of Justice

[GDB]

Originally Posted by james0246

Why would having an Hispanic/Latino Flash turn you off from seeing the character or the film that he is in (presuming they keep Flash male )? Or is it the idea of comparing the Justice League to the United Nations you have a problem with?

Both, really. My main problem with it is that they're changing iconic characters for no apparent reason other than "DIVERSITY, HO!".

I mean, it worked out so well when they changed Hal Jordon's personality, right?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by GDB

Both, really. My main problem with it is that they're changing iconic characters for no apparent reason other than "DIVERSITY, HO!".

I mean, it worked out so well when they changed Hal Jordon's personality, right?

To each their own. I agree that changing personalities is bad, but I also have no problem with a Latino/Hispanic Flash, or an Asian Martian Manhunter (okay, not an Asian Martian, but an Asian actor portraying a Martian ), or any number of other cosmetic changes. In fact, the best stories for many of these characters are gender/race-neutral (as they should be), in which case keeping the personality the same matters more than anything else.

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by GDB

DCAU Lex Luthor wasn't black... In fact, he has the same skin tone as Two-Face / Harvey Dent. Compare him to an actual black character, like John Stewart, and you'll be able to tell. Plus, the producers said in an interview he was white.

Always saw him as black. Huh.

Oh, wow. So they're not even trying to appeal to comic fans, are they?

I see it as like them doing an Elseworlds story. DC comic continuity is so skewed in comparison to Marvel that a lot of it pre-Infinite Crises is unusable in today's world. A lot of the ideas are so old they need to be updated a retooled. I think it's a smart way to translate the JL to modern day anyway, by putting a political spin on it (or broadening the political subtext it's always sort of had).

Making Barry Allen (or Jay Garrick or Wally West, whichever they use) hispanic IS a pretty big departure...but it's not like Barry being an American was ever really a big part of the character. He just needs to be a forensic scientist who gets superspeed from a chemical accident.

Originally Posted by GDB

Both, really. My main problem with it is that they're changing iconic characters for no apparent reason other than "DIVERSITY, HO!".

No, they're changing it to adapt the idea to the modern world. DC is super old. Older than Marvel. A lot of the foundational ideas for their characters and teams just aren't strong enough to carry a movie. They have to retool certain things. Marvel was lucky in that Jack Kirby and Stan Lee had the foresight (or hindsight if you want to look at it another way) to make their characters and concept grounded in relatability. DC didn't have that. A lot of the ideas are just your typical superhero generic origins and characters.

And anyway, what do you want Justice League to be, a copy of the Avengers? The way they're doing it puts a unique spin on a superhero "team" that clearly differentiates itself from Marvel's team, which is more of a typical strike force/response unit and team up.

I mean, it worked out so well when they changed Hal Jordon's personality, right?

Not even the same thing.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If they do a solid film that does the character justice, then it won't bomb. Seriously, DC needs to start giving characters other than Batman and Superman more exposure. That's a big problem they have in terms of marketing outside of their comics. There are a plethora of fascinating characters that sadly go by unnoticed and without recognition.

I agree that there are many interesting characters that don't get their due but it's just very difficult to transfer them to movie format and have it work. Even Marvel has characters that have compelling comic titles but for whatever reason don't transfer well to the big screen.

Originally Posted by GDB

Marvel is doing an Ant-Man movie, and Guardians of the Galaxy which stars a raccoon with a gun. Your argument is invalid.

It's not invalid. Marvel has already built up its brand with all the movies leading up to Avengers. They've refined their movies and are such a well-oiled machine that they can take a relatively obscure characters like Ant-Man and those in Guardians and people will flock to theatres because they know it's a Marvel production.

DC isn't touching that. I just don't see a Wonder Woman flick working.

[playmaker2k]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

And anyway, what do you want Justice League to be, a copy of the Avengers? The way they're doing it puts a unique spin on a superhero "team" that clearly differentiates itself from Marvel's team, which is more of a typical strike force/response unit and team up.

Yeah, that's exactly what they are.

The Avengers would hang out and have shawarmas after a long day of saving the world.

Tony Stark: "Come on guys, drinks are on me!"
Steve Rogers: "Sure, but I can't get drunk. The Serum won't allow it."
Tony Stark: "...I hate you..."

-----------------------------

JLA would part ways after a mission and only meet up for weekly briefings and watch duty.

Clark: "Come on Bruce, hang out for a minute."
Batman: "I can't.
Clark: "Why not?

*Stops walking and turns to the side and squints*

Batman: "My city need me."

*walks out the briefing room in epic fashion while the rest shake their heads*

[Ithekro]

Justice League Unlimited brought out more of the B-rank heroes and villains to compliment the A-ranks.

Batman: Brave and the Bold took a spin on a lot of DC's C-rank heroes and villians (even some D-rank). Gave some good stories, but almost none would be worth a feature film...even with Batman.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

DC isn't touching that. I just don't see a Wonder Woman flick working.

And the fact that Marvel is not really even attempting a female-driven action film is reason enough for DC to push ahead with a "Wonder Woman" movie. The past 5 years have had a slew of female-driven action films that have ranged from simply profitable to insanely-profitable. Hell, "Catching Fire" in under a month has already managed to surpass both the domestic and worldwide total of "Man of Steel". So, to limit the comic franchises to boys only (both in regards to characters and audience) is a crazy business model. If DC/WB/Legendary make a "Wonder Woman" film (a decent one, mind you, and yes some amount of romance will probably have to foisted into the film), there will be an audience and it will be huge.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by james0246

And the fact that Marvel is not really even attempting a female-driven action film is reason enough for DC to push ahead with a "Wonder Woman" movie. The past 5 years have had a slew of female-driven action films that have ranged from simply profitable to insanely-profitable. Hell, "Catching Fire" in under a month has already managed to surpass both the domestic and worldwide total of "Man of Steel". So, to limit the comic franchises to boys only (both in regards to characters and audience) is a crazy business model. If DC/WB/Legendary make a "Wonder Woman" film (a decent one, mind you, and yes some amount of romance will probably have to foisted into the film), there will be an audience and it will be huge.

I agree that if DC wants to establish its cinematic presence, it should make a WW movie; however, seeing this model cast as WW, the likelihood of that is slim. Unless she beefs up, learns some moves, and fixes that thick accent up, I can't see a WW movie with her in the lead role being anything other than a bomb. WW is a warrior, and from what I've seen of this actress/model, she primarily works in seductive roles. Can she break out of her "comfort" zone? I would hate for what Wonder Woman is to be destroyed in an attempt to make her "attract" the general audience (and by general, I mean pubescent boys more interested in the "hot" than the plot).

But I also had misgivings when Anne Hathaway was cast as Catwoman, so I'll try not to be too cynical and give it a chance, but my hopes aren't high. If this movie works out, I'll gladly eat my words, but if it fails, I'll just go back to sticking with DC's animation.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I agree that if DC wants to establish its cinematic presence, it should make a WW movie; however, seeing this model cast as WW, the likelihood of that is slim. Unless she beefs up, learns some moves, and fixes that thick accent up, I can't see a WW movie with her in the lead role being anything other than a bomb. WW is a warrior, and from what I've seen of this actress/model, she primarily works in seductive roles. Can she break out of her "comfort" zone? I would hate for what Wonder Woman is to be destroyed in an attempt to make her "attract" the general audience (and by general, I mean pubescent boys more interested in the "hot" than the plot).

But I also had misgivings when Anne Hathaway was cast as Catwoman, so I'll try not to be too cynical and give it a chance, but my hopes aren't high. If this movie works out, I'll gladly eat my words, but if it fails, I'll just go back to sticking with DC's animation.

Don't get me wrong, I also have some misgivings about Gadot as Wonder Woman. She is a model, and that is disconcerting, and she does have a smaller build than previous incarnations (though the DCAU has a similar build). From a different perspective, though, I like that she doesn't have to look physically imposing in order to be powerful, that is a strong message...albeit hampered by the unrealistic body she does posses. To put it in perspective, Antje Traue (Faora), who is approximately the same size as Gadot only shorter, was quite an impressive badass in "Man of Steel".

Strangely, Gadot's accent is not off-putting (nor particularly thick), in fact I hope they play up her foreignness - I've always disliked how easily Wonder Woman fits in to American society, even though she is just as much an outsider as Superman. And I have no problem with her from an action perspective since her work on the "Fast and Furious" franchise has often been very intensive and in interviews she talks quite a bit about how much she likes performing her own stunts.

In the end, it's how they limit the character that I am more worried about. Wonder Woman, similarly to Superman, is constantly limited. Her strength is stolen from her all the time, and not just from cliche weaknesses, but by the writers, producers, and even the audience. It's only in the last 15 or so years that she has re-established herself as the premier superheroine. I do worry what message DC/WB/Legendary is trying to send with picking Gadot as Wonder Woman, but I do have hope, and if they choose the right director and writer this could end up being quite good.

[GDB]

Lot of "ifs" there.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by james0246

I do worry what message DC/WB/Legendary is trying to send with picking Gadot as Wonder Woman, but I do have hope, and if they choose the right director and writer this could end up being quite good.

Isn't Legendary's contract with WB over? Last time I heard, they have nothing to do with Batman vs Superman. If I'm not mistaken, now they're working with Universal and help producing Jurassic World.

I also worry about the whole "picking Gadot as WW" thing. I hope it's a lot more than just a rushed decision.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Isn't Legendary's contract with WB over? Last time I heard, they have nothing to do with Batman vs Superman. If I'm not mistaken, now they're working with Universal and help producing Jurassic World.

That's right, I forgot that Legendary and WB had split. I wonder which other studio will work with Syncopy on "Man of Steel 2" then...?

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by james0246

Don't get me wrong, I also have some misgivings about Gadot as Wonder Woman. She is a model, and that is disconcerting, and she does have a smaller build than previous incarnations (though the DCAU has a similar build). From a different perspective, though, I like that she doesn't have to look physically imposing in order to be powerful, that is a strong message...albeit hampered by the unrealistic body she does posses. To put it in perspective, Antje Traue (Faora), who is approximately the same size as Gadot only shorter, was quite an impressive badass in "Man of Steel".

Strangely, Gadot's accent is not off-putting (nor particularly thick), in fact I hope they play up her foreignness - I've always disliked how easily Wonder Woman fits in to American society, even though she is just as much an outsider as Superman. And I have no problem with her from an action perspective since her work on the "Fast and Furious" franchise has often been very intensive and in interviews she talks quite a bit about how much she likes performing her own stunts.

In the end, it's how they limit the character that I am more worried about. Wonder Woman, similarly to Superman, is constantly limited. Her strength is stolen from her all the time, and not just from cliche weaknesses, but by the writers, producers, and even the audience. It's only in the last 15 or so years that she has re-established herself as the premier superheroine. I do worry what message DC/WB/Legendary is trying to send with picking Gadot as Wonder Woman, but I do have hope, and if they choose the right director and writer this could end up being quite good.

To be honest, I haven't seen any films from the Fast and Furious franchise, so I'll admit to being hasty in my judgment. It's your last point that holds my primary concern. From the few clips I have seen of Gadot, the scenes are all sensual and seem to be completely about her sexuality. This brings up the question of how the producers plan on portraying Wonder Woman now that this actress has been cast. Does Gadot have the acting depth to break out of the seductress role, or is she being cast because this is how cinematic Wonder Woman will be portrayed -- more seductress than warrior?

In the end, I won't mind much if she isn't willing to work out and develop the muscle needed or if she can't fix her accent (especially if they focus more on her foreignness, like you mentioned). I'll mind if Wonder Woman will become just another empty name, like what happened with Dragonball Evolution's "Goku." Not that I believe it'll come to that. Wonder Woman is strong and can hold her own. If the production team can portray that with Gadot, then that would be great. Whether they can or can't remains to be seen.


(And yes GDB, I do use "if" a lot. )

----Edit----
I just watched a couple more clips, and you're right about her intensity. I'm not as trepidacious as before. I guess my main concern now is the movie itself.

[Samari]

I agree with Jahns in this video about the more important issue being Wonder Woman in this film rather than who is going to play here. It could really take away from the element of Batman/Superman on film, which we haven't had before. And it really is putting all your eggs into one basket. Might be a good idea to have Wonder Woman introduced towards the end of the this upcoming film to further expand the scope.

Superman > expanded scope via Batman in film > further expanded scope via Wonder Woman at end/post film.

Perhaps that is how it might go down.

[willx]

Originally Posted by GDB

Both, really. My main problem with it is that they're changing iconic characters for no apparent reason other than "DIVERSITY, HO!".

I mean, it worked out so well when they changed Hal Jordon's personality, right?

I remember I thought like this when they made Nick Fury into Sam L Jackson! HO! ~ .. but then I got over it. Too much stuff gets retconned for me to feel too strongly about anything - barring intentional "race bending" ..

Please, oh please, make this movie as awesome as this was: http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Batman/Superman_Movie

[GDB]

To be fair, Ultimate Nick Fury from the highly acclaimed Ultimates (by Mark Millar) was basically designed to look like Samuel L Jackson. The movies just took their cue from that.

[Mr. DJ]

To be fair to Gadot, she's former IDF, so she has at least some fighting potential. Also, while she is rather thin, she'll have like a year or so to put on weight in time for the movie.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

Also, while she is rather thin, she'll have like a year or so to put on weight in time for the movie.

I don't think so. It's already near the end of 2013. This movie was scheduled for 2015 release, and this will be an effect-heavy movie that it needs a long post-production period. Thus, the shooting should start very soon (if not already starting) to give FX company the raw materials they could work on. I remember some time ago they were already shooting a football game of Gotham vs. Metropolis in a stadium. So, Gadot has a few months tops to bulk-up, not nearly a year.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

To be fair to Gadot, she's former IDF, so she has at least some fighting potential. Also, while she is rather thin, she'll have like a year or so to put on weight in time for the movie.

Let's be fair here, when posters say "weight" here, they really mean breast size don't they?

Depending on her role in the film, she could be needed on set immediately, or sometime near the end of summer or even fall (have to figure at least 8 months post, so filming should end by October at the latest). Whatever the case may be, I do expect some toning to be done, but not much. She wasn't hired to look like a traditional Wonder Woman (though she does look a fair bit like the DCAU Wonder Woman), she was hired because the way she looks now is what the producers are interested in (hopefully talent and ability were also factors of interest ). We can only hope that interest does not actually detract from Wonder Woman's strength and power.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by james0246

Let's be fair here, when posters say "weight" here, they really mean breast size don't they?

No, they mean the same thing they say when a male actor needs to bulk up. She's playing an Amazon, and as per Sheldon, "Amazons tend to be very beefy gals."