Attack on Titan - Episode 25 (END) Discussion / Poll

[normp571]

Guys (and gals) don't sorry there is plenty of AoT stuff to occupy your time. There is the upcoming video game, OVA (based on a side-story from the manga). The ongoing Attack on Titan: Before the Fall, the original Attack on Titan manga, and the Levi-centric spinoff which I am trying to find a spinoff of.

[normp571]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Three years wait for a continuation? That's nothing, I've seen worse, lot worse.



As if original endings generally end up being good.
You want to animate a good story from start to end? Make your own, or make an adaption of an already completed work, or a work that doesn't really rely too much on its plot.

When you make an adaption in any other case you'd need to take in account the fact that you will either end it poorly or leave it incomplete. And between the two I'd rather have the second. At least that can be "fixed" when a continuation will be made.

Maybe they'll pull an FMA/FMAB?

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by normp571

Guys (and gals) don't sorry there is plenty of AoT stuff to occupy your time. There is the upcoming video game, OVA (based on a side-story from the manga). The ongoing Attack on Titan: Before the Fall, the original Attack on Titan manga, and the Levi-centric spinoff which I am trying to find a spinoff of.

Or AoT doujinshis that sprung out of nowhere tempting fujoshis......

[JamJackEvo]

Originally Posted by NoemiChan

Or AoT doujinshis that sprung out of nowhere tempting fujoshis......

They've already been tempted. Trust me on that.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by JamJackEvo

They've already been tempted. Trust me on that.

I know. I really know.

[Zapdos316]

Hi does anyone know what song is played when Annie escapes from Eren and gets a flashback with her father? The one which sounds like call your name but violin version. I cant find it..

[Ichigo91]

There was this part where eren says "I am going to destroy the whole world" or something like that.. why does he say something like that all of a sudden?

[Winterson]

Originally Posted by Ichigo91

There was this part where eren says "I am going to destroy the whole world" or something like that.. why does he say something like that all of a sudden?

He'd succumbed to his titan instinct.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by zRichard

You are saying that if a manga reader refers to anything about the show, it's by nature a spoiler until someone denies it.

No actually I'm saying that if a manga reader refers to anything NOT SHOWN IN THE ANIME, BUT SHOWN IN THE MANGA, it's a spoiler.

Because... that's the definition of a spoiler.

And before you decide that there's no spoilers because a Titan was shown peeking through the crack in both the anime AND manga, I'll remind you that what was NOT SHOWN was anybody's reactions, actions, speculations, any other camera angles, etc.

Having a debate about possible interpretations, factual accuracy of a character's speculation, etc. when the item being speculated on is itself a spoiler, is also a spoiler.

Perhaps the Mods have given up because the cat is out of the bag, or whatever (*ahem*, mods?). It doesn't change the definitions involved.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Winterson

He'd succumbed to his titan instinct.

Titan instinct is "Eat all the humans!" though. Titans don't seem like they want to destroy the world for no reason.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by rocket

No actually I'm saying that if a manga reader refers to anything NOT SHOWN IN THE ANIME, BUT SHOWN IN THE MANGA, it's a spoiler.

Because... that's the definition of a spoiler.

And before you decide that there's no spoilers because a Titan was shown peeking through the crack in both the anime AND manga, I'll remind you that what was NOT SHOWN was anybody's reactions, actions, speculations, any other camera angles, etc.

Having a debate about possible interpretations, factual accuracy of a character's speculation, etc. when the item being speculated on is itself a spoiler, is also a spoiler.

Perhaps the Mods have given up because the cat is out of the bag, or whatever (*ahem*, mods?). It doesn't change the definitions involved.

Yeah but how do you conclude that a manga reader says something because he knows that it is true as it was confirmed in the manga or if he is just stating his own speculation based on a fact that was shown both in the manga and the anime alike?

Your logic would work better if the manga was concluded and every mystery was therefore solved, but that ain't the case.
In fact there are many things as of now where an anime watcher guess is as good as a manga reader guess, no more no less.

Isn't a bit tyrannical to forbid a manga reader to participate in any interpretation about revealed facts only because you presume that whatever they say is something that the manga already confirmed and therefore is a spoiler?

[Winterson]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Titan instinct is "Eat all the humans!" though. Titans don't seem like they want to destroy the world for no reason.

Not all titans are imbecile and or ought to devour humans just for slaughter. Titan shifters are humans and do think, but once they are outstripped from their sanity and humanity, driven by rage, they are demented to destruction. The best example of this is Eren. When he loses his focus with his goals, he turns berserk then, his thoughts get mixed up, and he cannot think anymore. He said those probably because he was crazy.

Plus, in various mythologies, titans bring destruction to the world.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Three years wait for a continuation? That's nothing, I've seen worse, lot worse.

3 years of wait? I'm not talking about any kind of 3 years of wait. I'm talking about 3 years of wait after a goddamn big cliffhanger that leaves us with nothing but excessively dramatised questions, issues and conflicts.

You're saying it's nothing because you've seen worse? The existence of something worse negates the faults of those that are less bad? So from your point of view, because killing a pregnant woman is atrocious, then killing a grown up man is fine?

You're saying that you've seen worse? Then, name me one anime that ended with an inconclusive ending, mysteries all over the place and unresolved conflicts everywhere + still got another season after 4 years or more. I can name a few too for the years of waiting condition (like Rozen Maiden), but nothing if I include the others.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As if original endings generally end up being good.

Define original "ending", because SnK's ending certainly wasn't. And even if it was, it was good, which beats the point.

Define "General". Because in my vocabulary it's not the same as "every". The point is, you're talking like anime ending in general is "good", they are mostly all complete not good. How "good" it is depends on how skilled the writer is. And good anime original endings do exist.

What's the reason why everyone hates original endings? Because they are mediocre? Most anime/manga endings out there are just as mediocre.
Or is it because the manga's ending is always better (or less mediocre)? Probably this. But I don't know, soul eater's manga ending looked much worse than the anime one to me, even if the path that leads there was much better and covered more things.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You want to animate a good story from start to end? Make your own, or make an adaption of an already completed work, or a work that doesn't really rely too much on its plot.

Are you implying this ending butchered SnK's plot and made it really bad? Can you explain me how? Because no matter how I look at it, it was good. Not a masterpiece but good.
The manga was better? Maybe, but it's a minus if the anime has done that way. That reveal was bad? Then, explain me how.
Because it was supposed to be dramatic? The anime's isn't supposed to be.

Shifting the debate to actual anime original endings, FMA (2003) was also good from start to end. As you can see, it's possible to do a good anime without following that recommendation of yours.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

When you make an adaption in any other case you'd need to take in account the fact that you will either end it poorly or leave it incomplete. And between the two I'd rather have the second. At least that can be "fixed" when a continuation will be made.

And you're talking like this ending can't be fixed either? Can you explain me how?

Shifting the debate to anime original endings. They just have to remake it.

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by Zapdos316

Hi does anyone know what song is played when Annie escapes from Eren and gets a flashback with her father? The one which sounds like call your name but violin version. I cant find it..

If you can't find it then it may be in the second OST, which hasn't come out yet.

Originally Posted by rocket

Perhaps the Mods have given up because the cat is out of the bag, or whatever (*ahem*, mods?). It doesn't change the definitions involved.

I think the mods aren't really moderating this thread for 2 reasons, 1 the vast majority of the people here have or will have read the manga continuation. 2. This is my speculation but since the season ended, if you think about it from their point of view, how many anime have ended with the manga still going? They can't possible know and moderate every single past series for spoilers on an anime thread. There's no point to do it either.

[Jan-Poo]

desrtsku first calm down, take a breath and try to understand what people are saying without assuming that they are there only to claim that everything that you think is wrong.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

3 years of wait? I'm not talking about any kind of 3 years of wait. I'm talking about 3 years of wait after a goddamn big cliffhanger that leaves us with nothing but excessively dramatised questions, issues and conflicts.

You're saying it's nothing because you've seen worse? The existence of something worse negates the faults of those that are less bad? So from your point of view, because killing a pregnant woman is atrocious, then killing a grown up man is fine?

You're saying that you've seen worse? Then, name me one anime that ended with an inconclusive ending, mysteries all over the place and unresolved conflicts everywhere + still got another season after 4 years or more. I can name a few too for the years of waiting condition (like Rozen Maiden), but nothing if I include the others.

Now I never implied anything about a long wait being fine or not. And comparing it to a crime is really out there. It almost seems that to you waiting for a continuation of an anime is as bad as a mass murder.
That's really not that bad, and really I don't think it should be, not to that extent, but I'm not denying that waiting three years or more is definitely not desirable.

Want a proof? Then look at what I wrote when I first heard that an anime adaption was announced.

If we disagree on something is that an original ending would have been better. No, perhaps it would have been better for you, but it would have made a lot more people pissed and even more dissatisfied.
A cliffhanger in my book is the lesser of the two evil.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Define original "ending", because SnK's ending certainly wasn't. And even if it was, it was good, which beats the point.

I seriously don't know why you think that anything that I said implied that I think this ending was an original ending. It was altered in many parts but original ending? Not at all, and at least I can say I'm relieved of that even though some changes were pointless if they were supposed to reduce the cliffhanger effect, because they didn't, and they just ended up diminishing the quality of the story.

Besides I'm not following you anymore, you are apparently claiming that "original ending" is better than a "cliffhanger ending" and yet you deny (correctly) that this episode was an original ending and yet you say it was good.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Define "General". Because in my vocabulary it's not the same as "every". The point is, you're talking like anime ending in general is "good", they are mostly all complete not good. How "good" it is depends on how skilled the writer is. And good anime original endings do exist.

If I say "general" I obviously acknowledge that exceptions exist but usually they are bad. There is no need to define it since you understood it well enough. "Contrived" is probably the major flaw of original endings, but most often than not it isn't even the fault of those who make an adaption it's simply that a story especially if complex isn't made of clay and you can't manipulate it as you want without causing a lot of plot holes and inconsistencies.

If some original anime are good that just means that the conditions were right, which is something rare, and that the writers were particularly skilled, which is also relatively rare, because skilled writers usually don't need to adapt stories written by someone else.

Anime ending in general being mediocre? Yeah I've seen my share of bad anime endings, but statistically worse or on par with original endings? Not even close.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

What's the reason why everyone hates original endings? Because they are mediocre? Most anime/manga endings out there are just as mediocre.
Or is it because the manga's ending is always better (or less mediocre)? Probably this. But I don't know, soul eater's manga ending looked much worse than the anime one to me, even if the path that leads there was much better and covered more things.

You seem to acknowledge that everyone thinks that original endings are worse than official endings. Then can we just agree that it's just your opinion that they are not?
Or are you really implying that those who adapt anime shouldn't care about the reception of the fan?
If the reception of original ending is negative, then original endings should just be avoided.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Are you implying this ending butchered SnK's plot and made it really bad? Can you explain me how? Because no matter how I look at it, it was good. Not a masterpiece but good.
The manga was better? Maybe, but it's a minus if the anime has done that way. That reveal was bad? Then, explain me how.
Because it was supposed to be dramatic? The anime's isn't supposed to be.

Here you just go on a tangent and assume what I never said nor implied.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Shifting the debate to actual anime original endings, FMA (2003) was also good from start to end. As you can see, it's possible to do a good anime without following that recommendation of yours.

Honestly the original FMA was really good perhaps even more than Brotherhood until it followed the manga, then it went downhill and while the ending and the resolution of all the plots wasn't awful it was still mediocre in my opinion. Beside I could really feel the change of storytelling even if I never read the manga.

So if you ask me, that's not really a good example.
Plotwise Brotherhood is a lot more solid and a lot less clicheed even if the adaption lacked in atmosphere.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

And you're talking like this ending can't be fixed either? Can you explain me how?

Shifting the debate to anime original endings. They just have to remake it.

Since I never implied that this was an original ending I can't see how I implied that this ending can't be fixed. But I did say previously that it will be hard. Well probably hard isn't the right word, but I think it will end up something contrived to explain how the various characters notice the titan inside the wall. And... well I can't go too much on details but there's something in particular that will seem odd if it happens delayed of a day or more rather than right away.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A cliffhanger in my book is the lesser of the two evil.

The problem with that idea of cliffhanger vs conclusive in the manner people are discussing is that there is not some either/or principle at work here where "properly adapting the revelation of titans in the wall = huge cliffhanger" and "poorly adapting the revelation of titans in the wall in a post credit scene = conclusive ending".

For starters, the anime as it stands is not conclusive.

The titans are not remotely close to being defeated.
The question of where the titans came from is unanswered.
The question of how humans can transform into titans is unanswered.
The question of what's in Eren's old basement is unanswered.
The question of where Annie came from, and why she did what she did is unanswered.
The question of who created the walls remains unanswered.
And the final scene is a colossal titan apparently prepared to burst out of, or burst through the innermost wall.

and generally speaking it just ends on a note of "And they will continue to keep fighting!"

That's not conclusive in most people's books.

Properly adapting the reveal of the titan aspects of chapter's 33-34 on the other hand makes the following changes:

No cliffhanger with the titan in the wall as characters are around to react and respond to deal with it as the do in the manga.
The question of how the walls were created is partially answered.
As such a new mystery, and new leads are introduced for the characters to ponder.
The anime ends on the same final pre-credit scenes as it currently does.

Some things answered, some new questions raised, but it ends at a point where it does not appear something immediate is about to happen. Ultimately the only difference is that a couple new questions are clearly raised, that the anime merely implies as it stands.

Still not conclusive, but a far cry from the "Horrible, horrible cliffhanger!" that people are attempting to make it out to be.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Krono

Still not conclusive, but a far cry from the "Horrible, horrible cliffhanger!" that people are attempting to make it out to be.

As a manga reader I probably lack the right perspective to determine how bad a story ending like that leaves the watchers. So I'm not going to say anything about how "horrible, horrible cliffhanger" this is, I don't know, as a matter of facts: I don't care.

(note: the following thoughts are not directed to you Krono, but to everyone in general)

I believe that no matter how bad a cliffhanger is that's still not a good reason to wish for an original ending instead. Because in the end isn't what bothers people about cliffhangers the fact that they want to know what happens next, or the fact they want to know what's the story behind the many mysteries?

That's fine actually. But what do you want to know exactly? The answers as the author of the story thought them or any answer goes for you? You know, just because this is an anime it doesn't mean that the manga author has nothing to do with it, he is properly credited in the opening. Until proven otherwise he is the one who wrote the story that you have been watching animated so far, not someone else.
So I can't really relate to anyone who somehow prefers to think that said author doesn't exist and that he is fine if someone else other than the author who begun the story will made up some answers in his place.
Would it have been okay for you if the last book of "Harry Potter" or "The Dark Tower" was written by someone else?
As a matter of facts if an author of a series of books died nobody would be supposed to pick it up and give it a closure, and even if someone did it wouldn't have much value for most readers. I think there are a few incomplete works like that but that's it, it sucks but it's not a good reason to have a fake finishing the job.
I really can't see why it should be different for anime. Because the author's name isn't spelled out in giant characters on the cover? Because most subs don't even translate the credits so you can't even notice that an original author exists?

But even if you were given an original ending it doesn't mean that the author will not continue to write the story as he intended, which means the original ending will still leave you ignorant about that. You won't know anything more, you'll just get some kind of alternative ending and alternative answers. And that is supposed to appease you somehow? Suddenly your curiosity is sated even if someone somewhere who has more rights than everyone else to write how things go and how they happened is writing a different version? Wouldn't you be still curious to know that?
Personally I would, I mean I can't even understand why I shouldn't, so it's very hard for me to relate to that.

[JamJackEvo]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Would it have been okay for you if the last book of "Harry Potter" or "The Dark Tower" was written by someone else?

You reminded me of the years of wait between installments of The Dark Tower series. The longest Stephen King made the fans wait was 6 years after the release of DT 3, and DT 3 ended in a major cliffhanger, too. Can't really say if people went batshit crazy during the interval since I was in diapers when DT 3 was out.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As a matter of facts if an author of a series of books died nobody would be supposed to pick it up and give it a closure, and even if someone did it wouldn't have much value for most readers. I think there are a few incomplete works like that but that's it, it sucks but it's not a good reason to have a fake finishing the job.

Familiar of Zero is one such series.

Also Kaze no Stigma.

[Byakou]

Would a second season really wrap up the story? Seeing as in season 1 they've made pretty much 0 progress. Haven't retaken the first wall. Haven't searched the basement. Haven't found out what titans are or where they come from. Haven't even been outside the walls. Seems like it would take lots of seasons to fill those blanks.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But even if you were given an original ending it doesn't mean that the author will not continue to write the story as he intended, which means the original ending will still leave you ignorant about that. You won't know anything more, you'll just get some kind of alternative ending and alternative answers. And that is supposed to appease you somehow? Suddenly your curiosity is sated even if someone somewhere who has more rights than everyone else to write how things go and how they happened is writing a different version? Wouldn't you be still curious to know that?
Personally I would, I mean I can't even understand why I shouldn't, so it's very hard for me to relate to that.

Personally agree with this very strongly. Because if the author continues writing, it just means that what comes before might have been foreshadowing and hooks and original endings just don't cut it. My first brush was with FMA in the early 2000s, whose original ending somehow left much to be desired in me. I just had a hunch that it isn't the real ending (even though it was very well done), and started reading the manga. Mind blown. From then on, I became an avid manga reader (well, when time permits).