Teresa vs. Priscilla: What Really Happened?

[Shiek927]

Loosely paraphrasing Hedgy?

[HegemonKhan]

usually.. unless i know the source (and not lazy to look up the exact quote) or the exact quote off-hand, which is rare

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Underestimate? Most of you guys annoying call her a Goddess

Peopel are sick and annoyed of Teresa often and want Claire to get stronger by her own strength. I know the feeling; sometimes I just want Teresa to just disappear from memory.

Yeah and so do most of the guys speak of galatea, so what?
As for her strength she is undoubtly with priscilla superior to every other claymore so far. And there are imo enough hints in the manga to believe that she is able to even easily outclass priscilla by raw talent.
A few examples:
1. There was a discussion if all of the ghosts who fought agatha at rabona would stand a chance against theresa
2. Alicia and Beth stats are higher than those of theresa's

People like you are sick and annoyed of theresa.
And i find it arrogant to say that clare made a mistake in taking on theresa's flesh and going out for revenge. Judged by whom, by you? Clare is one of the characters with the strongest spirit in claymore but even she can not loose theresa who gave her back her language and her joy for living and simply go on living a normal life as a human. IMO clare made this decision, because it would have been an impossibility for her to just forget what happened. Her life would be a miserable one. IMO you can not speak here of a boo-boo or a mistake at all. It is simply a decision and it was clare's. There is no right or wrong here imo. I think theresa would have understood her and would have done the same.
I like clare for what she is, i don't want a stainless and soulless character as a hero. We have enough of those in other stories.
By the way what do you mean with "it goes better and better". As you say it it sounds as if clare made mistake after mistake. Perhaps from your point of view but not from my point of view.

[Shiek927]

People like you are sick and annoyed of theresa.
And i find it arrogant to say that clare made a mistake in taking on theresa's flesh and going out for revenge. Judged by whom, by you? Clare is one of the characters with the strongest spirit in claymore but even she can not loose theresa who gave her back her language and her joy for living and simply go on living a normal life as a human. IMO clare made this decision, because it would have been an impossibility for her to just forget what happened. Her life would be a miserable one. IMO you can not speak here of a boo-boo or a mistake at all. It is simply a decision and it was clare's. There is no right or wrong here imo. I think theresa would have understood her and would have done the same.
I like clare for what she is, i don't want a stainless and soulless character as a hero. We have enough of those in other stories.
By the way what do you mean with "it goes better and better". As you say it it sounds as if clare made mistake after mistake. Perhaps from your point of view but not from my point of view.

Reading all this Irvine, makes me think of what Gangsta said about talking as if you're point of view is the right one, because that's how you're presenting yourself.

Teresa, Irene and Rafaela have all made it clear that Claire is far from perfect. She's purposely closed herself off from everyone around her and has purposely led a very harsh life in hopes for a goal as selfish as revenge, which may not even happen.

Yes, it gets better and better , when has she ever made a decision that could have been done better or less recklessly? Raki is lucky he managed to worm his way into her heart, otherwise she would be completely alone. Saying Teresa would have done the same is ridiculous because she's made it clear to Claire that she wanted her to live a happy human life, which is why she let her , go at first.

I'm honestly not trying to hate her because I don't, she really is a good person at heart, but if you're implying that I think of her as a "stainless character", you're honestly doing that more then I am by saying she's basically never made a bad decision and has merely made her own choices. Hate to break it to you, but Claire is extremely far from being anywhere close to perfect .

You're presenting yourself very strangely Irvine because you say everyone has their own point of view(which is correct), but you're saying yours quite aggresively as if yours is correct and everyone must follow

And, for the record, I never really liked the overappreciation Galatea recieves either. I'm not really a fan of either her or Teresa.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Reading all this Irvine, makes me think of what Gangsta said about talking as if you're point of view is the right one, because that's how you're presenting yourself.

Teresa, Irene and Rafaela have all made it clear that Claire is far from perfect. She's purposely closed herself off from everyone around her and has purposely led a very harsh life in hopes for a goal as selfish as revenge, which may not even happen.

Yes, it gets better and better , when has she ever made a decision that could have been done better or less recklessly? Raki is lucky he managed to worm his way into her heart, otherwise she would be completely alone. Saying Teresa would have done the same is ridiculous because she's made it clear to Claire that she wanted her to live a happy human life, which is why she let her , go at first.

I'm honestly not trying to hate her because I don't, she really is a good person at heart, but if you're implying that I think of her as a "stainless character", you're honestly doing that more then I am by saying she's basically never made a bad decision and has merely made her own choices. Hate to break it to you, but Claire is extremely far from being anywhere close to perfect .

You're presenting yourself very strangely Irvine because you say everyone has their own point of view(which is correct), but you're saying yours quite aggresively as if yours is correct and everyone must follow

And, for the record, I never really liked the overappreciation Galatea recieves either. I'm not really a fan of either her or Teresa.

Teresa wanted a life as a human for clare before priscilla killed theresa in a dirty sneak attack. What theresa would have done instead of clare is speculation. I think that she would have seeked out revenge too. You are saying that i think that my point is the only valid one and a few lines later you call what i write ridiculous? A word you used a few times against me by now. Who is presenting himself strangely and arrogant here?
It should be clear that this sneak attack and the fact that theresa spared priscilla's life over and over again combined with clare's loss changed everything. I doubt that she can forget everything and life on as if nothing happened after something like that. You wrote it yourself: Theresa wanted clare to live a happy life amongst humans. That wasn't possible after that day anymore for clare because she never would be happy that way. So i think that still staying human wasn't an option for clare anymore and i think that theresa would have understood it and agreed with clare that under those circumstances this was probably her best option. It is perhaps not how yagi would say it but it is far from ridiculous, believe me!
That clare was reckless?
In order to fight priscilla she never avoided any fight and played even by ophelia's rules only to prove herself that she could beat some day priscilla. From her point of view this isn't reckless or stupid at all. And she wanted to be alone. there is nothing wrong about this. She simply did not want to get their comrades involved into her unfinished buisness.
I didn't imply that you think of her as a "stainless character" i only said that i do not want such a thing because we have enough stainless heroes in other stories.
Your "it is getting better and better" implies that she acts like an unreasonable stupid person who only seeks revenge and ignores everything else, making tactical and logical mistake after mistake.
The only thing she could be blamed for is when she lost her composure after she heard from riful in a pressure situation the first time something about the location of priscilla.
Perhaps when she wanted to leave irene with only one arm okay, this is the second one i can think of.

[HegemonKhan]

you both have strong views and both think you are right.....

one of you likes clare's pursuit of revenge/justice and the other doesn't

neither of you are right or wrong, but both of you believe you are right and insult the other as being wrong just because they don't share your view...

clare is who she is, like it or dislike it, clare is clare.

as we get new chapters, we'll find out what happens and becomes of clare, if she continues to solely pursue revenge or if she "moved on" to other things that are important, like the protection of the entire island from the Organization and Destroyer.

[irvinethearcher]

neither of you are right or wrong, but both of you believe you are right and insult the other as being wrong just because they don't share your view...

I have not insulted him, he called what i wrote ridiculous. I never said that i was definetely right.

He said that clare made mistake after mistake, implied that she acted like a fool, when she took on theresa's flesh against theresa's will which was unknown because she was already deceased and as i wrote the rules changed after her death so what teresa wanted for clare when she send her to the village in the mountains could be entirely different from what the already deceased theresa would have wanted for clare.
After the bandits incident theresa must have seen for herself that "living happy as a human" was not that easy as it seemed to be.
And he did not say that it was his own opinion he wrote it as if it is an undenieable fact. Perhaps i overdid it but
instead of writing "people are sick and annyoed of theresa" writing "there are people who are sick and annoyed of theresa" sounds more friendly to me.
Second instead of writing "Well, her taking her body and becoming a Claymore is the first boo-boo she made." it sounds imo more friendly to write
"Well, i think her taking her body and becoming a Claymore is the first boo-boo she made."

But you are probably right neither of us here is wrong or right.

[Shiek927]

Irvine, do me a favor okay?

Show me where I called what you wrote ridiculous.

Otherwise, you're just putting words in my mouth, and I'm rather sick lately of people saying I'm saying stuff which I don't ever recall.

Otherwise, you're getting angry and upset over nothing. You have this strange idea that I'm attacking you personally when I've never purposelly done such a thing, ever, on this forum to anyone. If you're mad that I have a different opinion then you, then just get over it because complaining like this, writing "you" bolded and acting like I'm personally offending you is, well, ridiculous.

So either point and quote the words where I offended you and I'll try to explain, otherwise, stop spreading bad things about people and getting upset and angry over nothing. You used the word "ridiculous" more then once, so I'm gonna assume what I said had that word.

Remember, this is just another debate, if we can't even debate without getting personally offended anymore, then God, what's the point of being here?

Jesus Christ

[irvinethearcher]

Saying Teresa would have done the same is ridiculous because she's made it clear to Claire that she wanted her to live a happy human life, which is why she let her , go at first.

Okay, okay, perhaps i am not in the right mood too and perhaps i should have avoided calling you "arrogant" too. So i think we are even by now.
Sometimes i am a bit hot headed. If the spelling is wrong it is probably because of the lack of a spell checker.

[HegemonKhan]

clare's complicated, and what's worse, we don't know at all what she is thinking.

clare cares about others, not letting anyone die (like in the agatha scene), and really cares about raki, whom she was just trying (and about) to find had rubel not tricked her to go to riful and awaken the destroyer from rafaela's body. yet, underneath all of these "developments" clare continues onward towards her goal of revenge against priscilla. clare presses on, for the shere purpose of revenge/justice on priscilla. clare's desire for revenge/justice is what makes clare so "iron-willed" and stubborn and never quiting or giving up.

we can also look at her past:

1. watched a yoma kill and eat her parents and brother.

2. the yoma changed into her brother's body and jumped on her, but a claymore apeared and killed it.

3. clare is orphaned, isn't taken by the Organization to become a claymore, and some how survives on her own.

4. clare encounters another yoma, which makes her, it's "toy". we know that it physically abuses her, and it's not unreasonable to think it might have sexually abused clare as well.

5. clare finally finds some one as miserable as herself. Teresa, whom also saves her from the yoma using her as a "toy".

6. gradually, due to clare's stubborn iron-willed persistance, clare causes teresa to slowly befriend her, like her, and care about her.

7. both of them finally know happiness for the first time in their lives.

8. than the bandits attack and cause teresa to kill them, to save clare, whom she left in town.

9. this unfortunately marked teresa for death. making teresa and clare's time, on "borrowed" time.

10. however, teresa is so powerful it doesn't matter. so it seems like teresa and clare can be together for a long time.

11. unfortunately, clare made teresa human again, which made teresa soft....

12. teresa looks at priscilla and sees clare, going all soft and merciful.

13. this results in teresa's death.

14. clare watched her beloved teresa killed by priscilla...

15. clare and teresa 's tiny moment of happiness was stolen from her/them.

16. clare had lost everything, all she had was revenge, which she pointed her stubborn iron-will towards with tunnel vision focus.

17. calre finds rubel and demands him put teresa's head, which she is holding, into her to become a claymore, so that she may take priscilla's head.

18. clare struggles through the hardships of becoming a claymore, even smashing her shoulder back into socket, after trying to fight with another claymore, who mocks and challenges clare's ability of being a claymore, of being able to get revenge on priscilla. clare would have known of that, but than rubel stops the fight from continuing...

19. clare becomes a claymore after a uber impressive performance in the final test as a trainee.

20. clare encounters raki and they befriend each other.

21. clare starts to care about raki, having feelings and caring for another again...

22. clare and raki go through lots of struggle together.

23. clare and raki get seaparated because of ophelia.

24. clare goes through more struggle, forced to save everyone...

25. clare still yearns to find and be with raki again.

26. clare still yearns to take priscilla's head...

clare is extremely complicated....

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

Okay, okay, perhaps i am not in the right mood too and perhaps i should have avoided calling you "arrogant" too. So i think we are even by now.
Sometimes i am a bit hot headed. If the spelling is wrong it is probably because of the lack of a spell checker.

So that's what this was all about?

Well, if you're really this offended by what I wrote, then I suppose I should have worded what I said differently. My feelings on the matter though, haven't changed.

That said Irvine, I want to make something clear: I am never hot-headed over anything I debate because I'm just too damn casual for it. You'll notice wheneever I write, I don't write with scientific proof, links, pictures or whatever like some of the older posters do, partly because I'm too stupid for them anyway. I'm one of the younger posters and don't have a degree or anything. My recent debate with Gangsta in the Raki Thread has shown this, as I think and speak with emotions much more often then logic. I post and type the way I talk in real life rather then try to be fancy with my wording or do something over the top to prove my point.

So whenever I write, I'm not secretly trying to drill my thoughts and point of views into other people's heads despite how passionately I may sound. Point I'm trying to make is, if ever you or anyone reads one of my posts and it comes off as aggressive or arrogant, remember that I'm not trying to make it that way. I never try to get upset over debates, even the ones I try to defend and end up losing because that's not what they are made for and I've lost quite a few and that's not going to stop. It's why I get confused when people start making things personally(Raki thread) because at that point, we're not even arguing the issue anymore.

At least this matter is over with

[Gangsta Spanksta]

While planning to take Revenge on someone is probably not the most Rational of things to do, Clare wanting to do so is something I totally can understand. I talked about this before, but Clare's world is a bit different from our own; there is no clear way to get Justice in it. The Organization, only kills Yoma for money. There are no courts or law enforcement that are clearly seen in the story, and besides even if there was there would be nothing they could do about Priscilla. Clare had taken away the one person that was her everything in the world, so she throws out rationality in favor for loyalty. I can quite honestly say that I would do the same, if we didn't have a justice system in place that takes care of these things. Irvine is right; Clare said it herself, that she couldn't keep Teresa, that she wasn't strong enough to keep on living as a human once she lost her. Clare is not perfect, and I don't like perfect characters, because it is character flaws that make characters interesting. Clare had lost her everything and being loyal to Teresa wanted to avenge her, so she gave up everything to avenge the one person that mattered most to her, and that was her whole purpose of living until Raki gave her another. But anyway, Clare is not irrational while trying to seek her revenge in that she makes sure that other people don't get negatively impacted by her goal. She puts her quest for revenge on hold to save fellow Claymores. She has a higher priority in finding Raki than seeking her revenge. The concept itself is irrational, but Clare generally makes sure she doesn't endanger others by her actions, IMO.

[HegemonKhan]

clare is "reckless" (as the manga-characters often say about clare) which endangers others, laughs, but despite her "recklessness" she always get's the job done and the others always make it out alive and relatively unharmed.... lol

i loved clare deciding to chop yuma / uma 's leg off when she couldn't chop dauf's hand off, when he had yuma / uma grabbed in his hand

"reckless" clare... but she had cynthia right there... and it was better than letting dauf kill yuma / uma, or having to reveal/release her yoki, use her quick sword, and true power...

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

So that's what this was all about?

Well, if you're really this offended by what I wrote, then I suppose I should have worded what I said differently. My feelings on the matter though, haven't changed.

That said Irvine, I want to make something clear: I am never hot-headed over anything I debate because I'm just too damn casual for it. You'll notice wheneever I write, I don't write with scientific proof, links, pictures or whatever like some of the older posters do, partly because I'm too stupid for them anyway. I'm one of the younger posters and don't have a degree or anything. My recent debate with Gangsta in the Raki Thread has shown this, as I think and speak with emotions much more often then logic. I post and type the way I talk in real life rather then try to be fancy with my wording or do something over the top to prove my point.

So whenever I write, I'm not secretly trying to drill my thoughts and point of views into other people's heads despite how passionately I may sound. Point I'm trying to make is, if ever you or anyone reads one of my posts and it comes off as aggressive or arrogant, remember that I'm not trying to make it that way. I never try to get upset over debates, even the ones I try to defend and end up losing because that's not what they are made for and I've lost quite a few and that's not going to stop. It's why I get confused when people start making things personally(Raki thread) because at that point, we're not even arguing the issue anymore.

At least this matter is over with

It is okay, i am a hothead myself i know that quite well, therefore my sympathy for clare , at least clare is calm on the surface.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

clare is "reckless" (as the manga-characters often say about clare) which endangers others, laughs, but despite her "recklessness" she always get's the job done and the others always make it out alive and relatively unharmed.... lol

i loved clare deciding to chop yuma / uma 's leg off when she couldn't chop dauf's hand off, when he had yuma / uma grabbed in his hand

"reckless" clare... but she had cynthia right there... and it was better than letting dauf kill yuma / uma, or having to reveal/release her yoki, use her quick sword, and true power...

No, while clare might occasionally engage in a reckless act, she is mislabeled as Reckless by others. Clare's reputation is ill-deserved, because whenever she does something that people say is reckless, there is no other choice. Clare going into Riful's layer? Each time it was to save someone, where she ended up saving Gene's life, and this last time she wanted to save Rene despite her saying it was for Rafaela. Going to the town early before miria and group arrives? That was to save civilians, because Clare couldn't idly sit on her hands, when it is the orgs policy to let a few more people get killed while they wait for an entire group to be formed. Clare was unwilling to let those people die. There is usually a reason to Clare's madness.

[irvinethearcher]

Like when she catched the first blow which was destined to hit helen from the paburo AB. Helen called her an idiot for that as far as i remember.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

No, while clare might occasionally engage in a reckless act, she is mislabeled as Reckless by others. Clare's reputation is ill-deserved, because whenever she does something that people say is reckless, there is no other choice. Clare going into Riful's layer? Each time it was to save someone, where she ended up saving Gene's life, and this last time she wanted to save Rene despite her saying it was for Rafaela. Going to the town early before miria and group arrives? That was to save civilians, because Clare couldn't idly sit on her hands, when it is the orgs policy to let a few more people get killed while they wait for an entire group to be formed. Clare was unwilling to let those people die. There is usually a reason to Clare's madness.

Clare going into Riful's lair where there was an awakened former number 3 AND an abyssal one. Her chances of survival against such opponents could be considered as slim. As powerful as Clare was, she was still no match for a number 1, let alone an abyssal.

The group to tackle the Yoma from the town had been formed due to reports that there could be an awakened one in that town. If the reports had been true and there really was an awakened one rather than a pack of Yoma, Clare would've been done for. As things are, her whole group who took the awakened one on the mountain side with Miria, Helen and Deneve nearly resulted in all their deaths. By herself, Clare would surely have died.

There is a reason for Clare's recklessness, yes, but it's still reckless because she always rushed into combat without knowing the full situation of what was happening on the battlefield.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Clare going into Riful's lair where there was an awakened former number 3 AND an abyssal one. Her chances of survival against such opponents could be considered as slim. As powerful as Clare was, she was still no match for a number 1, let alone an abyssal.

The group to tackle the Yoma from the town had been formed due to reports that there could be an awakened one in that town. If the reports had been true and there really was an awakened one rather than a pack of Yoma, Clare would've been done for. As things are, her whole group who took the awakened one on the mountain side with Miria, Helen and Deneve nearly resulted in all their deaths. By herself, Clare would surely have died.

There is a reason for Clare's recklessness, yes, but it's still reckless because she always rushed into combat without knowing the full situation of what was happening on the battlefield.

Actually, that doesn't make Clare reckless; that makes Clare a heroine. Using your logic, the firemen who rushed into the twin towers would be reckless, because they did not know the conditions of the building, if it was going to collapse at any moment and so forth, they just rushed in to save people. That's not being reckless. Clare went into Riful's layer knowing full well that there was an awakened being, knowing that meant that chances for her survival were low, but she went in anyway, despite knowing that, because she is the kind of person who risks her lives for others. Risking your life for others, despite the chances of success, does not make you reckless. Reckless implies that someone does something without fully comprehending the consequences upon themselves and others. When Clare does something, due to the fact that she is a heroine, there is no other choice for her to make. She doesn't really do things that may endanger others. There are a few exception, in that she almost got tricked by Riful into awakening, but I put that down to the heat of battle, where people make mistakes, like Miria completely losing her ability to do anything for a moment with Rigaldo. It is not something you can hold against either character, since it is not something done on purpose and is due to extreme conditions where it could happen to anyone. But generally speaking, Clare actions are based on that she tries to save lives, not an irrational action, and she is willing to sacrafice herself to do so. Most people on here think Clare is actually Irrational because she doesn't follow Miria's orders to a T, but Clare never really joined Miria's Army. She is not Mirias soldier but her Ally. That means she doesn't have to do what Miria says, but she rather helps Miria because they have some of the same goals and well she actually cares for Miria. But if you think that Clare should follow what Miria tells her to do, then you are wrong.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Actually, that doesn't make Clare reckless; that makes Clare a heroine. Using your logic, the firemen who rushed into the twin towers would be reckless, because they did not know the conditions of the building, if it was going to collapse at any moment and so forth, they just rushed in to save people. That's not being reckless. Clare went into Riful's layer knowing full well that there was an awakened being, knowing that meant that chances for her survival were low, but she went in anyway, despite knowing that, because she is the kind of person who risks her lives for others. Risking your life for others, despite the chances of success, does not make you reckless. Reckless implies that someone does something without fully comprehending the consequences upon themselves and others. When Clare does something, due to the fact that she is a heroine, there is no other choice for her to make. She doesn't really do things that may endanger others. There are a few exception, in that she almost got tricked by Riful into awakening, but I put that down to the heat of battle, where people make mistakes, like Miria completely losing her ability to do anything for a moment with Rigaldo. It is not something you can hold against either character, since it is not something done on purpose and is due to extreme conditions where it could happen to anyone. But generally speaking, Clare actions are based on that she tries to save lives, not an irrational action, and she is willing to sacrafice herself to do so. Most people on here think Clare is actually Irrational because she doesn't follow Miria's orders to a T, but Clare never really joined Miria's Army. She is not Mirias soldier but her Ally. That means she doesn't have to do what Miria says, but she rather helps Miria because they have some of the same goals and well she actually cares for Miria. But if you think that Clare should follow what Miria tells her to do, then you are wrong.

While I give you Heroic in spades... she is also reckless. She left Flora's side to save Jean knowing the risks and Jeans wish.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Ryus

While I give you Heroic in spades... she is also reckless. She left Flora's side to save Jean knowing the risks and Jeans wish.

But is that recklessness or loyalty in that case? What could she have done to protect Flora from Rigaldo without half awakening?