Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Dean_the_Young]

The 'complete'? Please clarify; I don't recall it at all in the anime, but I admit to not paying much attention to side material. What you said could apply to nearly any point in the anime starting with Mao's appearance. She certainly knew he didn't hate her in S1, and what you said still leaves the matter of after Lelouch, and how much she wants eternity as opposed to giving up immortality and simply leaving the Code with Suzaku while she lives the rest of her days out peacefully.

It certainly doesn't rule out giving Suzaku a Geass, even without the intention of transfering the Code later. Since Suzaku is the enactor of his and Lelouch's final conspiracy, if he led her to believe that it was needed to keep that dream alive, she'd be more willing to give him the means to do so.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The 'complete'? Please clarify; I don't recall it at all in the anime, but I admit to not paying much attention to side material.

It's a booklet that covers a number of things from the end of the series, among other events that were rushed through in the anime. C.C.'s feelings are among the things covered.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It certainly doesn't rule out giving Suzaku a Geass, even without the intention of transfering the Code later. Since Suzaku is the enactor of his and Lelouch's final conspiracy, if he led her to believe that it was needed to keep that dream alive, she'd be more willing to give him the means to do so.

Suzaku hates Geass, so he certainly wouldn't be asking for it willingly. The Geass command placed on him only reacts to imminent death, not the inevitable natural end of his lifespan. By the time it compels him to gain the Code, assuming it does, he'll never find C.C.

[snowdevil_crow]

Ha, Suzaku getting a Geass and getting CC's Code? That happened in my fic XD

And I understand it's a bit of a crack theory, but it does make me wonder... you know that last line he says to Lelouch? "I accept that Geass." Hm. He hates Geass, but he also hated what Zero stood for. It's very, very unlikely it happened, but I'm pretty sure I'm okay with saying the possibility is definitely still there... and if he took CC's Code eventually, it would mean Zero could remain and he would stay alive forever, eternally punished and forever atoning for his sins by helping the world. Which sounds like something he wouldn't entirely dislike doing... >_>

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

And I understand it's a bit of a crack theory, but it does make me wonder... you know that last line he says to Lelouch? "I accept that Geass." Hm. He hates Geass, but he also hated what Zero stood for. It's very, very unlikely it happened, but I'm pretty sure I'm okay with saying the possibility is definitely still there... and if he took CC's Code eventually, it would mean Zero could remain and he would stay alive forever, eternally punished and forever atoning for his sins by helping the world. Which sounds like something he wouldn't entirely dislike doing... >_>

There's a difference between a metaphor and a power that bends others to the user's will (well, not in every case, but to an extent). As for him actually doing it, he would dislike doing, which is why he'd do it.

[Aquaman OS]

Pretty much everyone including Lelouch came to view Geass as a terrible thing by the end of the show. It's unlikely more would be given out, at least by C.C.

[synaesthetic]

And not all Geass are as insidious as Lelouch's or the Emperor's.

Both Bismarck and Rolo had Geass that did nothing to alter the will or directly harm a person and could easily be used for noble goals. So could Mao's, for that matter.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

And not all Geass are as insidious as Lelouch's or the Emperor's.

Both Bismarck and Rolo had Geass that did nothing to alter the will or directly harm a person and could easily be used for noble goals. So could Mao's, for that matter.

That's random, and Suzaku is a very black and white kind of guy. "Geass is a sin," remember?

[snowdevil_crow]

Ah, but he was willing to drench his hands completely in sin by the end of the show, right? So, if he thought it was for the sake of the world... I can imagine him accepting being the last and only bearer of a Geass and then Code. *shrug*

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Ah, but he was willing to drench his hands completely in sin by the end of the show, right? So, if he thought it was for the sake of the world... I can imagine him accepting being the last and only bearer of a Geass and then Code. *shrug*

By the end, Suzaku had realized that he couldn't do shit on his own, and his efforts were just getting people killed. He backed the winning horse and all that came with it. Now that the deed is done, he's not going to reintroduce sin "just in case."

[Xcmreo]

I simply don't understand Suzaku, did he ever had a fixed purpose in his life anyways?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Xcmreo

I simply don't understand Suzaku, did he ever had a fixed purpose in his life anyways?

Yes. Trying to end the fighting, change the natures of everything, and bring peace. Just like Lulu, except he was also trying to avoid repeating his past, which was why his approach was diametrically opposed to Lelouch. The anime went to great lengths to show thad both of their ways were right and wrong. We saw the failures of what could have succeeded when they were opposed (the SAZ for Suzaku, Lelouch`s Black Rebellion), while when they did ally both were vindicated. Lelouch counquered the world from the outside, while Suzaku saw to it that, from a position of power on the inside, Britania and later the world as Zero were changed from the inside. Both Suzaku and Lelouch changed and held true to their initial character in order to carry out the Zero Reqiem.


On another note, would someone please explain what 'the complete' referred to? Or, if moroboro already did, someone not on my ignore list? (Shouldn't be hard with only three names on it.)

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Yes. Trying to end the fighting, change the natures of everything, and bring peace. Just like Lulu, except he was also trying to avoid repeating his past, which was why his approach was diametrically opposed to Lelouch. The anime went to great lengths to show thad both of their ways were right and wrong. We saw the failures of what could have succeeded when they were opposed (the SAZ for Suzaku, Lelouch`s Black Rebellion), while when they did ally both were vindicated. Lelouch counquered the world from the outside, while Suzaku saw to it that, from a position of power on the inside, Britania and later the world as Zero were changed from the inside. Both Suzaku and Lelouch changed and held true to their initial character in order to carry out the Zero Reqiem.

i'm sorry but no, just no
suzaku suffered the most severe case of character derailment in the anime when the last arc came along
the man went from being idealistic and a believer in right and wrong and that one shouldnt achive a result using the wrong means
to a full on "ends justify the means" type character
he fully accepts the use of human shields, "we have reserves" tactics, mind-rape inslavement, violation of international protocol (using the pretext of a peace offer as a trap),mass murder of anyone who doesnt think like them in britannia, the use of a natural disaster to gain a tactical advatage, and basiclly deception on a GLOBLE scale to make him self seem like a hero, by getting rid of a tyrant HE HELPED PUT IN POWER.
this is CLEARLY taking this shift WAY too far from his character
the suzaku of ep 22 only LOOKS like suzaku
the original suzaku seems to have died along with 25 million other people in the tokyo settelment when the fleija went off

he also loses ALL CONCERN with human life, putting down his fellow KoR without a moments hesitation (sparing only gino, while offering a "we could rule together" type thing), and cares nothing for the soldiers that lelouch sacrifices in order to promote his new goal
and when lelouch shows hesitation about his plan after learing that his little sister is still alive and would be his enemy, suzaku is the one that shakes him down and tells him to suck it up (his following line to C.C doesnt help)
the fact that he is perfectly willing to sit around and WATCH while lelouch turns thousends of people into mindless slaves with his geass is alone a complete derailment of his character (just remember what kept him from raping the dog in ep 15)
even after he suffered a mental breakdown in ep 20 and went after the emperor, he STILL viewed geass as a sinful thing that should be destroyed
and yet in ep 22 he is perfectly willing to use it for the sake of their plan (destroying the lives of countless people in the process)

you can make an argument that LELOUCH had changed A LITTLE (he was always willing to do what ever it took, he just took it to farther extremes)
but suzaku got DERAILED, full on

[Kid Ying]

Blade, my brotha, i disagree with you. I know you don't like the final arc at all, but i think it's not like that. You say Suzaku died with the first fleija, but i think he just learned a lesson after that, that sometimes you've got to use fire to fight fire. There's a saying here that it's like this "what is a scratch to someone who is already beaten up?"(well, it's not like this, but it's kinda ugly to say the actual one, so i'll stay with this one). The fleija showed Suzaku that his hand were already soaked in blood and there's no turning back. It's more like he understood the true horrors of the war and wished to end the chain of hatred, even if he end turning into a monster in the process, which is what happened in the end.

About the KOR, well, those guys wanted to kill Lelouch and Suzaku... There's another way to end this without getting rid of them? Suzaku killed a lot of soldies in the war. It's not like he could spare all of them. He did with Gino cause he was the only one that could really change. If he did that with the other ones, they probably would get back to Schneisel's base, get another KMF and try their luck again. It's like this. And in the war, you can't let skilled people like these running away...

It's not like Suzaku did all that happy and laughing like a mad man. He was sad, but it was needed to end that stupid war. It's just that. Suzaku still is a lovable guy and still wants a better world for everyone to enjoy, it's just that, at moment, he chooses to end the war instead of just fighting in the war.

[bladeofdarkness]

suzaku helps lelouch take over britannia while grudgingly accepting that he has to use geass and other, less then honorable means, in order to do so
lelouch changes britannia from within
lelouch leads britannia to join the UFN
world peace is created.
thats a "learned his lesson" conclusion
THATS a "needing to end the war"

suzaku helps lelouch take over britannia while not caring in the slightest what this intales
helping lelouch take kaguya and the UFN representitives hostage, and basiclly kick start another round of world war 3
because they WANT to do that, rather then just make peace in the first place (ending the war)
thats taking things WAY too far for proper character development
contrast suzaku of ep 18 with suzaku of ep 20 and you can hardly even call them the same person
hence, character derailment

[snowdevil_crow]

Suzaku didn't quite get 'derailed' by the FLEIJA incident. We already saw him go raging lack of care for human life once before, back at the end of Season One. All throughout Season Two, he was on the verge of slipping back into the more impulsive, hot-headed character that he had in his childhood. FLEIJA was simply the final straw that sort of pushed him off the deep end and made him give up everything of his already crumbling moral code and sense of right and wrong.

[bladeofdarkness]

in season 1 ending he was raged and grief driven
suzaku in the final arc of season 2 is anything BUT rage driven
he is cold and calculated and just plain indifferent to human life

[snowdevil_crow]

He always had the potential to completely disregard human life in view of the goal, he just always looked for ways out of it and lied to himself and tried to maintain the moral high ground.

He went batshit in season one because he was rage and grief driven. But by the end of season two, after all the guilt and excuses and everything had just been weighing on him for so long and it still didn't change anything he just sort of snapped. He gave a big 'EFF YOU' to all the morals that he'd been trying to persuade himself that he had and basically decided he no longer cared, he'd do whatever it took to fix things. He always had the potential to do it --- it was shown when he almost drugged Kallen, it was shown when he killed rebels on orders --- he just always held himself back. After FLEIJA, he decided that holding himself accomplished nothing.

[incorrupts]

Suzaku had joined Britannia with the notion to change it "within." While, he had not problem seeing how many Elevens were killed each sec, and how many countries were fucked up from his oh-so-nice-system he decided to suck on. Basically Suzaku, saved one life a day, and was in-directly responsible for 48304930493043 other lives a day. I guess he hit the point at some point and said "oh what the fuck am i doing?"
Something like this.

[bladeofdarkness]

let me get this straight sky
suzaku notices suddenly that everything he had been doing up till then didnt work because he was killing and hurting more people then he was helping
said "oh what the fuck am i doing?
and the conclusion he comes to is that he needs to drop his pretense that he is helping people and just focus more on the killing and hurting part ?
not that maybe he should stop fighting for the empire that made him into a mass murderer ?

seems a little off

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

let me get this straight sky
suzaku notices suddenly that everything he had been doing up till then didnt work because he was killing and hurting more people then he was helping
said "oh what the fuck am i doing?
and the conclusion he comes to is that he needs to drop his pretense that he is helping people and just focus more on the killing and hurting part ?
not that maybe he should stop fighting for the empire that made him into a mass murderer ?

seems a little off

Isn't that what the show showed? Along with this:


Just following the show, one man can get crazy in one night. All it takes, is a moment at times. 8D