Dating

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by yoropa

Ahaha. As hilarious as that is, I think they'd know something was up if I said that, waaaaay out of my character. XD

Though for other guys out there with similar problems, do that.

Just say you've had your share of women but don't like to kiss and tell, like certain others...and put some emphasis on that last one

[Haruka_Kitten]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I could move on quickly, if the sort of person I was looking for wasn't fucking rare as hell.

To be honest, you and I are in the same boat. I don't think I will find a girl or guy that was like my ex. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want said person to be exactly like he was.

[Ascaloth]

Okay, I'm not sure if this is the right thread to pose this question in, but since it's about my girl and all....

Thing is, she's developed something of a sleeping disorder over the past year; she has a habit of going to sleep at around 6 am, and waking up only at about 2 or 3 in the afternoon (usually when she has nothing better to do that day; she surprisingly has no problems waking up in the morning if there's something important to attend to). I've repeatedly encouraged her to, and she's tried sleeping as early as midnight, but more often than not she ends up unable to sleep until 5, and goes back to the same sleeping pattern all over again.

What should I try at this point? I've suggested a sleep therapist, but due to her background, she doesn't trust doctors, so that's going to be a difficult avenue to explore. Only thing I can think of at the moment is to wait for her mother to come to Singapore to attend our Commencement this July, and scold her daughter for her bad sleeping habits. I'm just afraid said mother will think it's my fault she got such habits in the first place. XD

[Wrath88]

Have you tried tiring her out before midnight? No other meaning intended btw.

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Dress nice for the occasion, no ya don't hafta wear a suit (that comes later) but wear your best jeans and a nice shirt.

I'm reminded of the Scrubs episode where the Janitor scared Elliot away by wearing a suit for a casual coffee.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

If she's not charmed by you (as you are naturally, as opposed to a forced act) then the relationship's lasting potential would likely be weak; if you don't really like what you discover then you don't need to run away from her right then and there, but certainly respect your feelings and inclinations. This is about your happiness, too.

I'll support this by saying that all of my attempts to impress my current girlfriend early on by telling lies or stretching the truth ended up backfiring pretty badly. The lies/inflated truths themselves she was unimpressed with anyway, and then to top it off I then had to carry on being consistent for a while before willing up the courage to tell the truth. I had literally put myself in worse standing in her eyes without factually being there. Not counting all the truths she already shaked her head at, I didn't need more.

As it turns out both of us had told small lies to impress each other, and she could understand. And since there was still nothing forced about our personalities it ended up not being damaging, but it' easy to see how it would have been. I didn't intend for to go as far as it did, but being false in how you project yourself even in a small way does always catch up to you, and you don't want to get in a position where you're in a relationship, finally at the stage where the other person likes you a lot, and worrying what she will think once she finds out you lied to her early on.

Just an anecdote, not addressing Kaijo here since he never implied one should force an act, just that they should be a passive version of themselves and reflect the topic back to the other person as often as possible. Which Ledgem already replied to.

[Samari]

I was asked by a member of this forum recently about the events that have unfolded over the past three weeks since I haven't posted here in a while. And since things have happened since my last post...some good and some bad...I decided to again receive opinions from the community on this forum, whether they be positive or negative. One of the main reasons I've decided to share more information again is also because there is something specific I'd like to receive insight about. Something I'm feeling. I was reluctant to mention it previously because I was ashamed, but I sense that I need to let the truth be known sooner or later to someone. But I'll get to that near the end in this post.

I'll start by saying my girlfriend comes back today. I'm going to pick her up in about ten hours from the airport. I've missed her a lot and I'm very happy she's coming back. These last 21 days have been harder to endure than last summer when she was gone for three entire months. I think I may have mentioned that last time. A summer ago, I was living on an desolated island near the city where it was very quiet, and me and my girlfriend weren't living together at the time. Not to mention it had only been a few months since we got together. We were still in the beginning phases in my opinion. Fast forward a year later, we have more experience being together, have gone through some ups and downs, big decisions, and we live together. When she went away for three weeks, I thought things would be pretty straight forward with her being gone. But I was incorrect. Living near the apex of San Francisco's downtown area, I found myself surrounded by constant distractions, couples and groups interacting casually and of course romantically, and I couldn't get away from it if I wanted to. For the first time in a long while...since before I hooked up with my girlfriend...I felt lonely. I don't have an issue being alone...but even I as patient and head strong as I like to believe I am, succumb to the notion of experiencing loneliness, which sometimes is bothersome. I don't want to seem "needy" and or "clingy". I really don't.

The last time I made a post, I mentioned an escapade with a bartender at a local bar two blocks from my house that I decided to explore one night with a friend. After going there quite a few times and getting a little tipsy a few occasions with one other bartender, we ended up kissing...twice. Not passionate, just pecks on the lips...still, the next day I felt the burden and guilt of acting inappropriately. But alas, I've made amends with experience at the bar and crawled out of my infatuation with one of the employees. Last Tuesday I had a harsh reality check after closing hours. And I think that is what set me straight. The details of the situation aren't really that important, but if anyone truly wants to know, I suppose I wouldn't mind elaborating via PM.

When I thought I was truly on the path back to nobility...I was wrong...again. In the past three weeks I've made some friends. I was at Borders one day, the first week my girlfriend was gone I believe. I sat down in the cafe area and started drawing. I forget what I was drawing, but at the same table there were two girls that started talking to me, asking me if I attend AAU, which I replied that I did. Turns out they did as well. Not surprising given the number of students and the nearby AAU buildings in that part of town. Anyways, I met their third friend and we all hit it off really well. I was having a good conversation with one in particular. We'll call her Macy. So me and Macy started talking and eventually ended up on the top floor in Borders looking at some art books. The top floor is usually dead and barely anyone goes up there. But this is where things started to go...bad...as far as my character is concerned. I'll be honest, I was flirting. I found Macy attractive and enticing. I recall looking in her eyes and really putting my game on. She was quite receptive...I think she started blushing as well. My phone was actually ringing at the time we were alone talking. I found out later it was my girlfriend calling from Macau via Skype to see how I was doing. When I found that out...man...I felt...like a true bad guy for the first time in maybe my life. But it gets worse.

I didn't see my new "friends" again until this last week. It was at another cafe and ran into one of the friends I met the first time coincidentally. We were drawing for a bit and she gets a phone call. Turns out it's Macy's birthday that night and she was having a get-together with some friends. This was all last Wednesday. So we go and I see Macy again. Make even some more new friends. And well end up going back to my house and play this funny card game. It was quite entertaining. So, I thought that was the end of that.

Two days later I get a text message from Macy asking how my day was and if I want to hang out later. I told couldn't Friday, but Saturday I could hang out. I text her back the next day and ask if she wants to hang out that night. And we end up hanging out that Saturday night. We meet up at Borders, then I take her to this fancy hotel in Union Square and we ride the elevator where you can see a good amount of the city. I usually take people there if they've never been. Seems like Macy is quite the explorer. We end up going to the 31st floor, sit on the carpet and talk for a while...then we take the stairs all the way down, get lost, and finally get out of the hotel. It was quite fun. Then we're both a little hungry so I decide to take her to this hamburger place by my house that stays open late. This is also another location I take people that have never been...because it's one of my personal favorites, in terms of food that is. So we have a good time. By this time, it's 1am...and we've finished eating. And also by this time...well...to put it mildly, I became the villain. We were talking about watching a movie...perhaps back at my house. Macy thinks about it, but decides it's probably not a good idea because I have a girlfriend (I told them all I had a girlfriend when I first met them). And Macy was right.

Now this is the part where I would probably tell most folks that I walked her home and that was that. But that isn't what happened exactly. We walked home...and by this time we were hitting it off quite well. I could tell she was into me easily. It was the first time I was reminded of my first date with my current girlfriend. There was something majestic about the entire ordeal. So we get closer to her place and once we get to the door entrance...we actually end up talking for another 45 minutes outside...playfully. There were even a couple of moments where I tried to convince her to come and perhaps think about watching the movie. But she held her ground...in the nicest and sweetest way of course. And in retrospect I'm thankful that one of us was doing the right thing that night. In any case, when we finally decided to part ways...we both got quiet and close. I embraced her, and held her by the hips. I looked into her eyes and she looked into mine. She was silent as I was I for a moment or two. I wanted to kiss her. I really did. But whatever spirit I had left, whatever good faith that I thought was still embedded within my heart...decided to take center stage and made me do the right thing. I simply hugged her and told her goodnight. And she did the same. And that was that.

As I type this...I'm realizing the truth that I may have developed feelings for someone else. I'm hoping...I'm really hoping that it's just another infatuation. But this time...it was really strong. It wasn't like that incident at the bar or any of that mantra. This girl Macy...I really enjoyed the time I spent with her Saturday. If things different...I don't know. I thought about texting her today at work...but I didn't. I want to keep her as a friend, and I think we will. I even plan introducing my girlfriend to the new people I've met, and that includes Macy. Like I said, my girlfriend comes back today...and don't get me wrong, I am happy about her return. We've definitely kept in touch and I've told her that I really need her here...she probably doesn't know why that is exactly. I didn't think three weeks alone would be so difficult for me to get by. It's funny, that Saturday night I remember a homeless man passing me telling me I was going to burn in hell or something. I think he was mad because I never give him money anymore (he's around my place a lot), but it struck a cord with me. I'm usually not superstitious or anything of the sort, but...I don't know, it was weird.

This brings me to what I wanted to come clean about. Even before I met Macy, the bar episodes, and such...I remember thinking...about the potential duration with my relationship with my girlfriend. I'll be honest, a part of me has thought about the commitment factor. A part of me isn't sure if one girl potentially for the rest of my life is going to be okay. A part of me really wants to explore. Now...I know that makes me look like a real bad person. But if there was a person that may be the "one", I think my girlfriend really fits the bill. I'm not sure how long we'll be together, but these last 21 days...hmmm...I think it's made me also realize that I need to somehow fix my attitude about my romantic life and be more thoughtful about the people around me. I hope the recent events don't tarnish what I've established with my girlfriend...and things go back to the way they were.

Your thoughts and opinions please. Doesn't matter if it's malicious or not. Proceed.

EDIT: It's 3:30am here about. Was about to go to sleep. Discovered a text message from Macy at around 12am. I didn't get it since I was at the gym. Let's see what it says...hmmm...oh, just asked if I was asleep yet...and what day is father's day (she's an international student from China). Heh...my goodness...anyways, good night people.

[Khu]

*shrug*

You have a big life in front of you (or us, rather, seeing I'm younger XD), y'know. I don't blame you for thinkin like that, but I suggest you come clean with your girlfriend and talk it over first. Let her know what you've been thinking, and make sure it's clear and precise. No communication at all will worry her more than semi-positive communication; that you're not sure how to proceed is better than not talking to her at all and leaving her in the lurch.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by yoropa

Advice on making my idiot "friends" shut up about my relationship status (still single)?

My god, where do you guys always get friends like that? Alright, some teasing around is always normal, specially during the more shallow school days, but damn.

First of all, I need to praise you, because you are way more mature than your "experienced" friends. While I don't think it's just shallow to ask a girl out on the spot or ask for a number, you are better off being yourself and doing things at your pace. Anything else just doesn't end well.

To shut them up for good isn't easy, though. In their mind set they are the winners of evolution and them maturing won't happen over night. Try to make them understand that you don't just want anybody, and when they start with the mean remarks again, get back at them. Either try the 'I stand above that' approach or pay them back with the same spite and childish demeanor, whatever suits you better. From my point of view getting back at them just as childish is justified and might make them realize how stupid they are acting.
Sorry, I can help you more with that.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Thing is, she's developed something of a sleeping disorder over the past year; she has a habit of going to sleep at around 6 am, and waking up only at about 2 or 3 in the afternoon (usually when she has nothing better to do that day; she surprisingly has no problems waking up in the morning if there's something important to attend to). I've repeatedly encouraged her to, and she's tried sleeping as early as midnight, but more often than not she ends up unable to sleep until 5, and goes back to the same sleeping pattern all over again.

Uh something I can relate to! I sometimes have the same problem, when my schedule is irregular or I'm all free. What helps me to get into bed at a good hour are a few things:

1. Set an hour to get ready to bed to, like 10 pm
2. Have a set time you lay down to sleep, so you have time to read a bit or something similar to relax and are already in bed, like 11 pm
3. A nice sleeping (or normal one) tea adds to the ritual and helps to get inner rest
4. GET TIRED OUT during the day - best thing is to do some sport, that helps me personally the most to get a good sleep or you can help her with some .. exercises when you're staying over That helps, too
5. She has to turn off and put away anything she spends her time with during the night prior to getting ready. Trying to get sleepy while you play a game won't help the sleeping habits.
6. She needs to get up at a set time, too, even on free days, so she doesn't fall back to the bad sleeping habits again.

Having a routine before going to bed and sticking to the times you set helps a great deal. Also to shut away all distractions is very important. You can help her with that - you can make sure she sticks to the plan and scold her if she does otherwise. It's working if you do that for a while. At least it helped me to get out of my spring break lethargy XD

Edit:
@Samari, telling your girlfriend you felt weird while she was away, is fine, but telling her about everything is a very bad idea imo. She will know something is wrong and will ask. When it comes down to it, it's for you to decide what you tell her and what you omitt.
Don't get me wrong, honesty is very important, but some things just do more damage than good. Specially, if you end up being just fine and stay with your girlfriend.
As I recall, this relationship was the first really serious and long term for you, right? So getting the frills if it's really right and if you don't need to go wild for a while in your life is normal. This is something you should ask her about - if she ever has the same feelings or fears. You should observe how your feeling are now when your girlfriend has returned and if the temptation still feels so big and dangerous. A decision can't be made on the spot. I'll just tell you that your point of view might be totally different in a week or two.

Of course it could be, you notice that you have a problem with a serious commitment this early in your life after all, but always keep in mind what you might give up. It may seem stupid coming from me, since were the same age, but it's not the missed flirts and flings we look back at with regret, but the could-have-beens when we look back at our meaningful relationships and the people we truly loved, but still parted ways with. Take your time thinking about what you want and ask her what she wants and how she sees your relationship.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Samari

This brings me to what I wanted to come clean about. Even before I met Macy, the bar episodes, and such...I remember thinking...about the potential duration with my relationship with my girlfriend. I'll be honest, a part of me has thought about the commitment factor. A part of me isn't sure if one girl potentially for the rest of my life is going to be okay. A part of me really wants to explore. Now...I know that makes me look like a real bad person. But if there was a person that may be the "one", I think my girlfriend really fits the bill. I'm not sure how long we'll be together, but these last 21 days...hmmm...I think it's made me also realize that I need to somehow fix my attitude about my romantic life and be more thoughtful about the people around me. I hope the recent events don't tarnish what I've established with my girlfriend...and things go back to the way they were.

Really, I'm curious as to why the urge to "explore" is seen as such a bad thing...

In any case, you're beating yourself up about this quite a bit it seems, but I don't really think that what you're feeling is wrong. It's natural at times to think about whether or not your relationship is the type that will last a lifetime and if the person you're with is really "the one", or if you're just settling for someone who meets all of the requirements.

As for wanting things to go back to the way they were, I'm just going to repeat to you what I said in my initial post about your situation: you really need to talk to your girlfriend about this. You feel guilty and confused, and you're attracted to another girl, regardless of if it's infatuation or something genuine. Certainly, if you think it's nothing, you can just swallow it and keep it to yourself, but honestly, I'd come clean to her about it; it would clear your mind, and if she listens to you and her first reaction isn't to break up with you, perhaps she could help you with some of the questions you're asking yourself.

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by Samari

Your thoughts and opinions please. Doesn't matter if it's malicious or not. Proceed.

Well...

My opinion might be unwelcome, but 1, I'd talk to your gf, first impress upon her how much you missed her and you're glad she's back, let her get settled in first (ffs don't just WHAM welcome back gush on her). She has a right to know, and this might warrant some more discussion.

You may be poly. It rather depends on if this was an attraction thing cause your gf was out of town, or if you actually bonded w/ these other people (the bar girl not so much but this Macy might have been an actual bond). There is nothign wrong with being poly, it does not mean you are a slut/manwhore, or anything like that. It's just a different way of being wired, so to speak, and there are plenty of happy poly couples who've been together for ages.

You may have just been lonely. Happens to everyone; your mate is gone and your heart/body go "man, it's lonely, wtf... oh hai there". Nothing horribly wrong there either, you're human, it happens. YOu didn't fall into bed with either of these ladies, and provided you don't try to hide it from your gf, then IMO you've taken the high road.

Realize that in telling her, you may set your relationship back a bit. It depends on how jealous she gets/offended/insecure. She's entitled; especially in the "newlywed" phase (which IMO lasts for a couple of years), there's usually a lot of insecurity going around. Maybe on your part too (your gf was gone and you needed/wanted to feel attractive/wanted by SOMEONE). If she's not the jealous type, then continue discussing as time/comfort levels permits (again, the whole might be poly thing, but that's AFTER you figure out, maybe w/ her help, whether it was just lust/flirting or what). If she immediately reacts negatively, apologize again, admit you made a mistake (if you feel you have, and your feelings of guilt lean to that), and let her know you're there to discuss this when she's ready, and that your relationship w/ her is worth waiting for, till SHE is ready to discuss.

Don't force the discussion on her, women tend to react very.. not violently, but emotionally, to the thought of their mate being w/ another woman, even if they didn't roll in the sack together. She may need time to breathe, go "OK, here's what he said happened, here's what I'm assuming happened, wait, let me ask him again" or whatever she needs to do. Heck, she might want to meet Macy, to size up the competition (j/k that's probably NOT going to be the case unless you guys explore the wonderful world pf poly lol otherwise you're asking for a catfight, I bet).

Long story short, I cannot stress communication enough. Yeah, you know what? letting her know what happened might kill your relationship. But that's just something you'll have to deal with, and something you ought have considered prior to kissing girls other than the one you're dating

Disclaimer: this is all my opinion, I live a different lifestyle, and try to throw in alternate viewpoints. I'm not trying to sound harsh or judgmental.

[Ascaloth]

@Samari,

Oh, wow. Okay. Hope the local convenience store sells ice for dirt cheap, pal, 'cause it's high time you gave your little willie a good cold soak.

Okay, ribbing aside, let's get serious (although taking my last line seriously probably isn't such a bad idea either ). If you're freaked out enough by your behaviour that you're pouring it all out over the Net, chances are your girlfriend will pick up on the fact that something's not kosher with you when she gets back.

Run with that scenario in mind, and prepare accordingly; you probably shouldn't volunteer information of your deeds immediately once she gets back, but once she asks you if anything happened (and trust me, she will), be ready to come clean about everything, preferably after you've already sat her down and all comfy. Affirm that she's your no. 1, take all the blame to yourself, beg her to help you get through this, talk through it, you know, the usual.

Frankly, I've yet to experience this situation, so I can't offer you much more than that; going by Old Dame cheyannew's () playbook probably is the best approach. Do remember though; whatever you can imagine will happen after you come clean with her, is probably still preferable to keeping her in the dark, and letting her fretting becoming a fatal poison in your relationship with her. Keep that in mind, and it should be slightly easier for you to do so.

Originally Posted by zebra

Uh something I can relate to! I sometimes have the same problem, when my schedule is irregular or I'm all free. What helps me to get into bed at a good hour are a few things:

1. Set an hour to get ready to bed to, like 10 pm
2. Have a set time you lay down to sleep, so you have time to read a bit or something similar to relax and are already in bed, like 11 pm
3. A nice sleeping (or normal one) tea adds to the ritual and helps to get inner rest
4. GET TIRED OUT during the day - best thing is to do some sport, that helps me personally the most to get a good sleep or you can help her with some .. exercises when you're staying over That helps, too
5. She has to turn off and put away anything she spends her time with during the night prior to getting ready. Trying to get sleepy while you play a game won't help the sleeping habits.
6. She needs to get up at a set time, too, even on free days, so she doesn't fall back to the bad sleeping habits again.

Having a routine before going to bed and sticking to the times you set helps a great deal. Also to shut away all distractions is very important. You can help her with that - you can make sure she sticks to the plan and scold her if she does otherwise. It's working if you do that for a while. At least it helped me to get out of my spring break lethargy XD

1. Tried, didn't work. She's....a surprisingly stubborn lass when it comes to her online activities.
2. Not a good idea. Funny thing about her is, she has a scary level of concentration; if she starts reading before bed, the night will be mostly over before she realizes she's tired. I probably should have seen this coming when I chose to hook up with a mathemathical and musical prodigy.
3. Probably something worth trying. Time to get some of that Earl Grey, and introduce her to it....
4. Oh, I have. And it does work....until about 3 or so, and then she's up and about again. (And no, I'm not saying how exactly I helped her with that. )
5. Urgh. I probably actually need to scold her about that sometimes, but I have my doubts about whether I'm qualified to do that in the first place.
6. If only you knew the lengths I go to to have her get up whenever she sleeps over. She's very ticklish, and very cranky in the mornings....

Thanks for the tips anyway. I'll keep working on them.

[Ricky Controversy]

@Samari: You're stressing out a lot over this. I think it's essential that you lay it all out there with your girlfriend, as this is information that pertains quite clearly to your relationship with her. She deserves to know how these situations affect you so that she can make some choices. Whether it is right or wrong, she may decide that she doesn't want to be with someone that would act that way in her absence. Or, perhaps she'll reveal that she was similarly distressed while she was away and wants to do what she can to avoid having to part ways for so long going forward. You've already been honest--at least with this 'Macy' girl--about having a girlfriend, so you certainly have it in you to tell your girlfriend about this. Like Ascaloth said, emphasize how much you missed her and how much this upsets you, since both factors are true and relevant.


@Ascaloth: I am pretty notorious amongst friends and family for a wonky, ever-shifting sleep schedule, so I have a wealth of experience on this to offer! There are a variety of strategies for correcting or setting one's sleep pattern.

First thing I'd suggest is that your girlfriend could try a biphasic or polyphasic (no, Chey, not like that) sleeping pattern. For people who have difficulty with the socially enforced 'single block' method of sleep, these alternatives can be just the ticket to reasserting one's control over their sleep patterns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_sleep

Keep in mind that there WILL be some discomfort during the initial adjustment phase, but I and many others who have experimented with these sleep patterns have found that not only can you get a firm grip on exactly when you sleep with these patterns, but you also get more rest with less time spent sleeping. It's a win-win!

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

By bringing up plans and chances of success you're already approaching it the wrong way (in my opinion). We're not insects trying to successfully mate and produce offspring. We're humans who are trying to find "the one."

Heh, funny you should say that. When you break it down to the evolutionary biological scale, our mating dance is no different than that of other animals. But it is unromantic to think of our "higher" actions as a mere animalistic ritual.

Most people can do background research on a person, observe them, and play to them such that the other person will be delighted, but you don't want to be playing the act for the rest of your life. It's not sustainable.

Now where did I say anything like this? Actually, in some of my past posts, I actually talked about how to push emotional buttons, but I also said it was something I couldn't do because I would be putting on an act, and I didn't want to do that. But putting on an act is far different from a general guideline of "subtly get her to talk about herself." If you you like her, wanting to get to know her should be second nature anyway.

I spoke up just because I remember being new to dating, and looking for "formulas" on how to do it. You know, things like the three-day callback rule, the two-month time limit between meeting a girl and making a move - all that garbage. If I'd read what you'd written, I'd have likely taken it to an extreme, believing it to be sound advice for a path to winning a girl's heart. Keep her talking about herself and she'll fall in love with you. That's how I interpreted it.

But I never said to take it to an extreme. It's just a variant on "getting to know her" that also has a 95% chance of making her like you more. It's a great trick, not just for dating, but for any new person you like. When you network among the job scene, it's a great way to make people think well of you. It's a standard component of human behavior, and while there are exceptions, I think you'll find the rule is in play more often than you realize.

And just to clarify, no, don't force it, especially if she shows interest in hearing your own opinion (and don't hold back too much offering yours). But it's a nice trick for making sure there aren't many awkward silences, too.

Look, you don't have to take my word for it. Google "People love to talk about themselves" and you'll run across tons of webpages on the subject. Perhaps it's something we don't like to admit, that each one of us likes to talk about ourselves. Perhaps that's what makes it so hard to accept.

But who knows - maybe I was just terribly foolish and lacked a sense that everyone else has. Oh well. I'm happily married now, so to anyone who is a fool like I was/am, don't give up - there's hope for all of us.

Haha, trying to imply something? Because I get the message "Well, I'm married and you're not, therefore my advice is better than yours." From what I know of you, I wouldn't think you'd take this route. People can be single for more reasons than just because they are following bad advice or something. Some choose to be single, and some, like me, have really raised their standards such that there probably aren't people who can meet them. I could go out and play the dating game and line up a string of women starting tomorrow(done it before), but it's not worth it to me. I have no desire to play games right now.


@Samari: This happens to everyone, and there's no real advice that we can give you. You are the only one who can evaluate your feelings for who you want. I will say that "Macy" is new, and new things are always more exciting. And it does take strong character to resist the urge to explore something new, and remain faithful.

Many people I've known, can get tired of the familiar, and toss them aside for something new. From my experience, the new thing usually doesn't work out, and then what are you left with? Do you really want to be a person who tosses people aside, and then find yourself at the end of a road, a bunch of burned bridges behind you?

Last note: You are witnessing something interesting in action: a guy with a girl, is more attractive to other girls. Once you have someone, the others seemingly start coming out of the woodwork. It's something you'll have to get used to. That's why this girl is into you. But if you leave your gf for her, somewhere in the back of her mind, she'll think the same thing can happen to you. There will be a small part of her that realizes you can be unfaithful. I don't think you want that.

[Samari]

Thanks people for your insight.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, funny you should say that. When you break it down to the evolutionary biological scale, our mating dance is no different than that of other animals. But it is unromantic to think of our "higher" actions as a mere animalistic ritual.

It's less that it's 'unromantic' and more that it's unscientific to assert that. Every species that socially bonds has its own set of priorities involved in the bonds they form. Certainly, reproduction enters into the 'mating' priority list for most people, and this is common throughout the animal kingdom. That being said, you simply will not find the diversity of other priorities that humans have in their selection amongst any other species. Because of this variety, and the fact that many humans are not psychologically transparent or simple, it makes trying to boil romance down to a science a bit futile.

If you you like her, wanting to get to know her should be second nature anyway.

Absolutely agree with this, but if you're advocating subtlety and sensitivity as you seem to be, it's worth noting that some people prefer to let their actions and demeanor speak for themselves, and focus discussion on neither individual, but on outside concepts.

But it's a nice trick for making sure there aren't many awkward silences, too.

If you're consciously trying to fill or prevent silences with a person, that should be a red flag, frankly.

Perhaps it's something we don't like to admit, that each one of us likes to talk about ourselves. Perhaps that's what makes it so hard to accept.

It strikes me as Ledgem objecting not to the notion of this tendency but to the generalization that everyone likes to talk about themselves that seemed to be coming through in your post--though you have clarified that you acknowledge the exceptions.

Some choose to be single, and some, like me, have really raised their standards such that there probably aren't people who can meet them. I could go out and play the dating game and line up a string of women starting tomorrow(done it before), but it's not worth it to me. I have no desire to play games right now.

There are two possibilities here: the first is that you have in fact set a standard so high that no one exists who can meet it. If this is true, then you're incredibly arrogant for setting that as your mark. The second possibility is that you're being very pessimistic because you've had a few experiences that didn't go your way. If that is the case, then you're defeating yourself outright. The first step to finding a suitable partner is the step that takes place in your head, getting yourself into the proper mindset of openness.

Either way, please, stop plugging yourself with comments about how logical you fancy yourself to be, or how capable you are of charming women when you want to, or how high your standards are. I understand you want to qualify your advice, but why not let it stand on its own legs?

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Samari

Your thoughts and opinions please. Doesn't matter if it's malicious or not. Proceed.

Nothing malicious to be said, but I'll just expand again on the post that I originally made when you brought up the issue. This is precisely why it's important to limit your contact with people you feel attracted to. It's almost like the way that an alcoholic needs to make an effort to completely avoid alcohol - you may think you have your values and your control, but it's like a whirlpool. Start going near it at all, and it'll just suck you in with increasing force.

Your guilt is understandable and while you shouldn't beat yourself up over it, you should feel guilty. Would you be totally happy with the idea of your girlfriend/wife doing with other men what you've done with other women? Some people would, but if you wouldn't then you have transgressed against your own values and your "other half." Perhaps more importantly, do you think that your girlfriend would be hurt by what you've done? If she would, then you've done something very wrong - you disrespected her. It's not even a matter of self-control; you knew that you had an attraction to other women (which isn't unusual) and yet you repeatedly put yourself in positions where that attraction would have the opportunity to grow and present a problem.

What are the consequences for long-term commitment? It could mean anything. It could mean that at this moment in your life you're not ready to fully commit. It could mean that your current girlfriend isn't "the one." It could mean that the advice I've gathered from other men is something that you, like me, will need to take to heart and be cautious about.

I had very similar feelings as you did. About a year into dating my wife (then-girlfriend) I had very strong thoughts about breaking up with her. It wasn't that anything was wrong, but other girls were mighty attractive. There's a theory that you may be familiar with, which states that once you start dating a girl, swarms of girls will descend upon you (and once you're single, they won't express interest). The theory implies that girls are attracted to and want to steal guys who are already in a relationship. I think there's more to it - when you're dating someone, your confidence is sky-high. Your confidence alone is an attractive factor to women, but you also become bolder about making moves on other women.

You have a lot to consider. What you want out of your current relationship; if you're happy with how things are going. Heed this advice, though: you'll never find one girl that will make you blind to other women. I don't think you need to necessarily be thinking about committing for life at this point, but don't fall into that line of thinking (if you were about to).

I don't know that you need to mention this to your girlfriend, either. If I did what you did and my wife found out, my relationship would have some huge cracks in it and it would likely never be the same. The mere thought of how she'd feel upon finding out makes my heart sink (and hence I say again, be frikkin' vigilant about who you're associating with!). I don't advocate hiding things from your significant other, but this is something that you're sorting through on your own, and you're trying to figure out what's important to you. That's self-discovery. You don't want to crush the relationship that you have going during this critical period of your development.

I'll also add that I don't think that ending your relationship with your current girlfriend and getting with Macy would bode well, either. I may be overthinking it, but any woman who knows that you acted the way that you did when you had a girlfriend, and knows that you ended one relationship and quickly got into another with them, would likely feel insecure with you to start with (if they thought about it, perhaps). If you do decide that you want to end things with your current girlfriend, force yourself to take a few months before you get back into another relationship.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, funny you should say that. When you break it down to the evolutionary biological scale, our mating dance is no different than that of other animals. But it is unromantic to think of our "higher" actions as a mere animalistic ritual.

I'll let you in on a pet peeve of mine: I scowl whenever someone tries to mention evolution in an argument. Most people have an overly basic sense of what evolution is and how it functions, yet they apply it to many things. Applied evolution is not as simple as it seems.

So no surprise here: I disagree. But rather than derail this thread over the "evolution" of romance, I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Now where did I say anything like this? Actually, in some of my past posts, I actually talked about how to push emotional buttons, but I also said it was something I couldn't do because I would be putting on an act, and I didn't want to do that. But putting on an act is far different from a general guideline of "subtly get her to talk about herself." If you you like her, wanting to get to know her should be second nature anyway.

When I write a post, I don't stick strictly to what was said. Some of my own thoughts that are built off of ideas mentioned come out, along with responses to those thoughts. Occasionally I take what was said and try to extend its apparent reasoning. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But I never said to take it to an extreme.

I never said that you said to take it to an extreme. I was stating that someone might read what you wrote as the absolute truth and take it to an extreme themselves. At the very least, I might have, if I'd read what you wrote when I was in my teens. And the whole reason I mentioned that was to show that I wasn't responding to you in order to totally trash your idea, but because I was concerned that someone might take it to an extreme - much to their own detriment.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Look, you don't have to take my word for it. Google "People love to talk about themselves" and you'll run across tons of webpages on the subject. Perhaps it's something we don't like to admit, that each one of us likes to talk about ourselves. Perhaps that's what makes it so hard to accept.

I never disagreed with this. What I disagreed with was the idea that you should glorify that concept. You're seizing on that particular aspect and trying to play it up as a means of getting someone to like you more. Again, it is my opinion that such an approach is a fundamentally flawed way of viewing a relationship. You don't want to be going with tricks and tactics to get someone to like you. You learn about them, they learn about you, and you get a feel for each other that way. If someone is a narcissist who incessantly talks about himslf, then yes, the social etiquette of "let the other person speak" and "show interest in them" is a very good and important reminder. Otherwise, those sorts of things more or less come naturally.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Haha, trying to imply something? Because I get the message "Well, I'm married and you're not, therefore my advice is better than yours." From what I know of you, I wouldn't think you'd take this route. People can be single for more reasons than just because they are following bad advice or something. Some choose to be single, and some, like me, have really raised their standards such that there probably aren't people who can meet them. I could go out and play the dating game and line up a string of women starting tomorrow(done it before), but it's not worth it to me. I have no desire to play games right now.

It was partly playful, and partly an implication.

I think that you and I are similar in that we write in a rather authoritative manner. What bugs me is that you do not concede a single point in the discussion. Rather, you've been trying to say that I'm claiming things that you didn't write, or that what you wrote is still somehow true. I've been gentle in my approach, claiming that what you've said isn't wrong and is likely spot-on with some people, and that I feel it's not the optimal way to go about things. I believe it, too - there are no absolutes.

Yet I can see that we can go on forever (which is partly why I had tried to promise myself that I wouldn't reply to you unless it was in agreement). Is it stubborness on your end? Is it that you're so good with reasoning that you can reason to yourself that you're correct no matter what is said? I don't know, and I suppose that in the context that we know each other and interact, it doesn't really matter.

So I brought it up to play on myself, and in an effort to try a new way of getting you to concede something. No matter what I've done - be it analogies, examples, philosophy, or reasoning, you have seemingly never come to agree even slightly. But I see that you excel in reasoning to yourself, and you're now reasoning about your own situation. No matter what I say or how I try to approach it, you seemingly won't accept what I say. The discussion between us is pointless. At this point my replies have been less in an effort to convince you, and more in an effort to convince anyone else reading this that your advice should not be the primary rules that they follow. It's nothing personal, I just disagree with your views and thoughts.

Here's another attempt at making a promise that I won't reply directly to anything you say unless it's in agreement, I suppose.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Samari

Thanks people for your insight.

No problem; good luck with your situation. I hope it all goes well for you.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

It's less that it's 'unromantic' and more that it's unscientific to assert that. Every species that socially bonds has its own set of priorities involved in the bonds they form. Certainly, reproduction enters into the 'mating' priority list for most people, and this is common throughout the animal kingdom. That being said, you simply will not find the diversity of other priorities that humans have in their selection amongst any other species. Because of this variety, and the fact that many humans are not psychologically transparent or simple, it makes trying to boil romance down to a science a bit futile.

It's very scientific. True, humans have evolved other factors that lead to attraction, but there is a lot of biology going on. Take body type: the female hourglass that's generally attractive to most westerners (see models, actresses, etc.), is evolved from our ability to recognize when a mate has a body type suitable to healthy childbirth. In other cultures, such as desert nomads, a plumper woman is more attractive, as they generally have a better ability to survive. It's not quite that simple, but it is a small, simple, scientific discovery that was made after several studies.

If you're consciously trying to fill or prevent silences with a person, that should be a red flag, frankly.

Why? Are you saying that people who have awkward silences are doomed, and can't make a relationship? I'd lay healthy odds that it happens with a lot of people, probably most. Learning to fill awkward silences is a subset of learning to sociable. True, you don't *have* to, but there ways to if you want to.

It strikes me as Ledgem objecting not to the notion of this tendency but to the generalization that everyone likes to talk about themselves that seemed to be coming through in your post--though you have clarified that you acknowledge the exceptions.

Because I'm a scientist, and that's the way we speak. When we state something, it's because we are coming from previous research that has shown things "generally" operate that way, which implies there are exceptions. I pretty much thought it was understood, but I can be more verbose next time and attach the disclaimer to more statements.

There are two possibilities here: the first is that you have in fact set a standard so high that no one exists who can meet it. If this is true, then you're incredibly arrogant for setting that as your mark.

Why arrogant? Is there something wrong with what I want in a companion? I've basically acknowledged to myself I want a certain type of woman. If she comes along great, but it's not a big deal if she doesn't. Everyone has standards for a reason; they don't want to get involved with someone who will drag them down. Your standards are your own, just as mine belong to me. I won't comment as to whether yours or correct or not, because everyone is slightly different.

Either way, please, stop plugging yourself with comments about how logical you fancy yourself to be, or how capable you are of charming women when you want to, or how high your standards are. I understand you want to qualify your advice, but why not let it stand on its own legs?

How about you stop immediately assuming anything I say HAS to be false? How about you actually provide evidence to counter if you feel I make an incorrect statement? I do use myself as an example from time to time, but that's because I know myself. And as a scientist, my opinions do not come out of thin air, nor do they change as easily as the wind, based on what one or two other people said. A scientist only changes their mind when there is proper evidence to indicate a more correct model that explains the data.

Until then, I will do the same as you do: offer advice and opinions. People can choose to listen or not, believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I'll let you in on a pet peeve of mine: I scowl whenever someone tries to mention evolution in an argument. Most people have an overly basic sense of what evolution is and how it functions, yet they apply it to many things. Applied evolution is not as simple as it seems.

So no surprise here: I disagree. But rather than derail this thread over the "evolution" of romance, I'll leave it at that.

If you don't wish to discuss it, that's fine. But yes, evolution is a rather large subject, and plays a large part in what genes get passed onto the next generation. It does play a fairly large part in human mating rituals.

I never said that you said to take it to an extreme. I was stating that someone might read what you wrote as the absolute truth and take it to an extreme themselves.

I certainly can't help if someone decides to read something in my statements that isn't there. I can try to clarify if asked, but I think you'll agree that you wouldn't like people assuming you said or meant something, when you didn't. And what you said can apply to everyone, not just me.

I never disagreed with this. What I disagreed with was the idea that you should glorify that concept.

The only reason there is any "glorifying" going on is because we're discussing. When I initially offered it as advice, it was just that: simple advice. Like if I had said "Make sure you shower or bathe before your date." Would you have had such an issue with that simple "trick"?

It's just one little thing that can help, among many. Why make such an issue out of it?

I think that you and I are similar in that we write in a rather authoritative manner. What bugs me is that you do not concede a single point in the discussion.

Because someone doesn't immediately change their mind on something based on what one person has said, means they are somehow a "bad" person, which you are implicating here? I've conceded points before, but as I said to Ricky above, I am a scientist. There are very stringent criteria that a scientist follows with regards to whether they change or concede something.

Is it stubborness on your end? Is it that you're so good with reasoning that you can reason to yourself that you're correct no matter what is said? I don't know, and I suppose that in the context that we know each other and interact, it doesn't really matter.

I have mentioned before that I am different than most people, and no one has really understood me or where I am coming from, except some other nerds. If you want to start to get a good idea, read slashdot, where other nerds hang out. You get quite a lesson in reasoning, seeing so many scientist nerd-types using well-reasoned arguments, with evidence to back it up.

So I brought it up to play on myself, and in an effort to try a new way of getting you to concede something.

Why? Is it so important to you, that you've switched your focus from trying to understand the other side in a debate, to just trying to prove me wrong at something, anything? I find that illogical. Right now, it seems to me that you dislike what I say, and that's fine. But you seem to actively be pursuing a "Don't listen to him, because he's bad!" path, with no evidence that proves why. That's a pet peeve of mine. I find that illogical, and I'm not going to go "Oh, okay, because you say so, I'll admit that the sky is green." I would state that if you have a problem with me, or things I say, to switch them to another venue such as PMs or IMs, so as to not clutter the thread with them.

For me, I'll leave you with another favorite quote of mine: "I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - it's a paraphrase of a statement attributed to Voltaire, but it was S. G. Tallentyr who actually said when he was summing up Voltaire's attitude.

But all I'm getting right now, is that you're trying to tell me, "getting your date to talk about herself is wrong" without any real reason as to why, except a very general "tricks are bad!" explanation.

Edit to add:

I believe it, too - there are no absolutes.

Fun little mental exercise for you: Is that statement absolute?

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because I'm a scientist, and that's the way we speak. When we state something, it's because we are coming from previous research that has shown things "generally" operate that way, which implies there are exceptions. I pretty much thought it was understood, but I can be more verbose next time and attach the disclaimer to more statements.

How about you stop immediately assuming anything I say HAS to be false? How about you actually provide evidence to counter if you feel I make an incorrect statement? I do use myself as an example from time to time, but that's because I know myself. And as a scientist, my opinions do not come out of thin air, nor do they change as easily as the wind, based on what one or two other people said. A scientist only changes their mind when there is proper evidence to indicate a more correct model that explains the data.

Until then, I will do the same as you do: offer advice and opinions. People can choose to listen or not, believe it or not.

Ai yai yai, I really really need to find that post of mine in here that I must have written back in 2008.
It was a jibe at ledgem back in the day when we were mortal enemies when I "mildly" slammed down the idea of dating scientists and wrote a funny anecdote about why it'd drive me crazy, cause Ledgem was being all scientist-like.
However, I believe we have a new king to crown

Kaijo's just making me remember in Kodak clarity why that is. I've no time to find my post, but if i can, I will backtrack someday.
Dude, allow for a lil spontaneity in your life and fun. To try to calculate everything in life will only drive you to madness as life is unpredictable and humans bring in unforeseen factors.
Adapt with what you have and who you meet as best as you can.
As for the rest of us, humans are different and communicate (post) in different ways. Now we know that Kaijo is likely to have a formulaic statement in his posts when analysing and giving advice, so let it be.

Now back to dating, not another Kaijo vs the world debate

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

... but as I said to Ricky above, I am a scientist. There are very stringent criteria that a scientist follows with regards to whether they change or concede something.

Oh? I didn't know you were a scientist. I'm a graduate student doing basic research in immunology. Before this I did basic research in cancer. Before that I did applied research in animal physiology. From a biologist's perspective, your views on what a scientist should and shouldn't do is a bit strange. If you don't mind my asking, what's your field?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I have mentioned before that I am different than most people, and no one has really understood me or where I am coming from, except some other nerds. If you want to start to get a good idea, read slashdot, where other nerds hang out. You get quite a lesson in reasoning, seeing so many scientist nerd-types using well-reasoned arguments, with evidence to back it up.

I read Slashdot regularly. Check for user "Ledgem" and see how old my account is over there. It should be almost as old as the one over here. I read scientific papers for my research regularly. I do research regularly. I am not like most other people in my hobbies or interests, but ask anyone if I've ever said that to them.

You seem to think you're so different from everyone else, to the point that you come off as completely ignoring the possibility that someone else could be similar to you and understand you.