[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

He's been jealous of Battler since he was young.

He revealed in Episode 6 that he hated women before he found love through Shannon. And Battler left him alone with 3 women for 6 years. He could be completely bitter towards him because of that. [30]

As shown above he has certain occult beliefs or at least a basic understanding of them that's enough to manipulate certain people and has a certain ability to direct groups.

Now THIS is a theory. 8)

Just to expand a bit on what you said there, I remember George saying that he was jealous of Battler because he could so easily speak to Shannon and Jessica.

And maybe that's why he dabbled in magic; to give him success with the opposite sex. And that's why it's proper for the fanartists to draw him like a perverted otaku-ish onii-chan who goes around naked all the time.

Originally Posted by Judoh

So these are my 30 pieces of evidence suggesting the George is the culprit

Maybe his full name is Ushiromiya Jyuudasu Jyoji. 8) EDIT: Apparently it's just 'Yuda' in Japanese. (ユダ)

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Or maybe Ryuukishi will be clever and shorten the name down.
After all, Van Dine.

I think you guys may have called it exactly...
"He can tell present, past and future, discover witches and hidden things, create storms and make the water rough by means of them, bring down walls and build towers."

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Wow Judoh... wow. Even if someone doesn't agree with you on George being the culprit, anyone's got to give you credit for all this work, marking your evidence and organizing it very well.
It's also excellent support for the George Culprit Theory. I love it.

Yeah it took me two days to finish it. I was worried that way I presented might be a bit blaring, but it's not?

Thanks by the way.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Yeah it took me two days to finish it. I was worried that way I presented might be a bit blaring, but it's not?

Thanks by the way.

It is a bit, but that's not bad... unless what seems to be the most popular culprit theory in the fanbase is wrong.
If by some stretch of cruel logic, Ryuukishi ends up writing someone completely unexpected as the culprit, then the blaring evidence you presented is only proof you fell for a cleverly designed troll he made.
However, if you are correct, which most people agree with, then the fact that you could provide evidence for your claims like you did is proof the information was right there, out in the open, and that people who couldn't see it were just looking the wrong way.
So since I'm confident the George Culprit Theory is correct, I find the blaring presentation good.

[Renall]

About the only people left as dark horse culprit candidates at this point are Hideyoshi and Gohda, which is why I proposed the "Hideyoshi and Gohda are secret lovers committed to murdering those who would not understand their love" theory.

Very non-seriously.

Or... did I?

[DgBarca]

Can someone translate the last entry please ? It might not be very...relevant...but still...

[Judoh]

I'm not looking for the Dark horse I'm looking for the Pale horse

[Phasoms]

I think I may have some ideas to add into the mix. I've been lurking on these forums for a long time now, but never felt I had anything too compelling to contribute -- at least, nothing that hadn't already been theorized or thrown about.

In general, there seems to be a strong divide in what people believe to be the 'solution' or 'truth' behind Umineko. There are those that believe Shkanon to be the most fitting solution, and those that find it to be quite illogical and unreasonable, or even lazy or too obvious of Ryukishi. I was somewhere in the middle of those two factions for a long time. After reading Episode 6 I felt more inclined to believe the Shkanon explanation of things, but here's where I became stuck in my thinking.

If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, then some bizarre and illogical inconsistencies arise in the story. I went back and tried to explain each game with a single Sayo acting and fooling everyone that she was two different servants. It just doesn’t fit. Nearly all of these inconsistencies have been debated over here, so I’ll assume everyone is fairly familiar with the failings of the Shkanon theory. My problem is that, thematically, it fits quite well, and there are a large number of hints provided throughout the story to support it. I cannot find any other culprit theory that seems to fit the core themes of the story nearly as well as Shkanon. So I came up with the following explanation which I haven’t seen mentioned. If this has been brought up before, I apologize for rehashing it. I follow the discussion fairly closely, so hopefully I haven’t overlooked it.

Let me first say that I am not convinced this is the answer, nor will I claim to have found the truth. This is only an idea, a possibility. I put it out there in hopes that others may see something in it, or shoot it down and propose something more fitting. I will be the first to admit that Shkanon may very well skillful misdirection.

Spoiler for Beatrice's Heart:

What if Beatrice, in her telling of episodes one through four, is cheating? This would mean that one of Beatrice’s gameboard rules is the logic error that Shannon, Kanon, and ‘Skirt Beatrice’ are separate people, but count as a single person. If I remember correctly, a metaworld discussion in episode 6 compares a logic error to cheating. If the Gamemaster is caught cheating by using a logic error in his game, and is then called out (as Erika does to Battler) and cannot explain or properly retell the story, the gameboard collapses and they are killed. This would mean that Meta-Beatrice was hoping all along, through the Shkanon clues she left him along with the seemingly unexplainable nature of many of the killings, that Meta-Battler would find out she was cheating by ‘hiding’ the culprit in the logic error that one person cannot be two separate people. If Meta-Battler had discovered this, Beatrice would have been killed and the game would cease to exist. Meta-Battler is incompetent and was unable to see this until episode 5.

So how does this relate to what happened in the ‘real world’ that day? I believe this to be some combination of different kakeras represented by the ‘Author Theory’ school of thought: Beatrice, in episodes one through four, is twisting the reality of each kakera into something more like an illusion. To say what really happened in each particular kakera would come close to writing fanfiction. You would have to rewrite the entire story without Shannon or Kanon, and simply with one human, Sayo, as the culprit.

Whether or not this is a fair solution, I cannot say. I can agree with the solution being fair insomuch that Ryukishi only expected us only to come to the conclusion that ‘Beatrice’s Heart’ is Shannon = Kanon = Skirt Beatrice. I would not think it very fair to many people for this answer to seem to conflict so harshly with the rules of reality and the perceived rules of the gameboard. This is why I think many people will reject my line of thinking.

All of that aside, there are a few other things I have noticed but not seen pointed out on these boards. They are:

Spoiler for Tomitake Flash:

The shirt George wears in episode 2: “Tomitake Flash.” While I at first thought this was more of a joke, the idea that he parallels Tomitake from Higurashi fits fairly well as an early (and not so subtle!) hint. It’s a similarly awkward relationship, and both are unaware that the women they are involved with are the true culprits.

Admittedly, this could really just be misdirection in the form of a joke, too.

Spoiler for Why is Genji furniture?:

Why is Genji considered furniture? My thinking behind this may be a bit touchy, so I’ll first explain its background as clearly as I can in the hope that I don’t cause offense. I haven’t seen this idea proposed before, so hopefully this isn’t another instance of me rehashing an old discussion.

In Episode 6, the neo-moe-Beato, whatever you want to call her, seems confused by the nature of furniture. She doesn’t understand what prevents furniture from loving a human. Zepar and Furfur give her examples of what would make someone furniture, and they are all essentially situations where love cannot be reciprocated.

Following this, I connected what I already felt was a possibility with Genji, assuming his Ronove meta-world counterpart is an accurate representation of his true personality. This may sound a bit out there, but what if Genji is gay and, well, has always loved Kinzo? I always felt Ronove was portrayed with a bit of flamboyance (“Yes, your majesty.”) Kinzo is straight, so he could never return the feelings Genji had for him. Thus, Genji is considered furniture in the context of the role of furniture.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Renall

About the only people left as dark horse culprit candidates at this point are Hideyoshi and Gohda, which is why I proposed the "Hideyoshi and Gohda are secret lovers committed to murdering those who would not understand their love" theory.

Very non-seriously.

Or... did I?

Oddly enough, awhile back-probably hundreds of pages ago now- somebody pointed out that, going by a theory that escapes me, Hideyoshi and Kyrie were the most likely candidates to plant a bomb. I ended building a "Kyrie and Hideyoshi are jealous of not being able to wear the eagle and are going to set off a bomb so everyone can get along" theory from it.

Looking at the fourth through sixth twilights of EP3, it becomes...slighty plausible. Slightly.

[Phasoms]

Originally Posted by Judoh

So I guess I'm going to put together my George culprit theory now. I'm not going to spend my time on the how for the murders because getting around the red and explaining things away is pretty easy (and something Battler says in game 5 [1] gives me an excuse to not worry about it) So I'm going to focus on hints that make him capable of being the culprit as a narrative and a person instead. So rather than a theory to get around the red think of this as a character analysis.

The first part is George's interest in the occult/magic.

Spoiler for space:

From the start we find out that George is a show off [2] (this is a flaw of his and it acts as a huge hint for the flashy way the murders are presented) and he likes to smooth things over when conversations are getting bad. In particular the conversations about Magic and personalities are one of the things he smooths things over with in the first two games [3]. From this we start to see more of George's intellectual ability and his tendency to steer conversation (and his understanding of personalities for you shkanon guys). It's George who suggests there might be a charm (scorpion charm) to protect Battler and Jessica from the witch [4]. It's George and Shannon who nod their head to every answer Maria gives about magic [5]. It's George who suggests in the prologue in game 2 before Shannon can say it, that him and Shannon's meeting each other was caused by magic and goes further to say that 'magic's power lies in the power of feeling'[6]. He implies he has own sources in the chapel when he impresses Battler with some knowledge about some magic circle and doesn't admit Maria told him [7], and he describes occult resurrection in great detail in his narration in game 3. [8] So from this we can guess that George at least has knowledge of the occult that is fairly above a basic level. He's also always the first person to notice Maria pull out the letter at Dinner and in the chapel (after she asks him if Dinner's over by the way) [9] and is the first to notice the gold bars on the table in game 2 also [10]. Add in Maria's rose and it's as if George is setting up every mystery in the first few games even mentioning how the letters are about collecting interest. If he's not behind all of this than he must be almost as bad as Nanjo at keeping secrets. In the later games it seems that some things get in the way though preventing the letters from being delivered. To go beyond this George has something in common with Maria [11] and Ange [12] in that he was bullied as a kid just like the both of them [13] and both of them started their occult hobbies from that experience. This explains why there is that huge backstory for Maria and Ange in game 4. If I'm right this serves as an important hint that we need to figure out George is the culprit. George also seems to prefer fantasies over mysteries (game 1 tea party) [14] and (game 6)[15]. So I can imagine him trying to make Battler think this is a fantasy on the gameboard level. All in all George knows things he shouldn't if he wasn't involved and he has characteristics of characters that have shown some importance in the story and I think that is suspicious in and of itself.

The second is George is the only person explicitly shown to be capable of Familicide.

Spoiler for space:

The only people I'd be sure he couldn't kill are Hideyoshi and his Fiance, Shannon. I'm not just talking about the Headship test in game 3 [16] where he outright says he can kill them all. George is calm and collected he's good at smoothing things over and directing conversation to the point where you might forget you were even talking about something uncomfortable just a minute ago. In certain scenes he's shown to be manipulative and says in his narration that he likes to bully Shannon that exposes that nature (though in a loving way) [17] . It wouldn't be unusual for him to be able to manipulate people into being an accomplice in murder in cases where he can't do it by himself in fact he's the only family member specifically shown to be ordering the servants for selfish reasons.[18] The only thing almost anyone else orders them for is delivering tea and doing chores. So it's possible for him to take advantage of rank and a furniture complex to gather accomplices if he doesn't have to bribe them. They don't even really need an order to follow him as long as they believe it is his will [19].(this kind of influence is also thought of as a possibility in Higurashi in Shion's TIPS about the Sonozaki conspiracy) In game 1 Eva implies something along the lines of “that if 19th person does not exist that means someone is manipulating people to murder (most specifically the servants) and George, ironically fits the bill in her theory about the culprit.[20] In this scene he's called a new master of the servants [21] Even more than that he thinks like a king using Hideyoshi's stories from the Sengoku era and Eva's monarch like attitude to create his own philosophy on life.[22] At the same time he's shown to be possessive of Shannon [23]. As noted by Oliver the metaphor used in reference to George's wedding ring that it's meant to say “this woman is mine” is very similar to the description to Erika's specially made ring for Battler in game 6 [24]. It's also emphasized in that same episode that George has no interest in becoming the family head [25]. So I can rule that out as a motive, honestly though I don't think it would've made sense as a motive for murder in the long run anyway. He wants to create his own business empire, and his own family [26] with the way he talks I don't think he has any attachments to this family right now I don't think he'd have a huge problem getting rid of them, but I don't know about what Shannon would think. It's said that he's well on his way in the business world, he's very prepared and I've suggested it's possible he had someone he knew like Okonogi [27] to pull some strings and fill the safety deposit boxes with illegal/yakuza money. Like Genji, maybe Okonogi owes him some kind of debt or maybe George promised him financial backing in the future. It could explain the 'world peace' thing in the game 6 tea party. Furthermore George was prepared enough to know that the Typhoon was coming and change his schedule, and this level of preparedness is necessary to set up a serial murder scheme like this [28] not only that I'd say it suggests he has some sort of big business responsibilities since he's prepared to go back on monday. The TIPS describe him as “an Affable young man who is loved by everyone in the family”[29]. It'd be totally unexpected for a “nice guy” like him to be a mass murderer.

Third he has tons of motive.

Spoiler for space:

He's been jealous of Battler since he was young.

He revealed in Episode 6 that he hated women before he found love through Shannon. And Battler left him alone with 3 women for 6 years. He could be completely bitter towards him because of that. [30]

As shown above he has certain occult beliefs or at least a basic understanding of them that's enough to manipulate certain people and has a certain ability to direct groups.

He seems to like to protect Maria in certain instances

If Battler's sin was against Shannon, Jessica, or Maria I could imagine that being carried over to George and if they forgot as well.

I also take this conversation about self satisfaction between Ange in Amakusa in game 4 as a hint for George and Shannon as it seems to connect to George's goal of him and Shannon being accepted [31] (I can't be bothered to make a picture of that whole conversation with Amakusa along WITH this give me a break, Just so you know though the scene the conversation is in is called “To the island of the witch”). I also think it has relevance to Battler's sin since it seems to mirror Beatrice's goal of being acknowledged in a round about way, but instead as a person and not a witch.

So these are my 30 pieces of evidence suggesting the George is the culprit

<So long have a nice day>

I think some of the best evidence that George may be the culprit is the fact that he's Eva's son. It's mentioned quite a few times in the story that he was raised and molded to be the Ushiromiya head. It's quite possible he developed a severe entitlement complex, maybe even mixed with some resentment for how he was raised.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Phasoms

I think some of the best evidence that George may be the culprit is the fact that he's Eva's son. It's mentioned quite a few times in the story that he was raised and molded to be the Ushiromiya head. It's quite possible he developed a severe entitlement complex, maybe even mixed with some resentment for how he was raised.

Actually I don't doubt that. Episode 6 makes it pretty clear that he expected a lot of things to go his way when they didn't. Like he expected to be the person who was popular with girls because he was gentlemanly while Battler wasn't. It didn't turn out to be true and he realized that he was wrong, but that doesn't mean he won't make the same type of mistake about other things with an entitlement complex.

He makes it pretty clear in this episode that he doesn't want to be the Ushiromiya family head if he can help it though and he has a grudge against his mother for pushing him to grow up for that. So I've crossed that out as a motive.

[Renall]

Well, if he gets rid of the family he's essentially creating a new family in his own image, as Kinzo did. If he looks up to the fortunate circumstances that put Kinzo in a position of such great power, he might be willing to engineer a scenario in which he (and maybe Shannon) is the sole survivor of another family-erasing disaster.

However, as George has yet to survive as far as we know, it would appear his plan to that effect never works out.

[UsagiTenpura]

The problem with George culprit theory is... arc 1.
He could've done the first twilight, and we could stretch things so that he also could've done the second one.

But for him to have possibly done the second one he would've needed some of the servants as accomplices.

As for twilight 4-5-6-7-8 + Natsuhi's death, they're completely impossible for him... unless he knows magic lol...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The problem with George culprit theory is... arc 1.
He could've done the first twilight, and we could stretch things so that he also could've done the second one.

But for him to have possibly done the second one he would've needed some of the servants as accomplices.

As for twilight 4-5-6-7-8 + Natsuhi's death, they're completely impossible for him... unless he knows magic lol...

If Shannon is Beatrice and manipulated by him, it's pretty easy. Shannon/Kanon are the most suspicious people in ep1 to begin with, and both wind up "dead."

[UsagiTenpura]

A "George is the culprit but Shannontrice is the killer" theory, that could work but I somehow doubt it. If George was "in" on the plan there's absolutely no reason to make him "unable to watch the possibly nonexistant corpse of Shannon" in twilight 1, arc 1.

I'd expect anyway something better then "Beato is the weapon and thus free of real guilt" while throwing all the hatred on a single character. Mind you I really don't like George and wouldn't mind if all these vices fell on him, but I think that's a wrong way to think about it.

After all this is a work of the creator of Higurashi, who's "lesson" was to teach us it's wrong to "blame all the sins" on a single person. Miss culprit wasn't responsible for half the bad things that happened in any given arcs anyway.

The worst character with the worst personality in Higurashi was probably Houjou Teppei. I think most of the "that person is a bad person and thus could be the culprit" theories I read makes me feel like we're all trying to find the Teppei of Umineko. The problem is even if we do, Teppei didn't kill anyone in Higurashi.


Edit Add : Also what? Battler's sin is being envied by George? How is that even a sin. That's George's sin.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Edit Add : Also what? Battler's sin is being envied by George? How is that even a sin. That's George's sin.

Nobody is saying that. But it's one of George's motives.

EDIT: And the reason I pin him as a culprit is not because he's easily blamed or easy to hate. If you read my theory I think it's possible for him to control a lot of things that happen and set up a lot of the early mysteries, and be a murderer in some instances but that's it. I don't hate George nobody does it's exactly because he's easily liked by everyone that makes him unexpected.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The problem with George culprit theory is... arc 1.
He could've done the first twilight, and we could stretch things so that he also could've done the second one.

EDIT: Need to quote the right person.. this thread moves too fast for me while I'm at work. 8)

Wait... just because George is the culprit does not mean he has responsible for all the killings. We know there are other killers out there, specifically Eva in EP3. There's also the Midnight Bomber and possibly Kanon, who may or may not be manipulated by George.

(Kanon seems to be rebelling against something; so it feels like he's rejecting some kind of coercion or manipulation instead.)

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

A "George is the culprit but Shannontrice is the killer" theory, that could work but I somehow doubt it. If George was "in" on the plan there's absolutely no reason to make him "unable to watch the possibly nonexistant corpse of Shannon" in twilight 1, arc 1.

Pretending, in order to avoid suspicion?

[UsagiTenpura]

Nontheless...
Ushiromiya Battler has a sin
Because of your sin, people die.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.

I don't think I'm willing to accept a theory not directly related to that.

Adding stuff....
Kyrie, Rosa, Natsuhi, George are people who said they'd be ready to kill in different circumstances.
Hideyoshi said he fired a gun lately and it seemingly wasn't in a firing range.

I like the idea that many people can kill and depending on the atmosphere/situation created in various arcs they do various of the murders.
However the atmosphere that causes all this to be possible in the first place is due to Beatrice's return, which would be related to Battler's return.

For instance something like...
Beato awakens because Battler returns, for a set of possible reasons decides to send the letter at the dinner concerning the epitaph. The situations that occurs afterward culminate in the fake or not fake first twilights, and from that point the results guides any of the possible killer to kill any of the others.

[Judoh]

It is related I gave some possibilities previously, but I don't know exactly who it's against.

Where does it say the sin has to be against the culprit? Why can't the culprit be affected by a sin against someone he cares about like Shannon or Maria? Where does it say the person he sinned against even remembers the sin?

[k//eternal]

Well, the whole "Battler never comes back to Shannon = Battler's sin" theory seems relatively well-accepted. Riffing on that, if Shannon is the killer and being manipulated by George, then if Battler had stayed around, he could have prevented this from happening.

Just a possible way to connect these issues.