US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[ganbaru]

Republicans complain taxpayers fund Obama political travel
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83P03O20120426

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Republicans complain taxpayers fund Obama political travel
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83P03O20120426

Heh... is that a bag they *really* want to open? Both parties use the perks of the office extensively, using official reasons to "fly to their districts" and visit various destinations at the taxpayer's dime. Every sitting president has done it regardless of party affiliation. The "bully pulpit" as Teddy R. called it requires the President go directly to the people.

We could argue that shouldn't be allowed to congresspeoples or the president ... but then that just opens the door to those lobbyist-paid excursions and other forms of vote-buying.

As for Reince Priebus (GOP Chairman who made the remarks) ..... well:

In an April 5, 2011 interview with Meredith Viera on The Today Show, Preibus stated, "Under [President Barack Obama], he’s promised millions and millions of jobs. We've lost 26 million jobs, Meredith, since he’s been president. He promised under an $850 billion stimulus program that we'd be on a path to recovery. Well, none of that has come true.... I think that pointing out a snail's pace in the job (growth) numbers is not going to be enough to undo 26 million jobs that are lost, Meredith." The non-partisan watchdog group PolitiFact rated the 26 million job figure as 'Pants On Fire'. Priebus claimed to have simply misspoke, and later clarified his mistake. [16]

Right.... get the lie out first, then retract on page 12 a few days later. *cough*

The guy has done a lot to fix what his predecessor screwed up... but his job is still to fill the air with bullshit so its hard for voters to have informed opinions. The DNC chairman isn't any better, taking her chairman hat on and off and playing the "dumb" card when it suits her. Neither is really very credible.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Even during the two year the Democrats had majority in Congress, wasn't it the case that it wasn't large enough a majority to keep the Republicans from gumming up the works by being filibustering asses? Least, that's what I remembered.

Yes. To pass any legislation in Congress today, you need a party super-majority or you need to convince some members of the other party to side with you. You can already see the problem for the Democrats here just with that sentence.

While the Blue Dogs were definitely the most conservative of the Democratic party, they could be pushed into voting with "scratch my back, scratch yours" politics. Even a few Republicans could be found that would work, occasionally, with Democrats on legislation, like Brown or Snowe. However the Republicans have used the filibuster on anything that was called to vote, meaning that from the time the Democrats took majorities in Congress (from 2007-onward), nothing has really gotten done. After the 2010 elections, Congress has basically become gridlocked. The only legislation that really goes anywhere is stuff that keeps the lights on, and even that gets blocked like crazy in attempts to gain political points.

Now this isn't all the Republicans fault. In the political arena, Obama came into power with a lot of "bully pulpit" - basically he had the people behind him very strongly. He could have used that, but he did not. It's arguable that he is as liberal as his candidacy implied, considering his accomplishments and overall governing style. And the Democrats, despite a few outspoken liberals, have mostly moved lock step with him....but not without grumbling.

If there is one thing to take away from the 2010 elections, it's that Blue Dogs lost, badly. This election isn't looking good for them either.

The reasons behind it are numerous, but the shift in power will be noticeable in the party, as it becomes further left. Moderates on both sides are getting pounded, and this isn't a good thing for anyone.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Solace

The reasons behind it are numerous, but the shift in power will be noticeable in the party, as it becomes further left. Moderates on both sides are getting pounded, and this isn't a good thing for anyone.

The moderates in America do not vote. So they are to blame for sitting at home. You get the government you deserve.

Every time I watch Americans have another election, I lose respect for its population a little more. Because how America run its political campaigns directly reflects what Americans are about.

And it had been a disgraceful few months.

You will get the government you deserve, America. Nothing more, nothing less. This is the curse Democracy brings; you have to carry the responsibility, no matter who you vote for, and no matter if you even vote at all.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The moderates in America do not vote. So they are to blame for sitting at home. You get the government you deserve.

The moderates not voting isn't the problem. The electoral college and first-past-the-post systems are the problem. The systems we use will always create an extreme, polarized two-party system after an arbitrary period of time. You can run the figures yourself. It's just how the math works out.

Even if the moderates voted (and I'm sure a lot of them do, even if a lot of them don't as well), they have only two choices, because the voting system itself is fundamentally broken.

Honestly, what do you expect from people? They vote and they see their votes doing nothing, so they stop trying. Why is this a surprise to anyone? Repeating the same course of action multiple times and expecting a different result each time is a definition of insanity.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The moderates not voting isn't the problem. The electoral college and first-past-the-post systems are the problem. The systems we use will always create an extreme, polarized two-party system after an arbitrary period of time. You can run the figures yourself. It's just how the math works out.

Even if the moderates voted (and I'm sure a lot of them do, even if a lot of them don't as well), they have only two choices, because the voting system itself is fundamentally broken.

Honestly, what do you expect from people? They vote and they see their votes doing nothing, so they stop trying. Why is this a surprise to anyone? Repeating the same course of action multiple times and expecting a different result each time is a definition of insanity.

What do I expect from Americans? I expect them to do something to get what they want. Or do nothing and get nothing.

Obviously not enough Americans complain about first-past-the-post, because otherwise you would be rioting in the streets by now.

Just because I know why Americans stopped trying, doesn't mean I had to approve of it. Just because it is understandable doesn't justify it. It is your country. The rest of us can't vote and can only watch on the sidelines as the world's greatest military and nuclear power rip itself apart and become more and more insane.

Seriously, you Americans are, on average, going nuts. And the rest of us are not happy about that. We already got North Korea to worry about. The more insane American voters get, the more insane the government get. You do realise you could doom us all, right?

[synaesthetic]

You think I'm happy about this? Of course not, but I can't do a thing. Even a million of us together couldn't do a thing. This place is so massively screwed that most of my friends and I are seriously contemplating leaving the country because a statistically significant number of our fellow citizens and the politicians they elect scare the crap out of us.

You think it's bad watching from the sidelines? You don't know bad. You're not stuck here, in the "world's most advanced nation" that won't even let me and my partner be legally married.

Nobody is going to riot in the streets over our broken system of elections. It's just not going to happen. People feel too powerless. You can only fight so long before the fight's been kicked out of you.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

I looked up from 2008 to 2010 and the democrats had the majority of control. Were they able to accomplish things then? Or was there still hindrance?

They were able to accomplish some things (compared to the zero now), but not as much as they should have been able to do.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Even during the two year the Democrats had majority in Congress, wasn't it the case that it wasn't large enough a majority to keep the Republicans from gumming up the works by being filibustering asses? Least, that's what I remembered.

Somewhat, but a lot of it is that the democrats aren't united like the hivemind GOP. They loosely agree on sociatal necessities, but disagree on what needs to be done. Thus allowing the GOP minority to still have its way.

The best way to describe this was put out there by... I forget who, maybe Pelosi? When the GOP says "This is a table", all its members agree that it is indeed a table. Period. When the democrats say "This is a table", some members counter that it's a round table, or that it's brown, or that it's a table with a glass of water on it, etc. Basically, they agree with the premise, but disagree on the specifics.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The moderates in America do not vote. So they are to blame for sitting at home. You get the government you deserve.

Yes they do. And they always say that it's the moderates who decide the elections, since the core of both parties supposedly vote their own way anyway.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Seriously, you Americans are, on average, going nuts. And the rest of us are not happy about that. We already got North Korea to worry about. The more insane American voters get, the more insane the government get. You do realise you could doom us all, right?

No, no, you're missing a step here. The big companies are buying the government, and using more money to stir up the populace, causing them to go insane, and thus helping in their cause to buy up the government and fill it with insane people. Because that's conflict. And conflict creates money. And that's what they want.

[Vexx]

The barons profit in chaos... there's a whole field of study on profiteering off of instability, fear, and uncertainty.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The barons profit in chaos... there's a whole field of study on profiteering off of instability, fear, and uncertainty.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

[Vexx]

Even better, create the "crisis" and then $$$$.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Even better, create the "crisis" and then $$$$.

Supposedly, when they created the crisis in 2008, they lost alot of money to electronic traders because the latter short-sold the shares faster than the counter managers can stop-hunt them. The problem is, the owners can't short-sell their own shares, they can only sell off whatever shares they have.

Big China Corp might be imitating you guys though,

Analysis: China's ailing bad debt market cries for change

Go figure.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Supposedly, when they created the crisis in 2008, they lost alot of money to electronic traders because the latter short-sold the shares faster than the counter managers can stop-hunt them. The problem is, the owners can't short-sell their own shares, they can only sell off whatever shares they have.

Big China Corp might be imitating you guys though,

Analysis: China's ailing bad debt market cries for change

Go figure.

News to me. But I am not surprised.

China might not be a Democracy, but it certainly has bureaucracy. And Bureaucrats never want to make hard decisions. Ideally a despot like Stalin would have been able to make tough decisions without worrying about keeping power. But China doesn't have a despot, but factions. The factions might not be elected by the people, but that doesn't mean they are free from the pressures of trying to keep their jobs.

[Sugetsu]

Well, it is finally proven, last night in The Last Word, an msnbc show, conclusive evidence came out that the Republicans planned to oppose absolutely anything that the president proposes in a meeting that took place in the day of his inauguration.

A book came out called: Inside the U.S House of Representatives, Do Not Ask What Good We Do. In it there is damming evidence of how all of the outrage over this president is mostly fabricated. Have you ever stopped to think that much of the "anger of the American people" during 2009 and 2010 came out from conservatives? Of course, the creation of the Tea party was instrumental in driving the GOP agenda

Now, the Republicans are counting on the stupidity of the Americans to forget all the filler busting and obstructionism come election day, and claim that Obama is full of broken promises.






I gotta give it to the Republicans though, those guys are master spin doctors. They have created so much noise and confusion that most people can only say "We hate the government", which is exactly that GOP wants. Of course, there was no unified "We hate the government" chanting when Bush was in power.

[Urzu 7]

The GOP, the real terrorism America faces...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

I gotta give it to the Republicans though, those guys are master spin doctors. They have created so much noise and confusion that most people can only say "We hate the government", which is exactly that GOP wants. Of course, there was no unified "We hate the government" chanting when Bush was in power.

I still refuse to give the American people a free pass. I already know this is going on before you show me the evidence, so the fact that the American people fell for it hook line and sinker isn't the GOP's fault. They only did what they know would work. What do you think they should do, try to win over the people with logic and facts?

The plan worked, which means Americans deserves the outcome.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

The GOP, the real terrorism America faces...

Seriously. How are we not trying these "people" for treason or conspiracies against the American people?

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I still refuse to give the American people a free pass. I already know this is going on before you show me the evidence, so the fact that the American people fell for it hook line and sinker isn't the GOP's fault. They only did what they know would work. What do you think they should do, try to win over the people with logic and facts?

The plan worked, which means Americans deserves the outcome.

Most of the people who fell for the GOPs evil ways and lies are conservatives. There are a lot of liberal and moderates that know a lot of Americans are being seriously played.

Think about it, it was so easy to paint Barack Obama as such a bad guy because he is black. There are plenty of people that don't like him (and are being played by the GOP) who are not racist, but so many people who are being played by the GOP have a prejudice against blacks, or are downright racist. The GOP is exploiting this to the fullest.

Originally Posted by GDB

Seriously. How are we not trying these "people" for treason or conspiracies against the American people?

I hate it when conservatives blame liberals for most of the division in this country right now. Liberals and some moderates may feel divided from others, but a lot of liberals and moderates have a better idea of what is going on and want more unity. The GOP, starting with GWB, has been severely polarizing the country. And yet some people think the ones who should take most of the blame, or all of the blame, are liberals and Obama.

And I just acknowledged some liberals and moderates are contributing to the polarization. But let's face it, most of the blame for this falls on the GOP and certain conservatives and most ultra conservatives.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by GDB

Seriously. How are we not trying these "people" for treason or conspiracies against the American people?

Because they are doing it ''within'' what's allowed to be done. They are clearly harming their country ( and probably some more...) but to put them into trial, you would probably need to become a despotism.

[GDB]

Pretty sure conspiracies and collusion of this nature is illegal. There's nothing legal about it. At the very least we should be able to impeach them, but we all know that won't happen as long as they don't go against their corporate overlords.