[Manga] Chapter 465 Discussion

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

You misunderstand what I said was that he merely survived the Raikage's attacks and was running away now that Raikage, Gaara, Temari, Kankurou and Darui started attacking him together and he was low on chakra. Chakra he needs to kill Danzou

I'm not misunderstanding you. What I'm trying to figure out is why you say he's running away from Raikage's wrath and the others to save chakra just to face against the rest of the Kages he knows are there waiting for him. He may as well fight them all for what it matters.

Originally Posted by james0246

No he is just running around period. He is looking for his big bad, while trying to avoid/ignore all the other powerful figures. It's like playing a RPG where you target the Summoner/Healer in an enemy party before you fight the more physically power grunts. Actually that analogy doesn't make any sense . It's like playing an FPS were your mission is to sneak kill one man but leave the others alone, but you get spotted, so you start running around dodging fire, all the while looking for your target. Sasuke's aim is Danzou, so right now he is just trying to break through/past the defense of the other Kages in order to get to Danzou.

That makes more sense to me, since it's what I already figured the moment Zetsu sold him out.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by james0246

sneak kill one man but leave the others alone, but you get spotted, so you start running around dodging fire, all the while looking for your target.

I take it you've played Prototype?

Another analogy is it is like when you just want to get straight to the boss in an RPG and you dont want to tap A and watch the same fighting sequence 10000 times to get there so you skip battles and use an item that evades random encounters.

Unfortunately for Sasuke he doesnt have the item to evade random encounters and instead he has an item that increases random encounters and gives double XP

[james0246]

Since I was tired last time, here is a full response...

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Its occurred to me that Sasuke actually isn't overpowered.

You have me interested, now what will you say next...

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Simply going by the progression of the story, and the fact that Kishi has worked hard to keep Sasuke relevant by powering him up ... Sasuke has either the power of a tailed beast in him or some equally powerful spirit.

...Oh, never mind then, you lost me right off the bat...

Only you could equate not being overpowered to having a bijuu or some other malevolent spirit .

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

And being that Kishi has strongly implied that Naruto and Sasuke will have some showdown in the end and by then Naruto will probably have more if not total control over his bijuu, the only way to make the fight interesting is for Sasuke to have a comparable spirit at his own disposal.

Not necessarily. Naruto hates the Kyuubi, and I do not see how even the total subjugation of the beast would change Naruto opinion. Rather, if you analyze Naruto as a character that is righting all of Konoha's wrongs (Pain, Hyuuga slavery, Madara and the Uchiha Clan, etc), then the Kyuubi becomes a task/opponent Naruto must face and defeat for the sake of Konoha - were the 4th failed, Naruto must succeed.

That being said, you appear to be forgetting one key detail: the Sahringan/MS already controls the Kyuubi. So, it stands to reason that anything less (from Naruto) than complete subjugation of the beast would result in Sasuke sealing off the power. Additionally, since the MS is meant to control the Kyuubi anyway, it seems probable that the individual techniques (Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o) are already powerful enough without needing the help of a foreign power source/demon/spirit/etc.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That would mean that Susanoo is the spirit, amaterasu is its power and tsukuyomi is its mind. The MS is just a conduit through which the spirit can exist in our world.

I postulated something smilar a year or two ago on NF (and others over the years have made similar hypothesis), but decided that the theory was too arm-chaired. But, I kept it on the backburner in case something new had come up. But, now that we have the info on the Sage of Six Paths, I find it more unlikely that there is any real "pressence" behind the Sharingan, but rather this generational hatred seems to be the specter that surrounds the Uchiha Clan.

It's still an interesting idea you (we) have come up with .

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

In the end, it makes sense. No one, IMO at least, would stand a chance against Naruto once Naruto has mastered his bijuu. The only way to make a showdown feasible is to equip them with a bijuu or something equally as powerful.

Minato defeated the Kyuubi...and Madara and Hashirama had the ability to control/defeat it. So, even if Naruto does become supremely powerful, that doesn't make him undefeatable.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

All the instant power ups and recent surpassing of Itachi's prowess with the three abilities makes sense if Sasuke's hate was greater than Itachi's own, and because of that maybe the spirit is stronger inside of Sasuke, and therefore is blinding him with a never-ending appetite for hate and vengeance.

The first part I fully agree with. Sasuke's hate empowers his techniques. It not only makes sense, it is more or less canon (we all know that will and intent matter more than physical power (this is Shounen after all), so Sasuke's powerful will enforcing his techniques makes perfect sense). But, the second part of your statement is what is troubling. Why can't it simply be that Sasuke's rage, hate and pain causes him to fight more strongly and more powerfully than he would without the emotions. In other words, why does any external force have to exist to make him stronger when a more immediate and obvious answer (emotions influence power) exists?

To put it another way, berserker rages were once thought to be influenced by demons and other external forces, but, in reality, it is just an emotional frenzy certain very disturbed individuals can work themselves in to (drugs could also work, but that is getting a little to debatable for my point ).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If you look at Sasuke's face as he fights the Raikage, you'll notice that when Sasuke uses the MS abilities it, IMO, seems more like its happening to him rather than something he's willing into effect.

Considerng the fact that Sasuke told Juugo he was going to use some new moves, it seems that Sasuke had full knowledge of the various techniques. Hell, he even had names for everything.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I think that he may have surpassed Itachi because of his experience with the curse seal. From what I understand, the curse seal level 2 puts the user into a killing, savage state of mind ... leaving them detached from any feelings of compassion or sympathy. It could be because of that experience Sasuke could make his hatred even greater than Itachi's own...

Now this I like. This crates a greater and more justifiable reason for Sasuke having the CS/CS2 were before it was merely a tool for Sasuke to equal Naruto's bijuu, now it becomes an interesting device by which Sasuke is able to expand his hatred reserves .

[noven]

I never really saw Itachi as a character who embodied hatred. To me his stoicism symbolized a deeply buried peaceful disposition. If anything, Sasuke's dependence on emotion (despite that he focused his rage into cold malice during part 2) is what separates and distinguishes him from Itachi, not so much a similarity through which he can surpass Itachi and thus gain more power from it.

[Cinocard]

Minato defeated the Kyuubi...and Madara and Hashirama had the ability to control/defeat it. So, even if Naruto does become supremely powerful, that doesn't make him undefeatable.

But it had no host. Imagine a Hashirama-kyuubi combo. But rather than having the final villain equipped with the tailed beast (or beasts ), I would say the kyuubi will be extracted out of Naruto instead, or else he would forever be under the kyuubi shadow, and every hater would just scream that he wins because of Kyuubi.

[james0246]

^As I said, I do think that Naruto will somehow vanquish the Kyuubi by the end of the series. Whether the Kyuubi's chakra is still left behind (insiide of Naruto) or not is unknown. But, if Naruto is really going to stand above the other Hokage's ("to be the greatest Hokage"), then he will have to accomplish what Mianto failed to do, and that is destroy the Kyuubi.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by james0246

^As I said, I do think that Naruto will somehow vanquish the Kyuubi by the end of the series. Whether the Kyuubi's chakra is still left behind (insiide of Naruto) or not is unknown. But, if Naruto is really going to stand above the other Hokage's ("to be the greatest Hokage"), then he will have to accomplish what Mianto failed to do, and that is destroy the Kyuubi.

If Kyuubi's and Naruto's chakras are really merging as it was stated long ago in Pt1, then Kyuubi is as good as dead as long as no one pull it out of Naruto, right ?

Anyways, Naruto will fight Madara with Kyuubi unless he gets a new ability out of thin air (the special ability required to fight Madara according to Minato), so if Madara is the final villain, Naruto isn't going to lose the Kyuubi.

However, Madara has been losing ground as final villain lately.
1. He shouldn't ever be "whole" since Naruto will fight him with the Kyuubi.
2. whatever he wants to do with Sasuke is bound to fail as soon as Naruto meets him (at worst, thanks to Itachi gift) and it's likely to be in this arc.

So maybe Madara will fail early and final arcs will focus on the aftermaths of Akatsuki's war / Naruto's revolution with the fate reserved to the bijuus and Kabuto, whose newfound ideology is a perversion of Naruto's. And possibly the reappearance of Rikudou Sennin (the real one) since he is supposed to be at the beginning and the end of the ninja world. (and he will be roughly what Madara was trying to be)
Kishi wouldn't keep hiding his silhouette if he wasn't supposed to appear in the manga IMHO.

It's more a wish than a prediction though.
It's more likely than Sasuke will be final villain and Naruto will roll in his bed thinking about him every 20 chapters until the end.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Since i cannot write this in an anime-only thread i'll just write it here. According to the anime (and i guess it's not wrong) Jiraiya did meet the later Pain bodies before he trained Nagato, so that means that those guys becoming Pain bodies must be fate. The whole "fate" theme had a huge impact in Nagato's story, the sole reason Naruto survived against Nagato who could have killed Naruto is because of fate, or maybe it's better to say that Nagato had understood that everything happening like that cannot be random so it must be fate, so he died thinking that his death is fate. Even having one body that was killed by Jiraiya or that Jiraiya met has very low chance, but having all 6 of them cannot be other than fate. When i read the manga i was thinking that it happened in the reverse cronological order, so that when Jiraiya met or killed those ninjas then Nagato was following him and collecting the bodies, but i guess that would be nonsense. So it was fate, the simplest answer After all the thinking that Jiraiya did about Pain during their battle and finally making the important code on the back of Fukasaku. So i was thinking there's some great mystery behind all that, but it turns out that it was nothing, just something called "fate"

[That Other Ninja]

Then I guess Sasuke is fated to fail.

Mizukage and Yonton? That seems paradoxical given that she's the Kage of a water village...

[noven]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Then I guess Sasuke is fated to fail.

Mizukage and Yonton? That seems paradoxical given that she's the Kage of a water village...

I'm still waiting for her to reveal a Byakugan...

>.>

[Divine Punisher]

lol sasukes ass is on survival-mode. its just a matter of time until he cracks. best case scenario is he will reach danzou but with 0,05 % chakra left.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Rahan

However, Madara has been losing ground as final villain lately..

It should be obvious by now that Saskue is the final villain!
Saskue is gonna kill Madara before this thing is over then he will battle Naruto.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Mizukage and Yonton? That seems paradoxical given that she's the Kage of a water village...

There has been quite a bit of debate about this issue. To summarize, the Kanji used in the name of the technique can be written to indicate fire (熔遁 - which is how Roushi’s Lave technique is written), and to indicate water (溶遁 – which is used in this chapter by Choujuurou to describe the Mizukage’s technique). But, then again, the kanji itself is not often used, and Kishimoto has already confused the Kanji in the past. Whatever the case, an actual picture is needed to elucidate the issue (much the same as a better detailed picture is needed to understand where Sasuke's Susano'o sword came from).

[Haak]

Damn for some reason I was kinda hoping the Mizukage wuld be Haku's mother....

Great chapter though.

[Kid Ying]

The translated version is already out.

Well, this chapter was kind of disappointing to me... Nothing big happened, besides Sasuke finally seeing Danzou... For a second. Now the Mizukage is in da house too, like pretty much everyone except Danzou.

I hope that Kishi will show what is happening with Sakura in the next chap.

[james0246]

LOL, "A cave-in born of hatred"....

[Haak]

Originally Posted by james0246

LOL, "A cave-in born of hatred"....

I also loled Suigetsu's head and his expression.

But I'm confused. What exactly did Juugo do to save himself? Or did he save the Samurai?

[Bordix]

lol, looks to me the mizukage loogey'd the hole shut

quick! Sasuke, make yourself another hole and continue pursuing Danzou, leave Karin behind to buy time (though I don't think she'll last a second :P) You've already ditched most of your teammates

If sasuke does decide to fight the remaining kages, Karin is screwed, anyone can take her hostage or kill her easily.

Most probably the Zetsu shown apparently dead will grab Sasuke and extend his jutsu to Sasuke then take him back to where Madara is.

ah yes, we can't forget Zetsu.

But I'm confused. What exactly did Juugo do to save himself? Or did he save the Samurai?

I think he sucked the life force out of that guy to save himself.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Haak

I also loled Suigetsu's head and his expression.

But I'm confused. What exactly did Juugo do to save himself? Or did he save the Samurai?

He ate the poor samurai. Literally. You see the armor slowly deflate, so Juugo appears to have sucked out all the juices inside the former samurai...

Additionally, the Mizukage's bloodline ability does not look like lava (or at least I would expect lava to be drawn a little darker than what was shown), but it is obviously a corrosive substance of some sort.

Added to that, it is still unclear where Susano'o's sword comes from...which kind of annoys me. We didn't see a gourd on the construct's body, so it is highly unlikely to be the Sakenagi.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by james0246

He ate the poor samurai. Literally. You see the armor slowly deflate, so Juugo appears to have sucked out all the juices inside the former samurai...

Can't wait for that to be animated.

Additionally, the Mizukage's bloodline ability does not look like lava (or at least I would expect lava to be drawn a little darker than what was shown), but it is obviously a corrosive substance of some sort.

The Naruto wiki says it's acid on the fifth Mizukage artcile.