Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[IceHism]

What a great episode. It put in some philosophical banter which was something i missed really badly from season 1 since this season was lacking a lot of it. Now we just need to name drop famous philosophers.

I wonder how akane will deal with the fact that her grandmother is dead now. Also, akane was so cute this episode. I'm looking forward to see how Togane and sybil deal with Akane and kamui now. Also really interested to see if Sybil could judge itself.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by atua

Can someone explain what happened in the burning house scene? Because the translation in that scene was kind of bad. Who are the people in the burning house? Was it the politicians & business people who benefited from the Season of Hell? And what's the deal with the illegal immigrants?

I'll try to explain from what I gathered. The people in the City Hall were politicians or people of influence who helped Kamui. He was able to go and do what he did from the help of those people. Those people gain their wealth and position when they took advantage of Season of Hell. They followed Kamui since their Crime-Coefficient was rising, and they wanted to be free from Sibyl who will eventually eliminate them. Part of the reason their CC was rising was because they took in illegal immigrants and mutilated them for their sick pleasure. They "helped" the illegals, but exploited them at the same time. The animals are actually holograms on top of the mutilated illegals.

After Kamui was finished using those politicians and people of influence, he decided to eliminate them, since he felt they were connected to the Season of Hell. After the murders, they burned up City Hall probably to cover their tracks, but I'm not sure about the reason for burning it up. The politicians and people of influence were burned as well as the mutilated illegals.

Hope that answers your questions.

Originally Posted by itisjustme

I don't really understand how we went from the panicky Mika and seemingly bad things about to happen of last episode's end to everyone standing nicely in the office and Mika applauding like she's just been brainwashed or something.

Mika was in a desperate situation. She was fearing for her life, and almost broke down due to that fear. Sibyl decided to experiment on her to see how the population might react to the announcement of Sibyl being run by a bunch of asymptomatic criminals. After Sibyl explained everything to Mika, she pretty much had a mental breakdown. Fearing for her life, she agreed and pretended everything was great. She had no other choice, or else Sibyl might decide to eliminate her.

[chi4ko]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

I don't really understand how we went from the panicky Mika and seemingly bad things about to happen of last episode's end to everyone standing nicely in the office and Mika applauding like she's just been brainwashed or something.

Ugh. Is this so hard to get really? Last episode Mika learnt that the her boss is corrupt, in cahoots with Tougane (family connections, you see) whom she viewed as suspect no. 1 the whole time and can off her anytime with no regards to her PP reading and cover it up. What Mika always believed the system to be (that it's impersonal and upholds the same justice it instills in the citizens) turned out to be a pile of rubbish. She is fighting for her life by being as compliant and boot-licking as she can.

edit: Double reply, huh.

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Mika was in a desperate situation. She was fearing for her life, and almost broke down due to that fear. Sibyl decided to experiment on her to see how the population might react to the announcement of Sibyl being run by a bunch of asymptomatic criminals. After Sibyl explained everything to Mika, she pretty much had a mental breakdown. Fearing for her life, she agreed and pretended everything was great. She had no other choice, or else Sibyl might decide to eliminate her.

Yet her Hue was clean if she was feigning it her Hue would have go up due to stress.

It shows us how either something in Mika brain snapped on that moment , or that society is brainwashed so to speak to acept everything considered righteous (and Sybil on its own way maintains peace albeit one earned by restricting freedom).

In any case her Hue does not lie: She really thinks that Sybil system is awesome

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Geburah

Yet her Hue was clean if she was feigning it her Hue would have go up due to stress.

It shows us how either something in Mika brain snapped on that moment , or that society is brainwashed so to speak to acept everything considered righteous (and Sybil on its own way maintains peace albeit one earned by restricting freedom).

In any case her Hue does not lie: She really thinks that Sybil system is awesome

Hard to say. In episode 8, after she started panicking, her CC did not change much as Tougane stated. It could be due to how Mika thinks, or she could be forcing her mind to think that way. Dominators are not lie detectors. They are only "supposedly" checking to see if someone is a latent criminal. Mika was more scared for life to say anything to save it instead of thinking of rebelling or fighting back.

[Geburah]

Lets put it this way if you are threatened with death your Hue will go up like mad. Remember the hostages case on which everyone has crazy high Hues.

It requires balls of steel to be unfazed in the face of your own possible death, and im sure that Mika isnt like that seeing her previous outburst.

Mika simply lacked to stress when they were measuring her which means shes NOT bluffing.
A normal person will get stressed if they are bluffing because they are afraid of their bluff to be noticed moreso if you are betting your life on that bluff.

They looked like if her response was positive they would allow her to live if it was negative they would get rid of her (plus in that case probably her hue would go up anyway)

[atua]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I'll try to explain from what I gathered. The people in the City Hall were politicians or people of influence who helped Kamui. He was able to go and do what he did from the help of those people. Those people gain their wealth and position when they took advantage of Season of Hell. They followed Kamui since their Crime-Coefficient was rising, and they wanted to be free from Sibyl who will eventually eliminate them. Part of the reason their CC was rising was because they took in illegal immigrants and mutilated them for their sick pleasure. They "helped" the illegals, but exploited them at the same time. The animals are actually holograms on top of the mutilated illegals.

In other words, the whole illegal immigrants situation is just a continuation of the "shock and gore" theme this season. Lame. There's no actual plot reason to include these people, because the politicians/businessmen's CC would rise from the fact that they're trying to overthrow Sibyl anyway, and so would still need Kamui's "help".

So why did Kamui kill these poor immigrants along with the corrupt politicians? I can understand Kamui and his people wanting revenge for the Season of Hell incidents and to overthrow Sibyl, but those immigrants are just victims.

[thundrakkon]

@Geburah
The concern was why Mika's stress initially did not cause much of a shift in her CC. Normally, a person's CC should have spiked, but hers did not in episode 8. That could be due to her being asymptomatic or because she has complete faith in the system.

The scene with the psychiatric ward had people raise their stress level, but it wasn't to dangerous levels until much later near the end of the ordeal. At that point, those people would probably do anything to get out, which if it had to come to it, trample other people in their path. Their mind was broke. Also, you have to keep in mind that they are patients from the psychiatric ward who needed medication to keep their minds in check. True, if someone's stress level is high enough, they could potentially commit a crime, which is what Sibyl is trying to say.

As for Mika, she probably was very high stressed. However, her reaction to that high stress was compliance, not criminal activity. Her whole underlying reasoning is that she must obey and listen to Sibyl in order to live. She doesn't necessarily have to agree with it, but she just has to not disagree with it. In her mind, it's probably "I'll do anything and say anything to live", which is different from "I'm going to take down Sibyl or kill Tougane to get out". Mika is a coward, which is what Sibyl believes most of the population are.

It's not really a bluff. It's more, "I'll say anything you want to hear, and I'll do anything in order to not get killed". High stress, yes, but in a way that is acceptable to Sibyl; hence, her CC did not rise. It's a subtle difference from the hostages, who acted more like crazed animals on a stampede at that point.

Who knows? You might be right and Mika is really twisted.

[Geburah]

Remember that the hostages stress wasnt criminal activity yet they were over 250.
Stress situations have been asociated with Hue increase.

Sybil cant read minds and say "hey this stress is for wanting to get a movie entrance in time its good, and this one is for hating his ex wife forcing him to pay all her expenses despite bringing him almost bankrupt , this one is bad hes a latent criminal". Steess is stress no matter the cause and it causes a risk increase on Hues wich might translate on becoming a latent criminal

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by atua

In other words, the whole illegal immigrants situation is just a continuation of the "shock and gore" theme this season. Lame. There's no actual plot reason to include these people, because the politicians/businessmen's CC would rise from the fact that they're trying to overthrow Sibyl anyway, and so would still need Kamui's "help".

So why did Kamui kill these poor immigrants along with the corrupt politicians? I can understand Kamui and his people wanting revenge for the Season of Hell incidents and to overthrow Sibyl, but those immigrants are just victims.

Kamui has been showing his followers how to keep their CC down from meditation and control of mind methods. However, due to the overabundance (illegals, for one) from those politicians and people of influence, their CC is steadily rising out of control. Overthrowing Sibyl mentality probably can be controlled through meditation to keep the CC low.

I'm guessing the illegals were put into the story as more a social commentary by the writer. One, it's how Japan currently do not treat their immigrants really well in today's society. Two, it is showing how politicians and rich people are perverse in that society, enjoying perverse things. This is not the only show depicting the powerful and rich to be pretty disgusting. Speed Grapher anime is one that comes to mind with similar sentiments.

As for the illegals, they are more or less dying. It's to end their suffering by burning them with the others.

Originally Posted by Geburah

Sybil cant read minds and say "hey this stress is for wanting to get a movie entrance in time its good, and this one is for hating his ex wife forcing him to pay all her expenses despite bringing him almost bankrupt , this one is bad hes a latent criminal". Steess is stress no matter the cause and it causes a risk increase on Hues wich might translate on becoming a latent criminal

Last I'm going to comment on this.

The whole CC methodology is pseudo-science, and we don't understand the technical details of it. They are always trying to improve it by putting in more asymptomatic criminals and figuring out ways to understand these criminals. Stress level is one way to figure things out, but in the world of Psycho-Pass science, a sort of feeling and intent is also detected. Hue stands for the color a person has. In essence, it's an aura around people. Supposedly, when people feel different emotions, their hue changes. Hence, anger will have a different color than fear, but both result in stress. Supposedly, the scanners in Psycho-Pass are able to distinguish between those colors; hence, the term hue is used and Kamui's question of "What Color?" is repeatedly shown. There is a lot of factors that we don't know which contribute to what the numbers add up to in Crime-Coefficient. Feelings and intent definitely play a part in determining it.

[MisaoFan]

Spoiler for Episode 9:

This season's current plot threads doesn't have much to do with the previous one, but holy shit these last few episodes made my blood boils so hard. We finally get able to know more of Kirito and Tougane and I'm starting to like how Mika realize her own faults for doing anything.

I don't know the reason Tougane chase after Akane besides painting her Hue into the color of abyss, it was just there for shock value. He's known for having the worst case scenario when it comes to his CC, his piece of flashback showing him torturing puppies doesn't really help much.

Poor Aoi getting beaten up by that guy being known as the liar and the murderous bastard, I hope nothing wrong happen to her later like the death of Akane's certain friend...

Besides, the level of violence and creepy torture levelled up this season with even more shocking events incoming, I wonder how they will explain more about Sibyl System, the Dominator's backstory and how Joshu Kasei is reminiscient of Tougane's mother. There's way too much stuff to feel so compressed badly in a short episode format, it would be better if the creators fixed it to extend beyond everything that's happening so far, or at least include more scenes in-between.

Now I wonder how the upcoming film will answer to everything?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by atua

So why did Kamui kill these poor immigrants along with the corrupt politicians? I can understand Kamui and his people wanting revenge for the Season of Hell incidents and to overthrow Sibyl, but those immigrants are just victims.

They said in this episode itself. The politicians screwed with the immigrants' bodies to the point that they were barely human anymore, and they wouldn't be able to go back to how they once were. If you've seen Fate/Zero, they basically pulled a Caster.

[Geburah]

A Hue is a person's stress level. Every citizen in Sibyl's database is assigned a certain color depending on the state of their Psycho-Pass. Clear colors such as light blue or pink indicate a strong and healthy Psycho-Pass. While colors such as medium green or steel blue indicate a deteriorated Psycho-Pass.

A clouded Hue is usually occurs because of stress. For example, violent urges an individual may feel can cloud the Hue.

A Hue that is completely clear appears white, while a Hue clouded beyond recognition appears black.

Just a visual example

Spoiler:

Ginoza went from light sea green to dark cyan, then to medium blue.

Color isnt related with emotions, it is just a visual measure of the mind state

[Sheba]

Mika LOVED Big Brother.

[heva la luna]

Hello! I followed this thread since the first season and finally decided to actively participate.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

@Geburah
The concern was why Mika's stress initially did not cause much of a shift in her CC. Normally, a person's CC should have spiked, but hers did not in episode 8. That could be due to her being asymptomatic or because she has complete faith in the system.

No way is she asymptomatic, at least it would not fit her boorish personality. She is the trope of the normal, maybe a bit smarter than average, human. All criminally asymptomatic we have seen so far had some pretty interesting personalities:Touma Kozaburo, Togane's mother and of course, the best of the best - Makishima. There's a high posibility Akane could turn out to be one but that move would cheapen the plot.

It would be easier for me I think Mika is totally trusting of the system or rather she she lacks the mental prowess to really comprehend the system and it's implication. She reminds me of those people who can learn pretty much anything and do well in school but without really grasping the concepts.

The soldier never the general. One last thing about her. Last episode, before she knew the truth, she covered her ears screaming "I don't want to know! ". I think it was a very smart reference to the three monkeys: one covering her eyes, another her ears and another her mouth. But enough about her.

I prefer to think of Akane, Makishima and Kougami like some sort of triangle, each vertex having an assigned value. That value has two components: intellect and emotional resilience. All three have exceptional intelligence. What separates them is emotion control.

Kougami (1) - the least valuable one - a very talented and smart human being but one who can't govern his emotions. No matter how literate he is, he lacks the ability to emotionally accept the books he reads and embrace their teachings. And most literature featured in the first season is somewhat tangent to the criminally asymptomatic. Kirito managed to develop a technique to clear the Hue, which means it can be done. If these two would meet... but that's another story.

Makishima (3) - the embodiment of "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul". The one who managed to transcend humanity. All his stats are already maxed out. His only flaw is that he is freaking dead!! (for now at least). A beautiful combination of nature and nurture.

Akane(2) - somewhere in between these two. I don't think it would be the best decision to make her either criminally asymptomatic or a latent criminal because we already have Kou and Shougo in these positions. She can be the best humanity has to offer. Someone with both high intelligence and sturdy moral fiber and probability the one who can actually succeed where Shougo failed.

The first season Akane and Makishima almost never came together but in the revised edition there was a very interesting conversation between them that Akane imagined, about the value of the human beings. For me, that was one of the most beautiful scenes of the anime. These two are very similar in the way they tackle the big questions but at the same time reach different answers. He is like Cain and she like Abel.

The way I see it, Akane is the sturdy, cockroach-like human being who has the potential to overcome almost anything you throw at her. That's why I say making her criminally asymptomatic would be the easy way out.

In a way she is the most inconvenient kind of being for Sybil. Kougami can be easily killed, Makishima assimilated but a trully vibrant and sentient human being has no place in Sybil. If all people were like her Sybil would have never come into existence.

And last, inferring from the fact that Sybil will not fall for now I think/hope that by the end of the season Sybil will somehow manage to evolve, that is, it will manage to judge itself.
The points that led me to this conclusion are:
-the ill will "Sybil" bears towards Akane at the moment is not the will of the entire Sybil. Rather it's only Sakuya's mother's, who was given reign over this case in virtue of her connection with Kirito. Because they implicitly thrust each other, the other brains don't supervise her. They must be really busy with the actual governing of the society.
-in one of the first episodes, nr.3 I think, the previous brain told Akane to watch out for Sakuya which clearly indicates at least consideration for Akane.
-it's absurd to think Sakuya's action to blacken the Hue of those previous inspectors had anything to do with Sybil's will. They had value for the system. Sakuya did it for himself. He probably felt spiteful after be regressed to a latent criminal.
-if his mother's will would have been absolute, Sakuya's psycho pass should have been Ok.
We must remember that even if as an entity Sybil is great, each brain has it's own idiosyncrasies. Touma kouzaburo, as an individual brain failed and I guess, Sakuya's mom will too.

This is too long. I'll end it with a question.

We know Makishima was pure white and his PP reached 0 when he killed, Sakuya the child was "pink", his PP in the 20's while killing and as a strech, Akane 's hue was powder blue, her PP also in the 20's. What do you think the color difference between the criminally asymptomatic represents?

[DMurphy]

The colour difference is an interesting one, because apart from being told that darker (/cloudier) colours are more criminal, and lighter (/clearer) colours are less criminal, we're never really told anything about what they represent. They must represent something, otherwise you could just use a greyscale.

If I had to guess, I'd say it represents prevailing emotions, but you'd think that would be mentioned: That someone would go 'Oh, his hue is dark red, he's experiencing intense rage and may attempt to commit a murder' or 'Oh, his hue is a murky viridian, he's likely to attempt to commit theft.' Nobody ever does.

[Geburah]

Remember that us as humans we can only discern about 60 kinds of grey and would be quite hard to measure on person hue exactly using that, colours are far easier to distinguish

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Geburah

Remember that us as humans we can only discern about 60 kinds of grey and would be quite hard to measure on person hue exactly using that, colours are far easier to distinguish

Thing is, we know from example that the actual crimeyness can only be determined by how dark or clear the colour is: Akane and Ginoza were both shades of blue, but Akane being a shade of blue was considered very good, while for Ginoza it was worse than being a shade of green.

So the colours must serve some other kind of purpose, rather than lying on a flat scale in which white is good and black is terrible, and then between them you have 'x colour = x point between the two'.

[Anh_Minh]

Maybe they favor cold colours. (So blue is better than blue + yellow.)

Or primary colors in general (as something "pure"). And would consider any move toward browns or gray to be bad.

[AkumaPrincess]

Originally Posted by atua

Can someone explain what happened in the burning house scene? Because the translation in that scene was kind of bad. Who are the people in the burning house? Was it the politicians & business people who benefited from the Season of Hell? And what's the deal with the illegal immigrants?

From what I got, the people who were burning were the disfigured illegal immigrants that were hidden under holos. The politicians have already been killed off via Dominator since they already had high CCs from disfiguring the immigrants.