Retro versus Modern Anime

[Sheba]

it didn't make sense to me how the modern anime library lacked them.

Yeah man, modern anime sucks. I miss the days of Monster, Gungrave, 5 centimeters a second, Black Lagoon, Ga Rei Zero, Moyashimon, Detroit Metal City, Clannad + After story, Bakemonogatari, Baccano! and Durarararara...

Oh wait!

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

why don't they just remake the old ones and everyone's happy ?!
.

Ask yourself if it would be a good idea to do the remake of the remake of the remake of Se7en or Pulp Fiction.
People can't rely on classics all the time and sometimes have to try to tell new stories, no matter how much bitter veterans whines about cliches.

[roriconfan]

It's not like remakes are a new thing. It just that most of them appeal to people of the era the original was made. I mean, they did remake Astro Boy and Gigantor but it felt too much like stuff a grampa would enjoy. They also remade Mazinger Z some years back and now Z stands for God Zeus... wtf? As for the first episode alone, it was so weird, it alienated me with all that melodramatic foreshadowing of the ENTIRE series. So remakes are not exactly the way to go... Unless they are a few years apart and the new version has more thing to add than the previews. FMA was successful, Haruhi was not, NGE... hm, I'll wait for the movies to finish; i'm stuck in the middle for now.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yeah man, modern anime sucks. I miss the days of Monster, Gungrave, 5 centimeters a second, Black Lagoon, Ga Rei Zero, Moyashimon, Detroit Metal City, Clannad + After story, Bakemonogatari, Baccano! and Durarararara...

Oh wait!

lol technically I can't be a veteran if the oldest entry in my list is Kenshin or Evangelion (whichever's older) I'm the ultimate form of modern anime boy. In fact most of (if not all the) titles you mentioned up here are top favourates, so you can take off your anti-veteran armour and be subjective .. if you look back to the past three years seasons' lists, how many Clannads, Gungraves, and Durarararas do you see ?

I have no experience whatsoever with classics I did not watch them and come complain about anime poeple not making good stuff anymore. I simply didn't get why weren't there enough fuedal era animes or where are all the humanoid androided cyborgs that flooded the eighties video stores' shelves. It's only fare that the modern anime boy gets what the classic fanboy got and made him the anime addict he was.

All I'm saying is .. I need to "appreciate" Gundam something (the one made in the 70's) ..

roriconfan: Astro Boy and Gigantor is a bit of a strech lol .. I was thinking late 80's early 90's

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

lol technically I can't be a veteran if the oldest entry in my list is Kenshin or Evangelion (whichever's older) I'm the ultimate form of modern anime boy. In fact most of (if not all the) titles you mentioned up here are top favourates, so you can take off your anti-veteran armour and be subjective .. if you look back to the past three years seasons' lists, how many Clannads, Gungraves, and Durarararas do you see ?

I can turn the argument around and challenge you to find the equivalent of Seikon no Qwazer or Queen's Blade or AkaneIro or 11eyes (as in mediocre anime that will be forgotten in the five next years) from the 1980s or the 1990s that 1. managed to not be filtered by foreign (american, asian or european) licensors. 2. Were not forgotten in the shameful corner of the mind of anime fans who had the misfortune to watch them.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I can turn the argument around and challenge you to find the equivalent of Seikon no Qwazer or Queen's Blade or AkaneIro or 11eyes (as in mediocre anime that will be forgotten in the five next years) from the 1980s or the 1990s that 1. managed to not be filtered by foreign (american, asian or european) licensors. 2. Were not forgotten in the shameful corner of the mind of anime fans who had the misfortune to watch them.

You insist on making this Retro vs Modern and it's not. I'm sure you are right and anime of the past decades included a fare amount of mediocreties (not sure this was your point .. blame it on my English) just like modern does, and maybe more, I wouldn't know .. However, the fact stands that

1- The amount of modern anime (well animated) with good story/plotline/depth/originality etc. is not sufficient and in most years a minority. Not saying that in earlier years the good/bad ratio was better, but rather asking, if we do know classics have a fare amount of well written good stories why not reanimate them and so we would have 5 good anime series in every year instead of 2 for instance, without actually having to go through the burden of creating new stories.

2- The modern industry apparently realized the saturation in some of the genres and sort of stopped (or hugely decreased) producing work that goes in those categories/genres .. perhaps in attempts to seek originality, or maybe because there's just no more room for writing one more Mecha story that wouldn't be either immitating Gundam zeta or stealing stuff from Gundam beta, or something .. eitherway, reanimating some of the good stuff (while entirely commiting to the original scenario) will not fall in the "WOULD YOU PUHLEEEEZ STOP REPEATING ANDROID MAID STORIES" category and yet give us - modern fans - a chance to appreciate the good old stuff.

On a side note though, if this actually WAS a Retro vs. Modern argument I would actually vote that in the time period of 1960s to 1990s we have a much richer material than what the past 10 years or so provided ..

Sorry about the lengthy post .. expression abilities

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

why not reanimate them ...without actually having to go through the burden of creating new stories.

That's a creatively horrible mindset. Stories can always be created and are always a product of their era. To put a stop to that by entering a self-regurgitating cycle of the past seems so insular.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Midonin

That's a creatively horrible mindset. Stories can always be created and are always a product of their era. To put a stop to that by entering a self-regurgitating cycle of the past seems so insular.

Only if you completely rely on them .. But if you dilute your era-derived work with that of the past you only get an even wider *insert some sophisticated artistic word for DVDs shelf*

In fact, by your own logic, to only have a taste and understanding of your own era - derived works, and to not be able to enjoy or at least experience those of different eras, and thus not appreciate them, is what I consider with all due respect "insular".

Never the less ..

...and are always a product of their era.

VERY good point.


EDIT: I just noticed where my poorly constructed sentence may have mislead you .. I did not mean reanimate the old ones instead of creating new ones, I meant to say reanimate the old ones and .. voila .. you have a couple more series that you didnt have to create.

[Triple_R]

With a tip of the hat to Samurai dono, one thing that might be nice is to re-explore (either through a straight visual remastering, or by extending the storyline, or by telling an alternate one) some of the old anime classics of bygone decades.

Something like a new or remastered/reaired Ranma ½ might feel like a breath of fresh air in the modern anime world, while still being accessible to those used to school-based comedy as Ranma ½ itself is one.

Perhaps a new Legend of the Galactic Heroes could recapture old audiences or invigorate brand new ones.

El Hazard is a personal old favorite of mine that I'd love to see have its story continued off from where it left off in its final anime, and perhaps have a more complete conclusion (same with Ranma ½, actually).


I certainly would want to see some fresh new fictional worlds explored each anime season, but with anime having created/adapted some marvelous fictional worlds decades ago with stories that one could easily build off of; maybe it would be worthwhile to re-explore these.

Also, some of the older classics might feel brand new with a fresh coat of paint on them, art style and animation wise. I think that most animes 15 years old or less probably can't be improved all that much at a purely visual level, but many older than that almost certainly could.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

EDIT: I just noticed where my poorly constructed sentence may have mislead you .. I did not mean reanimate the old ones instead of creating new ones, I meant to say reanimate the old ones and .. voila .. you have a couple more series that you didnt have to create.

Except "didn't have to create" was the thing I took issue with in the first place. That sounds like such a condemnation of imagination, of creativity, of everything that I believe is essential as a creator of fiction. It's one of the worst things a person could say in the entertainment industry, and to say that it's a solution is even worse.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Midonin

Except "didn't have to create" was the thing I took issue with in the first place. That sounds like such a condemnation of imagination, of creativity, of everything that I believe is essential as a creator of fiction. It's one of the worst things a person could say in the entertainment industry, and to say that it's a solution is even worse.

I'm sorry I didn't understand wether or not you STILL have a problem. In case you do, then ..

You are absolutely correct. If the point of reanimating was to relieve the creators from creating new fiction, then everything you said in your last 2 posts is very much true. However, what we are discussing here, is that the modern anime fan - who can't get through art/animation of pre 90's anime - has the right to watch and appreciate all the good stuff he missed, only with quality that enables him to. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With a tip of the hat to Samurai dono....

Thank you.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

I'm sorry I didn't understand wether or not you STILL have a problem. In case you do, then ..

You are absolutely correct. If the point of reanimating was to relieve the creators from creating new fiction, then everything you said in your last 2 posts is very much true. However, what we are discussing here, is that the modern anime fan - who can't get through art/animation of pre 90's anime - has the right to watch and appreciate all the good stuff he missed, only with quality that enables him to. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The thing is that just because it is remade it is not guaranteed that it will be done right, and capture the essence of the original for the veterans. Eva is doing it right, Hokuto no Ken was hit or miss depending on the movie or the OAV but more often miss (hokuto no Ken Zero, Yuria Gaiden) than hit (Toki Den). In the case of the HnK, did it truly sparkled a rise of interest from western anime fans to check out the manga or the old animated TV series? Last time I checked, it did not.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The thing is that just because it is remade it is not guaranteed that it will be done right, and capture the essence of the original for the veterans. Eva is doing it right, Hokuto no Ken was hit or miss depending on the movie or the OAV but more often miss (hokuto no Ken Zero, Yuria Gaiden) than hit (Toki Den). In the case of the HnK, did it truly sparkled a rise of interest from western anime fans to check out the manga or the old animated TV series? Last time I checked, it did not.

I know a number of Evangelion fans who have argued that Rebuild does not capture the spirit of the original and are just the anime equivalent of Hollywood action flicks.

I personally like the fact that Rebuild seems to be a more... "positive" take on the Evangelion storyline. Which probably sounds a little strange coming from a guy who outright admits to loving sad anime, but I didn't find the original Eva sad so much as bleak.

[Sander RX]

You know what industry had in the 80's that it lacks today?Greater financial security,that's what.If Japan was still in it's 80's economical bubble,maybe money would get flung at more risky things.Maybe things like Studio 4C's Global Astroliner would be made into series.

Damn you,crisis!Damn you to hell!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I know a number of Evangelion fans who have argued that Rebuild does not capture the spirit of the original and are just the anime equivalent of Hollywood action flicks.

I personally like the fact that Rebuild seems to be a more... "positive" take on the Evangelion storyline. Which probably sounds a little strange coming from a guy who outright admits to loving sad anime, but I didn't find the original Eva sad so much as bleak.

Yeah, capture of the essence is hardly something that can be gotten right. My main gripe with remakes nowadays is that more often than not, the guys just don't put enough effort in the remake (EVA is being more an exception than the rule). I would not exagerrate if I say that remakes such as HnK, Cobra or Saint Seiya are still plagued with having as much still shots as they did in their previous incarnations.

In an age where computers are supposed to ease it up a bit, that is sort of jarring, and this is not because your close-ups are more detailed than the average of today that you will conquer a new public. Ok, I get that they want to cash in the nostalgia, but this just could not work alone.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The thing is that just because it is remade it is not guaranteed that it will be done right, and capture the essence of the original for the veterans.

Not arguing but genuinely asking; will this still be the case if the remakes were made with a 100% commitment to the original script? (I'm sorry I don't know the right way of phrasing it) .. In other words, would shows lose thier essence if they were "reanimated" instead of "remade" ?

Originally Posted by Sander RX

You know what industry had in the 80's that it lacks today?Greater financial security,that's what.If Japan was still in it's 80's economical bubble,maybe money would get flung at more risky things.Maybe things like Studio 4C's Global Astroliner would be made into series.

Damn you,crisis!Damn you to hell!

lol +1

I'll have to agree with you that nowadays there's so much less room for risk taking than there was in the 80's .. and the audiance also is a lot more *insert criticizing adjective* than they were back then.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

Not arguing but genuinely asking; will this still be the case if the remakes were made with a 100% commitment to the original script? (I'm sorry I don't know the right way of phrasing it) .. In other words, would shows lose thier essence if they were "reanimated" instead of "remade" ?

.

You just don't get it. It's not just a matter of animation, it is a matter of the sum of all parts, directing, scripting, music and voice acting (or acting in the case of live medias), this is why The Hitcher 2007 could never compare to 1986 version, the original movie was shot in a particular mood in a particular time, and it is therefore highly difficult to capture the feel of the original. The original Evangelion, according to Anno, was made when he was at the lowest point of his life, now you compare them to the remakes that are made when he got better, the difference in atmosphere, tone and overall feeling are quite telling.

And I still think that this suggested cycle of remakes will be doing more harm than good, not every aspiring vampire story writers want to redo Twilight or copy it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sheba

You just don't get it. It's not just a matter of animation, it is a matter of the sum of all parts, directing, scripting, music and voice acting (or acting in the case of live medias), this is why The Hitcher 2007 could never compare to 1986 version, the original movie was shot in a particular mood in a particular time, and it is therefore highly difficult to capture the feel of the original. The original Evangelion, according to Anno, was made when he was at the lowest point of his life, now you compare them to the remakes that are made when he got better, the difference in atmosphere, tone and overall feeling are quite telling.

That doesn't necessarily make them worse, though.

In fact, many may prefer the feeling of the Evangelion remake.

And I still think that this suggested cycle of remakes will be doing more harm than good, not every aspiring vampire story writers want to redo Twilight or copy it.

I disagree, and I also find your Twilight reference rather ironic given the context.

The anime of today has its own sorts of highly popular but very polarizing "Twilights". Now, I'm certainly not saying that these "Twilight" animes are bad; some of them I like myself; but they're not for everyone, or even every anime fan. Many of them probably won't appeal to the same people who would like a Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

Part of the reason why I see room for remakes and/or story extensions off of older anime is because these animes would offer something a fair bit different to those who are not satisfied with the modern Twilights of anime.

I think of remaking older classic animes as being much more akin to remaking classic traditional vampire stories in the age of Twilight for people who prefer the classic traditional vampire stories to Twilight, if you catch my analogy.

[Samurai dono]

The strange thing, though, is that in the small period of time I spent lurking in this forum I noticed that Sheba had taken on the job of standing up for veterans and giving them such a hard time .. Yet in this particular topic he's taking an unusual veteran-stance .. So what if the remake didn't catch the essence and what if the classic fans didn't take a liking to the remake .. In fact even if you're Eva analogy was correct (I happen to be one of the poeple who got obsessed with the show and were shocked with how it went down hill in its 2nd half) but even if the remake wasn't a success in the original fans' view, won't they always have the original? and won't the veterans always have the actual classic?

I'm in no place to put my self as an example since I'm not a proper Gundam fan and I apologize to them in advance, but I watched both SEED and Denstiny, and even though I have no interest in mecha whatsoever I thought the show was brilliant in every way other than the art lol .. then 00 came in and as a mecha show I thought it was alright but as a Gundam sequel I thought it failed (I repeat my apology) .. but then .. so what if it did .. there will always be 0079 zeta wing and SEED .. new age modern anime fans can enjoy 00 and I can enjoy the classics .. why should I stand in the way of that .. it's not like we're preserving art and protecting its identity .. anime is a mere form of entertainment.

I have to say though .. I was hesitant wether or not I should reply because I actually think what you said about remakes is in most cases true .. as you went on naming failed examples I also remembered a few that I had encountered .. and even though I agree with TripleR about your Twilight analogy, your Hitcher example holds true, and I'm afraid if akira was reanimated it's probably gonna end up being CANAAN or something .. but then, it shouldn't stop poeple from trying .. in the same way that winter 2011 is probably gonna bring us the millionth harem school moe show, only because the millionth writer wanted to take a shot at it too ..

Now THAT'S a lengthy post lol

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Samurai dono

The strange thing, though, is that in the small period of time I spent lurking in this forum I noticed that Sheba had taken on the job of standing up for veterans and giving them such a hard time ..

Who do you call veterans? Those whose first anime was Dragon Ball and whose fandom started after 1995 and call themselves veterans or those from before?

I can say that I can be classified as a veteran, having started watching them while the average user of this forum was not even born. However, there is always someone who is in the hobby since way longer than us. In this forum, those are the likes of Vexx and Seiji-sensei.

But do YOU see them opening topics about how anime were much better when it was all about Astro Boy, Candy Candy and World's Masterpiece Theater? They are veterans I am okay with.

Those I am not okay with and DO stand against are those who whines a little too much and not even bother to look harder and find the little gems that they have missed while sitting on their benches and moaned about how times used to be better. Perhaps you would not see me so much if they did not cry so much.

Given the history of french anime fandom, I DO know what it is to be saturated with rubbish with the few hits (80s- early 90s) and I also know how it is when anime nearly fades out of television because of a ridiculous morale crusade from parents and local television creative lobbies (late 90s- early 2000s), where the ONLY anime we had gotten from 1997 to 2001 was f*cking Pokemon, and at that point, the airing of CCS in 2001 was a breath of fresh air.

And I pray that it will never happen to your area.

[fukarming]

I really don't understand what all the argument are for retro vs modern anime after reading all the posts.

1. There are alot more anime produce every season now compare to 20-30 years ago.

2. It is impossible to call something a classic unless it can stand against the flow of time, also it is possible to see how a certain anime influence the anime industry until at least 5-10 years from the said anime is aired.

3. Compare to 20 years ago, people appreciate anime differently.

4. Compare to 20 years ago, the strategy of airing anime are very different.

Let me elaborate:

1. I think someone already do a "not so analytical" analysis of anime back in the days, and did not found a significant increase in the percentage of memorable anime back in the days.

2. The original gundam is a classic, but if you watched it in 2010, you will found the plot boring as hell, but you cannot deny its classic status because it revolutionize the mecha anime genre. An anime aired in 2010 cannot be considered equal to like the original gundam because it has not been "aged".

3. I believe that is the main point of my argument: people watch things differently 20-30 years ago. Char Aznable is probably the most popular character in the gundam franchise of all time. However, if you dissect his actions in the original trilogy, you will find that he is not so great. He has no political wisdom whatsoever and make plenty of stupid mistakes in his life that make little sense at all. People back in the days do not criticize character and plot flaws like Char. Audience nowadays, however, love to analyze (and over analyze) characters and if there are plot holes (similar to those related to Char) they will bash the show in pieces, thus it is alot more difficult to have a classic in modern time compare to 20-30 years ago.

4. Back in the days, anime are much longer than it is nowadays. So it has the tendencies to drag with fillers (enemy of the week), but also have more time to develop its characters. In a filler episode back in the days, there may be 20 min of forgettable stuff and only 5 min of character development. After 50+ episodes, the character development adds up and the character become complete. When you think of the show 10 years later, you tend to forget the bad dragging part and only remember how good the character developed. Nowadays most anime are only 13/26 episodes and thus they do not have the luxury to take their time to complete their character, not to mention the bias that when you watch something for so long, you tend to grow and stick to the character even though you know the show has gone downhill.


Also, about remake, I don't think there are any remake that can surpass the original significantly. If they follow the main plot exactly, then the surprise factor is lost and thus people will like the older version better. If they change the plot, because of nostalgic factors, audience will always think the old plot better than the new ones (for me, that is the case of the zeta gundam remake. I cannot believe they change the ending in the movie like that and I think the TV ending is better)


For those who claim anime producers should make more remake, I believe they would be disappointed. Use LOGH as an example, it is a classic, but I believe it will be picked apart if it is aired nowadays. My basis is that Tytania is written from the same author from a similar time and aired in 2008 and it is a non-factor. Plotwise it is from the same author under the similar background so if Tytania cannot produce a stir in the 2000s, I doubt LOGH can be different significantly.