End of an Era: Fall of Communism in Europe

[Dreamtale]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Also, Joe forgot to tell you guys that yeah, the Red Army fought with tons of US-made equipment. In his own words, "the war was fought with Soviet lives, but American money."

Yare Yare... You figured this yourself or someone gave a hint to you?

[yezhanquan]

Er no. I remember reading an intro written by Paul Kennedy for a WWII book. The line was in there.

But, Joe was adamant that the only Allied support he would recognise was the opening of the second front in France. Everything else, no matter how helpful, was written off.

[Dreamtale]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Er no. I remember reading an intro written by Paul Kennedy for a WWII book. The line was in there.

Why i'm not surprised?

Early interpretations of WW2 history by western historians/politicians/etc. was exact like you wrote. But indeed foreign money helped us, yeah, but not so much! In fact, USSR won WW2 on it's own. Of course, we cannot know what would happen if west front failed from the very begining, but...

[yezhanquan]

Er no. That book wasn't very old (and neither is Paul. He's not even 70 yet). Also, don't really appreciate the smiley. Personally, I'll put the ratio at 65% Soviet, 35% American. 1/3: Not too insignificant, but you guys still managed to have more than half the total output.

It was both fronts which did Hitler in. Sealion could not go ahead as planned, so he decided to look east. And there is just that adventure in the Balkans and Greece involving Italy. The old speculation about Barbarossa being carried out 6 weeks earlier...

Look: not all historians are affected by the Cold War hysteria. Their writing is hampered by denial to Soviet sources for that other side of the story. There used to be access for a few years in the 90s, but it seems to be locked down again.

[Dreamtale]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Personally, I'll put the ratio at 65% Soviet 35% American. 1/3: Not too insignificant.

That's more close to the truth.

Look: not all historians are affected by the Cold War hysteria. Their writing is hampered by denial to Soviet sources for that other side of the story. There used to be access for a few years in the 90s, but it seems to be locked down again

Never heard about... What are so mysterious "soviet sources" that were hidden? Maybe some _internal_ documents, yeah. But i don't think really they can influence on the _whole_ picture of war.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Well, this goes into speculation because Lenin died early, and Stalin pushed all possible opponents out in due time. However, do remember that collectivization is a disaster, especially in the Ukraine. Ol' Mr. D. decided that starving peasant opponents is one way to go. Also, Joe forgot to tell you guys that yeah, the Red Army fought with tons of US-made equipment. In his own words, "the war was fought with Soviet lives, but American money."

Besides, 1917 wasn't the lowest point yet. Try 1921, after some years of the Civil War.

Oh well at least this's more relevant than the previous discussion...

About the bold line, i have to oppose it through. Considering the fighting in Western Front is much less intense, but US aided to Britain 3 times as much comparing to the Soviet. If the bold line is true, then "the war was fought with Soviet, Britain and France lives using US money" would be more accurate.....

Unless you are using it loosely about the event where the Third Reich borrowed US banks money which eventually was used to start the war and it results in the lost of Soviet lives...... (as "the major money used for the war was from US, and the major lives lost in the war was in Soviet"). But then it would a little bit extreme then....

[yezhanquan]

The Kremlin archives. That's what a lot of my professors want. Those internal memos where the writer and reader needed to get the truth across in order for things to be done. Who knows, maybe they have been lost already. Besides WWII, they would be interested to know what was being ordered during the Spanish Civil War years.

@rising: That quote was from ol' Joe. So, add in the required prejudices. Also, given the extent of Soviet deaths, I personally will take your second suggestion.

[Dreamtale]

I can argue. Lurk for example how many tanks/riffles/etc was manufactured during war perios in USSR! Yeah, we cannot nowadays express this in money, because back there work of soviet people was free in some meaning, meantime that every US bullet had his cost. That proofs only that amount of money (very disputable subject btw) is not the main factor of victory!

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Er no. That book wasn't very old (and neither is Paul. He's not even 70 yet). Also, don't really appreciate the smiley. Personally, I'll put the ratio at 65% Soviet, 35% American. 1/3: Not too insignificant, but you guys still managed to have more than half the total output.

Can have a more accurate estimate like this:
- the total GDP of Soviet during the war (from 1938 to 1945) is 2785 billions dollars (in 1990 value)
- the total aids US aided SOviet is 11.3 billions (in 1945 value ) or roughly 158 billions (in 2007 value)

Considering the inflation of US dollar from 1990 to 2007, we can say the aid from US to Soviet in the whole war will less than 5.5% (around 2.5-5.5%) of Soviet GDP. I knows it's much lower than your estimation, but nearly 5% in aid is pretty large, especially during crucial time as war.

[Dreamtale]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Can have a more accurate estimate like this:
- the total GDP of Soviet during the war (from 1938 to 1945) is 2785 billions dollars (in 1990 value)
- the total aid US aid SOviet is 11.3 billions (in 1945 value ) or roughly 158 billions (in 2007 value)

Considering the inflation of US dollar from 1990 to 2007, we can say the aid from US to Soviet will less than 5.5% (around 2.5-5.5%) of Soviet GDP. I knows it's much lower than your estimation, but 5% in aid is pretty large, especially during crucial time as war.

thnx, Cap! You proved my words with numbers

[yezhanquan]

Not to mention that it wasn't exactly easy to send this 5% to the Union.

[synaesthetic]

Political (and religious) threads should be banned from AS forums. Nothing comes of them but lots and lots of pissed off people, troll posts and a few poor pundits trying valiantly to correct misconceptions on both sides, but failing epically.

I've got little to say about Russia since I know little and have never been there, when there are people here who are citizens of the nation. I'll not stick my foot in my mouth there.

But the more socialist a society gets, the more power you must give to the government and take away from the individual. Considering the track record of our government here in the US, I'm really flabbergasted that anyone trusts those liars and thieves with feeding the dog, much less giving them that kind of power.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Political (and religious) threads should be banned from AS forums. Nothing comes of them but lots and lots of pissed off people, troll posts and a few poor pundits trying valiantly to correct misconceptions on both sides, but failing epically.

I wholesomely agree, though if you read the forum rules...I believe it's there. It's just hard to control because of its level of entertainment. My recent argument just became a flame war---I won't deny, I do find it sometimes entertaining(especially amidst boredom) but it only breeds hatred and nothing more.

I've got little to say about Russia since I know little and have never been there, when there are people here who are citizens of the nation. I'll not stick my foot in my mouth there.

But the more socialist a society gets, the more power you must give to the government and take away from the individual. Considering the track record of our government here in the US, I'm really flabbergasted that anyone trusts those liars and thieves with feeding the dog, much less giving them that kind of power.

I think Outside Intrusions are critically important. What affects one part of the world affects the others.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Not to mention that it wasn't exactly easy to send this 5% to the Union.

After reading what all of you have written, I am completely lost like HnG's Isumi. But there is a question I like to ask......what about Operation Cyclone? How much of an effect has it on the Ruble and USD?

[yezhanquan]

Basically, try reading up on US-Soviet diplomatic exchanges between 1942-44. From the time of the Tehran Conference, Stalin insisted that the second front in the West be opened ASAP. He didn't (and really couldn't) accept that there were difficulties in doing so. To appease Stalin, FDR did extend the Lend-Lease scheme to the Union. The value of the aid is stated to be about 5% of USSR GDP by one in this thread, but I just remembered that the Union didn't exactly left their eastern frontiers unmanned either.

Regardless, quite a bit of American lives were lost delivering the goods to the Union, and it remains a fact that ol' Joe didn't mention a word of it to the Soviet people.

I guess my main point is this: Given a choice, I would definitely NOT want to be at the Russian Front during the war. Heck, I would take my chance alongside the Chinese against the Japanese.

[autobachs]

Throughout the cold war we provided the bulk of the forces and spending to counter the Soviets, and in return we got a rubber stamp from Europe (and elsewhere) where foreign policy was concerned. Europe got to explore their socialist dreams without a significant defense budget at home. Now, not so much. We can still pull NATO together for the occasional this or that but how much longer?
Since now they all say "Fuck You USA" anyway, the emotional response goes hand in hand with the economic promise letting them see a bit more reality of what it means to exist in an unfirendly world without "dirty American intervention."
Cut a deal with the assholes in the ME and Russia and say, treat us right and we don't give a fuck -- we'll be happy to be your best trading partner -- treat us wrong and see what happens, and do what you want in Europe.

Now that cold war's over:

1. Let our european economic competitors spend more GDP on self defense
2. Move positive local basing economy back to the US (keep the money at home)
3. Lower operational costs (maybe, don't know the deals we cut overseas)

[yezhanquan]

You forgot that there are still plenty of US policy-makers who want those overseas bases to remain. Besides, any country worth trading now trades with anyone in the world. My country trades with Burma, and is looking at expanding ties with the Middle East. It's business.

Besides, you equate US interests with European interests. While they may be similar in some aspects, they are not the same can of worms.

[TinyRedLeaf]

(PHOTO: Associated Press)

This was how the Wall came down...

By Jonathan Eyal
Straits Times Europe Bureau

The Berlin Wall came tumbling down 20 years ago on Nov 9, partly as the result of a clerical blunder.

SHIFTS of great historic importance are often triggered by seemingly banal events. So it was with the fall of the Berlin Wall, which actually started as a bureaucratic mistake.

By the summer of 1989, the government of East Germany was faced with a rising tide of demonstrations. Pressure grew as neighbouring communist countries like Hungary and Poland began relaxing political controls and border restrictions.

East Germany's rulers hit upon a novel idea: On Nov 9, 1989, it decided to make it easier for some of its citizens to leave directly for the West. It was merely to be a short-time exception to existing border controls, in the hope that this would rid them of the most troublesome dissidents, who were sure to flee westwards.

But the hapless East German official dispatched to announce this decision did not read his briefing papers. So, when asked by a journalist whether this meant that anyone could cross the wall, he mumbled: "Yes, immediately, without delay."

It was one of the 20th century's most significant clerical blunders.

Almost instantly, vast crowds converged on the wall, determined to exercise their supposed right to travel. Confused border guards frantically appealed to their superiors for instructions on what they should do, but no order ever came. So, within hours, the wall was simply trampled underfoot.

As evening fell, thousands of youngsters were joining hands in dance across the border, an act which just 24 hours earlier would have meant certain death. The world rightly remembers this as the critical moment when the Cold War ended.

- THE STRAITS TIMES

The opening of the Wall

Big improvements after years of scarcity

By Ching Cheong
Senior Writer

THE long queues are still around. But unlike 20 years ago, when housewives in eastern bloc states stood in line to get their hands on scarce basic necessities, the queues these days are of paying customers in brightly lit, well-stocked hypermarkets.

A retired journalist in Warsaw, Ms Maria Kruczkowska, probably spoke for many Polish people when she told The Straits Times: "This is one of the biggest improvements compared with pre-1989 days."

Indeed, Russia and its former East European allies appear to have weathered well the transition following the implosion of the Soviet bloc — and most of them have made an impressive recovery. In 2005, for the first time, the whole region registered average growth of about 5 per cent.

- THE STRAITS TIMES

In eastern Europe, people pine for socialism

Belene, Bulgaria (Nov 8): Twenty years after the fall of communism, Belene is largely forgotten — only a small marble plaque tells its horrific story as a communist-era death camp. Yet nostalgia for the past is growing in the small Balkan country and across the former Soviet bloc.

Capitalism's failure to lift living standards, impose the rule of law and tame flourishing corruption and nepotism have given way to fond memories of the times when the jobless rate was zero, food was cheap and social safety was high.

"(The bad) things have been forgotten," said Mr Rumen Petkov, 42, a former guard now clerk at the only prison still functioning on the Persin island. "The nostalgia is palpable, particularly among the elderly," he said, in front of the crumbling buildings of another old jail opened on the site after the camp was shut in 1959. The communists imprisoned dozens of ethnic Turks here in the 1980s when they refused to change their names to Bulgarian.

Some young people in the impoverished town of Belene, linked to the island with a pontoon bridge, also reminisce. "We lived better in the past," said Anelia Beeva, 31. "We went on holidays to the coast and the mountains; there were plenty of clothes, shoes, food. And, now, the biggest chunk of our incomes is spent on food. People with university degrees are unemployed and many go abroad."

- REUTERS

The glow of democracy fades in eastern Europe

Public enthusiasm for democracy and capitalism is waning in many former communist countries.

THE fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989 marked the beginning of the end of communism in Europe and, for many, the dawn of a new, democratic era. Two decades later, however, enthusiasm for democracy and capitalism east of the former Iron Curtain appears to have waned considerably.

A new poll shows that support for multi-party political systems has now fallen drastically, especially in poorer countries such as Ukraine and Lithuania. And in every country, fewer people now approve of the change to a free-market economy. The belief that the changes have benefited business and political elites far more than ordinary people is widespread.

- THE ECONOMIST.COM

[LeoXiao]

Oh right, that was twenty years ago. Wow.