Why is Ambition evil in anime?

[Guernsey]

I have a question about how in shonen, the heroes have something or someone to protect and succeeds against the bad guy who is either doing it for simple ambition. following the 'wrong 'ideal that usually entails world domination and even that he as no friedns. I don't whjether it has any basis in Japanese culture in general but usually in shonen that if the hero wants to be stronger, he has to have something to protect but does it have to do with Japan solely or is it a truth in television. Hollywood seems to teach that Ambition is Evil especially in Japan where you have concepts like Nakama and various social customs that seem to gear towards collectivism (forgive if it is inaccurate), why is ambition frowned upon where in a tale of fighting for one's family or friends?

[npcomplete]

So I'm gonna disagree a little bit. I don't think it's portrayed as "evil" per se. I see ambition purely for self gratification portrayed as.. well, selfish.

It might be stronger in Japan, but it's definitely not a uniquely Japanese philosophy. I think there's already a nice balance already portrayed in anime between self interest and self sacrifice. Usually ambition of the self-interest kind is actually portrayed positively when its effects are limited to ones self, such as encouraging a character to become stronger, more self-sufficient, or more individualistic. But when its scope is large, that's where its mostly shown to have negative effects, sometimes explicitly, and sometimes in the form of unintended consequences where the protagonist might find out the hard way.

[othera]

I've wondered this to, If you've seen the movie swordfish, The "bad" guy basically wants to rob the banks to buy nukes, Kill major terrorists, Save world. Robs, Then uses it to murder... But saves lives.

I can't think of any anime examples but
If you do a bad thing(rob, murder) and it has a good outcome(save hundreds+ lives) are you a bad person? I honestly don't know, Personally I have always thought that well, 1 life equals 1 life. Sacrificing 1 life to save 2 people means you have saved a person, You would have to be good if you saved someone right? :/

If you were given the choice to cure the entire world of cancer, But you would first have to murder 10 people, Would you take it? As great as that deal sounds, Most people say no. I'd take the deal even if it meant later being put on death sentence myself(11 lives to save millions is a bargain if you ask me)

With lesser things, I'd agree with npcomplete, Usually it's just selfish.

[npal]

Originally Posted by othera

I've wondered this to, If you've seen the movie swordfish, The "bad" guy basically wants to rob the banks to buy nukes, Kill major terrorists, Save world. Robs, Then uses it to murder... But saves lives.

I can't think of any anime examples but
If you do a bad thing(rob, murder) and it has a good outcome(save hundreds+ lives) are you a bad person? I honestly don't know, Personally I have always thought that well, 1 life equals 1 life. Sacrificing 1 life to save 2 people means you have saved a person, You would have to be good if you saved someone right? :/

If you were given the choice to cure the entire world of cancer, But you would first have to murder 10 people, Would you take it? As great as that deal sounds, Most people say no. I'd take the deal even if it meant later being put on death sentence myself(11 lives to save millions is a bargain if you ask me)

With lesser things, I'd agree with npcomplete, Usually it's just selfish.

You can always have someone sacrifice your life without your consent to save 2. Or does the will to decide for yourself and value your own life as well as everyone else's automatically makes you the bad guy for not wanted to be sacrificed just because someone else decided that for you?

On topic, the best you can see in anime is the best you can see in movies. The cliche of a tormented villain, who became a villain because X. Most of the time they know exactly what they're doing. These villains usually only seek to explain their pattern of thought, not edify themselves. Of course, not having an example ready isn't nice. All villains that come to mind had selfish reasons to do whatever, but maybe that's just me and the anime I watched recently. But it's not a Japan thing only.

[DJLowrider]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

I have a question about how in shonen, the heroes have something or someone to protect and succeeds against the bad guy who is either doing it for simple ambition. following the 'wrong 'ideal that usually entails world domination and even that he as no friedns. I don't whjether it has any basis in Japanese culture in general but usually in shonen that if the hero wants to be stronger, he has to have something to protect but does it have to do with Japan solely or is it a truth in television. Hollywood seems to teach that Ambition is Evil especially in Japan where you have concepts like Nakama and various social customs that seem to gear towards collectivism (forgive if it is inaccurate), why is ambition frowned upon where in a tale of fighting for one's family or friends?

I wouldn't blanket all shounen anime as being like that. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is basically the exact opposite of this and is very much a shounen show. It breaks down like this:

Spoiler for Basic plot spoilers for TTGL:

The heroes of the series are fighting the Beastmen and Lord Genome based on their ambition to not be forced to live underground anymore, not realizing that they were forced into that life by Genome himself 1,000 years ago in an attempt to protect humanity from being eradicated by the Anti-Spiral. So in essence here it's the people with ambition who have banded together against the one who believes in what he is doing because it has kept humanity alive and safe for a millennium.

Not only that, but in TTGL having ambition (and the belief in oneself to achieve said ambition) is at the core of Spiral Power and is what makes Simon and everyone else capable of overcoming ridiculous odds time and again.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

Usually ambition of the self-interest kind is actually portrayed positively when its effects are limited to ones self, such as encouraging a character to become stronger, more self-sufficient, or more individualistic. But when its scope is large, that's where its mostly shown to have negative effects, sometimes explicitly, and sometimes in the form of unintended consequences where the protagonist might find out the hard way.

This. The pure-bred shounen series One Piece even presents ambition as a power (覇気) that is possessed only by well-grounded individuals who are aware of their self and their place in the universe.

[othera]

Originally Posted by npal

You can always have someone sacrifice your life without your consent to save 2. Or does the will to decide for yourself and value your own life as well as everyone else's automatically makes you the bad guy for not wanted to be sacrificed just because someone else decided that for you?

Well I wasn't thinking, I used the word murder, And murdering yourself is well, Suicide.

But yes that would work : d

[npal]

Originally Posted by othera

Well I wasn't thinking, I used the word murder, And murdering yourself is well, Suicide.

But yes that would work : d

O_o Not sure I understood the answer... So, if you were one of those 10 people needed to be killed for millions to be saved, and they just killed you without asking, it'd be ok?

[Shadow Kira01]

Simple because those with ambitions are usually the ones who instigates wars and most people including myself hates war. I know.. To people who live and grew up in other nations may most likely see this perspective of mine as foolish but I do not care.

There are nations who teaches their people to instigate war and make them ambitious but I won't comment on that as it is irrelevant to this issue itself.

[othera]

Originally Posted by npal

O_o Not sure I understood the answer... So, if you were one of those 10 people needed to be killed for millions to be saved, and they just killed you without asking, it'd be ok?

Yeah, I've always been the 1 to think that I would without a second thought risk my life, If it was to save something more important.
As long as it doesn't seem like a stupid decision, And is atleast almost guaranteed to work, Of course I'd try to come up with a way that wouldn't involve me dying.

[BetoJR]

And who guarantees it will work? Is the person pulling the trigger/injecting the poison/tying the knot/whatever, truly infallible? If not, then this whole notion is pointless, I think.

[npal]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And who guarantees it will work? Is the person pulling the trigger/injecting the poison/tying the knot/whatever, truly infallible? If not, then this whole notion is pointless, I think.

Not to mention that willing to sacrifice yourself is vastly different than willing to sacrifice other people.

[BetoJR]

There's that, as well.

[Diazt3r]

usually ambition is portrayed as what initially is well intended becomes a selfish act, leads to corruption, then tragedy or redemption of the hero

[animeboy12]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[npal]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I never really liked that quote. I mean, most walk down that cause of ill intentions Although it does apply to the self-righteous that go too far I suppose.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Diazt3r

usually ambition is portrayed as what initially is well intended becomes a selfish act, leads to corruption, then tragedy or redemption of the hero

Originally Posted by animeboy12

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

My reach is global
My tower secure
My cause is noble
My power is pure

[danin8r44]

I've never seen ambition portrayed as evil or bad in any manga/anime. Many protagonists even of shounen anime have high ambitions like Naruto. He wants to be the leader of his village and to stamp out war, not exactly a small ambition.

What I see being portrayed as evil is a lust for or corruption by power. That or the ambition that the villain had was for evil to begin with.

[SeedFreedom]

Its not usually so much as ambition that they are demonizing, but more greed or recklessness. However i also think this is part of the grand change over to bring all bad guys into the grey. The movie industry saw people reacted well to the anti-hero, or the grey villian.They decided to cash in on this and cut out the bad guy and give them all some sort of saving reasoning that makes their original intentions not so evil.

The best example i can remember is Doc Ock in Spiderman 2. In the comic books he pretty much went crazy and is pretty much just evil. In the movie, its all the arms fault.

Ironically some of the most liked villains are now the pure psychopaths/just plain evil. the Green Goblin, Venom, Joker.

Well, that my two cents.

[npcomplete]

Yeah I think that's the inevitable evolution of entertainment since life itself is not black and white. Everyone has a little devil on one shoulder and a little a angel on the other. This is one of the aspects I enjoy in anime.