To Aru Majutsu no Index - Light Novel - Power Level Discussion [Archive]

dniv

2013-06-14, 11:02

And charts made on who you think might be more powerful in the future are better than the current relative strengths?

On Birdway: She didn't do more than anyone else in Volume 22 when she helped out with the destruction of the Golden Arms. She even states her dibeief that she's helping o save the Earth.

Rikou was used as a spotter to correct Mugino's aim, and that's it.

As for Touma. Two things. The first is that we have no idea how Touma's control of the IT works. To say Touma should be higher than it is weird when, in all other ways, Touma is inferior to it. The way it was described, it could destroy the sun. Can Touma do anything so impressive? No.

The second is this "The Special Border donates who's general strength can not be measured accurately. The placement of said character's on this chart is for purely aesthetic value."

Guess who is in the Special Border?

Next time, read the fucking Legend.

You're being really rude. I don't feel like arguing.

P.S. I did read the legend.

P.P.S. about Birdway... (the actual truth) NT 6 reveals that she is a monster that could beat a saint through her power and skill even if she couldn't beat them head on. If you are treating power level as unrelated to your natural abilities, like saying that Seria= level 0 power... then I would agree with the fact that she isn't that strong. Otherwise, I disagree.

In the case of Volume 22: she said that she wasn't saving the world to be good, she was saving it to take control of it for herself and her cabal. That's definitely what I got out of it. That's very different from saying I'm too weak to handle it. She obviously wasn't scared at all in that situation... Just saying... She was saying her intentions weren't good: she was making an ironic joke. This is definitely what I interpreted it as saying. I guess you might also be theoretically able to interpret it the other way, but I don't see it/understand it that way.

P.P.P.S. It's a good chart. I was saying it could be improved. It's an opinion. I was giving some critical feedback. Is that a problem? People accomplish things, making better charts, by taking critical feedback and doing something about it... just saying. You work and you work to get results... like Levinia Birdway. Otherwise, a person/character is weak.

P.P.P.P.S. (if you're saying Touma's power isn't his own ability, then......... that's silly...) his power is his ability... Touma can use IB... so his power is the power of IB... what about that isn't obvious?... Every aspect of IB is part of Touma's power. In terms of Gemstones, their abilities are their own powers. Touma is like that even if he is technically a special case. I guess it's still too early to speculate, but you should be able to see why I wouldn't think that you should separate Touma and the thing inside his right hand that is stored within Imagine Breaker at this point anyway... It's like saying that Accelerator is as strong as he would be if he were brain damaged or if he didn't have the sisters network to help him... he has those things, so why care about whether or not he wouldn't have that ability... Touma's strength right now should be the limit of his ability. The thing inside IB activates without leaving Touma's hand. It just expands. This makes me consider it to be part of his abilities. Think about it; it never attacks Touma, so it seems to be either part of his subconscious ability or some other ability that ends up doing the work for him as of now.

Lastly... I am not talking about her AIM stalker. That is a level 4 power. I am talking about what Kihara Yuiitsu is after in her project when she said that Rikou's power development is going well and gave it a gold. Rikou was not able to influence Dark Matter during the Battle Royale Arc, but she was able to do so later on in NT 5 or 6.

Rikou's power has shown considerable growth considering that it can work on Dark Matter, the #2. If it grew strong enough to affect the #1, she could potentially seal any espers powers by messing with their AIM fields. She could also give herself any power... that's what the current goal of Kihara Yuiitsu and the dog seems to be anyway... I mean that was the next best plan after Agitate Halation. Thinking about that, I really don't see why Rikou wouldn't eventually be much more powerful. I didn't say that she's that powerful yet.... I said she will be. When I said I was speculating, I said I was talking about what will most certainly happen. It's obvious the Kiharas plan is already taking effect. Considering they got so far along with Agitate Halation, I don't see how they wouldn't at least make her a level 5 at this rate... Yuiitsu and the dog are really really smart... when it comes to succeeding with their plans. It might just take a few volumes for them to get anything done because they are waiting for a new patron to fund them... If Rikou had the power to give herself any ability at any time and take away any other espers ability, she would not be a side character, she would be on the frontlines. I don't even know why we're arguing about this.

I said this should change on the next chart, not on this chart. I was noting that it probably will change soon. That's all. What I said about Misaki was just that she was a lot stronger than what people gave her credit for. She did fight people in NT 7. She did a pretty good job of it also. Since she was taking care of a lot of foes at once, she can obviously fight and she's good at it... why call her a side character that can't fight. That doesn't make sense. She did fight along with the other level 5's, and did a pretty good job about it until animals attacked her.

judasmartel

2013-06-16, 16:08

So Misaki is actually adept at hand-to-hand combat like Mikoto and Kuroko (but not really at the same level as Touma)? Or does she use her powers directly?

dniv

2013-06-16, 18:10

So Misaki is actually adept at hand-to-hand combat like Mikoto and Kuroko (but not really at the same level as Touma)? Or does she use her powers directly?

As long as she's fighting with a lot of other espers involved or other people... she can mind control those other people to fight for her and to protect her... As long as the people she is with can't block her mind control... that makes her pretty powerful... imagine what she'd be like with Rikou, Awaki, and even magicians fighting for her... that would not be pretty to see... I'm curious as to whether or not she'd be able to mind control Levinia... I mean would Birdway just be too smart/powerful for it to happen... if not, Misaki could absorb Birdway's knowledge and become a super-powerful force to be reckoned with...

I'm guessing Aleister Crowley is also immune to mind control somehow... I wonder how...

Misaki could also just mind control important people who have legal power or influence... she doesn't need to directly control "powerful" espers in that sense to get her work done. She could have mind controlled everyone in the Radio Noise project probably to solve Mikoto's problem for her... if she had wanted to.. (that's more than Mikoto would have been able to accomplish)...

Power is a relative thing.

Miraluka

2013-06-16, 18:14

So Misaki is actually adept at hand-to-hand combat like Mikoto and Kuroko (but not really at the same level as Touma)? Or does she use her powers directly?

Kuroko, yes, she got a proper training from Judgement. Mikoto, no, she is an amateur, just look how Frenda kicked her ass.

Misaki, I don't think so, she must be even less capable than Mikoto.

I'm guessing Aleister Crowley is also immune to mind control somehow... I wonder how...
He must be like Fiamma, once you reach a certain level you r nigh invulnerable to any kind of effects from spells or attacks. Fiamma had his protection from his HR and used against Index's mind poison but once he lost it on his defeat he started to suffer the consequences.

Ihaxlikenoob

2013-06-16, 18:48

As long as she's fighting with a lot of other espers involved or other people... she can mind control those other people to fight for her and to protect her... As long as the people she is with can't block her mind control... that makes her pretty powerful... imagine what she'd be like with Rikou, Awaki, and even magicians fighting for her... that would not be pretty to see... I'm curious as to whether or not she'd be able to mind control Levinia... I mean would Birdway just be too smart/powerful for it to happen... if not, Misaki could absorb Birdway's knowledge and become a super-powerful force to be reckoned with...

I'm guessing Aleister Crowley is also immune to mind control somehow... I wonder how...

Misaki could also just mind control important people who have legal power or influence... she doesn't need to directly control "powerful" espers in that sense to get her work done. She could have mind controlled everyone in the Radio Noise project probably to solve Mikoto's problem for her... if she had wanted to.. (that's more than Mikoto would have been able to accomplish)...

Power is a relative thing.

Aside:
So many ellipses you're using there pal, in fact there's not one sentence aside from two in your post that doesn't have one.

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On topic:
It's jarring to consider how powerful individuals in the Magic side compared to their Science side counter-parts.

But then again artificial espers are relatively new to supernatural scene, they'll probably evolve or something as the series progresses.

Rovert10

2013-06-16, 18:50

Yeah magic has been in development for what the past couple 1000 years dating back to BC.

Espers been in serious development for about 50 years give or take, have to say that espers/science made up a ton of ground to match magic.

dniv

2013-06-16, 18:52

Aside:
So many ellipses you're using there pal, In fact there's not one sentence aside from two in your post that doesn't have one.

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On topic:
It's jarring to consider how powerful individuals in the Magic side compared to their Science side counter-parts.

But then again artificial espers are relatively new to supernatural scene, they'll probably evolve or something as the series progresses.

Good point.... (just kidding!) :D My last sentence in the second post didn't have elipses :D :D :D

It's kind of like a natural pause for me when I'm talking.

On topic: I want to see espers evolve. I hope they do. They can espervolve. Is there some dragon quest reference I can make, now?

judasmartel

2013-06-16, 19:08

As long as she's fighting with a lot of other espers involved or other people... she can mind control those other people to fight for her and to protect her... As long as the people she is with can't block her mind control... that makes her pretty powerful... imagine what she'd be like with Rikou, Awaki, and even magicians fighting for her... that would not be pretty to see... I'm curious as to whether or not she'd be able to mind control Levinia... I mean would Birdway just be too smart/powerful for it to happen... if not, Misaki could absorb Birdway's knowledge and become a super-powerful force to be reckoned with...

I'm guessing Aleister Crowley is also immune to mind control somehow... I wonder how...

Misaki could also just mind control important people who have legal power or influence... she doesn't need to directly control "powerful" espers in that sense to get her work done. She could have mind controlled everyone in the Radio Noise project probably to solve Mikoto's problem for her... if she had wanted to.. (that's more than Mikoto would have been able to accomplish)...

Power is a relative thing.

Kuroko, yes, she got a proper training from Judgement. Mikoto, no, she is an amateur, just look how Frenda kicked her ass.

Misaki, I don't think so, she must be even less capable than Mikoto.

He must be like Fiamma, once you reach a certain level you r nigh invulnerable to any kind of effects from spells or attacks. Fiamma had his protection from his HR and used against Index's mind poison but once he lost it on his defeat he started to suffer the consequences.

Thank you for your answers. It seems to me that Misaki holds her own better in combat when fighting as part of a team, but I guess there's a reason why Mental Out is of a different league than most esper powers.

tsunade666

2013-06-17, 02:01

Ashaman

2013-06-17, 04:12

You're being really rude. I don't feel like arguing.

P.S. I did read the legend.

P.P.S. about Birdway... (the actual truth) NT 6 reveals that she is a monster that could beat a saint through her power and skill even if she couldn't beat them head on. If you are treating power level as unrelated to your natural abilities, like saying that Seria= level 0 power... then I would agree with the fact that she isn't that strong. Otherwise, I disagree.

In the case of Volume 22: she said that she wasn't saving the world to be good, she was saving it to take control of it for herself and her cabal. That's definitely what I got out of it. That's very different from saying I'm too weak to handle it. She obviously wasn't scared at all in that situation... Just saying... She was saying her intentions weren't good: she was making an ironic joke. This is definitely what I interpreted it as saying. I guess you might also be theoretically able to interpret it the other way, but I don't see it/understand it that way.

P.P.P.S. It's a good chart. I was saying it could be improved. It's an opinion. I was giving some critical feedback. Is that a problem? People accomplish things, making better charts, by taking critical feedback and doing something about it... just saying. You work and you work to get results... like Levinia Birdway. Otherwise, a person/character is weak.

P.P.P.P.S. (if you're saying Touma's power isn't his own ability, then......... that's silly...) his power is his ability... Touma can use IB... so his power is the power of IB... what about that isn't obvious?... Every aspect of IB is part of Touma's power. In terms of Gemstones, their abilities are their own powers. Touma is like that even if he is technically a special case. I guess it's still too early to speculate, but you should be able to see why I wouldn't think that you should separate Touma and the thing inside his right hand that is stored within Imagine Breaker at this point anyway... It's like saying that Accelerator is as strong as he would be if he were brain damaged or if he didn't have the sisters network to help him... he has those things, so why care about whether or not he wouldn't have that ability... Touma's strength right now should be the limit of his ability. The thing inside IB activates without leaving Touma's hand. It just expands. This makes me consider it to be part of his abilities. Think about it; it never attacks Touma, so it seems to be either part of his subconscious ability or some other ability that ends up doing the work for him as of now.

Lastly... I am not talking about her AIM stalker. That is a level 4 power. I am talking about what Kihara Yuiitsu is after in her project when she said that Rikou's power development is going well and gave it a gold. Rikou was not able to influence Dark Matter during the Battle Royale Arc, but she was able to do so later on in NT 5 or 6.

Rikou's power has shown considerable growth considering that it can work on Dark Matter, the #2. If it grew strong enough to affect the #1, she could potentially seal any espers powers by messing with their AIM fields. She could also give herself any power... that's what the current goal of Kihara Yuiitsu and the dog seems to be anyway... I mean that was the next best plan after Agitate Halation. Thinking about that, I really don't see why Rikou wouldn't eventually be much more powerful. I didn't say that she's that powerful yet.... I said she will be. When I said I was speculating, I said I was talking about what will most certainly happen. It's obvious the Kiharas plan is already taking effect. Considering they got so far along with Agitate Halation, I don't see how they wouldn't at least make her a level 5 at this rate... Yuiitsu and the dog are really really smart... when it comes to succeeding with their plans. It might just take a few volumes for them to get anything done because they are waiting for a new patron to fund them... If Rikou had the power to give herself any ability at any time and take away any other espers ability, she would not be a side character, she would be on the frontlines. I don't even know why we're arguing about this.

I said this should change on the next chart, not on this chart. I was noting that it probably will change soon. That's all. What I said about Misaki was just that she was a lot stronger than what people gave her credit for. She did fight people in NT 7. She did a pretty good job of it also. Since she was taking care of a lot of foes at once, she can obviously fight and she's good at it... why call her a side character that can't fight. That doesn't make sense. She did fight along with the other level 5's, and did a pretty good job about it until animals attacked her.

Say you don't want to argue. Continue to argue.

I'm getting mixed signals there mate.

NT 6 reveals that she is a monster that could beat a saint through her power and skill even if she couldn't beat them head on

So? Vento could also probably defeat a Saint with Divine Punishment.

What's your point?

If you look at where Birdway is poitioned, you'd say that everyone above her is moving in to Angel Territory.

In the case of Volume 22: she said that she wasn't saving the world to be good, she was saving it to take control of it for herself and her cabal.

That's probably true. But the thing is, you were saying before that she went around saving the world by stopping the golden arms, but so did half the other people in that section

It's a good chart. I was saying it could be improved. It's an opinion. I was giving some critical feedback. Is that a problem?

By itself? No. But my opinion conflicts with yours. So I say so.

but you should be able to see why I wouldn't think that you should separate Touma and the thing inside his right hand that is stored within Imagine Breaker at this point anyway...

Its not stored inside IB, IB stores it inside Touma's body - or so the current speculation goes.

The thing inside IB activates without leaving Touma's hand. It just expands. This makes me consider it to be part of his abilities. Think about it; it never attacks Touma, so it seems to be either part of his subconscious ability or some other ability that ends up doing the work for him as of now.

But the one time Touma acknowledges it, he refers to it as though its something else, something separate from him.

That great power was smashed in an instant.

“...You,” muttered Kamijou as his lips moved. “I don’t know who you are.”

His words were not especially loud.

And yet they still stabbed into the depths of Fiamma’s ears. His heart uncontrollably went on such high guard that he felt like overlooking a single twitch of a finger or blink of an eye could have a major effect on the outcome of the battle.

“And I don’t know what you’re trying to do.”

Kamijou was not looking at Fiamma of the Right, the possessor of the greatest power even among God’s Right Seat.

Fiamma did not know what he was speaking to.

“But…”

That may have been something only Kamijou Touma could understand.

At any rate, he continued to speak.

“…You stay silent. I’ll take care of this.”

Rikou was not able to influence Dark Matter during the Battle Royale Arc, but she was able to do so later on in NT 5 or 6.

Wrong. She did mess with his AIM.

“That search esper used your AIM to mess up your Personal Reality, right? Shouldn’t you check on that? Your power going out of control would be much more dangerous than a half-defeated member of ITEM. And I’d rather not die from an ally who went out of control.”

Rikou could also give herself any power...

No, I don't think she can.

If she could actually do that…

Personal Realities were the source from which all psychic powers and phenomena were brought into the real world. If they could be controlled, it would mean more than just increasing or decreasing an esper’s level. Simply put, Hamazura Shiage could be given the power of Railgun and Mugino Shizuri could be brought down to being a Level 0. Controlling them would give one the ability to switch out powers and modify the system at will. Dual Skills would enter the field of reality. In that way, reason and skill could be ignored and ridiculous results could be created.

She would be able to give someone any power she wanted at any time she wanted and she would be able to rob someone of any power she wanted at any place she wanted. If she wanted to, she could increase the number of Level 5s or she could strip any opposing esper, even the Number One known as Accelerator, of their Personal Realities and then kill them while they were defenseless.

That went even beyond becoming the Queen of Academy City.

There was only one word that accurately referred to that kind of existence.

“Takitsubo Rikou alone could carry out every function that Academy City does,” said the woman in the helmet and suit giving her response. “No, if she could instantly create whatever power at whatever level she wished and discard that power at any time if it was no longer necessary, she would be able to produce espers even better than Academy City can.”

She was a person with an overwhelming value.

She even overturned the idea that there were only seven Level 5s.

She could give other people powers, but she herself is a different story all together. All of Hamazura's speculation is to do with what Rikou could do to other people.

I don't even know why we're arguing about this.

Partially because you are making stuff up and partially because your opinion clashes with mine.

judasmartel

2013-06-17, 04:29

ugh.... power level. I've been gone for few days or week due to job hunting and now this.

power level in index verse is pretty useless because its like playing paper,rock,scissor with brains, bluff and strategy in between the battle -_-

what's the purpose?

Unless the power difference is vastly different then their is no meaning to it. Plus its more like teamwork battle here even though its not really pure teamwork but same goal and different methods done to beat the enemy.

Its more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Well, in a series as popular as this, people want to know who beats who, and if it's even possible for an underdog to defeat a much powerful opponent.

But then, like in One Piece, power levels in TAMNI don't work in the same way "who beats who" charts usually do. And I like that. Although, this could be a double-edged sword, because some readers who happen to stumble across this chart would feel they have a legitimate reason to call Ass Pull on victories that they think shouldn't happen anyway (especially Touma vs pretty much anyone not named Accelerator and Shiage vs Mugino).

Like I said, I like power levels in TAMNI not working in a "who beats who" format, because an underdog can defeat a much powerful opponent through good tactics and a little bit of luck.

Marina2

2013-06-17, 04:55

judasmartel

2013-06-17, 05:14

I wish we could see Rikou in hand-to-hand combat on a consistent basis. That way she doesn't have to rely on her powers so often.

Ashaman

2013-06-17, 05:17

About Rikou,

If you can accept the use of weapon as a skill (like Frenda) You can also put her in Combat part.

Lv5 Rikou will be the top of all esper because she can turn all espers into lv0 (automatically send them to the bottom of the chart) and finish them of with any weapons.

Actually, during NT, we have seen that Rikou seems to have very high physical strength. Look what she can break/bent with her bare hands!. Train her some basic close combat and she can just knock out everyone she turned to level 0 with her bare hand. LOL

While those "what she could do?" is Hamazura's speculation, it's also the message from the author to readers so, there is a high chance that she can do everything mentioned there or else why would the author mention about them in the first place?

Oh and I think she may do even better than Rensa at lv5 or else those Kiraha family won't interest in her that much right?

The thing is, even if she has super strength or whatever, if she never, ever uses them in combat, what's the point?

And yes, there is a high chance she can do everything mentioned there. When she is a Level 5.

And what I was pointing out is that, in that list, there is zero mention of her doing those things to herself. She most likely can't make herself a Level 5 Pyro, or give hereslf Dual Skill, but doing it to others is possible.

Its always in the context of what she could give or take from other people.

If/When she develops into a Level 5 and if/when she starts using those abilites in actual fights, then yes, she should be moved into the Combat leagues.

But as it stands now, at this moment, she's purely support, and the only instance of her in an actual fight is the off screen fight versus Kakine in which she proves little more than an annoyance.

“Well, she did pretty well considering that she had no direct battle power. She must have used her search power to interfere with my AIM diffusion field and then ‘reversed the flow’ in an attempt to take control of my power. Really, if she grew some more she could even become the 8th.”

“Just so you know, she collapsed on her own,” said the girl in the dress. “It’s because she forced herself to keep using Body Crystal in order to fight us in this building. If we had seriously attacked her, there wouldn’t have been even a scrap of flesh left.”

She fought well and messed with Kakine, but from the way they talk neither Measure Heart nor Kakine took her seriously and she exhuasted herself.

Marina2

2013-06-17, 07:50

Ashaman

2013-06-17, 11:52

@Ashaman

I only give my theory about what Rikou Power level should be when she's level 5. I didn't really intend my post to be about whether her power should be 'combat type' or 'support type'. The real goal of my post is to say that Rikou can use her power to fight if she want.

About your points, aren't the basic of the power level discussion in this topic is about what can character do with their power, their strength etc. Why can't we assume about what can Rikou do with her full potential at Lv5

Reduce one esper level to 0 and finish him/her off with other methods is one of combo she may able to do easily when she's lv5. Even if she can't fight or not interest to fight now, Rikou may try to train her body to be able to fight in the future. Actually, even she won't train to fight, knock out a powerless person won't be that hard with a tool (i.e. a baseball bat, a stun gun) especially in a necessary situation.

And........Huh?? I never said anything about "she can do those things to herself" in my post. I only talked about what is stated in the novel, but of course, if she can, it would be nice.

Meh, ignore me.

I still had the things Dniv was saying in my head and put everything you said in that sort of context.

Sorry about that.

The thing that is weird about Rikou is that, although she could stand at the top (near the top. Angel Wing Accelerator and Awakened Dark Matter may not follow standard Esper rules) of Espers, she would be useless against Magicians.

So she could fight, but she'd be really specialized.

Frankly, she'd be a similar sort of existence to Touma in that her main offensive ability would be to negate other people's offensive ability.

That also comes with the same weaknesses, namely that if she ever came up against someone with superior physical fighting skills, she'd be just a normal girl.

If you were to put it in the context of the chart, you'd place Level 5 Rikou somewhere between Rensa and Winged Accelerator, or possibly above him. But you'd give her the same "Special" border as Touma.

Marina2

2013-06-17, 13:57

Miraluka

2013-06-17, 14:04

Hmm...look like we have finally come to an agreement about Rikou

...........................................

Next, about Misaki. I think she is very powerful.

While we can see that her power probably won't effect any Lv5s that have higher rank than her (Can Mugino defend Miksaki 's mind-control??? - I'm not sure) but what if she use her power on magic side characters?

Okey, it probaby won't work on Angel, Magic God, God right seat members, Super-being like Aiwass or high-class magicians like Aleister Crowley and saints but what about magic-side characters below those level?

Who will or will not affect by Misaki power? How powerful they are as a magician that will grant them the immunity to Misaki's power?

P.S. I don't really expect someone can give me the answer.....
Remember what Brunhild said on NT4, any magician would be prepared against mental attacks, Tsuchimikado make it clear as well on NT7 any magician would be prepared against simple curses like the one he used to defeat Seria.

Also, I recall Tsuchimikado isn't top tier but still with his limitation of being an hybrid he was able to make a barrier that worked partially against the grand magic that was Angel Fall.

Karna

2013-06-17, 17:54

Made this for another forum.

Tier 1
Aiwass

Tier 2
Aleister Crowley
Fiamma of The Right (La Persona Superiore a Dio)
Gabriel/Misha

Tier 2.5
Othinus (50/50 probability manipulation)
Fiamma (Base)
Accelerator (White Wings)
Rensa (White Wings)
Ollerus
Kazakiri Hyouka

Tier 3
Fiamma (Depowered, No Right Arm)
Accelerator (Black Wings)
Rensa (Black Wings)
Johns Pen Mode Index
Carissa (Curtana Original)

Tier 4
Kakine Teitoku (Dark Kakine)
Kakine Teitoku (Beetle 05)
Accelerator (Base)
Acqua of the Back
The Knight Leader (Hrunting)
Queen Elizard (Curtana Second)
Vento of The Front (Divine Punishment)
Rensa #28
Rensa #29
Aureolus Izzard
Vento of the Front (Queen of the Adriatic Sea)
Mjölnir
Brunhild Eiktobel (Gungnir)
Vasilissa
Maiden of Versailles
Carissa (Shards Of Curtana Original)

Tier 4.5
Marian Slingeneyer (Danseif)
Etzali (Two Grimiores)
Kanzaki Kaori
Brunhild Eiktobel (Base)
Mugino Shizuri (Meltdowner Arm)
Kakine Teitoku (Awakened, Pre-Revival)
Thor (Hooked to Mjolnir)
Silvia

Tier 5
Kakine Teitoku (Base, Pre-Revival)
Levenia Birdway
Terra Of The Left
Mugino Shizuri
Sogiita Gunha
Misaka Mikoto
Kihara Byrouri (Using Dark Matter)
Kihara Kagun

Tier 6
AIM Burst
Kuroyoru Umidori (Thousands Of Mechanical Arms)
Shokuhou Misaki (With Exterior)
Hamazura Shaige (Five-Over)
Silvercross Alpha (Five-Over)
Thor (Base)

Tier 7
Bayloupe
Itsuwa
Lessar
Aureolus Dummy
Awaki Musujime
Kinuhata Saiai
Hamazura Shiage (Dragon Rider)
Komaba Ritoku
Tsuchimikado Motoharu
Tatemiya Saiji
Sherry Cromwell
Xochitl
Yamisaka Ouma
Kihara Byrouri (Wheelchair)
Marian Slingeneyer (Golden Items)

Tier 8
Sugitani
Misaka Worst
Measure Heart
Angelene
Agnese Sanctis
Frenda
Kihara Amata
Floris
Kongou Mitsuko
Lucia
Misaka Sisters
Shirai Kuroko
Hattori Hanzou
Kuroyoru Umidori (base)

Ihaxlikenoob

2013-06-17, 18:30

No Touma, or even the Invisible Thing?

Karna

2013-06-17, 19:19

Not sure where to put him. That, and the list is still incomplete.

shmaster

2013-06-18, 01:51

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

dniv

2013-06-18, 02:55

Meh, ignore me.

I still had the things Dniv was saying in my head and put everything you said in that sort of context.

Sorry about that.

The thing that is weird about Rikou is that, although she could stand at the top (near the top. Angel Wing Accelerator and Awakened Dark Matter may not follow standard Esper rules) of Espers, she would be useless against Magicians.

So she could fight, but she'd be really specialized.

Frankly, she'd be a similar sort of existence to Touma in that her main offensive ability would be to negate other people's offensive ability.

That also comes with the same weaknesses, namely that if she ever came up against someone with superior physical fighting skills, she'd be just a normal girl.

If you were to put it in the context of the chart, you'd place Level 5 Rikou somewhere between Rensa and Winged Accelerator, or possibly above him. But you'd give her the same "Special" border as Touma.

I don't see why you say this. I understand where you are coming from now because you are saying it doesn't specifically say she can't power herself up. Ok that makes more sense. I thought you were saying that conversation never happened and she couldn't do any of that level 5 stuff. That was my misconception. She might be able to affect her power, we just have to wait to find out if it does happen.

Though... I do kind of think that she would be able to affect her own powers... otherwise... why would AC say that they wouldn't need any of the other level 5's, but just her because she could produce any power at any time and then get rid of it. They kind of said that she was the only necessary esper (which would mean she could probably do it to herself, unless I interpreted it wrong).

As to Birdway... sure... but she's still really strong. I guess Vento can do a larger scale spell... I don't think she could beat Acqua though and I'm not sure whether or not Birdway could. Birdway probably could because of her skill/manipulation... but this is just speculation...

I'm really not trying to pick a fight :heh:

I said I didn't want to argue... then I waited like a full day before adding more stuff... originally all I said was that I didn't want to argue :heh: I was kind of busy that night... :heh:

Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything else you said. I still don't see why you got so mad at me :confused: I was just stating what I thought was true... it's not like I haven't read the series as well and know absolutely nothing... I just interpreted some of the stuff differently...

BTW:

I think tiers is a good way of measuring their powers.

About the thing inside Touma's arm: I disagree. I think it goes with IB. Why else would it have messed up Rensa. I mean I'm pretty sure it was the thing inside IB, that other force, which made her overload and explode her arm.

I never said the arm was part of Touma's will... it's definitely separate from him. It just seems to do things that are favorable for him every time we've seen it. It's like one of the level 5's and it's super power boost... that level 5 doesn't want to use it if it isn't necessary...

BTW: when I was talking about Rikou other than the her powering herself up, I was talking about that, if she were potentially a level 5... I wasn't talking about what she could do now... other than my misconception (possibly not though) I don't see how I actually said anything there any different from Marina... :upset:

Anyway... maybe I just like Birdway/Rikou more than Terra and want them to be more powerful for those reasons ;)

Anyway, I really don't want to argue more about this. I'll just say you're generally right except for the ambiguous parts...

versionf

2013-06-18, 08:19

As to Birdway... sure... but she's still really strong. I guess Vento can do a larger scale spell... I don't think she could beat Acqua though and I'm not sure whether or not Birdway could. Birdway probably could because of her skill/manipulation... but this is just speculation...

Human bodies have limits, Major Arcana could temporary buff Birdway to supersonic movements, anymore would probably be a bad idea. Normal magician that got up to Saint level is Thor, and we saw how his spell was wrecking his body. Saints that used a spell to push himself to the limit, like Kanzaki, could fight Archangel. Unless she has some grimoire hax or telesma hax, I don't see how she could beat a Saint (well maybe she could, but it wouldn't be easy), much less Acqua, a veteran fighter unlike most of the characters in the series, he has combat experiences for many years as mercenary.

Here's version 2.1, it might get updated soon but I'll post it anyway.
http://i.imgur.com/zuzjBsU.jpg (http://imgur.com/zuzjBsU)

Miraluka

2013-06-18, 12:14

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

傾国の女（デュランダル）
lol. Some translators refers to her as prostitute :heh:.

Cosmic Eagle

2013-06-18, 22:13

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

Othinius not S+ though? And Angel Accelerator being same level as Kakine?

leukrota

2013-06-18, 22:42

So... who wins between "washing machine" and "vending machine"?

judasmartel

2013-06-18, 22:58

Vending Machine pwns freaking everything except the God Tier. EVEN Imagine Breaker (2000 yen) and Railgun (10000 yen).

shmaster

2013-06-18, 23:07

Othinius not S+ though? And Angel Accelerator being same level as Kakine?

The consensus over a 2ch is the current 50/50 Odin is not as good as Fiamma during his peak of power.

Angel Accelerator should be Kakine cleanly, no one would disagree. But this is not a who beats who ranking too.
Take in Kakine's now near infinite durability, his ranking got boosted all the way up.

dniv

2013-06-19, 01:40

The consensus over a 2ch is the current 50/50 Odin is not as good as Fiamma during his peak of power.

Angel Accelerator should be Kakine cleanly, no one would disagree. But this is not a who beats who ranking too.
Take in Kakine's now near infinite durability, his ranking got boosted all the way up.

That's a good point. I didn't really think about it. But that makes sense. If she were at least as strong as Fiamma by being OP 50% of the time, she probably wouldn't have to wait to make herself 100% before executing her plan. She could just try to either eliminate Aleister completely (if she's strong enough) or use her power to skew the world the way that she wants and at least hold off Aleister in the meantime.

I have a question: she's worried about Touma reversing whatever she does to the world. If she changes it beyond recognition, what would he even do to start changing it back? Wouldn't he have to touch it while the magic's happening. If Touma isn't even there, wouldn't the magic succeed? I thought Touma couldn't negate after-effects of the power, or is the power activating/working continuously in this case?

BTW: yeah, Kakine because of his infinite creation is very powerful. I am curious though... Kakine's power seems similar to dark legacy at this point, doesn't it? Dark Legacy does sound like dark matter... but... I'm curious as to whether or not there's a connection. If so.... it could explain some things...

I like where you put Rensa in her top form in version 2.1. When I said Birdway could maybe beat Acqua, I didn't mean in battle. I meant she would take advantage of his decency and goodness he had from before and utilize it against him and make him destroy himself. I'm sure she could just make him feel really guilty for his actions and make him break down. As long as she could stay away from him, she'd probably be fine.

After all... I mean, Volume 5 or 6 was it said that Levinia could be in the same company as Saints and not be scared because she herself was such a monster that she could find some other means that simple power to back them away into a corner. That's why I said that. Assuming that Kamachi says she could use her charisma to defeat saints, I don't see why she couldn't really at least have a good chance versus Acqua (okay he's special).

By the way guys, you are exaggerating about the vending machine.....................

Stop calling it so weak. Don't lie/joke about that. You think it would lose to God tier? I doubt it ;) That vending machine can withstand guts, railguns, and imagine breaker. If you think about that... it has to be a pretty sturdy machine... and it must not have any illusions... it must really know what it wants to do in life: torment Touma all of the time :D

shmaster

2013-06-19, 02:54

I doubt Levinia would have chance against Acqua, assuming he is at his peak of power.
Acqua's belief in justice is approaching the realm of zealotry. I highly doubt Levinia can exploit him mentally. Physically, being a double saint makes him eons ahead of regular saints. Even taking into the account of Levinia's fire power, the gap in physical spec is just too big.

larethian

2013-06-19, 03:23

Vending Machine pwns freaking everything except the God Tier. EVEN Imagine Breaker (2000 yen) and Railgun (10000 yen).

By far, the best fact of Indexverse. :heh:

OverNOut

2013-06-19, 06:14

Vending Machine pwns freaking everything except the God Tier. EVEN Imagine Breaker (2000 yen) and Railgun (10000 yen).

Lol, that made my day.
I bet that even Othinus will lose (money) to the Vending Machine.:heh:

versionf

2013-06-19, 07:50

I like where you put Rensa in her top form in version 2.1.

Just to clarify, I didn't make the chart.

Lol, that made my day.
I bet that even Othinus will lose (money) to the Vending Machine.:heh:

50%:heehee:

leukrota

2013-06-19, 09:11

Vending Machine pwns freaking everything except the God Tier. EVEN Imagine Breaker (2000 yen) and Railgun (10000 yen).

Indeed, now that you put it what way...

They should put Washing machine just above Kanzaki, and Vending machine at around Aiwass/Aleister's level (troll god tier).

OverNOut

2013-06-19, 09:17

^ The Washing Machine did cause Kanzaki to cry in its first appearance.:heh:

Hiss13

2013-06-19, 12:28

^ The Washing Machine did cause Kanzaki to cry in its first appearance.:heh:

The Washing Machine has its own Saint Killer attack.

Even if it made her cry in its first appearance, they later became the best of friends.

dniv

2013-06-19, 15:37

Just to clarify, I didn't make the chart.

50%:heehee:

You wish. Even if she can do anything. That vending machine defies reality. I mean it defies guts/Gunha which already seems to defy logic so... she would still have to pay.

Indeed, now that you put it what way...

They should put Washing machine just above Kanzaki, and Vending machine at around Aiwass/Aleister's level (troll god tier).

Yes. That washing machine is an AC washing machine it's the real deal.
Also:
What other vending machine can play victory songs? If you know of one, please let me know. I think it's part of Aleister's plan... or maybe he's part of it's plan ;)

Ihaxlikenoob

2013-06-23, 22:00

Here's version 2.1, it might get updated soon but I'll post it anyway.
http://i.imgur.com/zuzjBsU.jpg (http://imgur.com/zuzjBsU)
Ahh, just remembered to ask, where do you find these charts?

versionf

2013-06-25, 08:37

Ahh, just remembered to ask, where do you find these charts?

Original was from JP IIRC, not sure though. Recent one is edited and updated by a guy from /a/, anime board of 4chan.

Miraluka

2013-09-02, 11:31

It seems that Ollerus = Evil Kakine(with Marian's weapon creating thing)

dniv

2013-09-02, 15:23

It seems that Ollerus = Evil Kakine(with Marian's weapon creating thing)

Ollerus said Gunha might be + Ollerus if he figured out his powers... does this mean Gunha could be the #2 in terms of power at his max or maybe #1 :heh:

Lulu Vie Britania

2013-09-02, 23:11

dniv

2013-09-03, 00:25

We haven't seen any fights between Accel and Ollerus yet. There is a possibility Accel can beat him.
And in terms of awakening Accel has the most powerful.
I believe he can beat Evil Kakine if he awakens.

I hope he can... otherwise Aleister chose wrong... and that would just be ridiculous... Aleister only can make so MANY mistakes as opposed to most people who only can have so MANY successes.

Frankly, I am surprised that Evil Kakine is so powerful... though I guess that infinite dark matter creation is a problem... isn't Kakine worried about the same problem happening as what happened before? If Rikou messes with Kakine won't the same thing happen as before or are things different now?

LazyHunter

2013-09-03, 08:54

Frankly, I am surprised that Evil Kakine is so powerful... though I guess that infinite dark matter creation is a problem... isn't Kakine worried about the same problem happening as what happened before? If Rikou messes with Kakine won't the same thing happen as before or are things different now?

His good side already has a body and will of his own, what else could posibly jump out of him and ruin his day? His insanier side? His girly side (gender bender FTW) His tsundere self towards Accelerator? :heh:

And obviously spawning anything you want without having to follow the rules of physics is incredible broken with a bare minimum of imagination.

Phibrizzo

2013-09-05, 09:54

Lets not start of multiple personalities because we can get into a Hulk level argument.

belatkuro

2014-02-14, 13:40

dniv

2014-02-14, 14:24

http://i.imgur.com/9yerdZ9.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/9yerdZ9.jpg) /a/ finally updated the chart. Includes NT9, Railgun latest chapter, Endymion and Necessarius.
This'll probably get updated again later on due to some doubtful points like Ureapaddy and Freadia being that high(higher than Mugino and Misaka).
And Misaka's forced transformation with Exterior is doubtful as well as we haven't seen the full extent of that.

Discuss.

>Segway-kun in the support
:heh:

Since, this is the regular power level discussion, and last volume has a ton of spoilers, we should probably spoiler everything related to that discussion here for a while longer:

I hope she'll get some action soon: she felt like she could have challenged Thor (maybe).

Otherwise, I'm not sure if Gungnir Othinus is actually any stronger than Aiwass or he's just a stronger, disinterested, lazy bum.

The main problem for me with Touma's placement above Fiamma when he is the one who cleanses God is that he said he'd still lose to the average magician. Whatever the heck that means.

Though, last volume kind of made it obvious that Touma is a combat genius of a sort. Even Othinus was impressed by his ability to come up with theories on the field of battle.

allfictions

2014-02-14, 14:34

Lmao to the segway and the washing machine!

Aah, I was wondering if they would put STUDY. Glad they didn't.

But Magical Powered Kanamin in support? Lol.
The main problem for me with Touma's placement above Fiamma when he is the one who cleanses God is that he said he'd still lose to the average magician. Whatever the heck that means.
Technically, that isn't normal Touma, it's Touma with IT and the third power.

dniv

2014-02-14, 15:07

Lmao to the segway and the washing machine!

Aah, I was wondering if they would put STUDY. Glad they didn't.

But Magical Powered Kanamin in support? Lol.

Technically, that isn't normal Touma, it's Touma with IT and the third power.

About that, I think he's still mistakenly placed there below Othinus then. This is because NT 4 itself says that Othinus crushes IT's power while it is still unknown. This makes me think this chart will probably change a bit eventually.

Either way, Aleister himself said something that seems to imply that IT was not at full power in the epilogue of 13/14/15. (one of them...)

And yes, I'm happy to see no STUDY. I'm pretty sure they'd only be stronger than some of the support.

Acer

2014-02-14, 18:49

lol, demon mikoto totally underestimated.

dniv

2014-02-14, 19:03

lol, demon mikoto totally underestimated.

Lol what's that, it's just barely above regular Gunha. :heh:

I also very much disagree with Gensei's positioning. He's not even above AIM burst nor Kiyama. That's ridiculous. Besides multi-skill, his body is super-strong, based on what it is made of. With exterior, he can also control people within like 100 kilometers or something like that. He should be more powerful than Equi-dark matter in my opinion... especially given that he could leak secrets to whoever he wants without being noticed by using his power in order to blackmail others...

JonathanCS

2014-02-14, 19:55

About that, I think he's still mistakenly placed there below Othinus then. This is because NT 4 itself says that Othinus crushes IT's power while it is still unknown. This makes me think this chart will probably change a bit eventually.

Either way, Aleister himself said something that seems to imply that IT was not at full power in the epilogue of 13/14/15. (one of them...)

And yes, I'm happy to see no STUDY. I'm pretty sure they'd only be stronger than some of the support.

that's just because the 50/50. remember touma is just too unlucky, theorically his power is suposedly superior but his unluckiness hits him and the power was crushed

Miraluka

2014-02-14, 20:07

lol, demon mikoto totally underestimated.
Those above her are too awesome to be toped that easy.

Btw, I don't agree with Othinus being equal with Aiwass and being above Aleister.

Hiss13

2014-02-14, 20:32

>Segway-kun in the support
:heh:

Segway-kun is the BEST support and Othinus's best friend.

With regards to Othinus (Gungnir) being equal to Aiwass...there is too little information to go on simply because we know so little about Aiwass. However, I think I am going to have to agree that Aiwass should be at least slightly higher that Othinus (Gungnir) at this point. However, the key determinant is whether Aiwass has memories of all of the phases Touma and Othinus have been through which is likely.

Birdway

2014-02-14, 21:09

Who is Segway?
Can't remember.

dniv

2014-02-14, 21:15

Those above her are too awesome to be toped that easy.

Btw, I don't agree with Othinus being equal with Aiwass and being above Aleister.
It's based on what characters showed so far power wise. Aleister didn't do quite that much yet compared to othinus even if he is obviously stronger.
Who is Segway?
Can't remember.

Will-chan.

BossKagaxx

2014-02-14, 23:39

Will-chan.
Lol.:rolleyes::heh:

It's based on what characters showed so far power wise. Aleister didn't do quite that much yet compared to othinus even if he is obviously stronger.
Yes, if the power level is based on what we have actually seen so far, then those might be correct (even though Aiwass should be above Othinus, even a little). But I kind of agree that Othinus (Gungnir) may be above Aliester since she said that not even the Golden Dawn had reached her level. But that was during the time of Golden Dawn, I don't know if that is still the case now...

allfictions

2014-02-15, 00:56

Yes, if the power level is based on what we have actually seen so far, then those might be correct (even though Aiwass should be above Othinus, even a little). But I kind of agree that Othinus (Gungnir) may be above Aliester since she said that not even the Golden Dawn had reached her level. But that was during the time of Golden Dawn, I don't know if that is still the case now...
Aleister is the Silver Star she mentionned, and going by her comment, he was up to his own devices during the whole volume.

Aleister =/= his cabal

Hiss13

2014-02-15, 01:03

Aleister =/= his cabal

Come to think of it, wasn't it once said (Volume 7, I belive) that Aleister considered the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn to be nothing more than rabid fanboys? Or am I remembering this wrong? :heh:

JonathanCS

2014-02-15, 11:10

It's based on what characters showed so far power wise. Aleister didn't do quite that much yet compared to othinus even if he is obviously stronger.

Will-chan.

isn't segway the two weeled vehicle othinus was using?

dniv

2014-02-15, 18:38

Lol.:rolleyes::heh:

Yes, if the power level is based on what we have actually seen so far, then those might be correct (even though Aiwass should be above Othinus, even a little). But I kind of agree that Othinus (Gungnir) may be above Aliester since she said that not even the Golden Dawn had reached her level. But that was during the time of Golden Dawn, I don't know if that is still the case now...

isn't segway the two weeled vehicle othinus was using?
In my defense,

Segway could be referring to being a segueway, which is what I thought people were saying. And Will-chan was a segueway from how Touma was before he talked to her, to how he was after he talked to her... i.e. suffering and then battling; I hope you understand why I made this mistake...

SimoHalo

2014-11-14, 04:28

Thought I would post the upgraded chart

http://i.imgur.com/fwoGgAl.jpg

LevelSeven

2014-11-14, 09:46

Thought I would post the upgraded chart

http://i.imgur.com/fwoGgAl.jpg

ohh, come on...

i dont know on which aspects they create this chart but im really confused...

they under-hype aiwass so many f*cking times it isnt even funny :mad:
and, almighty thor, who is literally a match for anyone who isnt planet buster, and even than, the person who destroed the planet would need the power to survive, than, if not it would be a draw :/
nevermind, so, he is on par with gungnir-levinia? and BOTH, the one who can solo gremlin (minus othinus,myölnir and dvergr) + the one who can blow up the planet ARE below deinsleif-marian? :eyebrow: :twitch: :eyespin:

i know that this isnt a who-beats-who chart but, what does it actually show ?
well, accel is above majin othinus and 99%-majin ollerus :/ the same for fuse-kanzaki, why is she above them? didnt show any feats, again, what is used for this chart? it is really confusing :/

what i like is that fiamma pre-vol16 is above ollerus and othinus (pre-fairy spell) (even if this isnt a "who beats who" chart :D )

allfictions

2014-11-14, 18:19

they under-hype aiwass so many f*cking times it isnt even funny :mad:
Are you looking at the same chart as I am? Aiwass is at the top.
and, almighty thor, who is literally a match for anyone who isnt planet buster, and even than, the person who destroed the planet would need the power to survive, than, if not it would be a draw :/
Well, directly above him are Pendex, Brahmastra, Leivinia with Fake Gungnir, and Maria with Dainsleif, so there are your planet busters. What's the problem here?
nevermind, so, he is on par with gungnir-levinia? and BOTH, the one who can solo gremlin (minus othinus,myölnir and dvergr) + the one who can blow up the planet ARE below deinsleif-marian? :eyebrow: :twitch: :eyespin:
See above, I just realized you read the chart wrong.

LevelSeven

2014-11-15, 02:14

Pablete

2014-11-15, 06:48

Im pretty sure spells like Grand quake and Cocytus Reversal screams end of the world.

Burden

2014-11-15, 07:36

I'd have to dispute Almighty Thor, he is very clearly one of the strongest characters shown thus far. Somehow I feel he would rank higher than pre-Gungnir Othinus. Just food for thought.

Pablete

2014-11-15, 07:39

I doubt someone with good reflexes and strength could lose to him like a Saint.

LevelSeven

2014-11-15, 07:51

Im pretty sure spells like Grand quake and Cocytus Reversal screams end of the world.

are this spells of deinsleif-marian?
but the gods she summons arent on 100%, she can only use a fraction, and from what NT10 showed us, she can make spells on the scale of destroying a city :eyebrow:
pendex's powers are also mountain-buster at most :/

^i had a long discussion with doom-paperclip about thor vs double-saint acqua, and at the end, i think the chances for acqua to win are maybe 35-65 (if not lesser :/ )

Pablete

2014-11-15, 07:54

Those are Index's.

SimoHalo

2014-11-15, 09:03

I doubt someone with good reflexes and strength could lose to him like a Saint.

I'm pretty sure he would curbstomp someone like Kanzaki, reflexes doesn't matter when the world teleports you into his attacks

Pablete

2014-11-15, 09:12

His attacks are on the level of a human fist fight.

Saints are like hitting a wall.

SimoHalo

2014-11-15, 09:22

His attacks are on the level of a human fist fight.

Saints are like hitting a wall.

He has superstrength with his belt and it's implied that he can also use his lightning blades while in Almighty mode

Pablete

2014-11-15, 09:29

SimoHalo

2014-11-15, 09:42

He no longer can use the blades powered by Mjolnir.

And there is no such implications about Almighty mode using lightning. NT10 made clear he can switch the world and fist fight but making him unable to do more.

He says that he simply added the other things, like the belt and the lightning

“This is all I have. From beginning to end, it’s nothing but this. With Mjölnir’s support, I can add in the fusion blades and make it a little more acrobatic, but this is all I have now. To be blunt, this is your chance. You’ll never have a better opportunity.”

Even with that incomplete power, he had fought over one hundred Gremlin members and defeated them all unscathed. Even if he enjoyed attacking at his enemy’s weak points, he had still been taking on almost the entire organization that had caused so much chaos in the world.

There is no mention that he using his Almighty spell stops him from using his other gear, and since it's mentioned that him only using his Almighty mode is "incomplete" it's safe to deduce that with Mjolnir support and his other spiritual items he is "complete"

Pablete

2014-11-15, 10:38

It's in the text, with Mjolnir he adds the blades.

Without her he can't.

SimoHalo

2014-11-15, 10:58

It's in the text, with Mjolnir he adds the blades.

Without her he can't.

He still can use his superstrength, and in a battle of attrition he would win.

allfictions

2014-11-15, 14:01

@allfictions
I dont think i read it wrong :/ , which spell allows Index to destroy the planet? (Yes, she didnt show her full powers, but she isnt a majin either), than, marian deinsleif seems to above gungnir-levinia and almighty-thor, how? Gungnir-Levinia should be on par with alm-thor or under him, since the best she will gain is a draw....

Furthermore, deinself-marian should be under gung-levinia and alm-thor, i would say that pendex and dein-marian are on par... (the gods are slow and instable (to some extent) (to be seen in NT10) )....

Oh, yeah, they placed dein-marian above majin othinus and majin ollerus -_-
Dude, you asked for planet busters, all three are:

Pendex has many advantages in her favour. One, as mentionned by Pablete, she probably has in store one, if not all, Grand Magic(s), certain spells that take effect on a world wide scale like Angel Fall: Earth Shaker, Phantom Hound, and Cocytus Replica. Two, she is freaking Pendex, she sure as hell going to analyze the shit out of Almighty Thor and find a counter to it.
Even if Thor doesn't have the same knowledge as Touma nad Othinus to make Fake Gungnir destroy the world, we are still talking about a lance that never fails to reach its target. Just by that Thor is already screwed.
For Marian, it's quite simple. Not only does she have the powers of her sword sheated (die from fear, black hole, etc), but, if she does not put a barrier once she unsheats it, it would create phenomenon similar Angel Fall or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and destroy it. Seriously, you can't really argue against that, and this is also why she is als superior to Othinus 50/50, who needs Gungnir to cut away Phases.

kanzaki
Kazakiri. And if you look carefully, she is actually a bit below Gabriel (and Marian), since she fought with it almost equally, which I think is what her position means on the chart. As an aside, Leivinia couldn't beat her with her Gungnir relying on someone's knowledge of the weapon, which someone from the Science Side probably don't know about.
white wing accel is above them (i like this part but i still dont understand why someone places whitewingaccel -who has little (VERY little) feats- above universe buster majin othinus and magic-side-solo'er ollerus :-/ )
Same argument as Kazakiri for White Winged Accel: his position compared to Archangel Gabriel. Also, it's not planet buster Othinus, it's 50/50 Othinus.
The part for aiwass: i said this because they place aleister on par with him and gungnir-othinus slightly under them and the other gods -_- shouldnt he be....... well, be the strongest?
To take your argument from earlier, you do realize Aiwass has actually shown few, very few feats, right? All we know is that:

It knocks everyone out when it appears.
No one from the Aeon of Osiris can defeat him (including Christian Angels).
Even after being destroyed, he can be reborn every few 10,000 to 100,000 years.

That's it. Compared to it, we know/have been shown that Aleister:

Was Aiwass' student and wrote the Book of the Law that might usher the Aeon of Horus, as such, there is no reason to not think Aleister is in the Aeon of Horus (further confirmed by his lecture to Fiamma).
Aleister was the one to bind Aiwass to his city's dispersions of AIM fields.
He is omnipresent.
He possesses a wand (Blasting Rod) that can apparently bypass the concept of an otherwise ultimate defense (Holy Right).
He can break and reach Phases (and even the Pure World beneath it all), and one inaccessible and unknown to Othinus with her Gungnir.
He can litterally create and destroy philosophical/psychological concepts of mankind's thought.

And then we have True Gremlin, who explicitely laugh at Aiwass being a failure, which I don't think beings inferior to it or not understanding it could do.

So no, Aiwass is not the strongest anymore, and since a long time. I am surprised you haven't realized this sooner.
Btw: if this isnt a who beats who chart, what does it show?
Everyone's own relative strenght in-universe, from street level to city buster to country buster to planet buster. That doesn't necessarily imply a relation between everyone's relative strenght compared to each others.

LevelSeven

2014-11-15, 15:29

Pendex has many advantages in her favour. One, as mentionned by Pablete, she probably has in store one, if not all, Grand Magic(s), certain spells that take effect on a world wide scale like Angel Fall: Earth Shaker, Phantom Hound, and Cocytus Replica. Two, she is freaking Pendex, she sure as hell going to analyze the shit out of Almighty Thor and find a counter to it.
i forgot the "analyze"-part :( true, she would find a weakness in his spell :/

Even if Thor doesn't have the same knowledge as Touma nad Othinus to make Fake Gungnir destroy the world, we are still talking about a lance that never fails to reach its target. Just by that Thor is already screwed.
and alimgthy thor can, from the wiki:
This magic moves the entire world around him to place him in a position where he can easily defeat his enemy or win.Indeed, even if his target is in the other side of the world, the ability allows him to move the target towards him.It operates automatically, adjusting position and distance such that none of the enemy's attacks can reach him and that he is in the ideal position to attack, such that a win or draw are the only outcomes.
so, going by the things which was stated from both powers, gungnir would never miss thor and thor would always dodge gungnir :eyespin: really paradox :eyebrow: both are in a draw, yes, birdway would blow up the planet, both would die, so it would be a draw :D

For Marian, it's quite simple. Not only does she have the powers of her sword sheated (die from fear, black hole, etc), but, if she does not put a barrier once she unsheats it, it would create phenomenon similar Angel Fall or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and destroy it. Seriously, you can't really argue against that, and this is also why she is als superior to Othinus 50/50, who needs Gungnir to cut away Phases.
if i remember correctly, othinus said that if she had her powrs she could blow up marian+deinsleif in a second :/ but im not sure if othinus meant her 50/50 mode or 100% mode :confused:
either way, (if i remember correctly) the text also said that she needed this space because she wouldnt be able to control deinsleif and that its powers was reduced so that a human could use it (which also resulted in the need of a special space and the weakened/super-nerfed+"instable" gods)...

Kazakiri. And if you look carefully, she is actually a bit below Gabriel (and Marian), since she fought with it almost equally, which I think is what her position means on the chart. As an aside, Leivinia couldn't beat her with her Gungnir relying on someone's knowledge of the weapon, which someone from the Science Side probably don't know about.
? i cant remember that kazakiri fought against birdway, or that cirdway fought against gabriel :confused:

Same argument as Kazakiri for White Winged Accel: his position compared to Archangel Gabriel. Also, it's not planet buster Othinus, it's 50/50 Othinus.
and, 50/50 othinus is strong enoughh to take on the entire world and win :/ (or lose :/ )

To take your argument from earlier, you do realize Aiwass has actually shown few, very few feats, right? All we know is that:

It knocks everyone out when it appears.
No one from the Aeon of Osiris can defeat him (including Christian Angels).
Even after being destroyed, he can be reborn every few 10,000 to 100,000 years.

true, he has very few feats :mad: :heh:

Was Aiwass' student and wrote the Book of the Law that might usher the Aeon of Horus, as such, there is no reason to not think Aleister is in the Aeon of Horus (further confirmed by his lecture to Fiamma).
only want to point out that if majin was able to hurt him (since they are osiris beings (mostlikely because of relying on megic/religion/etc) he mostlikely isnt in the aeon of horus, at least not now...

He possesses a wand (Blasting Rod) that can apparently bypass the concept of an otherwise ultimate defense (Holy Right).
to be fair, HR and fiamma havent been on their 100% unlike aleister...

He can break and reach Phases (and even the Pure World beneath it all), and one inaccessible and unknown to Othinus with her Gungnir.

- what was only possible because othinus first used her gungnir so that all phases vanished (if i understood aleisters explanation about the "how he managed to find them" correctly) :/

And then we have True Gremlin, who explicitely laugh at Aiwass being a failure, which I don't think beings inferior to it or not understanding it could do.
IF they actually know what aiwass truly is, certainly, he existed way before aleister was born and mostlikely he is older than all of the majns together....
btw, looking down on others cant really show how strong they are, awaki showed this in vol.6/7? or was it 8?, the part where he laughed at accel :/ yes, she understaminated him despite having the knowledge about him, the same for the gods :cool:

So no, Aiwass is not the strongest anymore, and since a long time. I am surprised you haven't realized this sooner.
not really, aleister was injured by majins, yes, we dont know if they are from horus or osiris, while i tend to say that they are mostlikely from the osiris aeon, the other way is still possible...
so, majins hurt aleister, aiwass stated that horus-beings cant lose to osiris-beings, conclusion, aleister isnt from the aeon of hhorus, of course, this is my speculation :/

Everyone's own relative strenght in-universe, from street level to city buster to country buster to planet buster. That doesn't necessarily imply a relation between everyone's relative strenght compared to each others.
thank you very much :D

Miraluka

2014-11-15, 17:18

Tho'r skill isn't 100% guaranteed.

Just like Norse's themes. There is no such thing as absolutes. Afterall even Odin's died with his spear and Thor with his hammer as well.

allfictions

2014-11-15, 21:22

and alimgthy thor can, from the wiki:
This magic moves the entire world around him to place him in a position where he can easily defeat his enemy or win.Indeed, even if his target is in the other side of the world, the ability allows him to move the target towards him.It operates automatically, adjusting position and distance such that none of the enemy's attacks can reach him and that he is in the ideal position to attack, such that a win or draw are the only outcomes.
so, going by the things which was stated from both powers, gungnir would never miss thor and thor would always dodge gungnir :eyespin: really paradox :eyebrow: both are in a draw, yes, birdway would blow up the planet, both would die, so it would be a draw :D
Yeah, it's like that Chinese tale about the spear and the shield :heh:
A man was trying to sell a spear and a shield. When asked how good his spear was, he said that his spear could pierce any shield. Then, when asked how good his shield was, he said that it could defend from all spear attacks. Then one person asked him what would happen if he were to take his spear to strike his shield; the seller could not answer.
if i remember correctly, othinus said that if she had her powrs she could blow up marian+deinsleif in a second :/ but im not sure if othinus meant her 50/50 mode or 100% mode :confused:

Need a quote on that :heh: If I'm proven wrong, I will concede.
either way, (if i remember correctly) the text also said that she needed this space because she wouldnt be able to control deinsleif and that its powers was reduced so that a human could use it

Wasn't that Leivinia?
? i cant remember that kazakiri fought against birdway, or that cirdway fought against gabriel :confused:
I expressed myself badly here, what I meant is that, in a hypothetical fight, Leivinia with fake Gungnir wouldn't be able to use it against Kazakiri as she lacks knowledge of the weapon (which Leivinia needs to use it as she doesn't know its true proprieties).
and, 50/50 othinus is strong enoughh to take on the entire world and win :/ (or lose :/ )
That's not what planet buster means. It means you can destroy the world, and willingly at that. Othinus can't, or she wouldn't need to be 100% to create Phases.
only want to point out that if majin was able to hurt him (since they are osiris beings (mostlikely because of relying on megic/religion/etc) he mostlikely isnt in the aeon of horus, at least not now...
Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.
to be fair, HR and fiamma havent been on their 100% unlike aleister...
Even not complete, HR was set to make him win, using the correct force needed to win against the force used, and defended him from threats even him wasn't aware of.
- what was only possible because othinus first used her gungnir so that all phases vanished (if i understood aleisters explanation about the "how he managed to find them" correctly) :/
It doesn't mean he couldn't break through Phases anyway, since his Archetype Controller is somewhat similar to it too.
IF they actually know what aiwass truly is, certainly, he existed way before aleister was born and mostlikely he is older than all of the majns together....
*shrug* Who knows?
btw, looking down on others cant really show how strong they are, awaki showed this in vol.6/7? or was it 8?, the part where he laughed at accel :/ yes, she understaminated him despite having the knowledge about him, the same for the gods :cool:
I really doubt the Magic Gods are in the same situation. They predicted its failure after all.
so, majins hurt aleister, aiwass stated that horus-beings cant lose to osiris-beings, conclusion, aleister isnt from the aeon of hhorus, of course, this is my speculation :/
And beings from the Aeon of Horus fighting against one another?
Tho'r skill isn't 100% guaranteed.

Just like Norse's themes. There is no such thing as absolutes. Afterall even Odin's died with his spear and Thor with his hammer as well.
It theorically wouldn't be that impossible, like someone pointed out in the ToAru threads a long time ago (I like archive binging):
Odin'sGungnir = Never Fails.
Thor's Mjolnir = Full power.
Freyr's Sword = Always Victory.
If only the ways to work around powerful weapons is the same as in Horizon:

Odin's Gungnir = Exploit the reaction times of the wielder and overwhelm her with attacks so many that at least one would hit.
Thor's Mjolnir = Reflect Attack! The incoming force would be much higher than the wielder's defense.
Freyr's Sword = Create a strategy wherein victory would be disadvantageous.
But yeah, as pointed out in the original myths, if Freyr hadn't given up his sword, he wouldn't be killed by Surtr during Ragnarok, and Surtr would have been defeated before he destroy everything.

LevelSeven

2014-11-16, 04:47

Yeah, it's like that Chinese tale about the spear and the shield :heh:
:D

Need a quote on that :heh: If I'm proven wrong, I will concede.
“A sword that closes the path to the power of the gods…no, the path to heaven,” muttered Othinus.

Before the battle even began, Marian had likely used the sword to cut through the surrounding space and create a sort of barrier around the area. If she had not, the appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious phenomenon much like Angel Fall. Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.

Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration.

“That truly is an appropriate weapon for opposing a magic god.”

If Othinus had been at full strength, she could have crushed Marian in a single blow.

There would not even be a need to kill her. She could simply throw her into a world of happiness.

But that was no longer the case.
but i need to say that i think i was wrong with at 50/50, it seems like she really mentioned herself at 100% :/

Wasn't that Leivinia?
true, after rereading it i didnt find the part where the text said that deinsleif was weakened, only that it needed to hold back because it would crush the whole world if it wasnt restrained :/

I expressed myself badly here, what I meant is that, in a hypothetical fight, Leivinia with fake Gungnir wouldn't be able to use it against Kazakiri as she lacks knowledge of the weapon (which Leivinia needs to use it as she doesn't know its true proprieties).
if we allow Index, than yes, she would be able to do it...
if not, i doubt that birdway would have a chance,
and in both cases she would have a hard time if the magic-disruption-aim-field shows up too and injures her each time birdway tries to use a spell :/

That's not what planet buster means. It means you can destroy the world, and willingly at that. Othinus can't, or she wouldn't need to be 100% to create Phases.
i didnt know that this was part of it :/
btw, does accel count as one? the side effects which should have happened after he slowed down the earth (but it didnt...well, cant blame the author, nobody wants to end the story because if the outburst of one 16-yars old boy :heh: ) would have been really destuctive :/ and this was with 5 minutes of slowing down :/

Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.
i know, this is why i tried to make clear that only IF the majins are osiris-beings, it would mean that aleister isnt from horus :D

Even not complete, HR was set to make him win, using the correct force needed to win against the force used, and defended him from threats even him wasn't aware of.

but isnt it a power which was instabl and had a cool-down-time-span? exsecially after he used so much energy in evolving into LSDAP and than re-evolving into a human again :/

It doesn't mean he couldn't break through Phases anyway, since his Archetype Controller is somewhat similar to it too.
as far as the story goes, he didnt do it on his own until now :/ well , i too, think he can do it, but this si speculative, and, we dont really know how his archtype-controller works... it could work via manipulating phases and reaching the desired goal or it could manipulate the minds of every single human on earth and destroy this "archetypes" from their subconscious....
at least, it seems like this is a possibility :/

*shrug* Who knows?
:D

I really doubt the Magic Gods are in the same situation. They predicted its failure after all.
they have been human and than turned gods, aleister also fails (shiage), it wouldnt be so unbelievable that they understaminate beings which didnt show their full power, aiwass only showed up once, in vol.19, and than he only had a dialogue (or two) with aleister, nothing that would mean indicate for the majins that aiwass is a great danger for them... exspecially if you look at othinus, shhe also looked down on others, afterall, she was a god :/ and the true-gemlin-majins are even more powerful (but still human (somehow) ) :cool:

And beings from the Aeon of Horus fighting against one another?
yeahh, but from what i understood how kamachi defines osiris and horus:
osiris:
is the thinking in two sides, like black and white, good, and bad, heaven and hell... this would include the magic gods scince magic is based on human history/legend/fairy tales/religion, most of the things, are based around the "yin-yang" concept...
horus:
i once saw a quote of aleister, from the LN (or real life :/ ), it said that, (i hope it comes close to the acual quote )
"the will should become the law of the world" (or something like that) (meaning (for me), that there isnt good/evil, yin/yang,darkness/light.... only the Will of a being to do what they want to do, nothing with morals or eithics.... )

if this is how kamachi/aleister defines the aeons, i dont see why/how a majin would reach the horus-aeon :/

Hiromin

2014-11-16, 05:27

Or another possibility is that the Magic Gods are in the Aeon of Horus themselves.
This would explain why they called Othinus a failure too. Failure here would mean that Othinus failed to reach the Aeon of Horus, unlike the other Magic Gods who did.

EDIT
this is how kamachi/aleister defines the aeons, i dont see why/how a majin would reach the horus-aeon :/
Unless they could actually have freed themselves from the set of laws that they were bound by previously, and have reached the state where they are only submitted to their own free will. :)
Also, about what Aleister said, I saw that somewhere too and I think you are right that Aeons are devided that way. But I forgot if it was To Aru's Aleister or the real one who said that :heh:

Doom_Paperclip

2014-11-17, 13:29

I have a few opinions on almost all the discussions that are currently ongoing here, so here's my two cents:

1) On Almighty Thor:

I believe that Almighty Thor is currently in the right spot on the chart. Being incredibly broken, he could wipe the floor with even Saint level characters, but at the same time he doesn't reach the levels of the absolute monsters like Fiamma, the Angels, the Magic Gods ect...

2) On 50/50 Othinus:

50/50 Othinus, on the other hand, seems to be ranked too low to me. Keep in mind that, her ultimate Gungnir and Crossbow attacks aside, 50/50 Othinus has every bit as much power as Othinus with Gungnir or the Fairy Spell. Those two do nothing to increase Othinus' power, they just help her to control the power she already has. As such, anything Othinus can do with Gungnir, she can do without it. That includes breaking the world and manipulating phases. It's just that, as long as she remained burdened with her 50/50 flaw, even rewriting the world wouldn't help her, as a calamity would soon befall her in order to balance her success.

3) On Almighty Thor vs 50/50 Othinus:

Almighty Thor is certainly amazing, but I don't believe he could stand up to Othinus, even with the 50/50 flaw. Keep in mind that Othinus has also shown the ability to move the world and, unlike Almighty Thor, she can move the heavens too via her Bone Boat spell. Granted, Almighty Thor's power acts automatically, whereas the Bone Boat does not, but Othinus should be able to negate Almighty Thor's power by forcefully twisting the power of the Bone Boat in order to hold the world still, much like she was able to forcefully twist the Fairy Spell in order to control her powers instead of losing them or how she and Ollerus can forcefully twist the Hliðskjálf spell, which ought to have no offensive power, into a mysterious attack that cannot be understood.

4) On Gungnir Birdway:

Does she even deserve to be on this chart? She can't actually use the Gungnir attack against anyone except Touma or Othinus, since her imitation Gungnir needs to extract the memories of the real Gungnir's attack in order to reproduce it.

In any case, assuming she can use it, Gungnir would certainly place her above Almighty Thor. Almighty Thor moves the world, but Gungnir first breaks the world and then breaks you by bashing you with its remains. By the time it is thrown, Almighty Thor would have no world to move. Not that Birdway would have any means of enjoying her victory, since she would either be broken apart together with the world or, in the best case scenario, stranded in the Black World with no hope of salvation.

5) On Dainsleif Marian:

She doesn't deserve to be above 50/50 Othinus. The only reason she ranks so high, if I understood correctly, is because Dainsleif can potentially destroy the world, but 50/50 Othinus can do that too.

World destroying aside, Marian summoned calamities are only imitations of the real things, pieces of phases shaped through people's fears rather than the genuine article, so they lack the power of entities like Gabriel and are beneath Saint level. The Vishnu Avatara attack would be quite deadly, but due to the limitations of Dainsleif, we do not know how powerful it is exactly. We do know, however, that it only lasted long enough to destroy the Marian's summons before dissipating. A Saint level opponent might be able to endure it long enough to survive.

6) On Pendex:

I won't argue her position on the chart. However, I doubt she can actually destroy a planet. She probably has knowledge on how to construct a spell to destroy a planet, but all spells of that scale, like Angel Fall or the Brahmastra, seem to require preparations for anyone who isn't on the level of an Archangel or above. I doubt even the 103000 grimoires would let her waive those requirements. She probably wouldn't be able to use one of them on the fly.

7) On Aiwass and the Aeons:

We currently lack enough information to produce accurate speculation. That doesn't mean we cannot speculate away and have a blast whilst doing it. Just don't expect to get within 1 light year of the truth.

Inept Forum User

2014-11-18, 08:49

Just wondering, how much would you say indirect effects and potential consequences of powers are included into calculating positions on the pyramid?

LevelSeven

2014-11-18, 14:44

Just wondering, how much would you say indirect effects and potential consequences of powers are included into calculating positions on the pyramid?

i would say: none!

aleister is depicted as one of the most powerful beings, this would mean that he has powers at top-tier, the problem is that at least one power (archetype-thhing) is messing around with phases and history and mankind and whatnot...

if he needed to kill the majins, maybe he would need to use this controller and erase thheir respective "religions", which would change the whole mankind....

or aiwass, the one time he showed up almost killed LO (and mostlikely the sisters) :/

or, othiinus, ahh, a good example is gabriel... one of his attacks would destroy 50% of the world, which COULD influence the moon and completly destroy the magical system which created him :/

and othher one-shot powers, like gungnir-birdway :/ exspecially since it can ONLY be used agaisnt othinus (touma didnt matter) and only with the help of Index :/

dark44

2014-12-02, 06:14

how is the accadamy rank system work strenght or time of reaching lvl 5 i mean if it is strength that mean misaki is stronger than lvl 6 and 7 or her mental power work on them but not the frist four?

LazyHunter

2014-12-02, 08:06

how is the accadamy rank system work strenght or time of reaching lvl 5 i mean if it is strength that mean misaki is stronger than lvl 6 and 7 or her mental power work on them but not the frist four?
The ranks of the level 5 are not related to strength, it's just their value to ongoing research. That's why Gunha is the number 7 despite being stronger than some of the higher numbers, nobody understands his power so they can't use it for research.

@LevelSeven

Birdway says that to use her mini-Gungnir she needed to use Index's grimoires and the image of Gungnir's destructive power from Othinus and Touma's heads, so probably either one would work since they both know and have seen how destructive Gungnir is. The novel says nothing about it being limited to targeting Othinus, though that is a moot point since it would destroy the world.
(Othinus and the boy both know how far a magic god can go, so I just have to draw it out of them. I can’t reproduce the gods or their weapons, but if I can draw the phenomenon of destruction from their heads, I’ll have the means to kill one.)

dark44

2014-12-02, 12:14

ok thanx for the info

LevelSeven

2014-12-02, 12:15

The ranks of the level 5 are not related to strength, it's just their value to ongoing research. That's why Gunha is the number 7 despite being stronger than some of the higher numbers, nobody understands his power so they can't use it for research.

to be honest, i have my issues with this part...
the only thing we saw is that gunha did go serious on misaka and misaka wasnt serious on gunha... i dont know if two serious and calm Lvl5's (pick one (except for #1 and #2)) would have this ending :/

what i mean is (that expect for accel and kakine who play in their own league),
im not so sure if misaka/mugino/misaki would lose...

misaka was "on par" with a saint, who moves mach 1 in their fight and she showed ways to deal with it...
misaki could maybe simply control him (nothing suggested that he can block it (maybe he simply needs Guts! for it :heh: ))
ok... mugino loses in my eyes... everything she does is shooting beams around... and her powers have two bg drawbacks :eyespin: i still wouldnt want to anger soeone who could literally cut me into two pieces in two seconds :heh:

@LevelSeven

Birdway says that to use her mini-Gungnir she needed to use Index's grimoires and the image of Gungnir's destructive power from Othinus and Touma's heads, so probably either one would work since they both know and have seen how destructive Gungnir is. The novel says nothing about it being limited to targeting Othinus, though that is a moot point since it would destroy the world.

the reason why i said, "not touma", was because of IB... it should block it right? i think since othinus was also unable to overwrite his mind :uhoh: he "should" be immune :p (somehow) :cool:

Fizix

2014-12-18, 12:22

The Washing Machine has its own Saint Killer attack.

Even if it made her cry in its first appearance, they later became the best of friends.

The washing machine is a tsundere?

Draco Spirit

2015-02-16, 18:43

I was just thinking about Worse the other day and realized she likely one of the more dangerous characters outside the really big guns like Touma and Accelerator.

Lets look at the specs shall we? ;)

Level 4 electromaster - While not as potent as the original Railgun, shes not far off. I'm kinda interested in how much weaker her hacking skills are and if she can do the whole spiderman impression and iron sand.... I suspect she can likely do both, if with less finesse than Railgun.

Testament knowledge - She has the same information in her head as the rest of the Sisters, which from what they've shown, is top class military commando training. Through the exact specs are arguable, Worse knows how to fight, both on arms level and tactical level.

Underworld Wits - She thinks like a member of the darkside. Another point that the fine details can be argued over, but she's pretty resistant to trickery, spying and underhand tricks.

Fully grown human - While easy to overlook, Worse is effectively adult in body, so her punches and kicks holds weight. Also firearm and gear designed for adult users is fully usable by Worse.

The interesting thing about these traits is they bleed into each other. Without her Esper abilities, she still being a well trained solider with the ability to move through the criminal underworld. Without her training, she still be a Level 4 electromaster with ability to play havoc with electronics and electric powers that's can used as a weapon and tool.

Combined and you got a solider with ways to counter electronic equipment and tactically change and move around the battlefield in unexpected ways, which makes her pretty dam dangerous in my book.

Ravagerblade

2015-02-16, 18:52

^ and fanfictioners want her to snog the loli-goth. lol

Unfortunately she's been reduced to being Accel's right hand (wo)man.

Draco Spirit

2015-02-17, 03:46

The Touma team up book needs to happen doesn't it? It be great to see Worse badarse skills from his POV.

zaikoi

2015-03-10, 13:07

We need updates on power chart type once Index NT 12 fully translated. :D

zaikoi

2015-07-17, 16:02

http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/66265

The power level ranking by Jap people
Kamisato is the strongest To aru character.

LazyHunter

2015-07-17, 17:16

http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/66265

The power level ranking by Jap people
Kamisato is the strongest To aru character.Wow, those are questionable rankings. I guess it's not surprising that trying to make a power level ranking in a series like this is doomed to fail and have inaccuracies considering how Index battles work. The western strength chart specifically notes it's not supposed to be a "who beats who" chart because of this very reason. But this rankings are baffling.

Why are Hanzou and Shuri above Sugitani or Amata? Misaki above any Powered Suit that can be unmanned it's also ridiculous. AIM Burst and Kiyama Harumi that low... What kind of criteria are they using? It can't be the character's destructive potential, because Konori Mii is an F and Seria is a D-, and the only thing Seria has above her in that regard is a gun, which still shouldn't put her above Sugitani or Amata or in the same tier than Worst and Kongou. Can't be "who beats who", Teshio Megumi is a good enough fighter to quickly beat Tsuchimikado, an expert martial artist, but is an E- below Kumokawa Maria E+. (whose esper ability is very limited). Touma is also way too high in the rankings if this is based on pure destruction ability, and he's above a lot of characters that could beat him handily if this is based on who beats who, like Tsuchimikado, any of the martial artists or a Powered Suit.

Yeah, I'm sticking with our Strenght Report Pyramid, at least that has enough sense to put Touma in the "Special" category, which should be the first step in any Index strength/power rankings.
I'll wait to see if Kamisato's spot in those rankings is deserved since the spoilers make it sound he's a normal high school student with a very powerful ability like Touma.

SimoHalo

2015-07-17, 17:17

http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/66265

The power level ranking by Jap people
Kamisato is the strongest To aru character.

I'm not sure if this completely correct:
EX
Kamisato Kakeru

SSSS
High Priest, Nuada, Tezcatlipoca, Proserpina, Niang-Niang, Nephthys, Zombie, Chimera
SSS
Aiwass, Aleister Crowley, Kihara Noukan
SS
Othinus
S+
Fiamma (God)
S
Fiamma (One-armed), Ollerus
S-
Aureolus, Birdway (With Gungnir)

A+
Misha
A
Kazakiri Hyouka, Almighty Thor, Kakine Teitoku (Beetle-05), Accelerator (White wings), Misaka Mikoto (Raijin), Rensa
A-
Index (John's Pen mode), Vento (Divine punishment), Carissa, Ureapaddy, Pantagruel

B+
Accelerator (Black wings)
B
Kakine Teitoku (Evolution), Accelerator, Acqua, Maiden of Versailles, Knight Leader (Curtana)
B-
Kakine Teitoku, Sogita Gunha, Kanzaki Kaori, Silvia, Brunhild, Thor, Fraulein, Birdway, Freyja, Knight Leader, Mjolnir

C+
Kukimoto Hibiki, Shokuhou Misaki (Exterior), Mugino Shizuri (Body Crystal), Terra, Vasilisa, Etzali, Female magician (Terunoa?), Cendrillon, Girl (Ymir's Ocean Girl), Vento (Queen's fleet), Tecpatl, Kihara Kagun
C
Naru, Misaka Mikoto, Seike, Mugino Shizuri, Shokuhou Misaki, Oriana, Musujime Awaki, Kihara Byouri, Kihara Gensei, Kuroyoru Umidori, Mark
C-
Ellasone, EquDarkmatter, Serpent of the Wheels??, Biagio, FIVE_Over (Outsider - Mental Out), FIVE_Over (Railgun), Richard
D+
Kamijou Touma, Stiyl, Aizono Mio, Therestina, Amakusa-style (Mutual strengthening), Wyss, AIM Burst, Sherry, Shutaura (mobile mecha), Tatemiya Saiji, Knight (Curtana), Bayloupe, Marian, Leasic, Yamisaka Ouma
D
Professor, Kiyama Harumi, Frenda, Komaba Ritoku, Powered suit, Automaton, Silvercross, Knight, Tsuchimikado Motoharu, Theodosia
D-
Shirai Kuroko, Kinuhata Saiai, Misaka Worst, Kouzaku Mitori, Itsuwa, Kumokawa Seria, Unabara Mitsuki, Ringlet curl girl, Kariche, Kongou Mitsuko, Saronia, Kushiro Katabira, Shutaura, Aureolus Dummy, Stephanie, Floris, Marie, Lessar

E+
Girl in the dress, Kirifu Megumi, Agnese Sanctis, Amakusa-style, Sasha, Kumokawa Maria, Jane, Xochitl, Tochtli, Mallybath, Fusou Ayame, Lucia
E
Misaka Imouto, Kaitabi Hatsuya, Saraku, Oumi Shuri, Hattori Hanzou, Fleiss
E-
Awatsuki Maaya, Wannai Kinuho, Angelene, Saflee, Teshio Megumi, Yomikawa Aiho, Kihara Amata, Kurozuma Wataru, Sugitani, Agnese Forces

F+
Hamazura Shiage, Kuruwa, Equal Speed, Okahara Ryouta
F
Konori Mii, Mioshi Yoshiko, Jufuku Miho
F-
Saten Ruiko

Ravagerblade

2015-07-17, 17:36

Wasn't Touma being a boss vs a powered suit'd Hamazura back in NT12 there Lazy? :P

LazyHunter

2015-07-17, 17:51

Wasn't Touma being a boss vs a powered suit'd Hamazura back in NT12 there Lazy? :PThat was an exposed Power Lifter he could mess up with his tricks, like using the oxygen tank and his indestructible jacket on the unprotected joints. The novel explicitly says it's far from the military Powered Suits.

An HsPS-15 would destroy him nine times out of ten, and the tenth one would probably be him escaping.

@SimoHalo
'Katena' is Curtana, and the Red Flood girl probably refers to Ymir's Ocean Girl. Seeing Kukimoto Hibiki so far up in the rankings reminds me of the spoilers Js06 had translated about how she kicks Mikoto's ass, only losing because the Sisters come to help her. I still wonder how in the hell is she a Level 0 with her ability, though apparently she's boosting her calculation ability.

bakato

2015-07-17, 18:27

I don't think Kamisato should really be up there. I mean the gods didn't even put up a fight so who knows how it could've gone.

Kuroageha

2015-07-17, 18:47

Powered Swuits are obviously non unmanned ones the ones used on Avignon

Or else it would be stated as AIs controlled machines.

zaikoi

2015-07-17, 18:48

Correction on the birdway.
Birdway (With Gungnir)

LazyHunter

2015-07-17, 19:09

Powered Swuits are obviously non unmanned ones the ones used on Avignon

Or else it would be stated as AIs controlled machines.Powered Suits can also be used as unmanned weapons. Some unspecified ones attacked Acqua back in OT16 (the only known Powered Suits back then were the HsPS-15 and the older MPS-79 models at the reformatory, so the model was probably the HsPS-15, we would need Index III for confirmation). The Five_Over Railgun can also act without a pilot.

Kuroageha

2015-07-17, 21:00

Yeah, but the text from the chart is obvious to what is refering to.

BladeMancer

2015-07-17, 22:05

Why is Kamisato the highest? He seems to be Touma level and his power seems to be effective on only magic gods.

SoloPanda

2015-07-18, 01:27

Why is Kamisato the highest? He seems to be Touma level and his power seems to be effective on only magic gods.

I read the EX as something of an outside the norm or a chart breaker. It breaks the power levels of the chart because he can effectively defeat a magic god on the other hand Saten could probably beat the hell out of him. So he invalidates the nature of Strongest/Weakest in the chart. This is just speculation and i used Saten because she's just in my head right now... and talking to me through the tv.... this could be a problem >.<

SimoHalo

2015-07-18, 03:46

BladeMancer

2015-07-18, 04:04

I read the EX as something of an outside the norm or a chart breaker. It breaks the power levels of the chart because he can effectively defeat a magic god on the other hand Saten could probably beat the hell out of him. So he invalidates the nature of Strongest/Weakest in the chart. This is just speculation and i used Saten because she's just in my head right now... and talking to me through the tv.... this could be a problem >.<
I have a theory about why Kamisato is ranked so highly on the list. It's about the nature of his power
If imagine breaker negates supernatural phenomena, then World rejector should create supernatural phenomena. Certainly if that's the case Kamisato can be placed somewhere high on the list since he can create unique magic/esper powers and replicate existing ones. He's essentially Rensa on steroids but it's only limited to his right hand

Also thinking about if Kamisato only had the ability to teleport certain beings that would be kind of lack luster. The ability to create and replicate all supernatural phenomena is more interesting and also more logical.

Takeshi senpai

2015-07-18, 04:46

But a magic god can do that through the powers of phases, no?

LevelSeven

2015-07-18, 12:00

But a magic god can do that through the powers of phases, no?
not really, they dont create specific powers but use phases to change the layout of the world... therefore they are somehow able to reproduce other supernatural phenomens :/ at least this is what i understood...

Now a question: touma should be EX too... where is his "allmighty" dragon mode listed?

Aiwass should be way higher based on hype(together with aleister)

Kamisato has mostlikely (like touma) a specific ability whoch only works on one kind of thing, therefore he is seems OP,
mostlikely the volume will show him in a h2h fight with touma since he is useless otherwise, therefore he actually has some reason to say "normal highschool boy" because he is completly normal in anything except the "sending away of majins"....

shmaster

2015-07-18, 16:59

SoloPanda

2015-07-18, 21:54

Before we argue about Kamisato, we should wonder why Noukan is below the magic gods, when he killed two of them by brute force, and one of those two is a full power magic god to boot.

Sigh, 2ch rankings, they never make sense.

In regards to Noukan, besides just being an outstanding dog:

He was able to wield a large portion of Aleister's power to preform this task. If Noukan was fighting alone he probably wouldn't match a magic god. However, because Aleister let him use his power like a weapon, he was successful. In this case alone, without aid from Aleister, Noukan is inferior to a magic god.

shmaster

2015-07-19, 15:47

Doesn't change much. Just in that case, Aleister should be put above the magic gods instead.
May it be Aleister or Noukan, either one of them is clearly above the magic gods.

LevelSeven

2015-07-19, 16:03

Doesn't change much. Just in that case, Aleister should be put above the magic gods instead.
May it be Aleister or Noukan, either one of them is clearly above the magic gods.
aleister is above a induvidual full powered majin...but he loses against the whole group...
aiwass is his mentor so he should be above or on par with aleister...

if i remember correctly nouken is a counterplan against magic, not majins... i think he isnt suited to fight them head on without big risks of his own survivel :/

shmaster

2015-07-19, 16:59

SoloPanda

2015-07-19, 17:48

I don't see the point in that either.
Like we never treated Gods Right Seat as a group, why are we treating the magic gods as a group now.
Especially when they are different in opinion. Neph: "High Priest does not represent us."

I see your point. I understand that Aleister is as strong or stronger than the magic gods and so is Aiwass. However, my argument was merely that Noukan in not stronger than either of them. What Aleister did for Noukan would be the eqiuvlent of Accelerator wrapping Hamazura in the power of redirection and reflection while he fights Misaka. While it may allow Hamazura to win, the granting of power in no way increases Hamazura's power.

This chart in general is extremely flawed and there is no reason for the fanbase to take it this seriously. It looks like someone just randomly had a crack theory in and wrote down power levels based on nothing more than speculation. Some of the levels are completely wrong.

zaikoi

2015-07-20, 23:54

I'm not sure if this completely correct:
EX
Kamisato Kakeru

SSSS
High Priest, Nuada, Tezcatlipoca, Proserpina, Niang-Niang, Nephthys, Zombie, Chimera
SSS
Aiwass, Aleister Crowley, Kihara Noukan
SS
Othinus
S+
Fiamma (God)
S
Fiamma (One-armed), Ollerus
S-
Aureolus, Birdway (With Gungnir)

A+
Misha
A
Kazakiri Hyouka, Almighty Thor, Kakine Teitoku (Beetle-05), Accelerator (White wings), Misaka Mikoto (Raijin), Rensa
A-
Index (John's Pen mode), Vento (Divine punishment), Carissa, Ureapaddy, Pantagruel

B+
Accelerator (Black wings)
B
Kakine Teitoku (Evolution), Accelerator, Acqua, Maiden of Versailles, Knight Leader (Curtana)
B-
Kakine Teitoku, Sogita Gunha, Kanzaki Kaori, Silvia, Brunhild, Thor, Fraulein, Birdway, Freyja, Knight Leader, Mjolnir

C+
Kukimoto Hibiki, Shokuhou Misaki (Exterior), Mugino Shizuri (Body Crystal), Terra, Vasilisa, Etzali, Female magician (Terunoa?), Cendrillon, Girl (Ymir's Ocean Girl), Vento (Queen's fleet), Tecpatl, Kihara Kagun
C
Naru, Misaka Mikoto, Seike, Mugino Shizuri, Shokuhou Misaki, Oriana, Musujime Awaki, Kihara Byouri, Kihara Gensei, Kuroyoru Umidori, Mark
C-
Ellasone, EquDarkmatter, Serpent of the Wheels??, Biagio, FIVE_Over (Outsider - Mental Out), FIVE_Over (Railgun), Richard
D+
Kamijou Touma, Stiyl, Aizono Mio, Therestina, Amakusa-style (Mutual strengthening), Wyss, AIM Burst, Sherry, Shutaura (mobile mecha), Tatemiya Saiji, Knight (Curtana), Bayloupe, Marian, Leasic, Yamisaka Ouma
D
Professor, Kiyama Harumi, Frenda, Komaba Ritoku, Powered suit, Automaton, Silvercross, Knight, Tsuchimikado Motoharu, Theodosia
D-
Shirai Kuroko, Kinuhata Saiai, Misaka Worst, Kouzaku Mitori, Itsuwa, Kumokawa Seria, Unabara Mitsuki, Ringlet curl girl, Kariche, Kongou Mitsuko, Saronia, Kushiro Katabira, Shutaura, Aureolus Dummy, Stephanie, Floris, Marie, Lessar

E+
Girl in the dress, Kirifu Megumi, Agnese Sanctis, Amakusa-style, Sasha, Kumokawa Maria, Jane, Xochitl, Tochtli, Mallybath, Fusou Ayame, Lucia
E
Misaka Imouto, Kaitabi Hatsuya, Saraku, Oumi Shuri, Hattori Hanzou, Fleiss
E-
Awatsuki Maaya, Wannai Kinuho, Angelene, Saflee, Teshio Megumi, Yomikawa Aiho, Kihara Amata, Kurozuma Wataru, Sugitani, Agnese Forces

F+
Hamazura Shiage, Kuruwa, Equal Speed, Okahara Ryouta
F
Konori Mii, Mioshi Yoshiko, Jufuku Miho
F-
Saten Ruiko

I list analyse them one by one. They forgot Touma's Dragon arm Imagine Breaker.
It's confirmed that it's inaccurate.

SoloPanda

2015-07-21, 00:01

I list analyse them one by one. They forgot Touma's Dragon arm Imagine Breaker.
It's confirmed that it's inaccurate.

The sadly still nameless Ringlet Curl Girl is on the list.. has anyone ever seen her power?

zaikoi

2015-07-21, 01:32

Let's ignore the Japanese ranking. I think that it's nonsense.

This is more accurate without Kamisato & Kihara Noukan for now.
http://i.imgur.com/fwoGgAl.jpg

zaikoi

2015-07-21, 05:49

Kamachi nerf too many overpowered level characters.
Accelerator
Magic Gods
Gunha secret potential
Touma's Imagine Breaker hidden potential (Invisible thing)
Thor in full strength
Fiamma
Index
Aiwass
Aleister
Awaki without any trauma & also potentail to be 8th level 5
Takitsubo potential to be 8th level 5
Ollerus almost to be become Magic God.
Academy City hidden technology like Gravity bomb to be able destroy entire earth
Hidden Level 5 rank 6th
Gemstones
Acqua lost his full power since World War 3
Anymore? :D

allfictions

2015-07-21, 07:12

Kamachi nerf too many overpowered level characters.
Magic Gods
If he didn't in this case, there would be no story. Once you introduce omnipotence, either your character can't do anything to the plot due to their ennemies being all-powerful, or the plot can get eaily resolved in 1 page if it's the good guys who are omnipotent.
Gunha secret potential
That doesn't count as a nerf.
Touma's Imagine Breaker hidden potential (Invisible thing)
Neither does this.
Thor in full strength
Dude, do you know what nerf is? It's when a powerful character get his powerful ability removed from them. Thor's Almighty mode was not removed, and he can still use it.
Index
This happened as her backstory, before the series even began! That's not a nerf.
Aiwass
Same as Index.
Aleister
No.
Awaki without any trauma & also potentail to be 8th level 5
Same as Index. Seriously.
Takitsubo potential to be 8th level 5
She didn't even reach it, which is a prerequisite of being nerfed is having the ability that will be removed in the 1st place.
Ollerus almost to be become Magic God.
Again, same as Index.
Academy City hidden technology like Gravity bomb to be able destroy entire earth
Now you're not making any sense.
Hidden Level 5 rank 6th
*facepalm*
Gemstones
That also does not count as a nerf.
Anymore? :D
Actual examples of nerfing: Accelerator, Vento, Aureolus, Acqua, Fiamma, Othinus, Gremlin. Not examples of nerfing: everything else.

LevelSeven

2015-07-21, 07:20

Actual examples of nerfing: Accelerator, Vento, Aureolus, Acqua, Fiamma, Othinus, Gremlin. Not examples of nerfing: everything else.
you forgot ollerus after being hit by the fairy spell... he is either on normal size withoutpowers or he is like othinus (or he is dead)...
EDIT: kakine too...

zaikoi

2015-07-21, 07:22

Actual examples of nerfing: Accelerator, Vento, Aureolus, Acqua, Fiamma, Othinus, Gremlin. Not examples of nerfing: everything else.

Thanks for clarify.
How about Kakine taken over by Beetle 05?

zaikoi

2015-07-21, 07:31

Wait no...

I checked the meaning again of nerfing.
Nerfing means to weaken or make less dangerous & not removing their full potential.

Tartare25

2015-07-21, 11:34

How about Kakine taken over by Beetle 05?
Beetle-05 technically is Kakine and still can use all of his matter powers.
Even like this he is stronger than Kakine when he is originally introduced.

LevelSeven

2015-07-21, 13:41

Beetle-05 technically is Kakine and still can use all of his matter powers.
if he uses to much original kakine will take over...therefore he is in some sense nerfed...
Even like this he is stronger than Kakine when he is originally introduced.
you mean beetle>Vol.15 kakine? or beetle >NT6 kakine?

Tartare25

2015-07-21, 16:47

you mean beetle>Vol.15 kakine? or beetle >NT6 kakine?
Battle royal Kakine. In the end it isn't real downgrade if it is on top of great upgrade.

Kuroageha

2015-07-21, 19:54

I put them both on a similar standing.

Even though white has got a jobber role.

LevelSeven

2015-07-22, 03:58

Again, AC fought normal Russia, not the Magic Side. The Magic Side's losses came from other sources, not from AC.

we are talking about science side vs magic side... even if the losses of the magic side didnt come from AC, the people who do it are belonging to them even if they arent scientists...

in the first plac i think we have a big misunderstanding of what you and I define as science side, (or maybe not :p):

for me, the science side includes touma and co. even if they arent scientifical they still belong to this side...

you mentioned several times that magic used by chars doesnt make them usuable, like aleister or nouken but i didnt intend to talk about "only science(via technology/espers)" vs "only magic"...

im talking about the two sides, as example, motoharu belongs to the science side even if he is technically a magician-esper-hybrid... etzali is a 100% magician but i still include him to the science side...

i know that science pales in comparison to magic, at least right now, we dont know how high the powerlvls will grow after kamachi gets to Lvl6 or 7 or 8 :heh:

so, before answering the other points i wanted to make sure that we start with the same picture in our minds :D (sorry,seems like my last post didnt show this did it? i went along witht he flow and forgot what i actually meant :( ) :)

SoloPanda

2015-07-22, 05:41

LevelSeven

2015-07-22, 06:29

It appears that for you science side = Scientists + Espers + Minions + anyone living in or fighting for Academy city.

While Magic Side = Leaders (Pope types) + Magicians + Footsoldiers + Anyone Following or fighting for the various Magic groups involved in the Magic side.

In the case of WWIII Laura and Necessarius would have fallen under the Science side i believe because they allied with AC and Opposed the rest of the Magic Side.
this would fit...

i mean, we are talking about two sides fighting each other, the origin of their powers doesnt matter...
and how i understood dniv, she/he said that the science side needs some power up... but i only see that they lack feats in order to be seen as equals, if not they should had been wiped out long ago...

LazyHunter

2015-07-22, 08:53

we are talking about science side vs magic side... even if the losses of the magic side didnt come from AC, the people who do it are belonging to them even if they arent scientists...

in the first plac i think we have a big misunderstanding of what you and I define as science side, (or maybe not :p):

for me, the science side includes touma and co. even if they arent scientifical they still belong to this side... You are backpedalling. Your statement was that AC stomped the Magic Side on WWIII. 'AC= feet, magic side=ant...' was your actual statement here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5599587#post5599587). I called you out on this false statement and explained the difference in power between the sides once you remove what some people call 'god tiers'; which would be taking out of the equation the Magic Gods from the Magic Side and Aleister, Aiwass and Noukan from the Science Side. Any attentive reader of the series should see the obvious outcome of a fight betwen the two sides once we remove those few characters. Even if you take away Fiamma and Ollerus the Magic Side would still be superior.

And no, Russian's army doesn't count as Magic Side by the same reasons USA doesn't.

Also, bold is completely wrong. The big loss the Magic Side suffered in AC was GRS, and I'm going to repeat what I posted in my other post that you ignored.

Vento: Defeated by Kazakiri and Touma. The only one you could say the Science Side plays an important role because of Kazakiri.
Terra: Defeated by Touma, who was being helped by Itsuwa and Motoharu.
Acqua: Rolled over AC's military, defeated by members of the Magic Side with a little help of Touma at the end of the fight.
Fiamma. His defeat should fall to the whole world depowering his Holy Right + the magicians who interfered with him like Acqua, Vasilisa, Laura, Matthai, etc.. + Accel and Kazakiri fighting Gabriel and Accel reflecting Telesma wave + Touma defeating him in person. Aleister shows up afterwards to stomp him.

As you can see, the Science Side's role in two of the four is non-existent. The only people that play a role on the other two are Kazakiri, Accel and Aleister, three of their strongest members. Accel wasn't following AC in WWIII, same for Kazakiri. Aleister is a god tier and comes from the Magic Side, being the main reason the Science Side exists and hasn't been destroyed yet. Claiming Aliester's strength is something standard in the Science Side is silly, he's an outlier. At least there's more than one Magic God.

you mentioned several times that magic used by chars doesnt make them usuable, like aleister or nouken but i didnt intend to talk about "only science(via technology/espers)" vs "only magic"...
I didn't say that it makes them unusable. I said that the biggest fishes in the Science Side are related to magic.

im talking about the two sides, as example, motoharu belongs to the science side even if he is technically a magician-esper-hybrid... etzali is a 100% magician but i still include him to the science side...Motoharu is a wild card, his true loyalties are to himself and his step-sister. He acts for both sides, you can't claim him for one side for your convenience, same with Touma.
i know that science pales in comparison to magic, at least right now, we dont know how high the powerlvls will grow after kamachi gets to Lvl6 or 7 or 8 :heh:Level 6 is theoretical and, by common sense, shouldn't be included in power discussions until it actually appears in the novels. It's the same reason Index's, Gunha's Takitsubo's or Awaki's potentials should be left out of any similar discussions until we can see them in action.
so, before answering the other points i wanted to make sure that we start with the same picture in our minds :D (sorry,seems like my last post didnt show this did it? i went along witht he flow and forgot what i actually meant :( ) :)
Again, reread the series. I hate to say this, but you seem to have an incomplete and biased version of past events and characters that's making this discussion worthless. Once you've done that and have proper counter-arguments based in the actual novels we can continue this discussion.

LevelSeven

2015-07-22, 14:25

You are backpedalling. Your statement was that AC stomped the Magic Side on WWIII. 'AC= feet, magic side=ant...' was your actual statement here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5599587#post5599587). I called you out on this false statement and explained the difference in power between the sides once you remove what some people call 'god tiers'; which would be taking out of the equation the Magic Gods from the Magic Side and Aleister, Aiwass and Noukan from the Science Side.
yes, sorry, i had the wrong word combined with the wrong meaning...
science side won (btw, LN also called AC the winner: “Gremlin and Othinus want to do something major to Academy City, the victors of this age. )...

......im going out of my point again.... lazy, what i intended to say with my post about the "science side chars are right below the majins but lack feats" doesnt only include chars who are scientific, people who use magic are still involved... people like laura since she works with them (even if she has hidden plans)...
birdway too... and touma of course.... this is why i stopped with the responding to your other points since it seemed like you misunderstood what i wanted to say... but, yeah, magicians of fiamma lvl are above all scientific science chars and around abstract-techno-babble-chars...

i agree IF we go by: magic vs science, but magic side vs science side isnt like that... since the story already showed that magicians can still work for the science side despite the fact that they are magicians...
And no, Russian's army doesn't count as Magic Side by the same reasons USA doesn't.
this is why i wanted to get a clear understanding, i see them as magic side, at least in WW3... they fought with them...
Also, bold is completely wrong. The big loss the Magic Side suffered in AC was GRS, and I'm going to repeat what I posted in my other post that you ignored.
im not ignoring it, wll technically i did but before some hugh post-snake happens i wanted to clarify that you didnt misunderstand me... not magic vs science...
Vento: Defeated by Kazakiri and Touma. The only one you could say the Science Side plays an important role because of Kazakiri.
Terra: Defeated by Touma, who was being helped by Itsuwa and Motoharu.
Acqua: Rolled over AC's military, defeated by members of the Magic Side with a little help of Touma at the end of the fight.
Fiamma. His defeat should fall to the whole world depowering his Holy Right + the magicians who interfered with him like Acqua, Vasilisa, Laura, Matthai, etc.. + Accel and Kazakiri fighting Gabriel and Accel reflecting Telesma wave + Touma defeating him in person. Aleister shows up afterwards to stomp him.
touma belongs to science side...motoharu, accel and military too...
BIB: i forgot them...at least i forgot the others except acqua :D

btw, i need to correct myself, not kanzaki equal to gabriel but kazakiri because before accel showed up the science-angel held himself pretty well against the angel... but they only won after gabriel got depowered :/
I didn't say that it makes them unusable. I said that the biggest fishes in the Science Side are related to magic.
this was what caused the misunderstanding, they dont need to be scientific in order to be with with science side...
Again, reread the series. I hate to say this, but you seem to have an incomplete and biased version of past events and characters that's making this discussion worthless. Once you've done that and have proper counter-arguments based in the actual novels we can continue this discussion.
do i look like i onyl read accels parts?
if yes i wouldnt have even a idea of the happenings of NT8-13...
all i said is that they are less interesting for me (except for aleister stuff) and magic side the most... im still reading them, but try to keep details of chars who dont interest you a bit... it is hard...
and yes, this makes my view biased...

LazyHunter

2015-07-22, 16:02

[tldr=lazy]
yes, sorry, i had the wrong word combined with the wrong meaning...
science side won (btw, LN also called AC the winner: “Gremlin and Othinus want to do something major to Academy City, the victors of this age. )...The Science Side "won" because they had the help of the Magic Side and Touma, otherwise Fiamma would have continued his plan until Aleister decided to go out and beat him himself. Obviously, the results of the war have Necessarius and AC as the victors of WWIII since Russia, France and the Vatican surrendered, that's politics.
......im going out of my point again.... lazy, what i intended to say with my post about the "science side chars are right below the majins but lack feats" doesnt only include chars who are scientific, people who use magic are still involved... people like laura since she works with them (even if she has hidden plans)...
birdway too... and touma of course.... this is why i stopped with the responding to your other points since it seemed like you misunderstood what i wanted to say... but, yeah, magicians of fiamma lvl are above all scientific science chars and around abstract-techno-babble-chars... You keep repeating this. This is wrong, totally wrong. Touma and IB don't belong to either side, he just resides in AC, he has been manipulated by both sides, so stop putting him in the Science Side. Laura and Birdway part of the Science Side? Sorry, but that's obviously wrong, they're clearly members of the Magic Side.
i agree IF we go by: magic vs science, but magic side vs science side isnt like that... since the story already showed that magicians can still work for the science side despite the fact that they are magicians...Magicians that work for the Science Side: Motoharu, Etzali and 3 more Aztec magicians. Motoharu is a wild card like Touma who belongs to multiple organizations in both sides. You count him in both sides or in none of them. Etzali and the other 3 Aztec magicians were there as spies and worked for AC under threats (Etzali) or as cover (the others). They stopped doing it the first chance they got.

this is why i wanted to get a clear understanding, i see them as magic side, at least in WW3... they fought with them... Collaboration doesn't mean they belong to the same side. As I've said, just because Necessarius is currently an ally of AC doesn't make it part of the Science Side.
im not ignoring it, wll technically i did but before some hugh post-snake happens i wanted to clarify that you didnt misunderstand me... not magic vs science...

touma belongs to science side...motoharu, accel and military too...
BIB: i forgot them...at least i forgot the others except acqua :DNope, Touma and Motoharu belong to both or to neither, depending how you want to look at them. Accel and AC's military are part of the Science Side, but Accel didn't fight a single member of GRS and AC's military got stomped and didn't contribute to Acqua's defeat (or to any of the others save Fiamma, where the whole world collaborated).
btw, i need to correct myself, not kanzaki equal to gabriel but kazakiri because before accel showed up the science-angel held himself pretty well against the angel... but they only won after gabriel got depowered :/
That makes more sense. Kazakiri and Accel could stall a nerfed Gabriel, who's just 1 of 4 archangels, who are just one type of magical beings in the Magic Side. Can you see why I said the Science Side is clearly weaker once you remove god tiers in both sides?
this was what caused the misunderstanding, they dont need to be scientific in order to be with with science side...I unerstand you perfectly well, it's you who don't understand my point: the best assets of the Science Side are not entirely scientifical (counting esper powers as science) . I never said they weren't part of the Science Side.

do i look like i onyl read accels parts?
if yes i wouldnt have even a idea of the happenings of NT8-13...
all i said is that they are less interesting for me (except for aleister stuff) and magic side the most... im still reading them, but try to keep details of chars who dont interest you a bit... it is hard...
and yes, this makes my view biased...Yes, to be honest your misunderstandings of basic things in the series not related to him make it look like you only pay close attention to his parts.

Make no mistake, I don't blame you because you like Accel over other characters or because you follow this series because of him and a few more characters. I myself have read other series while only being interested in two or three members of the cast, so I'd be a hypocrite if I criticized you for that. You can keep doing whatever you want. But don't twist facts to support your points, that I can criticize.

The point is that the Science Side is generally weaker than the Magic Side. It's nothing bad, so you don't have to try to make excuses for it. Their god tiers are at the same level or stronger than the Magic Side's, but those are exceptions. Divine Punishment Vento could have soloed all known Level 5s + almost everyone else in AC in OT, and so far if she had her original power back she could still do the same to all in NT except Kakine since he likely doesn't need air anymore. She's just one of the top tiers of the Magic Side.

There's two reasons the Science Side still exists: the main one is Aleister, the other is the fact the Magic Side is a lot bigger than the Science Side with several factions with conflicting ideologies and goals, which prevents them from making an united front against AC.

We all are biased towards fiction, opinions are subjective and everyone has things they like and things they don't.

SoloPanda

2015-07-23, 00:48

I think the moment Touma tries to casually destroy a comet while standing on the surface, He rockets back up to the top of the list of Power levels. What the heck was he going to do!!??? Darn dog getting in the way!

LevelSeven

2015-07-23, 03:24

You keep repeating this. This is wrong, totally wrong. Touma and IB don't belong to either side, he just resides in AC, he has been manipulated by both sides, so stop putting him in the Science Side. Laura and Birdway part of the Science Side? Sorry, but that's obviously wrong, they're clearly members of the Magic Side.

in a sitaution where europe fights almost the entire asia continent and japan helps europe, on which side does japan stand?

this is the same... what you dont understand is that sides arent defined by the powers you use but simply on which side you are...
we call them science and magic side but it was never like that... people of the magic side like styil use papers and a printer...
techno-babble-science borders supernatural-powers since the beginning of the story (the espers, "brain in a fridge", "brain in animal" etc etc)...

touma belongs to the science side since he fights with them, and if you want to say that he also fights against them sometimes than on which side would ITEM or accel belong?
and, no, archetype controller belongs to the science side, doesnt matter if it is a 100% magial artifact... clearly, this would make it magical...but not associate it with the magic side...

i hope you understand me now because i think that it isnt useful to discuss more if we disagree about "what belongs to science side and what not"...

btw, i agree, magic >>>>> science, this was always the case...

LazyHunter

2015-07-23, 08:43

in a sitaution where europe fights almost the entire asia continent and japan helps europe, on which side does japan stand?This is not about countries. A country can have elements of both sides or neither, like the US. And that argument is nonsense: Japan would still be an Asian country, it wouldn't suddenly become European.
this is the same... what you dont understand is that sides arent defined by the powers you use but simply on which side you are...
we call them science and magic side but it was never like that... people of the magic side like styil use papers and a printer...
techno-babble-science borders supernatural-powers since the beginning of the story (the espers, "brain in a fridge", "brain in animal" etc etc)...I never said that. Your argument here makes no sense. No matter how much you refuse to accept them these are the facts (not opinions, facts, so don't bother trying to refute them unless you bring proof from the novels, opinions don't count when you discuss facts):

Being allied to a faction doesn't make you a member of that faction: Just because Necessarius is allied with AC doesn't make it part of the Science Side. It's clearly Magic Side. US is not a part of the Magic Side just because it was allied with it in the anti-Gremlin coalition. Birdway is not Science Side just because she helped Touma, Accel and Hamazura, she's the boss of a magic cabal and thus, obviously and irrefutably, Magic Side. Laura is Magic Side.

It's not about their power being supernatural or not, it's about the organization they belong and the source of their powers. Using a printer and paper doesn't make you qualify for the Science Side. Using magic + having a magical artifact + belonging to a magical organization clearly means you are from the Magic Side.

touma belongs to the science side since he fights with them, and if you want to say that he also fights against them sometimes than on which side would ITEM or accel belong? Touma belongs to neither side. His power belongs to neither. He has worked for and against both, and has shown no clear loyalty to any organization, just to individual persons in both sides. Just because he lives in AC doesn't make him a member of the Science Side, the same way a random London citizen doesn't belong to the Magic Side. Same can be said about Motoharu.

Accel and ITEM may have rebelled against AC in ocassion, but they have never worked for the Magic Side like Touma and Motoharu have done, so they are Science Side. So that argument is worthless.
and, no, archetype controller belongs to the science side, doesnt matter if it is a 100% magial artifact... clearly, this would make it magical...but not associate it with the magic side...I don't know why you bring this up, stop making things up. I never said that the Achetype Controller belonged to the Magic Side. When I was talking about taking the god-tiers out of the equation you said AC still had the Archetype Controller. As far as we know it belongs to Aleister, so if we remove him there's no Archetype Controller, just like Othinus's Gungnir goes away with her.

Seriously, LevelSeven, you're trying to go against facts and common sense. Either your understanding of the series is horrible and you refuse to admit you're wrong when I explain things to you or you're trolling. If your next reply is in the same line I won't bother to reply to you anymore and I'll consider you have given up trying to make sense.

LevelSeven

2015-07-23, 08:53

This is not about countries. A country can have elements of both sides or neither, like the US. And that argument is nonsense: Japan would still be an Asian country, it wouldn't suddenly become European.
magic people also doesnt suddenly become scientific...yes, the magicians would still have magical powers etc but work with/for the science side...
even if japan will still be a asian country they will stand on the europeans side... i dont know why this is so hard to understand...
Seriously, LevelSeven, you're trying to go against facts and common sense. Either your understanding of the series is horrible and you refuse to admit you're wrong when I explain things to you or you're trolling. If your next reply is in the same line I won't bother to reply to you anymore and I'll consider you have given up trying to make sense.
than give up since it simply seems like im unable to let you understand what i mean with difference between magic/scienc side and magic/science...

Draco Spirit

2015-07-25, 04:25

One thing the chart really doesn't show is that To Aru universe isn't really a pyramid of badarseness, but more a case of rock, paper scissors.

The best example likely being Touma, who petty much the ultimate counter to any opponent who relies on supernatural power, but struggles against Saints and other users of conventional force.

It gets even worse when you realise some of the characters 'power' is tricky to measure. For example Birdway's personal power likely in line with a Saints, but because she's the head of a fairly large organisation, she has loads of underlings and connections. She also a really devious chess-master sort of character who can control others into doing what she wants.

dniv

2015-07-25, 11:20

devil_slayer

2015-08-02, 10:50

allfictions

2015-08-03, 12:16

i have been wondering for now is crowley stronger than a magic god ? i am talking about 1 vs 1 match

some says that high priest owned crowley but i remember that crowley did take on 3 magic gods at once destroyed there universe and still make it alive from there
so shouldn't crowley be able to beat magic god ?
He didn't take 3 Magic Gods, he took on the entire Gremlin, with the unnamed and unseen Magic Gods, and yes, he was owned as he came back with a third of his body burned. Even if his plan was to trick them and weaken them using their own spell, that was cleverness, not raw strenght. At best, we could say an hypothetical 1-on-1 fight would end up in a draw.

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-03, 18:43

^I disagree. I don't believe we know enough about Aleister to accurately define his power level. We know he's somewhere in the range of a full Magic God's power, but we don't know if that means he's above or below them.

Personally, I believe he's at least slightly above a single full powered Magic God in combat terms. His ability to exist at multiple locations at once (without having to split or multiply his actual body) is something not even the Magic Gods have managed to replicate yet. He's also proven that he has mastered techniques to destroy the powers of Magic Gods and kill them using principles they don't understand, whereas he was able to fully understand their abilities. Generally speaking, in TAMNI, the more mysterious your power is, the more powerful you are.

Kuroageha

2015-08-03, 22:40

It's stated enough though.

Since vol.22 it's Aleister says that compared to Fiamma the only difference is the way they use their power, so regarding raw power they should be similar, what made them different was the "format".

Tiken

2015-08-04, 03:19

While he may have used some unknown technique to weaken the Magic Gods, there is one thing that is known to kill magicians in general. Based on this, I think what actually ended up killing both the "High Preist" & "Zombie" was a heavily concentrated dose of AIM. That would explain why Noukan needed that giant drill to kill him. The drill was probably used specifically to bore into the comet, and I'm guessing a high dose of AIM is what actually ended up killing him in the end (Again, thats just a guess.) It probably wasn't even magic related at all, I bet Aleister was simply channeling AIM into the drill. I mean, think about it. AIM can be enough to kill a normal magician, and the Magic Gods were weakened ahead of time. That might have been his actual plan from the very start, since it involved killing all three of them.

I forget, how did he beat Fiamma again? Did it even show how he lost, I can't even remember what happened between them, besides what was said.

tsunade666

2015-08-04, 03:50

No, AIM can't kill a normal magician. its not like holy damage devils crap.

AIM can only damage a magician if a magician used magic in a AIM concentrated field.

Because AIM alters the natural law of the world. It changes the "format" so when a magician force his magic into it. It will clashed with the AIM field format. The rules and laws will clash and will result in damaging the magician.

AIM alone won't damage the Magician.

Like how mana or a highly concentrated field of magic won't effect an esper.

Esper forcibly alters the reality with their own reality so even with a mana rich field they will be fine.

But if an esper uses a magic with different sets of rules and laws. They will be damage because it will be against their own natural world/personal reality/AIM.

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-04, 05:44

^I'm also skeptical of the AIM theory, but we can't discount it outright. It's true that AIM will not inherently affect a normal Magician, but a Magic God does not count as normal. A normal Magician may do magical things, but a Magic God is magical, right down to their internal organs. Magic permeates their body and manifests through their every act and gesture. Here's proof:
The entire lake emitted a blinding blue light and it quickly condensed into a single point within the icy water she had scooped up in her hands. A sphere the size of a ping pong ball appeared in her hand, but it was very different from a human eye. The blue sphere was hard like a jewel. No matter how a human organ was preserved, it would not obtain that color. The invisible structure of a human and magic god may have been fundamentally different.
“The gathering of Magic Gods known as Gremlin could also be called the keyboard connected to the world and to destiny. Simply having someone push or pull at it is enough to distort the current age. It isn’t an issue of any individual. We are all bringing about change. And we do so whether we continue forward or turn back. No, even doing nothing affects it.”

A Magician can stop doing magic and be fine in an AIM rich environment, but a Magic God cannot. They can't switch off their power. If they could, they wouldn't need to devise a spell that split their infinite power infinitely in order to avoid accidentally destroying the world just by entering it. Against AIM, they have no protection. If anything, it should be even more lethal against them than it would be against an ordinary Magician using mana.

However, I still doubt it's AIM that did the Zombie and High Priest in. If Aleister could control AIM with one powered suit, he wouldn't need 10000 Sisters and Fuze Kazakiri to assemble Aiwass. You could argue that the Anti-Art Attachment might lack fine control, but I don't see how that couldn't be circumvented with enough resources if machines can do the job. We're getting off topic, though. We might have to move this conversation to the proper thread.

tsunade666

2015-08-04, 07:07

I don't think the magic gods body is made up of magic. if its made up of magic then IB should work on them but it didn't kill them by just touching.

while I would agree that magic god's body might be different in basic elements that made it up but I don't think its entirely magical. Just different natural laws.

Tiken

2015-08-04, 09:11

tsunade666

2015-08-04, 09:42

Idk, like I said, it was just a guess. What I was getting at is, what if the AIM was injected into the high priest (The reason I thought this was mainly due to Tsuchimikado Motoharu - he is an Esper that can use magic, and he kept saying that even If his body can regenerate itself, there is a chance that it can still kill him), but yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to throw things off topic.

I'll just end my speculation with this: birdway said that his hand couldn't affect ley-lines or that it can't negate the essences of nature or whatever it was, with that in mind, there is also only so much (pressure/g-force?) his hand can take before it gets ripped apart. I just leave it at that.

Its fine to speculate and debate but this is power level thread and not abilities and magic thread. Its a bit off topic for this thread.

And just like I post in the previews page. The reason Motoharu got damage when using magic is not because directly of AIM. its that his body is modified to use AIM and the particular laws of using AIM is different from Magic. That difference cost damage to him when he uses magic.

LevelSeven

2015-08-04, 09:56

Idk, like I said, it was just a guess. What I was getting at is, what if the AIM was injected into the high priest (The reason I thought this was mainly due to Tsuchimikado Motoharu - he is an Esper that can use magic, and he kept saying that even If his body can regenerate itself, there is a chance that it can still kill him), but yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to throw things off topic.
if his powers are at 100% i think it wont do anything, in his nerfed version i think that if he uses magic he will suffer injuries like vento (or a bit more)
I'll just end my speculation with this: birdway said that his hand couldn't affect ley-lines or that it can't negate the essences of nature or whatever it was, with that in mind, there is also only so much (pressure/g-force?) his hand can take before it gets ripped apart. I just leave it at that.
it affects leylines, the problem is that leylines wont stop, this is how the flying castle in NT2 followed touma... it tracked the disturbance in leylines which his right hand created...

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-04, 19:37

@tsunade666, LevelSeven, Tiken

I'm replying in the Abilities and Technologies thread. That's where this discussion belongs.

Now for something that is, for once, on topic, where is the Anti-Art Attachment on the power level chart? I don't see it. Either way, it should be quite high. Leaving aside its mysterious anti-magic powers, it did destroy that 100 meter comet and survive the impact unharmed. To put that feat to scale, the impact of an object 100 meters across generally produces power equivalent to a couple of megatons of TNT, putting it in the range of nuclear weapons.

Takeshi senpai

2015-08-17, 04:47

So where does Index rank on the power scale compared to other LNs, mangas and animes?

allfictions

2015-08-17, 06:59

So where does Index rank on the power scale compared to other LNs, mangas and animes?
There are way too many Japanese media out there, many with insane power levels, to provide an actual answer.

Takeshi senpai

2015-08-17, 07:38

Okay, compared to the famous ones, like Nasuverse, Mahouka or Umineko etc.

tsunade666

2015-08-17, 08:02

So where does Index rank on the power scale compared to other LNs, mangas and animes?

for tamni power levels

http://i.imgur.com/UOjmDhx.jpg

for general 2ch power levels

http://i.imgur.com/0tMirA5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3U4OdJT.png

don't take is seriously but this is generally power level comparison in 2ch. Even some didn't make sense -_-

though the ones included are popular enough for people to debate with. even if its sounded stupid -_-

its ego 1 vs ego 2

devil_slayer

2015-08-22, 18:39

LazyHunter

2015-08-22, 19:05

i don't like the comparison between the series =.= by the way these power levels dose not make sense =.=
==========
back to the main topic

can we consider kakien as the strongest esper right now ? back in NT 6 accel could not do sh!t against kakine even with the help of mugino and with kakine new power he is sort of a immortal he can create a human body with his dark matter power also with accel limited time he does not stand a chance against kakine

i m talking without count the awakening and even with awakening i dont think black wing accel can beat kakine but i don't know about white wings accel

so what do you think guys ? if i am worng then please one meNo, Accelerator is probably still the strongest esper. Kakine only got harder to kill by normal attacks, but Rensa easily beat him with Accel's black wings and he didn't seem able to properly recover from those attacks. Rensa is not as good as using the individual Level 5 powers as their true users, so Accel could probably beat Kakine since he would have more experience than her with his powers and wings.

tsunade666

2015-08-22, 20:03

i don't like the comparison between the series =.= by the way these power levels dose not make sense =.=
==========

Its not really that hard to understand.

Its easiest to see it as the strongest are usually the reality warpers. The kind that are "thy will be done"

Those who ignored rules and laws and create their own laws and warp the reality are the strongest and most annoying.

the power levels are for shounen sh*ts most of the time :heh: :heh:

though some of the comparisons really didn't make sense. Unless your familiar with the series or character itself.

LevelSeven

2015-08-23, 04:38

can we consider kakien as the strongest esper right now ? back in NT 6 accel could not do sh!t against kakine even with the help of mugino and with kakine new power he is sort of a immortal he can create a human body with his dark matter power also with accel limited time he does not stand a chance against kakine

kakine only needs to wait 30 minutes and he would win, or he creates a place where accel cant breath or he creates a place where the chokers signals cant reach him or he plays with him until accels human body cant keep up anymore... there are a lot of ways for kakine to kill base accel...
i m talking without count the awakening and even with awakening i dont think black wing accel can beat kakine but i don't know about white wings accel
if accel doesnt use the "inexplicable force"-thing than he will lose, beetle (the weaker version) was able to react to the black wings super-fast movements, if it wasnt for touma than he wouldnt have been hit,
that means that kakine can keep up with the black-wing-accel (minus the inexplicable force), and since he can regenerate + create infinite amounts of himselfes i doubt that accel could deal with him without that force :D

therefore i think it looks like this: white/black-accel+inexplicable force > awakened kakine > dark matter kakine/beetle > black-wing accel minus inexplicable force > normal(choker) accel > human kakine :)

Draco Spirit

2015-08-24, 03:59

On comparing Anime characters...

Also throw into the mix that some characters power level progresses as the plot does(Ichigo from Bleach), have situation boons (like Touma) or because the nature of the show, we don't now there parameters too well (Yuki Nagato from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is fairly hard to judge).

devil_slayer

2015-08-24, 10:43

kakine only needs to wait 30 minutes and he would win, or he creates a place where accel cant breath or he creates a place where the chokers signals cant reach him or he plays with him until accels human body cant keep up anymore... there are a lot of ways for kakine to kill base accel...

if accel doesnt use the "inexplicable force"-thing than he will lose, beetle (the weaker version) was able to react to the black wings super-fast movements, if it wasnt for touma than he wouldnt have been hit,
that means that kakine can keep up with the black-wing-accel (minus the inexplicable force), and since he can regenerate + create infinite amounts of himselfes i doubt that accel could deal with him without that force :D

therefore i think it looks like this: white/black-accel+inexplicable force > awakened kakine > dark matter kakine/beetle > black-wing accel minus inexplicable force > normal(choker) accel > human kakine :)

so in other words kakine is strongest than normal accel

hmm didn't accel black-wings minus inexplicable force owned awakened kakine in battle royal arc ?

tsunade666

2015-08-24, 10:52

so in other words kakine is strongest than normal accel

hmm didn't accel black-wings minus inexplicable force owned awakened kakine in battle royal arc ?
That kakine just start awakening and doesn't have full grasp of his power. He said himself that with that power he had. He can win against accelerator but before he even do something. He already got beaten. Plus, awaken kakine is different from the white kakine. You can say that awaken kakine just woke up from slumber while white kakine knew what his doing. Kakine has literally infinite number of ways to attack but only limited with knowledge and experience.

devil_slayer

2015-08-24, 11:15

it is funny how all the level 5 boys are stronger than the girls

talking about that i also think that misaka is weaker than mugino judging by the age different and the experience and from what i remember misaka was getting beaten by mugino when they fight in railgun S but misaka was tired from fighting frinda and escape from mugino beam the entire time so i don't know what will happened if misaka was in her perfect states

well one thing that misaka power is truly more of useful than mugino power

LevelSeven

2015-08-24, 14:10

so in other words kakine is strongest than normal accel

depends on the situation of each fight but via feats i wouldnt bet on accel...

hmm didn't accel black-wings minus inexplicable force owned awakened kakine in battle royal arc ?
no, he spoke in angelic-language and some invincible/inexplicable force pushed him down and than pushed him away where he easily ripped him into pieces :D :eyespin:
well one thing that misaka power is truly more of useful than mugino power
the problem is that muginos powers affect misakas to some extend while misaka affects muginos powers to 100% :/
direct electricity can be affected by muginos meltdowner, but not magnetism or other things while on the other hand muginos beams (which is everything she can do) are redirected by misaka (albeit with difficulties but it still works), furthermore, misaka can even sense the directions of the beams which allows her to even escape if she doesnt confront mugino face to face...

devil_slayer

2015-08-25, 06:01

Which group is stronger Level 5 Espers or Saints?

tsunade666

2015-08-25, 07:05

Which group is stronger Level 5 Espers or Saints?

Debatable for Accel and Kakine in terms of power and strength. it depends on what states they decide to fight. But the edge is more on white Kakine. But if Accel goes all out then his stronger than Kakine.

no 1 and no 2 > saints >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other level 5

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-25, 07:11

^Misaka was able to put up a fight against Brunhild, so I don't think she deserves that many ">" signs. Gunha is no slouch either. I agree it would probably be impossible for Mugino and it's doubtful wether or not Mental Out would be effective.

As for the number 6, your guess is as good as mine. We know nothing about their power.

LevelSeven

2015-08-25, 09:56

Which group is stronger Level 5 Espers or Saints?
accel (even after being nerfed) still would destroy saints easily (at least the ones we saw so far)
and kakine, im not sure about his human-form but the immortal one will mostlikely get victory even if all saints work together...

gunha seems to be able to keep up with a saint and via new-found ways to use his power he could also win, but im not sure...

mikoto lacks in the speed department, if a saint decides to attack her in close range i doubt that she can survive this...
muginos attacks are to slow, the speed of saints and their magics will get the victory for them...

misaki is actually a interesting case, if she can control her enemy she wins, if not, she loses, even if they have magical knowledge, misaki doesnt need to read the mind in order to control someone :)

@doom
mikoto was fairly serious (yeah, she didnt go for killing but at when did she ever do it?), on the other hand brunhild held most of her abilitys back and didnt even use magic for attack/defense...

SilverTalon

2015-08-25, 14:27

mikoto lacks in the speed department, if a saint decides to attack her in close range i doubt that she can survive this...

You say this about the only level 5 to actually fight a Saint who also did actually manage to keep up with saint speed. I agree that Brun > Mikoto, but not because of that.

@doom
mikoto was fairly serious (yeah, she didnt go for killing but at when did she ever do it?), on the other hand brunhild held most of her abilitys back and didnt even use magic for attack/defense...

Given what the most recent LN said about Saint durability compared to the durability of the high priest during the chase, Brun must have used magic to defend against the railgun.

With an almost comical noise, the back of his head collided with an electronic sign jutting out from a multi-tenant building.

Ironically, it was the very fact that he was a Magic God that allowed this to be laughed off as harmless.

With a surprise attack at this speed, a normal human’s head would have been split open if not torn clean off. The same could be said of a Saint.

So hitting their heads while traveling at acrobike speeds on a sign would be fatal to a saint. Mikoto's railgun has way more destructive power than that which means the only way Brun could have taken it is if she used magic for defense.

Brun also used at the very least some type of cutting magic against debris Mikoto threw as well.

LevelSeven

2015-08-25, 15:03

You say this about the only level 5 to actually fight a Saint who also did actually manage to keep up with saint speed. I agree that Brun > Mikoto, but not because of that.
if you mean that he found a way to be able to somehow predict the movement of the saint and dodge beforehand than yes, she was able to keep up, but from what i can remember she never reached a speed even close to brun...
Given what the most recent LN said about Saint durability compared to the durability of the high priest during the chase, Brun must have used magic to defend against the railgun.
did the railgun hit? because i remember that it wasnt aimed at her to begin with, it aimed at the place where touma fought the cabal-girl...
So hitting their heads while traveling at acrobike speeds on a sign would be fatal to a saint. Mikoto's railgun has way more destructive power than that which means the only way Brun could have taken it is if she used magic for defense.
i agree that the railgun would have injured her badly, but did it hit?
Brun also used at the very least some type of cutting magic against debris Mikoto threw as well.
arent this feats simply "saint/valkyrie"-strength feats?

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-25, 21:52

Brunhild never held back against Mikoto. That is a myth, much like it isn't true that people only use 10% of their brains and bats aren't actually blind. I have no idea where it came from, but nothing in the text supports it.

Brunhild had no reason to hold back. Sure, she wasn't feeling particularly motivated, but that was no reason not to fight at 100% when the fate of the world could have been in the balance. If she didn't use other kinds of Magic aside from body enhancement, it's not because she chose not to, but because she couldn't afford to:

Knight Leader, while holding down the greatsword of the mercenary, said with a steady voice,

“Or you can forgo weapons and use magic - yes, in your case, you might be able to kill me with your runes or such. Perhaps you would like to try?”

His suggestion wasn’t made seriously - his tone had conveyed that.

The speed of William and Knight Leader were equal. If he were to neglect the techniques which governed his body in favor of other kinds of magic, he would be quickly cut down and killed.

Fighting as a Saint hinges upon a precarious balance, much like riding a motorcycle across a tightrope over the Grand Canyon. They have to handle an amount of power that could kill them if overused, all whilst juggling several spells without which their abilities would not be beyond that of the average human. Adding extra spells into the mix increases that burden and lowers overall performance.

Thus if Brunhild wanted to use any of her other spells against Mikoto, she would have to give up part of her strength, speed and durability to do so. Considering that she had been hit and hurt by Mikoto's lighting even with 100% physical enhancement, such a move would have been suicidal.

tsunade666

2015-08-25, 22:39

If the battle is in between equal or near the same level that may apply but look at another saint vs saint battle.

kaori vs double saint aqua. Kaori can spam spell while having saint power ups.

it really depends on how the saint will consider the fight.

Brun might be taking Mikoto seriously by utilizing her ability as a saint but still. She is not using her trump card like when she battle against Kaori. The difference in using magic and using only the power of saint alone makes a difference.

Saints are envied because they are blessed but aside from being blessed by having a special body. they can also use magic. its also been mentioned in OT and since before NT shows up. Saint + magic is a package deal.

Many can argue about Mikoto vs Brunhilde but it still won't change the fact that Brun didn't used her magic.

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-25, 23:32

^Kaori is more skilled than Brunhild. This was made clear when her katana could cut off pieces of Brunhild's claymore without being damaged in turn. She's above average even by Saint standards and is better at the balancing act.

Also, you talk of the super strength and magic of Saints as if they were two separate things. They're not. A Saint's body isn't that much different from a normal human's. They just have Stigmata that let them draw upon immense amounts of mana through idol theory, which they use to strengthen an otherwise unremarkable human body. Brunhilde was using magic against Mikoto because if she weren't, she wouldn't even be strong enough to lift her oversized sword.

Finally, you speak as if Brunhild had many attack spells to use against Mikoto, but if she did, she never showed them. She had some flashy attacks when using Gungnir, but without it, she was never seen using anything other than physical enhancement in any of her battles, wether vs Kaori, the fake Valkyries or anyone else. She knows runes that prevent healing, but those were a form of mutilation inflicted upon an already defeated enemy, not an attack.

tsunade666

2015-08-25, 23:40

There are lots of ways to use runes so to say that, that is all she she can do is limiting her ability. Plus we haven't seen much about her aside from gungnir weather/calamity magic control.

Plus I said special body and not strong body.

I know that saints can use telesma to power up their body but its a double edge sword. too much of it can also harm them which is why even kaori that is strong is limited by it. aqua double saint can use it to 100% but normal saints are using only half of it to not harm their body or put too much burden on it.

too much power can also turn against them.

Kuroageha

2015-08-26, 00:13

She had, she even tells later she had some for Othinus after rejoining with Silvia and Birdway.

She was saving her cards for the right objective and Mikoto was the last of her worries.

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-26, 02:30

^Aren't you confusing Brunhild with Birdway, who didn't use the Major Arcana tarots in her fight against Touma? Because I have literally just finished reading every single piece of text I could think of that features Brunhild, including excerpts from NT4, NT6, NT8, NT10 and the Norse SS, and couldn't find anything even vaguely resembling what you just said.

I'm sure that Brunhild knows a lot more Norse spells. In fact we know she knows how to use runes to block healing, induce sleep, manipulate people, project her voice and craft an imperfect version of Gungnir. However, that doesn't mean that any of them are usable in battle. All we've seen her use without Gungnir and all that she has ever been stated to be able to do in battle is physical enhancement and a spell for increasing the sharpness of her sword which is inferior to Kaori's Yuisen:

“I’ve heard that Japanese katanas have the durability needed to function both as a sword and a shield, but this is something more. You have some kind of spell embedded in the blade. I’m using attack spells in conjunction with my blade, but it looks like I’m at the disadvantage here.”

“Yuisen. It is a spell that theoretically has the ability to slice a monotheistic angel in two. It is not something I like to turn on humans.”

That's the one spell I forgot. Kudos to SilverTalon for remembering. Still, it doesn't change my argument, since she also used this against Mikoto:

A loud snapping sound came from the thick concrete.

Something other than simple sharpness of the blade forcibly hacked through the obstacle and secured the claymore’s path.

In conclusion, Brunhild wasn't holding back one bit against Mikoto. She used every spell she had, yet she wasn't able to land a blow despite having the advantage in raw power. Even assuming she might have some hitherto unseen attack spell that was never hinted at or foreshadowed anywhere, she must have judged that it wouldn't be useful against Mikoto, or she would have used it then.

LevelSeven

2015-08-26, 04:02

Brunhild never held back against Mikoto. That is a myth, much like it isn't true that people only use 10% of their brains and bats aren't actually blind. I have no idea where it came from, but nothing in the text supports it.
she can surely use attack spells which have are AoE-attacks... dodging this with human-speed isnt possible...
Brunhild had no reason to hold back. Sure, she wasn't feeling particularly motivated, but that was no reason not to fight at 100% when the fate of the world could have been in the balance. If she didn't use other kinds of Magic aside from body enhancement, it's not because she chose not to, but because she couldn't afford to:
thhis perticular fight didnt decide anything, she held mikoto back so that birdway fights touma one on one with kreutune as price...
Fighting as a Saint hinges upon a precarious balance, much like riding a motorcycle across a tightrope over the Grand Canyon.
your quote mentions a fight on sonic-lvl speed, one second means a lot for beings with 300m/s... but this isnt the case in a saint vs non-superspeed-being
They have to handle an amount of power that could kill them if overused, all whilst juggling several spells without which their abilities would not be beyond that of the average human. Adding extra spells into the mix increases that burden and lowers overall performance.
the quote is refering to knight leader right? because aqua was already sonic-speed-lvl with his saint-body (no need for spells)...
Thus if Brunhild wanted to use any of her other spells against Mikoto, she would have to give up part of her strength, speed and durability to do so. Considering that she had been hit and hurt by Mikoto's lighting even with 100% physical enhancement, such a move would have been suicidal.
no, as saint/valkyrie she has superspeed/strength/senses without the need to use spells... she never used them in order to increase her inborn speed/strngth...

Takeshi senpai

2015-08-26, 04:10

How does Gunha compare to saints then?

LevelSeven

2015-08-26, 04:19

How does Gunha compare to saints then?
mostlikely he has higher healing abilitys and...well, i would say he is equal to a saints body stats, with other new abilitys that simply show up he can maybe even win but this is to be seen :)

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-26, 04:49

@LevelSeven, I see you haven't read the posts I made after the one you quoted. Well, whatever, I'll just have to repeat the same things all over again.

she can surely use attack spells which have are AoE-attacks... dodging this with human-speed isnt possible, either way, brunhild was even in a position to take mikotos life but she stopped and spoke which gave mikoto enough time to attack her with lightning, which, btw, only stunned her for a second...

No she doesn't. All her AOE attacks were with 70% Gungnir. She never used any AOE or ranged spells against Kanzaki before she got Gungnir, nor did she make any use of them in NT4, when surrounded by artificial Valkyries when the life of the boy who is the single most important person to her on the planet was at risk and an AOE attack would have been very convenient.

As for giving Mikoto time:

And there was a problem that came before trivial differences in power.

Brunhild Eiktobel could reach a top speed that exceeded the speed of sound.

And she brought out that top speed from the very first step.

By the time the explosive noise rang out, it was already too late.

From the perspective of one’s bodily senses, Brunhild seemed to just disappear. And since she was moving faster than sound, one could never react in time based on sound.

Brunhild Eiktobel charged up to a point right in front of Mikoto and vigorously swung up the claymore hanging down from one hand.

She also twisted her wrist to lay the giant sword down flat as she swung it.

Normally, this may have been an attempt to not hit one’s opponent with the blade of the sword. However, the situation here was different. Brunhild Eiktobel could move at supersonic speeds and the claymore she held was like a giant sword made by attaching a grip to a metal sheet.

By laying the blade flat, she could use it like a giant fan made of steel.

An overwhelmingly violent fan that used the massive shockwave created when an object moved at supersonic speeds.

That would end it.

Not only would it crush the girl’s fat and muscles from the outside, but her eardrums, lungs, and trachea would rupture from within.

However…

“Damn you!!”

“!?”

She reacted just before it hit.

A dull noise came from below their feet. The ground below moved. The road at the top of the overpass was made in blocks that included the supports below. The girl controlled one entire block with magnetism to tilt it like a seesaw.

This caused Brunhild’s aim to be off with her claymore strike and the sonic boom flew off into the distance. All the glass in one of the buildings alongside the road was smashed to pieces.

(A broad-use electric type? So did she use some kind of radar? No, this is…!!)

Iron sand had been thinly spread all across the road surface.

Even if Brunhild Eiktobel’s movements exceeded the limits of the girl’s kinetic vision, she could clearly see what path Brunhild had taken thanks to her footprints.

And Misaka Mikoto did not stop there.

She snapped her fingers and shouted, “Be swallowed up!!”

The iron sand rose up in every direction.

It all began vibrating at high speed to create a storm of killer needles and then shot towards Brunhild Eiktobel from all 360 degrees around her.

Brunhild grabbed her giant claymore with both hands and swung it around in a full circle like she was performing a giant swing.

The explosive roar came slightly after the fact.

The air was agitated at tremendous speed and that deadly swarm that was being controlled by great magnetic power was struck by the even more tremendous power of the sonic boom created. The iron sand lost its form and was blown away.

Mikoto escaped the shockwave by controlling the rebar in the overpass road to create a thick wall of concrete in front of her. She used magnetism to once more gather the scattered iron sand and check on her next target.

“That sword!!”

Brunhild Eiktobel was aiming for Mikoto’s neck with her claymore, but the sword stopped in midair.

But once again it did not last even a second.

As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

But…

“One second…is enough!!”

She had taken aim.

Bluish-white sparks flew from Mikoto’s bangs.

With the roar of the air bursting, the lightning spear directly struck the steel claymore. Not even Brunhild was able to ignore that. The high voltage current passed from the blade to her wrists and then rushed throughout her entire body.

Meanwhile, Mikoto swung her left hand. It was the same motion as that used in a sidearm throw in baseball.

Something large moved as if following her palm.

It was a giant mass of reinforced concrete. It flew straight for Brunhild to perform a deadly body blow.

Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage in an instant and used her claymore and her physical strength to stop that mass that could likely destroy a building wall.

A struggle began like two opponents with their swords locked together.

“From the looks of you, you have little to do with magic,” said Brunhild finally. It may have been that she had only now recognized her opponent as being worth speaking to. “Then why are you participating in this conflict over Fräulein Kreutune? I am not trying to start an argument over which side she belongs to, but approaching her increases the risk of getting wrapped up in the core of Gremlin.”

“I don’t want to hear that from the person who suddenly rushed in trying to kill me. …At any rate, I don’t know or care about any of those big picture issues. To be honest, I have no good reason to be fighting here.”

While using her left hand to control the concrete hammer, Mikoto used her right hand to create a sword of iron sand.

And then…

“But I do know one thing.”

“And what is that?”

“You don’t need a good reason to save a friend. If you want to save them, then save them. …I know someone who kept saying those stupid things even when he was driven to the brink of death, and he really did save over 10,000 people in the end. And that idiot that saved so many people is trying to save someone today like always. I know I can’t stop him. No matter how much I don’t want him to do anything dangerous, seeing him off with a push to the back is the sign of a good woman!!”

A loud snapping sound came from the thick concrete.

Something other than simple sharpness of the blade forcibly hacked through the obstacle and secured the claymore’s path.

At the same time, Mikoto swung the iron sand sword with all her might before the claymore could pick up speed.

But when it came to a competition of physical strength, she would lose.

In the very first strike, Mikoto saw the vibrating iron sand could not slice through the steel sheet making up the claymore. She immediately released the iron sand sword.

Instead, she took a coin she had taken out at some point and placed it on top of her thumb. She held her hand out towards Brunhild Eiktobel.

This was the technique she was named after.

She was about to fire the Railgun.

“I have my own reason. I want to save that idiot, so I will!!”

Brunhild gave Mikoto no chances. She only spoke after Mikoto had already made her attack miss. Mikoto herself cannot move faster than sound, but lightning moves even faster than a Saint and magnetism propagates at the speed of light. With a combination of her powers and ingenuity, she could interfere with Brunhild's attacks just enough to barely avoid being killed whilst scoring blows of her own.

Also, Brunhild did take damage from the lightning, even if it wasn't serious. It took her effort to shrug off the damage. Theoretically, had Mikoto been able to keep that up for long enough, her attacks would have downed Brunhild, although one slip up would have resulted in Mikoto's death.

thhis perticular fight didnt decide anything, she held mikoto back so that birdway fights touma one on one with kreutune as price...

If she had finished off Mikoto, she could have backed up either Silvia or Birdway and helped obtain Kreutune, who was supposed to be part of their plan against Othinus. Do you really think she would have held back if it stopped her from increasing the odds of protecting the one boy who is pretty much the only reason she does anything these days?

your quote mentions a fight on sonic-lvl speed, one second means a lot for beings with 300m/s... but this isnt the case in a saint vs non-superspeed-being

As stated earlier, Mikoto is not superspeed, but her lightning and railgun are.

the quote is refering to knight leader right? because aqua was already sonic-speed-lvl with his saint-body (no need for spells)...

no, as saint/valkyrie she has superspeed/strength/senses without the need to use spells... she never used them in order to increase her inborn speed/strngth...

That is your misconception. Saints, Valkyries and others like them have no inherent superhuman stats without spells. They just have internal body structures that resemble those of powerful, mythical figures, which lets them use idol theory to call in huge amounts of power, which they use to boost their bodies to superhuman levels. Their bones are no more solid than a normal person's and their muscles are no stronger either, it's their magic that lets them move faster than sound and destroy buildings with physical strength. Here's proof:

“That’s right, Kami-yan. Didn’t I explain the Idol Theory to you yesterday? Though the crosses on the roofs of churches are fake, as long as the shape is the same, they can obtain a certain amount of power.”

Tsuchimikado explained this really quickly while noticing Kanzaki and Misha’s
movements.

“The same theory can be applied to duplicate items of God. Humans are created in God’s image, so it’s possible to infuse humans with God’s blessing. Of course, only a few people have the privilege to be humans similar to God. Someone like Kanzaki nee-chin, who’s naturally born with the blessing of God, has the proof of a Saint: the Stigma. Once she releases the power of the Stigma, she can, for a short while, gain power that far exceeds a human. Right now, Kanzaki nee-chin can take down an entire city on her own, you know?”

In other words, their strength is not an inherent, permanent property of their body, but something acquired through spells. If you think about it, Knight Leader who is not a Saint managed to reach Saint levels through spells fueled by Curtana Original instead of Stigmata, so I find your belief that actual Saints work differently to be strange.

BladeMancer

2015-08-26, 05:55

accel (even after being nerfed) still would destroy saints easily (at least the ones we saw so far)
and kakine, im not sure about his human-form but the immortal one will mostlikely get victory even if all saints work together...

gunha seems to be able to keep up with a saint and via new-found ways to use his power he could also win, but im not sure...

mikoto lacks in the speed department, if a saint decides to attack her in close range i doubt that she can survive this...
muginos attacks are to slow, the speed of saints and their magics will get the victory for them...

misaki is actually a interesting case, if she can control her enemy she wins, if not, she loses, even if they have magical knowledge, misaki doesnt need to read the mind in order to control someone :)

@doom
mikoto was fairly serious (yeah, she didnt go for killing but at when did she ever do it?), on the other hand brunhild held most of her abilitys back and didnt even use magic for attack/defense...
Gunha's physical abilities surpasses Saints I believe. I have read that he can go twice the speed of sound (immense speed), maintain consciousness from being hit by Ollerus's weapon (Durability) and throw Touma a very far distance away (Super strong).
His other abilities just put him on another level, I believe that Gunha can beat a saint.

LevelSeven

2015-08-26, 11:23

No she doesn't. All her AOE attacks were with 70% Gungnir. She never used any AOE or ranged spells against Kanzaki before she got Gungnir, nor did she make any use of them in NT4, when surrounded by artificial Valkyries when the life of the boy who is the single most important person to her on the planet was at risk and an AOE attack would have been very convenient.
maybe she didnt need it (exspecially since she one-shotted them in canon :/ )

As for giving Mikoto time:

And there was a problem that came before trivial differences in power.

Brunhild Eiktobel could reach a top speed that exceeded the speed of sound.

And she brought out that top speed from the very first step.

By the time the explosive noise rang out, it was already too late.

From the perspective of one’s bodily senses, Brunhild seemed to just disappear. And since she was moving faster than sound, one could never react in time based on sound.

Brunhild Eiktobel charged up to a point right in front of Mikoto and vigorously swung up the claymore hanging down from one hand.

She also twisted her wrist to lay the giant sword down flat as she swung it.

Normally, this may have been an attempt to not hit one’s opponent with the blade of the sword. However, the situation here was different. Brunhild Eiktobel could move at supersonic speeds and the claymore she held was like a giant sword made by attaching a grip to a metal sheet.

By laying the blade flat, she could use it like a giant fan made of steel.

An overwhelmingly violent fan that used the massive shockwave created when an object moved at supersonic speeds.

That would end it.

Not only would it crush the girl’s fat and muscles from the outside, but her eardrums, lungs, and trachea would rupture from within.

However…

“Damn you!!”

“!?”

She reacted just before it hit.

A dull noise came from below their feet. The ground below moved. The road at the top of the overpass was made in blocks that included the supports below. The girl controlled one entire block with magnetism to tilt it like a seesaw.

This caused Brunhild’s aim to be off with her claymore strike and the sonic boom flew off into the distance. All the glass in one of the buildings alongside the road was smashed to pieces.

(A broad-use electric type? So did she use some kind of radar? No, this is…!!)

Iron sand had been thinly spread all across the road surface.

Even if Brunhild Eiktobel’s movements exceeded the limits of the girl’s kinetic vision, she could clearly see what path Brunhild had taken thanks to her footprints.

And Misaka Mikoto did not stop there.

She snapped her fingers and shouted, “Be swallowed up!!”

The iron sand rose up in every direction.

It all began vibrating at high speed to create a storm of killer needles and then shot towards Brunhild Eiktobel from all 360 degrees around her.

Brunhild grabbed her giant claymore with both hands and swung it around in a full circle like she was performing a giant swing.

The explosive roar came slightly after the fact.

The air was agitated at tremendous speed and that deadly swarm that was being controlled by great magnetic power was struck by the even more tremendous power of the sonic boom created. The iron sand lost its form and was blown away.

Mikoto escaped the shockwave by controlling the rebar in the overpass road to create a thick wall of concrete in front of her. She used magnetism to once more gather the scattered iron sand and check on her next target.

“That sword!!”

Brunhild Eiktobel was aiming for Mikoto’s neck with her claymore, but the sword stopped in midair.

But once again it did not last even a second.

As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

But…

“One second…is enough!!”

She had taken aim.

Bluish-white sparks flew from Mikoto’s bangs.

With the roar of the air bursting, the lightning spear directly struck the steel claymore. Not even Brunhild was able to ignore that. The high voltage current passed from the blade to her wrists and then rushed throughout her entire body.

Meanwhile, Mikoto swung her left hand. It was the same motion as that used in a sidearm throw in baseball.

Something large moved as if following her palm.

It was a giant mass of reinforced concrete. It flew straight for Brunhild to perform a deadly body blow.

Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage in an instant and used her claymore and her physical strength to stop that mass that could likely destroy a building wall.

A struggle began like two opponents with their swords locked together.

“From the looks of you, you have little to do with magic,” said Brunhild finally. It may have been that she had only now recognized her opponent as being worth speaking to. “Then why are you participating in this conflict over Fräulein Kreutune? I am not trying to start an argument over which side she belongs to, but approaching her increases the risk of getting wrapped up in the core of Gremlin.”

“I don’t want to hear that from the person who suddenly rushed in trying to kill me. …At any rate, I don’t know or care about any of those big picture issues. To be honest, I have no good reason to be fighting here.”

While using her left hand to control the concrete hammer, Mikoto used her right hand to create a sword of iron sand.

And then…

“But I do know one thing.”

“And what is that?”

“You don’t need a good reason to save a friend. If you want to save them, then save them. …I know someone who kept saying those stupid things even when he was driven to the brink of death, and he really did save over 10,000 people in the end. And that idiot that saved so many people is trying to save someone today like always. I know I can’t stop him. No matter how much I don’t want him to do anything dangerous, seeing him off with a push to the back is the sign of a good woman!!”

A loud snapping sound came from the thick concrete.

Something other than simple sharpness of the blade forcibly hacked through the obstacle and secured the claymore’s path.

At the same time, Mikoto swung the iron sand sword with all her might before the claymore could pick up speed.

But when it came to a competition of physical strength, she would lose.

In the very first strike, Mikoto saw the vibrating iron sand could not slice through the steel sheet making up the claymore. She immediately released the iron sand sword.

Instead, she took a coin she had taken out at some point and placed it on top of her thumb. She held her hand out towards Brunhild Eiktobel.

This was the technique she was named after.

She was about to fire the Railgun.

“I have my own reason. I want to save that idiot, so I will!!”

Brunhild gave Mikoto no chances. She only spoke after Mikoto had already made her attack miss. Mikoto herself cannot move faster than sound, but lightning moves even faster than a Saint and magnetism propagates at the speed of light. With a combination of her powers and ingenuity, she could interfere with Brunhild's attacks just enough to barely avoid being killed whilst scoring blows of her own.

Also, Brunhild did take damage from the lightning, even if it wasn't serious. It took her effort to shrug off the damage. Theoretically, had Mikoto been able to keep that up for long enough, her attacks would have downed Brunhild, although one slip up would have resulted in Mikoto's death.
yeah, sorry about that, i edited my post a few minutes after putting it online but you answered the un-editted one :/

BIB: the "damage" she took from the lightning she recieved was forcibly overcome but it doesnt say that it was hard for her to do it (if i bind a car with a robe and he starts to drive he will forcibly free himself, but this doesnt mean that the car had problems doing it)...

the lightning did little to no damage and it was already described as high-voltage, add defensive spells to her body and even stronger attacks wouldnt be able to hurt her badly...

If she had finished off Mikoto, she could have backed up either Silvia or Birdway and helped obtain Kreutune, who was supposed to be part of their plan against Othinus. Do you really think she would have held back if it stopped her from increasing the odds of protecting the one boy who is pretty much the only reason she does anything these days?
why should she try to hurry to help them if she is well aware that the others would win?
didnt they actually fight thor and mikoto because they wanted to keep them away from birdway so that she can fight touma?
As stated earlier, Mikoto is not superspeed, but her lightning and railgun are.
this is not the same as fighting in close range, mikotos perception-speed is also not superhuman, a fight like with kaori vs birdway would be like this "one second decides everything" but by normal humans recognizing, comprehending and doing something against a unforeseen situation requires several seconds... in brun vs mikoto was easily enough time for her to use powerful magic spells...
That is your misconception. Saints, Valkyries and others like them have no inherent superhuman stats without spells. They just have internal body structures that resemble those of powerful, mythical figures, which lets them use idol theory to call in huge amounts of power, which they use to boost their bodies to superhuman levels. Their bones are no more solid than a normal person's and their muscles are no stronger either, it's their magic that lets them move faster than sound and destroy buildings with physical strength. Here's proof:

what i meant was that they dont need spells for their superhuman body(no preperation or tools/chants/etc), it is inhherited, a thought and it activates, of course i know that they need to balance their abilitys, otherwise acqua wouldnt need the "mother mercy"-spell...
In other words, their strength is not an inherent, permanent property of their body, but something acquired through spells.
"something acquired through magic" would fit better :eyespin:
If you think about it, Knight Leader who is not a Saint managed to reach Saint levels through spells fueled by Curtana Original instead of Stigmata, so I find your belief that actual Saints work differently to be strange.
the difference is that they dont need to prepare their spells, they are inherited in them since birth...
Gunha's physical abilities surpasses Saints I believe. I have read that he can go twice the speed of sound (immense speed), maintain consciousness from being hit by Ollerus's weapon (Durability) and throw Touma a very far distance away (Super strong).
His other abilities just put him on another level, I believe that Gunha can beat a saint.
body-wise i think this too, and he even has super-healing-speed which only a few saints have (from kanzaki SS)...
but their spells could give them a immense advantage, of course it depends on gunha, if he doesnt get new kinds of never-before-seen attacks than i dont see him beating them :/

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-26, 13:27

maybe she didnt need it (exspecially since she one-shotted them in canon :/ )

Yeah, no:

In fact, she had no guarantee that she would survive.

She might have been able to win in a pure fight to the death, but the artificial Valkyries knew Brunhild’s weakness. If attacks came from over 10 different directions at once while she had to protect that boy, the difficulty grew considerably.

And Brunhild would unhesitatingly choose the boy if only one of them could survive.

That was why it was possible that she would lose to an opponent she should be able to defeat.

She was afraid she might lose, yet she didn't use any AOE spells. The only possible reason for this is that she didn't have any.

If you want to insist she has any such attacks, you'll need actual evidence now. No "other Saints have such spells" or "she must have runes that can do that" or other such nonsense founded on half-baked speculation. You will need to point out actual text from an actual novel that points out she can do what you think she can, or this argument is over.

yeah, sorry about that, i edited my post a few minutes after putting it online but you answered the un-editted one :/

I can't really see the difference.

BIB: the "damage" she took from the lightning she recieved was forcibly overcome but it doesnt say that it was hard for her to do it (if i bind a car with a robe and he starts to drive he will forcibly free himself, but this doesnt mean that the car had problems doing it)...

the lightning did little to no damage and it was already described as high-voltage, add defensive spells to her body and even stronger attacks wouldnt be able to hurt her badly...

Any damage is better than no damage. Contrast with the High Priest, who could have taken any number of lightning attacks whilst laughing them off. With Brunhild, it might have taken 100 or even 1000 attacks, but eventually Brunhild would have been KO'd.

why should she try to hurry to help them if she is well aware that the others would win?
didnt they actually fight thor and mikoto because they wanted to keep them away from birdway so that she can fight touma?

Only, neither Silvia nor Birdway won their encounters. Silvia was unable to kill Thor and Birdway actually lost. Especially against a Magician powerful enough to bear the name of Thor as well as the number 2 spot in Gremlin, there was no way Brunhild could know for sure that they would win.

Birdway was focused on Touma, but Brunhild and Silvia couldn't have cared less. They fought Thor and Mikoto because they were on the other side. They weren't focused on Touma in particular as long as they could get Kreutune. In fact:

Silvia then turned around in order to deal with the remaining opponent.

In that direction, Brunhild Eiktobel and the Academy City girl’s battle was still ongoing. But a two-sided attack from two Saints would finish that quickly enough.

But then…

Silvia's first priority when she thought she had beaten Thor was to double team Mikoto into submission. After that, she would have probably moved on to fight Touma 3 on 1. Brunhild was probably thinking the same way.

this is not the same as fighting in close range, mikotos perception-speed is also not superhuman, a fight like with kaori vs birdway would be like this "one second decides everything" but by normal humans recognizing, comprehending and doing something against a unforeseen situation requires several seconds... in brun vs mikoto was easily enough time for her to use powerful magic spells...

I just showed you a quote of Mikoto reacting to Brunhild's supersonic attacks. Clearly the senses provided by her powers, if not her normal human senses, are superhuman. Your belief contradicts the text.

Need more proof? What about this little moment from the most recent volume:

Another tree-like arm of mud grew behind the mummy.

It broke out through the asphalt and grabbed the building.

He did not use it for defense.

“Ah.”

Just as Mikoto tried to say something, the twenty-story building was swung down like a tree branch.

[...]

“Shut…up.”

He thought he heard a voice from beyond the building.

“If you hadn’t done this, I wouldn’t have had to go to all this trouble. If I hadn’t done anything, who knows what would have happened to everyone inside the building.”

“Hah hah!! I see, I see. So you are here to save the people! That would mean you did more than catch it with magnetism. You must have added in a variety of tricks to make sure the people inside weren’t smashed to-…”

What's impressive here isn't that Mikoto caught a whole building which must have weighed at least a few thousands of tons (based on the fact that the Empire State Building, a 100+ story skyscraper, weighs 365000 tons), but that she was able to ascertain the presence of every single person in that building and protect them. There must have been dozens of people in there, but she did it in what couldn't have been more than a second or two. That's not normal reaction speed.

Need more? Here:

Meanwhile, Misaka Mikoto was wrapped in oil composite armor down in the multipurpose drain that looked like a giant tunnel. Also down there, Yuri was attacked by an unknown chill down her back. It had been longer than 10 minutes, so Mikoto had surely suffocated, but Yuri was a member of White Alligator and knew very well that common knowledge did not always apply with Level 5s.

And then something happened.

Specifically, Yuri realized a strange vibration was repeating within the oil composite armor that should have been under her control.

(Don’t tell me she mixed a bunch of iron sand in with the oil. But where is she getting the oxygen she needs for her brain to-…Wait, is this vibration…!?)

There was oxygen in oil. It was just that human lungs could not make use of it. By vibrating the iron sand, Misaka Mikoto was accurately breaking down the oil and carrying only the oxygen, nitrogen, and other components of air to her mouth.

And it did not end there.

When those components of the oil were removed, the oil had changed enough to lose its characteristics as oil.

Military Oil was the power to freely control the properties of oil and petroleum products.

If what she was controlling lost its characteristics and composition as oil, she lost her control over it. Yuri did not have the power to directly control hydrocarbons or sulfur.

Mikoto can breathe whilst submerged in oil by breaking down its chemical composition to extract oxygen from it. Even if that is possible in theory, in practice it wouldn't be feasible if Mikoto didn't possess the ability to perceive and interact with matter on a molecular scale. I admit this isn't a feat of reaction speed, but this is clearly not normal.

Sure, her reactions are slower when surprised. She wasn't able to do anything when Niang Niang suddenly skewered her with dozens of blades, but then again...

A sticky explosive sound burst out.

The great noise came from Ollerus as he cut between the two Saints.

But due to the fairy spell, he did not possess any of his special power from being near magic godhood. The strength of his body and the magic he could use were both weaker than the average magician’s.

His will made up for what he lacked.

The action he took was simple. He enclosed his arms around the large sword Brunhild swung down. However, he could never stop an attack launched at the speed of sound. The incredible friction tore his hands to pieces.

Even as his hands continued to be destroyed to divert the path of the large sword, he moved those hands.

He tugged so as to pull the sword and Brunhild toward him. He had the sword cross paths with Silvia’s empty-handed strike.

“What!?”

“Ollerus!! You idiot!!”

The women spoke up in surprise, but it was too late.

A great roar rang out. To someone watching on, it may have looked like the two Saints collided at frightening speed and collapsed into the deep snow.

The two Saints had been defeated at the cost of Ollerus’s arms.

...Saints are every bit as vulnerable to unexpected attacks as Mikoto is. Power wise, Saints have an overwhelming advantage over Mikoto, but sense wise? They've got nothing on her.

what i meant was that they dont need spells for their superhuman body(no preperation or tools/chants/etc), it is inhherited, a thought and it activates, of course i know that they need to balance their abilitys, otherwise acqua wouldnt need the "mother mercy"-spell...

"something acquired through magic" would fit better :eyespin:

the difference is that they dont need to prepare their spells, they are inherited in them since birth...

Where is it said that Saints know their spells from birth? As far as we know, each Saint has their own method of controlling the power they were born with, which they must master through careful experimentation like every other magician. As a matter of fact, Acqua was able to move at supersonic speeds in NT10 even after losing his Saint powers by using Curtana Second's power instead. Would an inborn spell be that flexible? I think not.

Prove to me that the physical enhancement magic of Saints is inborn with actual text, or this argument is over.

body-wise i think this too, and he even has super-healing-speed which only a few saints have (from kanzaki SS)...
but their spells could give them a immense advantage, of course it depends on gunha, if he doesnt get new kinds of never-before-seen attacks than i dont see him beating them :/

I would have said the same before I saw him in action in Railgun, where he casually batted aside lighting blasts stated to be dozens of times Mikoto's normal output. I could see Gunha beat a Saint through guts.

Not sure what you mean by super-healing though. Can you point out where it was said he can do that?

LazyHunter

2015-08-26, 14:13

Not sure what you mean by super-healing though. Can you point out where it was said he can do that?In SS2 Gunha pretty much tanked and apparently recovered from all damage the delinquents caused him, including being shot in the heart.
The mysterious figure stood right back up. The whole thing took only around three seconds. Unsurprisingly, the figure standing right back up like a self-righting doll messed up the delinquents' pace. Despite having clearly taken a shot right to his heart, he had the tension of someone who had stayed up all night and approached with heavy steps.
[...]
The delinquent didn’t understand what was going on at all, so he decided to shoot again. He continued to pull the trigger, but the figure only shook a bit instead of falling to the ground.
Unsurprisingly, the boy was getting rather angry and he lowered his gaze to the gun in his hand once.
“Why won’t you die…?”
“Guts! It’s about guts!!”
[...]
“Non non!! I already told you! That whole Level 5 and #7 thing was all a boring digression!! What’s important here is guts!! It’s not too late! So just listen to m—Ow! Stop beating me with a bicycle chain lock and stabbing me with an ice pick! Ow ow ow ow! You all lack guts!!”
It looked like a comedic scene, but about ten episodes worth of material for two hourlong suspense dramas was present in the storm of violence.
And after it all, Sogiita Gunha simply wouldn’t die. His assailants began to find this odd, although their attacking hands did not slow in the slightest.In the Railgun Daihaseisai fight against Mikoto he literally said "A little guts is enough to stop bleeding and reconnect bones". There's a limit to the damage he can take, considering Ollerus did manage to beat him.

Kuroageha

2015-08-26, 18:54

Face it, it's just the novel bending its way in favor of certain character.

LevelSeven

2015-08-27, 05:02

She was afraid she might lose, yet she didn't use any AOE spells. The only possible reason for this is that she didn't have any.
true...
If you want to insist she has any such attacks, you'll need actual evidence now. No "other Saints have such spells" or "she must have runes that can do that" or other such nonsense founded on half-baked speculation. You will need to point out actual text from an actual novel that points out she can do what you think she can, or this argument is over.
not really :heh:
I can't really see the difference.
i took away the part with "brun stopped and talked and than got attacked",
but nevermind :)
Any damage is better than no damage. Contrast with the High Priest, who could have taken any number of lightning attacks whilst laughing them off. With Brunhild, it might have taken 100 or even 1000 attacks, but eventually Brunhild would have been KO'd.
or she heals from the "little" damage before getting another attack, and it is "little", there is visibly no damage other than being paralyzed for a moment :/
Only, neither Silvia nor Birdway won their encounters.
well, they didnt lose either :/
Silvia was unable to kill Thor and Birdway actually lost. Especially against a Magician powerful enough to bear the name of Thor as well as the number 2 spot in Gremlin, there was no way Brunhild could know for sure that they would win.
but getting wiped out isnt a option either, fact is that she looked unmotivated in her fight with mikoto, if she was going serious and all out she would feel pressure from her enemy which wasnt the case(according to how she behaved in the fight, even asking the enemy about her reason to fight, from kanzaki SS we saw that she doesnt care about her enemys reasons, if she can get her goal it isnt of any interest)...
Birdway was focused on Touma, but Brunhild and Silvia couldn't have cared less. They fought Thor and Mikoto because they were on the other side. They weren't focused on Touma in particular as long as they could get Kreutune. In fact:

Silvia's first priority when she thought she had beaten Thor was to double team Mikoto into submission. After that, she would have probably moved on to fight Touma 3 on 1. Brunhild was probably thinking the same way.
we cant be sure, different than silvia she lacked the feeling of "i want to with everything i have" :/
I just showed you a quote of Mikoto reacting to Brunhild's supersonic attacks. Clearly the senses provided by her powers, if not her normal human senses, are superhuman. Your belief contradicts the text.
no, she followed the footsteps she created in the iron sand, she never managed to follow bruns speed...
What's impressive here isn't that Mikoto caught a whole building which must have weighed at least a few thousands of tons (based on the fact that the Empire State Building, a 100+ story skyscraper, weighs 365000 tons), but that she was able to ascertain the presence of every single person in that building and protect them. There must have been dozens of people in there, but she did it in what couldn't have been more than a second or two. That's not normal reaction speed.

this is different than the kind of speed needed for the fight at supersonic-lvl,
mikoto can feel the iron and the humans at the same time, what she needs is to use magnetism and save them, in a second or two to do this is impressive but it isnt the same as reacting to super-speed attacks...
Mikoto can breathe whilst submerged in oil by breaking down its chemical composition to extract oxygen from it. Even if that is possible in theory, in practice it wouldn't be feasible if Mikoto didn't possess the ability to perceive and interact with matter on a molecular scale. I admit this isn't a feat of reaction speed, but this is clearly not normal.
cool feat, actually, a REALLY cool feat, with this she could breath underwater as long as she wants :twitch:
Sure, her reactions are slower when surprised. She wasn't able to do anything when Niang Niang suddenly skewered her with dozens of blades, but then again...

...Saints are every bit as vulnerable to unexpected attacks as Mikoto is. Power wise, Saints have an overwhelming advantage over Mikoto, but sense wise? They've got nothing on her.
BIB: only works if they arent using their saint-powers, if they do than their senses are FAR more sharper than usual (they can even see in the night(it is no reacton feat but it proves that the saint-power-up increases their senses power))..
Where is it said that Saints know their spells from birth?
you posted it yourself, the stigmata in their body (which is there since birth) gets released and this gives them superhuman-bodys... no preparation, no tool or chant, magic is clearly involved, it is similar to fiammas HR (if he has it since birth), it is magical, if you set spell = magic than yes, they are born with "spells"...
As far as we know, each Saint has their own method of controlling the power they were born with, which they must master through careful experimentation like every other magician.
everyone must do this, touma was born with his power (as far as we know) and he also needed to master IB (which he still didnt), gemstones are the same and they are stated to be born that way...
As a matter of fact, Acqua was able to move at supersonic speeds in NT10 even after losing his Saint powers by using Curtana Second's power instead. Would an inborn spell be that flexible? I think not.
acqua lost his saint powers (how the absorbtion of 50% gabriel telesma caused this is beyond me but it happened),
there are spells which increase the bodys strength/speed...
BIB: what do you mean with flexible? the saint-power increases their physical-stats to superhuman-lvls, this is it...
Prove to me that the physical enhancement magic of Saints is inborn with actual text, or this argument is over.
the text you posted of Vol.4,
“That’s right, Kami-yan. Didn’t I explain the Idol Theory to you yesterday? Though the crosses on the roofs of churches are fake, as long as the shape is the same, they can obtain a certain amount of power.”

Tsuchimikado explained this really quickly while noticing Kanzaki and Misha’s
movements.

“The same theory can be applied to duplicate items of God. Humans are created in God’s image, so it’s possible to infuse humans with God’s blessing. Of course, only a few people have the privilege to be humans similar to God. Someone like Kanzaki nee-chin, who’s naturally born with the blessing of God, has the proof of a Saint: the Stigma. Once she releases the power of the Stigma, she can, for a short while, gain power that far exceeds a human. Right now, Kanzaki nee-chin can take down an entire city on her own, you know?”
it says she is born with the stigma, and the stigma increases her bodys powers after activation, no need for preperations/tools/chants like in usual spells...
I would have said the same before I saw him in action in Railgun, where he casually batted aside lighting blasts stated to be dozens of times Mikoto's normal output. I could see Gunha beat a Saint through guts.
agree... it also depends on the saint since he could have some super-cheat-spell like something that severs the head from the shoulders without any way of defending :/
other than that, pure body-wise i see gunha winning and it would be a cool good-old-shounen-like fight :heh:
Not sure what you mean by super-healing though. Can you point out where it was said he can do that?
the time in the railgun-manga he got injured with broken bones but they heald in minutes...

Kuroageha

2015-08-27, 14:16

Gunha max speed is mach 2, Saints are far above that.

BladeMancer

2015-08-27, 19:51

Gunha max speed is mach 2, Saints are far above that.
Saints can only go the speed of sound. That's half of Gunha's speed

tsunade666

2015-08-28, 01:05

Saints can only go the speed of sound. That's half of Gunha's speed

They can go higher than that. That is just based speed but the description for saints movement is super sonic speed and Aqua can probably go higher than that.

The speed for Gunha was given that he moves in mach 2 but for the saint speed? the limit isn't mentioned or how fast it is because numbers aren't given.

One can just speculate that they can just pump more mana/telesma/divine energy to move faster.

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-28, 05:45

or she heals from the "little" damage before getting another attack, and it is "little", there is visibly no damage other than being paralyzed for a moment :/

There are very few combat healing spells in TAMNI. Most of the healing spells are like the one that healed Index in OT1, spells that require some setup and time and therefore aren't practical for use in combat. The only exception amongst normal magicians is Vasilisa of the Russian Church and her Water of Life spell.

Not even Kaori has a combat healing spell, or she would have used it after just barely surviving Acqua's ultimate attack in OT16. There's no reason to believe Brunhild has one and you'll need actual text to prove otherwise.

well, they didnt lose either :/

No, Birdway lost. She may have been holding back, but a loss is a loss. As a result, they lost Kreutune, which turned all of NT5 and 6 into a waste of time for them.

but getting wiped out isnt a option either, fact is that she looked unmotivated in her fight with mikoto, if she was going serious and all out she would feel pressure from her enemy which wasnt the case(according to how she behaved in the fight, even asking the enemy about her reason to fight, from kanzaki SS we saw that she doesnt care about her enemys reasons, if she can get her goal it isnt of any interest)...

we cant be sure, different than silvia she lacked the feeling of "i want to with everything i have" :/

Only, it makes no sense for her to hold back. If Brunhild's first attack had hit, Mikoto would be a stain on the asphalt. Since Brunhild didn't know that Mikoto could avoid it, she clearly showed an intent to kill. You hold back in order to avoid killing. If you want to kill, then you don't hold back. It makes no sense to sabotage yourself by holding back when going for the kill.

Plus, even if Brunhild thought that Mikoto wasn't a threat, she should have been wary of Thor. Even a Christian magician like Silvia realized that Thor was only using a small fraction of his real power, so a Norse magician like Brunhild should have known even better. She would have wanted to get rid of Mikoto fast so that she could go on to face the most threatening enemy.

Brunhild only talked to Mikoto after her first attack failed and she got hit by lightning and attacked with a mass of concrete instead. By then it was clear she couldn't kill Mikoto instantly, so she opted to convince her to retreat instead. The moment it was clear that wouldn't work, she didn't hesitate to use her full power against Mikoto.

no, she followed the footsteps she created in the iron sand, she never managed to follow bruns speed...

Mikoto managed to pinpoint Brunhild's position with enough accuracy to interfere with her attacks and hit her with some of her own. That counts as following her speed in my book. She couldn't follow her with her eyes, but she could with her powers and that's pretty much the same thing for all purposes and intents.

this is different than the kind of speed needed for the fight at supersonic-lvl,
mikoto can feel the iron and the humans at the same time, what she needs is to use magnetism and save them, in a second or two to do this is impressive but it isnt the same as reacting to super-speed attacks...

cool feat, actually, a REALLY cool feat, with this she could breath underwater as long as she wants :twitch:

The point is, Misaka's brain has the performance of a supercomputer, capable of making millions of calculations per second. In other words, she thinks fast. I don't think it's that unrealistic for her to process information at the speeds required to keep up against a supersonic opponent.

BIB: only works if they arent using their saint-powers, if they do than their senses are FAR more sharper than usual (they can even see in the night(it is no reacton feat but it proves that the saint-power-up increases their senses power))..

Only, they were both using their Saint powers to beat Othinus and Touma to a pulp, yet Ollerus still managed to get a jump on them and defeat them both at the cost of his arms. It doesn't matter how fast you can move or how sharp your reflexes are when caught 100% off-guard. The only true defense against an unexpected attack is an automatic defense like Accelerator's or an invulnerable body like a Magic God's.

you posted it yourself, the stigmata in their body (which is there since birth) gets released and this gives them superhuman-bodys... no preparation, no tool or chant, magic is clearly involved, it is similar to fiammas HR (if he has it since birth), it is magical, if you set spell = magic than yes, they are born with "spells"...

everyone must do this, touma was born with his power (as far as we know) and he also needed to master IB (which he still didnt), gemstones are the same and they are stated to be born that way...

What I'm saying is Stigmata =/= physical enhancement spells. Stigmata provide lots of power, but there is no evidence that they automatically know spells that use that power to make themselves stronger, faster ect...

Basically I believe they have lots of mana, but have to learn spells to use that mana like every other magician. Until they learn those spells, they might as well not even have all that mana. Can you prove otherwise?

acqua lost his saint powers (how the absorbtion of 50% gabriel telesma caused this is beyond me but it happened),
there are spells which increase the bodys strength/speed...
BIB: what do you mean with flexible? the saint-power increases their physical-stats to superhuman-lvls, this is it...

the text you posted of Vol.4,

it says she is born with the stigma, and the stigma increases her bodys powers after activation, no need for preperations/tools/chants like in usual spells...

About the absorption things, supposedly it damaged his internal organs to the point where his insides were no longer the same shape, destroying his stigmata in the process. It's a miracle he's even still alive and he was ready to die until Hamazura told him to stand up.

Anyway, my argument is based on the following passage:

“I can’t believe they brought out the princess who lost Curtana and the injured man whose insides have been churned up. England must be really shorthanded right now. Mr. Macho, will you really be any help?”

“I have of course lost my powers as a member of God’s Right Seat and as a Saint. However, the methodology for freely manipulating great power still remains within me. I can parry, deflect, and otherwise handle whatever your average magician can throw at me.”

If stigmata = physical enhancement spells, then Acqua would have lost everything, but he didn't. Even without his stigmata, he was able to use the same body enhancement methodology he did as a Saint by drawing upon Curtana Second's power instead. It follows that he wasn't born with those spells, he learned them at a later date to make use of the stigmata he was born with, but since they were something he learned as opposed to being born with, he was able to keep them after losing his Saint status and adapt them to his new circumstances.

In other words, the physical enhancement of Saints are just spells that normal magicians can't cast because they require too much power, but otherwise follow the logic of every other kind of normal spell. They place a burden on Saints such that when they cast other spells, their strength and speed suffers, which leads back to my original argument that Brunhild fighting only with strength and speed was 100% of her power.

agree... it also depends on the saint since he could have some super-cheat-spell like something that severs the head from the shoulders without any way of defending :/
other than that, pure body-wise i see gunha winning and it would be a cool good-old-shounen-like fight :heh:

the time in the railgun-manga he got injured with broken bones but they heald in minutes...

I see. I just figured he was showing off his durability, but that makes sense. Ollerus, who claimed Gunha had a power similar to his, was able to casually reattach a severed arm like it was nothing.

Still, considering that Gunha's power is inexplicable, we really can't predict how a fight vs a Saint would go for him until it actually happens. For all we know, even if they do try a cheat ability on him, it might fail for no apparent reason, or he might crush it with guts. Chances are, we might never know.

BladeMancer

2015-08-28, 06:47

They can go higher than that. That is just based speed but the description for saints movement is super sonic speed and Aqua can probably go higher than that.

The speed for Gunha was given that he moves in mach 2 but for the saint speed? the limit isn't mentioned or how fast it is because numbers aren't given.

One can just speculate that they can just pump more mana/telesma/divine energy to move faster.
Even though Acqua is a saint I would not like to include him in these battles. Being a saint as well as a gods right seat member, it's a bit much. He's basically the accelerator of the saint side, we shouldn't include him because he will ridiculously stomp all the other espers except Accel and Kakine.
Also if I remember the Kanzaki SS correctly it was stated that she could move at the speed of sound. I forgot if it was with magic or just base so forgive me.
Going to bring this up as well, how do we know that mach 2 is Gunha's maximum achievable speed? He probably has something in his repertoire that could further enhance his speed

tsunade666

2015-08-28, 08:48

Even though Acqua is a saint I would not like to include him in these battles. Being a saint as well as a gods right seat member, it's a bit much. He's basically the accelerator of the saint side, we shouldn't include him because he will ridiculously stomp all the other espers except Accel and Kakine.
Also if I remember the Kanzaki SS correctly it was stated that she could move at the speed of sound. I forgot if it was with magic or just base so forgive me.
Going to bring this up as well, how do we know that mach 2 is Gunha's maximum achievable speed? He probably has something in his repertoire that could further enhance his speed

The speed is spell base enhancement that she used. Being saint gave a lots of benefits and buffs but its more on how they used it or mold it.

Gunha's speed is mark and given information just like how railgun in tamni move in mach 3 instead of 7.

They gave the number and exact information. It means something because if it didn't, then its not necessary to specified it and just say that he move in super sonic speed or sonic speed.

Just like its not necessary to say that Misaka's railgun move at mach 3. Even though if we take into account the speed of real railgun. It should move in mach 7 and mach 3 speed is only around rifle speed bullet.

If Gunha receives a power up or something and said that he grows past mach 2, then I'll believe it but since the speed's speed is given. Its safe to say that its been recorded and test by the scientist and so far. That's probably his max speed.

BladeMancer

2015-08-28, 09:03

The speed is spell base enhancement that she used. Being saint gave a lots of benefits and buffs but its more on how they used it or mold it.

Gunha's speed is mark and given information just like how railgun in tamni move in mach 3 instead of 7.

They gave the number and exact information. It means something because if it didn't, then its not necessary to specified it and just say that he move in super sonic speed or sonic speed.

Just like its not necessary to say that Misaka's railgun move at mach 3. Even though if we take into account the speed of real railgun. It should move in mach 7 and mach 3 speed is only around rifle speed bullet.

If Gunha receives a power up or something and said that he grows past mach 2, then I'll believe it but since the speed's speed is given. Its safe to say that its been recorded and test by the scientist and so far. That's probably his max speed.
We also have to consider his guts, he might actually be able to surpass that limit.

tsunade666

2015-08-28, 10:21

We also have to consider his guts, he might actually be able to surpass that limit.

-_-

.............. >_>

Yes, let's based on unscientific way like GUTS to measure him.

That's possible.

Being tested in safe environment doesn't really gave much motivation for someone to break their limit.

LevelSeven

2015-08-28, 10:52

Gunha max speed is mach 2, Saints are far above that.
they are a bit above the speed of sound, acqua managed to overpower kaori easily but as far as i remember it was never said he overcame mach 2 :/

Kuroageha

2015-08-28, 11:09

Can't remember but it said the saints goes several times the speed of sound in various instances in the novel.

LevelSeven

2015-08-28, 12:09

There are very few combat healing spells in TAMNI. Most of the healing spells are like the one that healed Index in OT1, spells that require some setup and time and therefore aren't practical for use in combat. The only exception amongst normal magicians is Vasilisa of the Russian Church and her Water of Life spell.
there is cendrillon and the dvergr, if i rmember correctly she was able to manipulate the body of a human instantly and heal with that right? :/ (doesnt really matter for our discussion but still interesting)

Not even Kaori has a combat healing spell, or she would have used it after just barely surviving Acqua's ultimate attack in OT16. There's no reason to believe Brunhild has one and you'll need actual text to prove otherwise.
what i meant is that since brun never got real damage(aside from "being paralyzed for a short moment) even after getting hit with high-voltage attacks, that it is highly possible to heal/recover before another attack can hit, she didnt show any signs of damage, like: 100 of attacks with a needle on your hand will hurt badly but it wont kill you (and there is still the fact that she can evade most of mikotos attacks via only saint/valkyrie body) :eyespin:
EDIT: i found this after readon kaori SS:
Religious symbols were not embedded about her. She was not surrounded by clearly strange objects.

Brunhild did not need such things.

She…or rather, Norse mythology was not a religion that took control like Christianity. It was a religion that permeated everything so that everyone knew of it without realizing it.

“…Hm.”

She had bruises on the index and middle fingers of her right hand as if a thin fishing line had been wrapped around them. That was the remains of Kanzaki Kaori’s trace. Brunhild slowly poured power into her hand to control the circulation of blood causing the bruises to gradually vanish.
she has hhealing spells who dont even need preparation...

No, Birdway lost. She may have been holding back, but a loss is a loss. As a result, they lost Kreutune, which turned all of NT5 and 6 into a waste of time for them.
i only referred to brun and silvia :)

Only, it makes no sense for her to hold back. If Brunhild's first attack had hit, Mikoto would be a stain on the asphalt. Since Brunhild didn't know that Mikoto could avoid it, she clearly showed an intent to kill. You hold back in order to avoid killing. If you want to kill, then you don't hold back. It makes no sense to sabotage yourself by holding back when going for the kill.
she never gave of the feeling and killing, compare this fight with the one against kanzaki (pre-gungnir)..
A great scraping noise rang out.

It was the sound of the claymore being pulled back to create a gap of a few centimeters between the two blades and then being swung in a curving arc toward Kanzaki once it was free.

It was not simply being swung down with no real thought being put into it.

It was a refined attack.

The strike was fast, sharp, and heavy enough to be referred to in that way. Kanzaki just barely managed to catch it on her long sword. Even a Saint on Kanzaki’s level just barely managed. Immediately after Kanzaki realized that fact, Brunhild began sending blow after blow with her claymore.

The exchange caused a great din with slight intervals like machine gun fire and sent orange sparks flying.

She was not just fast.

She was not just raining blows down.

Each attack was thought out and tried to slip through Kanzaki’s defenses and the blows against her katana held a murderous intent that wore on one’s mind. Kanzaki’s eyes grew sharp as she felt that intent and swung her blade repeatedly at the same speed.

Brunhild did not just force her way through using her abilities as a Saint.

She could only produce such deadly blows because she had not been content with that and had trained and trained to bring herself beyond that.

In other words…
maybe it is only the way of writing but she is way more bloodlusted than how she was with mikoto :eyespin: :)
Plus, even if Brunhild thought that Mikoto wasn't a threat, she should have been wary of Thor. Even a Christian magician like Silvia realized that Thor was only using a small fraction of his real power, so a Norse magician like Brunhild should have known even better. She would have wanted to get rid of Mikoto fast so that she could go on to face the most threatening enemy.
even if thor is #2 im sure they had been aware of their strength,
silvia isnt weak, she is strong enough that carissa and knight leader mentioned how good it was that she wasnt in england whil they tried to take over great britian..

from the beginning they had frau as objective, why using excessive strength to crush someone who was never involved in a pro-gremlin afair? and they knw how strong birdway was, letting her handle touma would be a easy victory for them if birdway was serious, under such favorable circumstances i dont see a need to actually force all of her abilities out (exspecially for people who use spells (since they can be analyzed and than used against them))...
Brunhild only talked to Mikoto after her first attack failed and she got hit by lightning and attacked with a mass of concrete instead. By then it was clear she couldn't kill Mikoto instantly, so she opted to convince her to retreat instead. The moment it was clear that wouldn't work, she didn't hesitate to use her full power against Mikoto.
i didnt really see it that way, brun asked her why she involved herself and she answered with soemthing touma-related, afterwards she simply went on her own pace against her (this is another reason why i dont think that brun used everything, the fight was mostly on her terms, mikoto got hit with lightning and im not sure for the railgun)...
Mikoto managed to pinpoint Brunhild's position with enough accuracy to interfere with her attacks and hit her with some of her own. That counts as following her speed in my book. She couldn't follow her with her eyes, but she could with her powers and that's pretty much the same thing for all purposes and intents.
mikoto created a iron-sand-wall and stopped her attack for a second, and got hit with one lightning attack...
if, for example a piece of stone was thrown at her she would be seriously hurt :/
The point is, Misaka's brain has the performance of a supercomputer, capable of making millions of calculations per second. In other words, she thinks fast.
BIB: which lvl5 doesnt have this? :heh:
I don't think it's that unrealistic for her to process information at the speeds required to keep up against a supersonic opponent.
calculating variables(i actually doubt that they are made consciously, mostlikely it is like the way how mahouka explained it, their subconscious makes the calculations) isnt the same as analyzing incoming information, otherwise accel would have seen toumas/kiharas/skill-out-leaders movements in slow-motion (even if the season 1 anime made it look like that, im not sure, did accel think while the bullet was shot or before the trigger was pulled?)
Only, they were both using their Saint powers to beat Othinus and Touma to a pulp, yet Ollerus still managed to get a jump on them and defeat them both at the cost of his arms. It doesn't matter how fast you can move or how sharp your reflexes are when caught 100% off-guard. The only true defense against an unexpected attack is an automatic defense like Accelerator's or an invulnerable body like a Magic God's.
agree... (this is why i think snipers are awesome :D )
What I'm saying is Stigmata =/= physical enhancement spells. Stigmata provide lots of power, but there is no evidence that they automatically know spells that use that power to make themselves stronger, faster ect...
the quote only said that they release the stigmata and gain superhuman powers... later we find out that it is thanks to telesma, and we have already seen magicians with passive(spells/magic with their subconsciousness) abilities (like the elfe in kaori SS or fiamma with HR)
Basically I believe they have lots of mana, but have to learn spells to use that mana like every other magician. Until they learn those spells, they might as well not even have all that mana. Can you prove otherwise?
the text never said that they used spells for superhuman movement, others, like birdway or cendrillon did, but saints are said to be so awesome because they have this advantage over normal magicians... the amount of mana actually never was a factor, i dont even remember reading a part in toaru where a magician had drained his own mana...
About the absorption things, supposedly it damaged his internal organs to the point where his insides were no longer the same shape, destroying his stigmata in the process. It's a miracle he's even still alive and he was ready to die until Hamazura told him to stand up.
a simple healing spell would recover all internal injuries... i always thought it had something to with the balance between saint-power and mother-mercy, and since he went over his limits with the telesma he destroyed what made him a saint(and with that mother mercy)
furthermore, if his body somehow went out of "shape" it should cause him health-issues :/
If stigmata = physical enhancement spells, then Acqua would have lost everything, but he didn't. Even without his stigmata, he was able to use the same body enhancement methodology he did as a Saint by drawing upon Curtana Second's power instead.
? he only had his "methadology to manipulate great power", it is the ability to control his saint-abilities which he mastered, the way i understand it is that the power is gone but he still had the experience, he is like birdway, she was able to use telesma-explosions and the novel said that without pinpoint-experience she would blow herself into pieces...
It follows that he wasn't born with those spells, he learned them at a later date to make use of the stigmata he was born with, but since they were something he learned as opposed to being born with, he was able to keep them after losing his Saint status and adapt them to his new circumstances.

it there a part in the LN which said that he had to learn spells in order to become a saint(or get his superhuman abilitys via stigmata)?
In other words, the physical enhancement of Saints are just spells that normal magicians can't cast because they require too much power, but otherwise follow the logic of every other kind of normal spell.
if so acqua, knight leader and carissa should be saints too, afterall they can get the same abilities with spells,
the hugh advantage of saints is because they dont only have magical abilities on par or above others but also have their superhuman bodys...
Each attack was thought out and tried to slip through Kanzaki’s defenses and the blows against her katana held a murderous intent that wore on one’s mind. Kanzaki’s eyes grew sharp as she felt that intent and swung her blade repeatedly at the same speed.

Brunhild did not just force her way through using her abilities as a Saint.

She could only produce such deadly blows because she had not been content with that and had trained and trained to bring herself beyond that.
They place a burden on Saints such that when they cast other spells, their strength and speed suffers, which leads back to my original argument that Brunhild fighting only with strength and speed was 100% of her power.
the quote of acqua vs knight leader only referred to knight leader, he was in a dangerous situation and needed more spells, but he would lose speed if he added more strength, acqua on the other hand had both without need for more,

it is as if knight leader managed to lvl up with spells to saint lvl, but saints gain instantly this lvl after activating the stigma, they can go above it and get even stronger...
Still, considering that Gunha's power is inexplicable, we really can't predict how a fight vs a Saint would go for him until it actually happens. For all we know, even if they do try a cheat ability on him, it might fail for no apparent reason, or he might crush it with guts. Chances are, we might never know.
agree, it depends on "who is the correct one" XD
@kuro
Can't remember but it said the saints goes several times the speed of sound in various instances in the novel.
i dont remember readin this, at most they had been sonic-lvl and a bit above, even double-saint-acqua didnt got described as "above mach 2-3" (or close)

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-28, 22:50

there is cendrillon and the dvergr, if i rmember correctly she was able to manipulate the body of a human instantly and heal with that right? :/ (doesnt really matter for our discussion but still interesting)

She's good at manipulating human flesh, but we don't know if she can fix people as fast as she can mess them up. We never actually saw her fix anyone directly, just mutilate them (to this day, that trick with the human blood faucet still makes me shiver a bit). But yeah, it's not relevant.

what i meant is that since brun never got real damage(aside from "being paralyzed for a short moment) even after getting hit with high-voltage attacks, that it is highly possible to heal/recover before another attack can hit, she didnt show any signs of damage, like: 100 of attacks with a needle on your hand will hurt badly but it wont kill you (and there is still the fact that she can evade most of mikotos attacks via only saint/valkyrie body) :eyespin:
EDIT: i found this after readon kaori SS:

she has hhealing spells who dont even need preparation...

Nicely caught. Still, that healing spell you mentioned works by controlling blood circulation. It doesn't actually fix the affected tissues, it just mitigates the damage to them and sets up ideal conditions for natural healing. However, lighting inflicts damage through burns and messing up the nervous system, neither of which can be treated by manipulating blood.

Also, you say that Brunhild was "just" paralyzed for a second as if that's no big deal. This isn't Pokemon where you can be hit by a Thunder Wave and then be fine one Paralyz Heal later, being paralyzed means that the signals in your nervous system are being scrambled. In fact, in most cases most of the damage from lightning strikes come in the form of brain injuries, rather than burns, which can have long lasting or even permanent effects even on survivors. Even if her body was mostly fine, the damage to Brunhild's nervous system would have accumulated bit by bit with each strike, eventually leading to her demise.

i only referred to brun and silvia :)

Who would have been in a position to help Birdway had they been able to get rid of their respective enemies.

she never gave of the feeling and killing, compare this fight with the one against kanzaki (pre-gungnir)..

maybe it is only the way of writing but she is way more bloodlusted than how she was with mikoto :eyespin: :)

She was more worked up against Kaori, yes, but Brunhild is not so immature as to hold back just because she doesn't hate her opponent. In NT10, she did not hesitate to use her full strength against Othinus, despite the fact that she hated the idea of kicking an opponent who was down, much like what was done to herself. Wether Brunhild is blood lusted or not, her performance doesn't change one bit.

even if thor is #2 im sure they had been aware of their strength,
silvia isnt weak, she is strong enough that carissa and knight leader mentioned how good it was that she wasnt in england whil they tried to take over great britian..

Even so, a Saint is a Saint, not a god. It would pay to be cautious when facing him.

from the beginning they had frau as objective, why using excessive strength to crush someone who was never involved in a pro-gremlin afair? and they knw how strong birdway was, letting her handle touma would be a easy victory for them if birdway was serious, under such favorable circumstances i dont see a need to actually force all of her abilities out (exspecially for people who use spells (since they can be analyzed and than used against them))...

Again, this argument doesn't stand because of the simple fact that Brunhild tried to kill Mikoto. Once you step on the battlefield of your own will, you lose the right to complain if you get killed. Mikoto chose to stand in the way, so she had to die, simple as that. If you were correct, then Brunhild wouldn't have tried to kill her, she would have just tried to stall for time. Until you can resolve the contradiction of holding back, yet trying to kill, you have no real argument.

The idea that Brunhild was cautious against having her spells analyzed is laughable. If you don't use spells when you need them, then what's the point of having them? So what if they can be analyzed? Saints aren't that easy to defeat, or they wouldn't be regarded as special.

i didnt really see it that way, brun asked her why she involved herself and she answered with soemthing touma-related, afterwards she simply went on her own pace against her (this is another reason why i dont think that brun used everything, the fight was mostly on her terms, mikoto got hit with lightning and im not sure for the railgun)...

Then why didn't Brunhild talk to Mikoto until after she had already tried to kill her?

mikoto created a iron-sand-wall and stopped her attack for a second, and hit with one lightning attack...
if, for example a piece of stone was thrown at her she would be seriously hurt :/

Mikoto has reacted to explosions before. The explosive wave of TNT, for reference, moves at almost 7 km/s. Other explosions are around that speed or higher. Either way, much faster than even a Saint or anything they can throw.

BIB: which lvl5 doesnt have this? :heh:

That's my point. You can't judge level 5s using human standards anymore than you can judge Saints that way.

calculating variables (i actually doubt that they are made consciously, mostlikely it is like the way how mahouka explained it, their subconscious makes the calculations) isnt the same as analyzing incoming information, otherwise accel would have seen toumas/kiharas/skill-out-leaders movements in slow-motion (even if the season 1 anime made it look like that, im not sure, did accel think while the bullet was shot or before the trigger was pulled?)

Here's an exchange between Mitsuki and Kuroko:

“Back to the original topic; the limitation of your ability is probably that you tried to calculate the space that you didn’t have to handle in the first place. It might be better for you if you streamline your calculations.”

“…Thanks for your concern, but the manipulation of three dimensions is different from that of eleven.”

Mitsuki gave Kuroko advice on how to calculate. If calculations were subconscious, there would be no meaning in such advice, as Kuroko wouldn't be able to consciously control them. The fact that Mitsuki gave advice proves that calculations in TAMNI Espers are done consciously.

Even if high calculation speed isn't quite the same as the heightened awareness of Saints, used right, it can be enough to keep up with them. Mikoto used it right.

agree... (this is why i think snipers are awesome :D )

Sadly, snipers in this series don't usually end well. Aside from that one Sister who tried sniping Accelerator, we have Sunazara Chimitsu, who was greviously wounded fighting Kinuhata Saiai (whose auto-defence patterns were inherited for Accelerator; I think I see a pattern here).

the quote only said that they release the stigmata and gain superhuman powers... later we find out that it is thanks to telesma, and we have already seen magicians with passive(spells/magic with their subconsciousness) abilities (like the elfe in kaori SS or fiamma with HR)

the text never said that they used spells for superhuman movement, others, like birdway or cendrillon did, but saints are said to be so awesome because they have this advantage over normal magicians... the amount of mana actually never was a factor, i dont even remember reading a part in toaru where a magician had drained his own mana...

a simple healing spell would recover all internal injuries... i always thought it had something to with the balance between saint-power and mother-mercy, and since he went over his limits with the telesma he destroyed what made him a saint(and with that mother mercy)
furthermore, if his body somehow went out of "shape" it should cause him health-issues :/

? he only had his "methadology to manipulate great power", it is the ability to control his saint-abilities which he mastered, the way i understand it is that the power is gone but he still had the experience, he is like birdway, she was able to use telesma-explosions and the novel said that without pinpoint-experience she would blow herself into pieces...

it there a part in the LN which said that he had to learn spells in order to become a saint(or get his superhuman abilitys via stigmata)?

if so acqua, knight leader and carissa should be saints too, afterall they can get the same abilities with spells,
the hugh advantage of saints is because they dont only have magical abilities on par or above others but also have their superhuman bodys...

the quote of acqua vs knight leader only referred to knight leader, he was in a dangerous situation and needed more spells, but he would lose speed if he added more strength, acqua on the other hand had both without need for more,

it is as if knight leader managed to lvl up with spells to saint lvl, but saints gain instantly this lvl after activating the stigma, they can go above it and get even stronger...

You misinterpreted the quote I gave you. Read again:

Knight Leader, while holding down the greatsword of the mercenary, said with a steady voice,

“Or you can forgo weapons and use magic - yes, in your case, you might be able to kill me with your runes or such. Perhaps you would like to try?” <--- [Knight leader is saying this. He's jokingly saying that Acqua could get past the Thorom's Defense Formula, which drops the attack value of weapons to 0, by not using weapons and using attack spells instead. I don't know how you remembered this fight, but Acqua was losing badly because Knight Leader could negate all his attacks whilst using his "Pattern Manipulation" spells to attack with impunity. Acqua won not because he was stronger, but because he was more clever]

His suggestion wasn’t made seriously - his tone had conveyed that. The speed of William and Knight Leader were equal. If he <--- [meaning Acqua] were to neglect the techniques which governed his body in favor of other kinds of magic, he <--- [Acqua again] would be quickly cut down and killed.

“This power was lent to me to protect England through the Original Curtana. A mercenary who would throw the country into chaos for his own sentiments without any thoughts of consequences, will never be able to kill me.”

This shows that using their stigmata to boost their body is not automatic, they need to concentrate on it, like any other spell. Thus if they try doing something else, it affects overall performance. I admit I cannot prove 100% that the spells using power from stigmata to enhance their bodies aren't inherent, but at this point it doesn't matter. I just need to prove that using the power that way places a burden on both their minds and bodies, and I have.

Brunhild's physical enhancements and the offensive spells in her sword represent 100% of her power. She has nothing else and if she added more on top of that, then without an OP tool like Gungnir, it would make her weaker, not stronger.

On another note, Acqua is suffering from his organ damage. He's just badass enough to ignore it. TAMNI magic healing is generally not that much better than medical science. Healing damage on that level is beyond it. Fiamma's arm, for instance, is still gone.

agree, it depends on "who is the correct one" XD

Won't stop us from discussing it, though.

LevelSeven

2015-08-29, 12:55

She's good at manipulating human flesh, but we don't know if she can fix people as fast as she can mess them up. We never actually saw her fix anyone directly, just mutilate them (to this day, that trick with the human blood faucet still makes me shiver a bit). But yeah, it's not relevant.
we know she can at least heal people (since she healed othinus's arm)
i would say that she can heal, maybe not "being sick" but from her manipulation-powers it seems like wounds on flesh (like normal injuries) could be healed rather easily :eyespin:
Nicely caught.
thanks :D
Still, that healing spell you mentioned works by controlling blood circulation. It doesn't actually fix the affected tissues, it just mitigates the damage to them and sets up ideal conditions for natural healing. However, lighting inflicts damage through burns and messing up the nervous system, neither of which can be treated by manipulating blood.
true...
Also, you say that Brunhild was "just" paralyzed for a second as if that's no big deal. This isn't Pokemon where you can be hit by a Thunder Wave and then be fine one Paralyz Heal later, being paralyzed means that the signals in your nervous system are being scrambled. In fact, in most cases most of the damage from lightning strikes come in the form of brain injuries, rather than burns, which can have long lasting or even permanent effects even on survivors. Even if her body was mostly fine, the damage to Brunhild's nervous system would have accumulated bit by bit with each strike, eventually leading to her demise.
first BIB: au contraire, until now it is strangely like that, kuroko and touma are prime exampels :heh:

second BIB: it should happen like that, but if someone with normal human endurance manages to get up shortly after being hit several times (despite mikoto holding back unconsciously) and this without aftereffects i wouldnt set it past a saint to survive it too (yeah, they are as 'fragile' as humans but after they use their powers they obviously get a endurance boost because a human bod wouldnt survive mach 1 movement...)

third BIB: a good way to turn back a seemingly doomed situation :heh: on the other hand, forcing someone to work at someones limits can easily cause this too, brun forces mikoto to fight on this concentration-lvl for 10 minutes or more would only become harming for her... (the LN never showed a sign of it but the same is for bruns aftereffects against the lightning :/ )

in short: it could cause such things, but it didnt give us the smallest signs that it would happen :/
Who would have been in a position to help Birdway had they been able to get rid of their respective enemies.
i doubt that she understaminates her enemys but birdways even while holding back was able to get victory if mikotos railgun hadnt involved itself...
plus, brun had the upper hand over the whle fight, on the other hand mikoto was mostly on the defense, the latter even needed to use her most powerful move :/ at least for me it doesnt sound like someone who would go all out if it wasnt necessary :/
She was more worked up against Kaori, yes, but Brunhild is not so immature as to hold back just because she doesn't hate her opponent. In NT10, she did not hesitate to use her full strength against Othinus, despite the fact that she hated the idea of kicking an opponent who was down, much like what was done to herself. Wether Brunhild is blood lusted or not, her performance doesn't change one bit.
BIB: i dont agree completly, she is serious in what she does but she doesnt do it without thinking, in NT10 the inner monologues showed that she was thinking about a possibility that othinus would have lost her power forever,
on the other hand if her performance would be unaffected othinus would be dead since they met with her (the best and most simple route)...
she can be cruel if she wants to, (kaori SS) but she wasnt, not even in NT10 (exspecially since there was no personal grudge between her and her opponents)...
Even so, a Saint is a Saint, not a god. It would pay to be cautious when facing him.
of course, but not always is 100% needed :/

Again, this argument doesn't stand because of the simple fact that Brunhild tried to kill Mikoto. Once you step on the battlefield of your own will, you lose the right to complain if you get killed. Mikoto chose to stand in the way, so she had to die, simple as that. If you were correct, then Brunhild wouldn't have tried to kill her, she would have just tried to stall for time. Until you can resolve the contradiction of holding back, yet trying to kill, you have no real argument.
wouldnt both work?
killing and holding her back both stop her from getting into birdway vs touma (and with that into the fight with Frau as price)...
(Should I simply accept that she can’t use her full power?)

She used a single hand to pull out the sword that had enough weight to crush a car. She rested it on her shoulder and approached Othinus and the crushed bench.

(Is her loss of power temporary or permanent? It’s hard to say, but I should kill her while I have the chance.)

She frowned a bit as she thought.
why going all out against someone who isnt even a inevitable enemy? NT10 showed that she doesnt like killing, at least she doesnt kill without reason, and she also thinks about the pros and cons, othinus was a wild card and she could become dangerous for the boy so she thought that killing her was the better choice,
mikoto on the other hand was someone fighting for touma and actually didnt even have a real role in the whole mess... killing her wouldnt help anyone...

The idea that Brunhild was cautious against having her spells analyzed is laughable. If you don't use spells when you need them, then what's the point of having them? So what if they can be analyzed? Saints aren't that easy to defeat, or they wouldn't be regarded as special.
BIB: who said that she needed them? from the beginning she had the upper hand, i cant remember a part where she was in serious danger, using spells to kill someone who wasnt even involved with the real stuff and only played a side role while exposing potential weaknesses doesnt make sense does it? :eyespin: (exspecially for someone who can think about the matter calmly like brun showed in NT10)

Then why didn't Brunhild talk to Mikoto until after she had already tried to kill her?
she did ask her if she was a enemy:Her name was Brunhild Eiktobel.

Without even trying to hide her killer intent or aggression, the blonde-haired, blue-eyed woman asked a question in a flat voice.

“Are you my enemy?”

“It’s kind of hard to say.”

Mikoto then heard a voice from behind her.

She was standing back to back with the Lightning God Thor who was in charge of direct combat within Gremlin.

He was facing a different enemy.

“C’mon, Miko-chan.”

“I told you not to call me that! Who the hell are you anyway!?”

“They have formed a group to beat the shit out of Kamijou Touma, who has already been shot in the side, and then abduct a woman named Fräulein Kreutune before his eyes. And they’ll be whispering to Fräulein Kreutune that she’ll be happiest if they use her for their purposes and then kill her. So what do you think, Miko-chan? Do you approve of that? Do you oppose it? Or will you take the clever route and just look away? Which side do you want to stand on?”

“…”

Mikoto sighed.

With an annoyed tone in her voice, she said, “So it’s the same pattern as always.”

“Now you’re catching on.”

“I guess he hasn’t changed at all even after disappearing in Hawaii and heading to that Baggage City place.”

“I heard that was a horrible battlefield, but it seems he still managed to save some lives. I have no room to talk…in fact, you could say I’m just as much to blame…but Kamijou Touma is trying to finish things with the person you could call the primary cause of all this. Will you support him? Or will you get in his way?”

“Tch.”

There was plenty she wanted to say.

But Mikoto just gave up and lightly clicked her tongue.

She did so because she had seen it. She had seen the look of anguish on a certain boy’s face after the incident in Hawaii had come to an end and he had realized he had been made to act for someone else’s purposes. He had fought, struggled, had some coincidences work in his favor, and had finally managed to reach a place where he could bring an end to the string of nightmares for which he had pulled the trigger himself. This was a one-of-a-kind situation that would never come again if he let it escape him here.

So now what should Mikoto do?

No, what did she want to do?

She did not even hesitate.

Bluish-white sparks flew from her bangs.

She slowly turned back to face Brunhild Eiktobel who was still approaching.
on the other hand mikto initiated the fight after hearing thors "explanation" :/

Mikoto has reacted to explosions before. The explosive wave of TNT, for reference, moves at almost 7 km/s. Other explosions are around that speed or higher. Either way, much faster than even a Saint or anything they can throw.
you mean the graviton bomb?

That's my point. You can't judge level 5s using human standards anymore than you can judge Saints that way.
they are mostly human, other than calculation speed (which is really strange to be conscious) they are like other humans :/ (and of course their esper powers)

Mitsuki gave Kuroko advice on how to calculate. If calculations were subconscious, there would be no meaning in such advice, as Kuroko wouldn't be able to consciously control them. The fact that Mitsuki gave advice proves that calculations in TAMNI Espers are done consciously.
thanks... i still think that the "subconscious-calculation"-explanation makes far more sense :/

Even if high calculation speed isn't quite the same as the heightened awareness of Saints, used right, it can be enough to keep up with them. Mikoto used it right.
mikoto may be able to hold herself for some time but she was always on the defense, i doubt that she could keep up if the fight went on for a longer time...
Sadly, snipers in this series don't usually end well. Aside from that one Sister who tried sniping Accelerator, we have Sunazara Chimitsu, who was greviously wounded fighting Kinuhata Saiai (whose auto-defence patterns were inherited for Accelerator; I think I see a pattern here).
since we talk abotu suprise shots: the laser in WW3 also was against fiamma who had "conveniently" his passive-HR-protection :/ (i see the patter too) :heh:
You misinterpreted the quote I gave you. Read again:
i really have misinterpreted it :eyespin:
This shows that using their stigmata to boost their body is not automatic, they need to concentrate on it, like any other spell.
if they need to open it than they of course need to control it consciously, it is like the super sayajin mode, if you lose consciousness you will lose the mode even it it is something given with birth... and saints are simply way more fragile...
if they go over their limits they injure themselfes...

Thus if they try doing something else, it affects overall performance.
kaori did other stuff like more spells in OT4 but her overall performance only increased :/
btw, the acqua vs knight leader was a fight on sonic-lvl, ven if bruns speed dropped by the half she would still have been hard to get for mikoto :eyespin:

I admit I cannot prove 100% that the spells using power from stigmata to enhance their bodies aren't inherent, but at this point it doesn't matter. I just need to prove that using the power that way places a burden on both their minds and bodies, and I have.
BIB: you mean where they drop in specific parts like speed in favor for other things?
but kaori showed that she could even increase her overall stats via spells, and this plus her saint-powers :/
Brunhild's physical enhancements and the offensive spells in her sword represent 100% of her power. She has nothing else and if she added more on top of that, then without an OP tool like Gungnir, it would make her weaker, not stronger.
BIB: she still has runes, which got already mentioned, and, you only showed a exampel where someone was stated to be at his limits...

to sum it up: you tried to show that brun wasnt able to use spells in order to show that she didnt went easy in mikoto right? (that she used 100% of her strength)

the problem which i see is that the novel never showed how much bruns/acquas speed would drop, i agree that in a fight at sonic-speed it would make a big difference if you drop by 10% but against mikoto this was hardly a issue(even 50%-drop are still 150m/s), therefore it wouldnt stop her from using spells and finishing the fight... that she didnt (and the fact that she doesnt kill people easily (if she doesnt have a personal reason)) shows for me that she held back against mikoto...
On another note, Acqua is suffering from his organ damage. He's just badass enough to ignore it. TAMNI magic healing is generally not that much better than medical science. Healing damage on that level is beyond it. Fiamma's arm, for instance, is still gone.
BIB: fiammas arm isnt really a normal one :/
as for the other stuff: but they can heal things like injuries, and damage in inner organs are also no problem (OT1), maybe kamachi simply ignores it for the sake of a nerfed-acqua :/
Won't stop us from discussing it, though.
yeah :D

Doom_Paperclip

2015-08-30, 06:14

first BIB: au contraire, until now it is strangely like that, kuroko and touma are prime exampels :heh:

No. In their cases, it is outright stated that Mikoto reduces the intensity of her current so that they won't be badly hurt. It's not exactly safe, but not deadly either. You noted this yourself.

second BIB: it should happen like that, but if someone with normal human endurance manages to get up shortly after being hit several times (despite mikoto holding back unconsciously) and this without aftereffects i wouldnt set it past a saint to survive it too (yeah, they are as 'fragile' as humans but after they use their powers they obviously get a endurance boost because a human bod wouldnt survive mach 1 movement...)

That's why it would take 100 or even 1000 bolts to beat Brunhild. I acknowledge that the damage each attack inflicts is low, but since unlike with the High Priest the damage is not 0, I affirm that enough attacks would defeat a Saint.

third BIB: a good way to turn back a seemingly doomed situation :heh: on the other hand, forcing someone to work at someones limits can easily cause this too, brun forces mikoto to fight on this concentration-lvl for 10 minutes or more would only become harming for her... (the LN never showed a sign of it but the same is for bruns aftereffects against the lightning :/ )

in short: it could cause such things, but it didnt give us the smallest signs that it would happen :/

Actually, a protracted battle would be far harder on Brunhild than on Mikoto. Here's yet another quote from OT4:

The continuous movements that were beyond an ordinary human body’s capabilities caused Kanzaki’s body temperature to rise abnormally, her blood flow was pulsating crazily, she was severely lacking oxygen, and her muscles and bones were creaking. That pain went beyond the fever; it could be said to be worse than taking poison.

But Kanzaki didn’t stop.

With such savage and suicidal intent, she continued to hack at the water wings one by one, not letting up.

Kanzaki Kaori was holding off the angel’s attacks, getting closer to death.

Every move she took, she could clearly feel her body being eroded. Every time she swung the Shichiten Shichitou, the overwork would rip her joints and twitch her blood vessels. The organs that were unable to get enough oxygen were prompting Kanzaki’s brain in pain.

As you pointed out, a normal body wouldn't be able to handle supersonic movements. A Saint's spells also increase their physical endurance so that they can function even at those crazy speeds, but that is not a perfect solution.

In a very real sense, the greatest danger to a Saint in battle usually doesn't come from their enemies, but from their selves. Even if it is no more than a millionth of the power of Christ, that's still way more than a human body can handle. Even using it normally kills them bit by bit every second. Losing control even for a hundredth of a second would kill them instantly.

Leaving aside a double Saint like Acqua (and possibly Silvia, since apparently she gets extra power from being a Royal Maid), for a normal Saint, any use of their power that drags on for more than a few minutes becomes agonizing. That's why Kaori usually uses cars and other normal means of transportation for long distance travel. Their supersonic movements aren't just meant to overwhelm the opponent, but also to cut the time they need to spend fighting to the bare minimum. Most enemies won't even last a minute, so in 99.99% of cases, it isn't a problem.

Fighting Mikoto is clearly not as taxing as fighting Misha, but even so, letting the battle drag on for longer than needed would have been pure idiocy on Brunhild's part. In a battle of attrition, Brunhild would wear down faster than Mikoto. Add the fact that Mikoto was also inflicting a little damage, no matter how small, and you have a recipie for disaster.

i doubt that she understaminates her enemys but birdways even while holding back was able to get victory if mikotos railgun hadnt involved itself...
plus, brun had the upper hand over the whle fight, on the other hand mikoto was mostly on the defense, the latter even needed to use her most powerful move :/ at least for me it doesnt sound like someone who would go all out if it wasnt necessary :/

Battles are fickle things. Even if you spend 99% of the battle clearly on top, you can still lose at the very last second due to unexpected factors. Just look at Knight Leader vs Acqua, or Acqua himself vs Kaori, the Amakusa and Touma. Heck, Brunhild experienced this herself when she fought Kaori with the 70% Gungnir.

After losing one battle she thought she would win hands down, do you really believe she would risk making the same mistake again? Even Accelerator, who is brain damaged, learned not to underestimate level 0s after his defeat.

BIB: i dont agree completly, she is serious in what she does but she doesnt do it without thinking, in NT10 the inner monologues showed that she was thinking about a possibility that othinus would have lost her power forever,
on the other hand if her performance would be unaffected othinus would be dead since they met with her (the best and most simple route)...
she can be cruel if she wants to, (kaori SS) but she wasnt, not even in NT10 (exspecially since there was no personal grudge between her and her opponents)...

Actually:

Brunhild Eiktobel narrowed her clever eyes.

She stabbed her large sword into the snow and dryly observed. As she watched, a wooden bench was smashed to pieces and an eyepatch-wearing girl lay in the center of the rubble.

She had not held back.

In fact, she had been more cautious than necessary.

(She’s showing surprisingly little resistance.)

That was her honest opinion.

The text outright says she did not hold back. In other words, as I said, her performance did not drop. There are two reasons Othinus didn't die:

1) Brunhild was weary of Othinus' power, not aware that she had lost most of it. She might have attacked with less ferocity because of this.

2) Othinus is a Magic God, not a human. Even on the very brink of death from the Fairy Spell, we saw she still had the power to fire the Crossbow once, which could destroy the Earth several times over. She could take punishment a lot better than Touma.

of course, but not always is 100% needed :/

But you can't know in advance when 100% is needed and when it is not, so why risk it? Again, Brunhild should know this because she learned it the hard way.

wouldnt both work?
killing and holding her back both stop her from getting into birdway vs touma (and with that into the fight with Frau as price)...

It's more efficient to commit to one strategy or the other. Either kill, or hold back and stall. Doing things half-way just makes it less likely to achieve either goal. So to answer your question, no, both wouldn't work.

why going all out against someone who isnt even a inevitable enemy? NT10 showed that she doesnt like killing, at least she doesnt kill without reason, and she also thinks about the pros and cons, othinus was a wild card and she could become dangerous for the boy so she thought that killing her was the better choice,
mikoto on the other hand was someone fighting for touma and actually didnt even have a real role in the whole mess... killing her wouldnt help anyone...

What Brunhild dislikes isn't the act of killing per se. Just read the lines that come directly after your quote:

She herself was a magician whose power increased and decreased between extremes on a set cycle, much like the waxing and waning of the moon. A cruel magic cabal had once taken advantage of that and destroyed those around her.

She was doing the same here.

What she disliked was that she was acting no different from the cabal that tormented her. Killing itself is fine, but killing an opponent in a moment of weakness when they can't use their power is distasteful.

Mikoto was fully able to use her power and had no handicaps hindering her, so Brunhild wouldn't find the idea of killing her displeasing in the slightest. You asked me why Brunhild should kill someone who isn't necessarily an enemy. Let me flip that question around for you. Why should Brunhild go through so much trouble to spare someone who isn't even an ally?

Brunhild isn't Kaori. She isn't a kindly soul who honestly wishes for the salvation of every person on the planet. She cares for the wellbeing of one person and one alone, and she was perfectly willing to complete Gungnir and devastate the world to protect him. Everyone else can go to hell for all she cares. If Mikoto, her sisters, her family and friends all died in a fire, Brunhild wouldn't shed a single tear.

BIB: who said that she needed them? from the beginning she had the upper hand, i cant remember a part where she was in serious danger, using spells to kill someone who wasnt even involved with the real stuff and only played a side role while exposing potential weaknesses doesnt make sense does it? :eyespin: (exspecially for someone who can think about the matter calmly like brun showed in NT10)

Your argument is flawed. You see, Brunhild already has a few, major, known and exploitable weaknesses: she's a Saint and a Valkyrie. Stigmata provide part of Christ's power, but they also provide weaknesses to the symbols of his death, which are exploited by spells like the Saint Destroyer. I assume Valkyries have similar weaknesses. Furthermore, her two powers conflict with each other, sometimes leaving her with no power at all.

Anyone trying to attack Brunhild by analyzing her would attack these weaknesses. She loses nothing by showing all her cards, because the enemy already knows what cards she has.

she did ask her if she was a enemy:

on the other hand mikto initiated the fight after hearing thors "explanation" :/

Again, nicely spotted. It doesn't change my argument much, though.

you mean the graviton bomb?

I was thinking more along the lines of the battle with Frenda, but there's more than that. The thing is, between TAMNI, Railgun and all the other spin-offs, Misaka has been attacked with all kinds of firearms and explosives, not to mention a wide range of futuristic weapons and supernatural powers. If she couldn't react to supersonic attacks, she would have died a million times over already.

they are mostly human, other than calculation speed (which is really strange to be conscious) they are like other humans :/ (and of course their esper powers)

By that logic, Saints are mostly human, other than their Stigmata. They certainly aren't monsters like Kakine or Magic Gods, who are only human in shape, but filled with entirely different substance.

thanks... i still think that the "subconscious-calculation"-explanation makes far more sense :/

Then how do you explain that they can chose how to do their calculations? Also, on a side note, I despise Mahouka.

mikoto may be able to hold herself for some time but she was always on the defense, i doubt that she could keep up if the fight went on for a longer time...

I'm not arguing that Mikoto is stronger than Brunhild, or that she would have won. I'm arguing that Brunhild used 100% of her power against Mikoto and, by extension, claim that Mikoto's power level isn't that much lower than a Saint's. Don't muddle the issue at hand.

kaori did other stuff like more spells in OT4 but her overall performance only increased :/
BIB: you mean where they drop in specific parts like speed in favor for other things?
but kaori showed that she could even increase her overall stats via spells, and this plus her saint-powers :/

Not really. She mostly used Yuisen to cut Misha's wings and only used her wires to slow the speed of the wings enough so she wouldn't be overwhelmed by them.

Besides, each magician has their own combat style. Kaori built her style around her sword and the seven wires attached to it and the balance of spells she uses is built so that she fights at her best in that way. Clearly Brunhild decided that her ideal fighting style is one where she doesn't need spells other than those in her body and blade.

btw, the acqua vs knight leader was a fight on sonic-lvl, ven if bruns speed dropped by the half she would still have been hard to get for mikoto :eyespin:

Hard, but still easier than before. Say Brunhild dropped her physical boosts by half. Then she'd be hit twice as often for twice the damage, ending up taking four times the wounds.

Plus, it's not just a matter of speed. Mikoto was affecting Brunhild's sword with magnetism, which cannot be dodged as it travels at the speed of light. If her strength dropped below Mikoto's magnetic field, she wouldn't be able to attack her with her main weapon at all.

BIB: she still has runes, which got already mentioned, and, you only showed a exampel where someone was stated to be at his limits...

None of the runes she was shown to be able to use were usable in her battle against Mikoto. I won't accept the idea that Brunhild has attack runes she hasn't shown yet without good reason. If we go down the path of accepting unproven speculation, eventually we'll reach the point where we can speculate that Saten can solo the rest of the TAMNI cast because her charm is actually the most powerful thing in existence, x1000000 stronger than Aiwass.

BIB: fiammas arm isnt really a normal one :/
as for the other stuff: but they can heal things like injuries, and damage in inner organs are also no problem (OT1), maybe kamachi simply ignores it for the sake of a nerfed-acqua :/

There is a difference between closing up a clean cut and restoring body-wide internal damage to the point where the body is the same as it was before. Even if Acqua can recover from most the damage, his insides are probably shaped differently from before, much like a broken bone is not exactly the same as before even after it sets.

Also, is there any proof that Fiamma's right arm was special? He was using it to control the Holy Right, but the power of the Holy Right itself resides within his body and manifests as that bird claw hand thing. In fact, isn't it because his actual right arm wasn't special enough that he needed Touma's?

LevelSeven

2015-08-31, 09:17

No. In their cases, it is outright stated that Mikoto reduces the intensity of her current so that they won't be badly hurt. It's not exactly safe, but not deadly either. You noted this yourself.
im aware that she is holding back in her attack-strength :heh:
in kurokos case i agree, but in toumas case (in OT3) she (even if she held back) went with a not-so-safe lvl at touma, and no aftereffects happened ever :/
all im saying is that it is still closer to pokemon than someone might think :heh:

That's why it would take 100 or even 1000 bolts to beat Brunhild. I acknowledge that the damage each attack inflicts is low, but since unlike with the High Priest the damage is not 0, I affirm that enough attacks would defeat a Saint.
of course, but only if we include that the damage can built up and isnt "healed" before the next small damage follows, plus dodging wont even allow 100 of attacks to hit :eyespin: (even through i dont understand why mikoto didnt use a 360° lightning attack :/ would make the necessity to aim his attacks nonexsistend)...

Actually, a protracted battle would be far harder on Brunhild than on Mikoto. Here's yet another quote from OT4:
wasnt this the aftereffects of kaoris "god breaker" spell?
EDIT: The angel used that time to readjust its attacks and swung out three consecutive water wings attacks, but Kanzaki still managed to slice them with terrifying speed and accuracy. But at that moment, Power of God realised something.

Kanzaki Kaori was sweating as if she had a fever.

Even though the God Breaker ability existed, it didn't mean that anyone could use it. Besides the issue of talent, the more important point was the huge burden this spell exerted on the human body.

Actually, Kanzaki didn't really have a soft spot for Battojutsu.

It was just that if the spells she used couldn't decide the victor immediately, the huge burden would wreck her body.

The angel continued to attack mercilessly with the water wings as it stared at Kanzaki's face. Kanzaki was definitely moving far more than a normal human could, but not only was her face not turning red, it looked extremely pale as if it had been soaked in ice water. The hand that was holding onto the hilt of the nodachi was trembling.

The price of overworking had already started to wear Kanzaki's body down.
until now i dont remember a time where the LN showed saints having stamina issues :/ (of course if they overwork themselfes the backslash is far more bad than by normals)...

As you pointed out, a normal body wouldn't be able to handle supersonic movements. A Saint's spells also increase their physical endurance so that they can function even at those crazy speeds, but that is not a perfect solution.

In a very real sense, the greatest danger to a Saint in battle usually doesn't come from their enemies, but from their selves. Even if it is no more than a millionth of the power of Christ, that's still way more than a human body can handle. Even using it normally kills them bit by bit every second. Losing control even for a hundredth of a second would kill them instantly.
agree, but something like that wouldnt happen if they normally use their powers, even in kaori SS was the time with the "wanna-be"-saint girl who used some nordic magic for her superspeed/strength and the fight was about stamina which kaori easily won...

Leaving aside a double Saint like Acqua (and possibly Silvia, since apparently she gets extra power from being a Royal Maid), for a normal Saint, any use of their power that drags on for more than a few minutes becomes agonizing. That's why Kaori usually uses cars and other normal means of transportation for long distance travel. Their supersonic movements aren't just meant to overwhelm the opponent, but also to cut the time they need to spend fighting to the bare minimum. Most enemies won't even last a minute, so in 99.99% of cases, it isn't a problem.
i understand that they cant be superhuman the whole time... but it is more a issueof unnecassary usage of energy than a stamina-reason, in kaoriSS kanzaki immediatly used her saint-speed in order to reach the church faster :)

Fighting Mikoto is clearly not as taxing as fighting Misha, but even so, letting the battle drag on for longer than needed would have been pure idiocy on Brunhild's part. In a battle of attrition, Brunhild would wear down faster than Mikoto. Add the fact that Mikoto was also inflicting a little damage, no matter how small, and you have a recipie for disaster.
i dont agree with that, saints like brun and kaori showed that they can battle for a relatively long time before hitting their limits, and it isnt even because of their saint/valkyrie powers but more because of other reasons, like in kaori vs acqua where kaori wasnt worn down because of saint-power-overusage but because acqua overpowered her(and the others), and in brun vs kaori it was similar, the fight stopped with gungnirs destruction, i dont remember a part where it was mentioned of hinted that "prolonged battles wouldnt be good for saints" :/

Battles are fickle things.
agree...

Even if you spend 99% of the battle clearly on top, you can still lose at the very last second due to unexpected factors. Just look at Knight Leader vs Acqua, or Acqua himself vs Kaori, the Amakusa and Touma. Heck, Brunhild experienced this herself when she fought Kaori with the 70% Gungnir.

After losing one battle she thought she would win hands down, do you really believe she would risk making the same mistake again? Even Accelerator, who is brain damaged, learned not to underestimate level 0s after his defeat.
the circumstances are different, first of all, mikoto wasnt her target, brun even asked if she was the enemy (which was never directly answered), and than she was able to already nearly kill mikoto with saint-speed/strength and blade-attacks alone...
winning the fight with her wouldnt bring her anything, on the other hand we know that she doesnt kill mindlessly, she could/would kill without hestitation if there is a reason, which (after talking to her) didnt seem to exist since she answered with some touma-related stuff...

The text outright says she did not hold back. In other words, as I said, her performance did not drop.
good catch...

There are two reasons Othinus didn't die:

1) Brunhild was weary of Othinus' power, not aware that she had lost most of it. She might have attacked with less ferocity because of this.

2) Othinus is a Magic God, not a human. Even on the very brink of death from the Fairy Spell, we saw she still had the power to fire the Crossbow once, which could destroy the Earth several times over. She could take punishment a lot better than Touma.
mostlikely reason 1, her inner monologues support this, but this doesnt change what i meant, bloodlust will affect her performance, killing people remotetly related to her "reason for going berserk" is nothing new for her (kaoriSS), she would have killed touma and not even waited to think about othinus if her performance was unrelated to her bloodlust :/
When Kanzaki heard Brunhild say that, she lost it.

“Like hell we are!! What happened to Those who Know the Rune of the God’s Sword and the Necessarius recovery team that was taking care of them!?”

“Oh.” Brunhild answered Kanzaki’s question in a tone that showed she did not especially care. “So they were from the Anglican Church. Sorry about that. I thought they were their reinforcements, so I took care of them.”

“…!!”

But you can't know in advance when 100% is needed and when it is not, so why risk it? Again, Brunhild should know this because she learned it the hard way.
on the other hand, going overboard is foolish too and having no more energy for later is foolish too, exspecially if, like you said, thor was more than silvia was able to handle or if there was reinforcements around waiting for her to lose energy :/
either way, what i said is speculation, on the other hand brun never risked anything, she was never in a situation where "going with everything" was necassary and therefore it isnt far to assume that she didnt go with everything :eyespin:
i would agree with you that she was at 100% if mikotos and bruns roles had been reversed and brun was twice at deaths doors :/

It's more efficient to commit to one strategy or the other. Either kill, or hold back and stall. Doing things half-way just makes it less likely to achieve either goal. So to answer your question, no, both wouldn't work.
if they both reach the same conclusion and "holding her away" can do it with less effort without giving any "obvious" unwanted sideeffects than i doubt that she would have pressed for "killing"...

What she disliked was that she was acting no different from the cabal that tormented her. Killing itself is fine, but killing an opponent in a moment of weakness when they can't use their power is distasteful.

Mikoto was fully able to use her power and had no handicaps hindering her, so Brunhild wouldn't find the idea of killing her displeasing in the slightest. You asked me why Brunhild should kill someone who isn't necessarily an enemy. Let me flip that question around for you. Why should Brunhild go through so much trouble to spare someone who isn't even an ally?
BIB:? why trouble? it isnt like she went out of her way, she simply didnt go all out, in the first place their mission was to get Frau, that means that if birdway won the fight with touma, they would win and get her, it would actually be more OOC to go all out for someone so unrelated to the actual main-issuse and try to kill without any benefit in it...

Brunhild isn't Kaori. She isn't a kindly soul who honestly wishes for the salvation of every person on the planet. She cares for the wellbeing of one person and one alone, and she was perfectly willing to complete Gungnir and devastate the world to protect him. Everyone else can go to hell for all she cares. If Mikoto, her sisters, her family and friends all died in a fire, Brunhild wouldn't shed a single tear.
but she wouldnt throw them into the fire either, like you said, the boy is her main objective, and mikoto was someone who played on a side that opposed her, after confirming that she was a enemy (more or less) they fought, and twice she nearly killed mikoto, than she asked why she does it and touma-stuff came as answer, than she wanted to attack and mikoto reacted with a railgun(but we didnt see what happened on-screen)...

Your argument is flawed. You see, Brunhild already has a few, major, known and exploitable weaknesses: she's a Saint and a Valkyrie. Stigmata provide part of Christ's power, but they also provide weaknesses to the symbols of his death, which are exploited by spells like the Saint Destroyer. I assume Valkyries have similar weaknesses. Furthermore, her two powers conflict with each other, sometimes leaving her with no power at all.
they know some weaknesses, but why giving others more way to counter if she had the chance to conceal them?

Anyone trying to attack Brunhild by analyzing her would attack these weaknesses. She loses nothing by showing all her cards, because the enemy already knows what cards she has.
BIB: not really, different than espers, magicians can learn more spells in order to make up for the weaknesses of other things, in bruns case she surely has most of her weaknesses covered up, and giving others more ways to counter would give her more things to cover up :/

I was thinking more along the lines of the battle with Frenda, but there's more than that. The thing is, between TAMNI, Railgun and all the other spin-offs, Misaka has been attacked with all kinds of firearms and explosives, not to mention a wide range of futuristic weapons and supernatural powers. If she couldn't react to supersonic attacks, she would have died a million times over already.
didnt they react before the explosions happened?
like toua+othinus who escaped a water-bomb via hiding but before it exploded (or the times where he reacted to superfast attacks despied not being superfast himself :) )

By that logic, Saints are mostly human, other than their Stigmata. They certainly aren't monsters like Kakine or Magic Gods, who are only human in shape, but filled with entirely different substance.
agree...

Then how do you explain that they can chose how to do their calculations? Also, on a side note, I despise Mahouka.
i know, i only meant that i think that subconscious-calculations are better to accept, exspecially in close-combats with quick thinking :/
PS: i dont understand why most people hate the story, yeah, the MC is OP but the LN shows him better than the anime, at least he can joke (even if the jokes are as un-funny as in toaru :/ ))

I'm not arguing that Mikoto is stronger than Brunhild, or that she would have won. I'm arguing that Brunhild used 100% of her power against Mikoto and, by extension, claim that Mikoto's power level isn't that much lower than a Saint's. Don't muddle the issue at hand.
this was what i want to say too...
BIB: sorry :eyespin:

Not really. She mostly used Yuisen to cut Misha's wings and only used her wires to slow the speed of the wings enough so she wouldn't be overwhelmed by them.

Besides, each magician has their own combat style. Kaori built her style around her sword and the seven wires attached to it and the balance of spells she uses is built so that she fights at her best in that way. Clearly Brunhild decided that her ideal fighting style is one where she doesn't need spells other than those in her body and blade.
we dont really know how strong her 100% is, afterall, aside from the fight with kaori where she had gungnir she didnt have a reason to go all out (but, fighting with gungnir wasnt her normal fighting style), therefore we dont know if she has other tricks, on the other hand it is sure for mikoto that she was at her wits end exspecially after using railgun (plus nearly dying twice) :)

Hard, but still easier than before. Say Brunhild dropped her physical boosts by half. Then she'd be hit twice as often for twice the damage, ending up taking four times the wounds.
fights arent that easy...
her speed would still exceed humans perception easily, and mikotos situation wouldnt be better, afterall she always managed to narrowly escape the attack, nothing says that she would be better if brun is slower, afterall mikoto can only keep up with her speed via "following her footsteps"(which mean that the speed arent the reason for her reaction, 10% slower people would still be able to corner her the same way), even if the speed is slower the result (mikotos reaction to the attacks) could very well be the same...

Plus, it's not just a matter of speed. Mikoto was affecting Brunhild's sword with magnetism, which cannot be dodged as it travels at the speed of light. If her strength dropped below Mikoto's magnetic field, she wouldn't be able to attack her with her main weapon at all.
but the speed is dropped not strength :)

None of the runes she was shown to be able to use were usable in her battle against Mikoto. I won't accept the idea that Brunhild has attack runes she hasn't shown yet without good reason. If we go down the path of accepting unproven speculation, eventually we'll reach the point where we can speculate that Saten can solo the rest of the TAMNI cast because her charm is actually the most powerful thing in existence, x1000000 stronger than Aiwass.
agree, after reading her rune-feats she doesnt seem to have instant-spells (even through the lung-rune-feat seems pretty fast) :D

There is a difference between closing up a clean cut and restoring body-wide internal damage to the point where the body is the same as it was before. Even if Acqua can recover from most the damage, his insides are probably shaped differently from before, much like a broken bone is not exactly the same as before even after it sets.
but this is magic, it doesnt seem like a impossible feat to restore a body to its former "shape" exspecially since acqua is one of the super-rare 20 saints :/

Also, is there any proof that Fiamma's right arm was special? He was using it to control the Holy Right, but the power of the Holy Right itself resides within his body and manifests as that bird claw hand thing. In fact, isn't it because his actual right arm wasn't special enough that he needed Touma's?
if his right hand was the controller of the HR i would see it as special, afterall if only a right hand is needed than shouldnt a artifical one do the same? (even on out of wood should be doing the trick :/)
BIB: as far as i know his HR needed IB in order to stabilize/become perfect or so...

Doom_Paperclip

2015-09-01, 05:29

im aware that she is holding back in her attack-strength :heh:
in kurokos case i agree, but in toumas case (in OT3) she (even if she held back) went with a not-so-safe lvl at touma, and no aftereffects happened ever :/
all im saying is that it is still closer to pokemon than someone might think :heh:
Touma takes huge punishment all the time. You can't really use him for a comparison. Plus, he gets treated by Heaven Canceller, the best doctor in the world. He might be keeping Touma from suffering the aftereffects of his stunts as he normally would.

of course, but only if we include that the damage can built up and isnt "healed" before the next small damage follows, plus dodging wont even allow 100 of attacks to hit :eyespin: (even through i dont understand why mikoto didnt use a 360° lightning attack :/ would make the necessity to aim his attacks nonexsistend)...
Only, we've shown she can't "heal" electric damage with blood control. I'd also like to point out we haven't seen Brunhild dodge a single one of Mikoto's attacks during the parts of the battle that were written out in NT6. She tanked the lightning, sliced apart the concrete, batted away the iron sand and forced past the magnetism, but she didn't dodge any of them. We don't know what she did to defeat the railgun as the battle cut off at that point.

I said this earlier, but magnetism and lightning move very, very fast. As in, the relative difference in speed of lightning (150000 m/s at the very slowest) compared to a Saint (350 m/s or more) is even greater than the difference in speed between a Saint and a normal person (6.5 m/s on average). Magnetism is faster still, although admittedly the same cannot be said of the objects manipulated through magnetism. If you're basing your belief that Brunhild can easily dodge Mikoto's attacks on her supersonic speed, then your argument doesn't stand.

You could argue that Mikoto would have problems aiming at Brunhild, but you'd have to prove this. Show me a single instance where Mikoto has had trouble aiming at Brunhild due to her speed.

wasnt this the aftereffects of kaoris "god breaker" spell?
EDIT:
until now i dont remember a time where the LN showed saints having stamina issues :/ (of course if they overwork themselfes the backslash is far more bad than by normals)...
I assume that god breaker is the name of the physical enhancement magic Kaori uses to up her stats. It just doesn't get mentioned again after OT4, but supposedly she uses it every time she does Saint stuff. You can argue against this, but if you do, be ready for the next post to get several paragraphs longer.

agree, but something like that wouldnt happen if they normally use their powers, even in kaori SS was the time with the "wanna-be"-saint girl who used some nordic magic for her superspeed/strength and the fight was about stamina which kaori easily won...
Nope:

“This is not merely an issue of speed,” Kanzaki said quietly as she wielded her seven wires a bit away. “You will realize soon that this is also an issue of accuracy.”

(…?)

Was she saying small mistakes would eventually show up in a protracted battle?

However, that was not it.

An exceedingly simple problem arose just as Kanzaki had predicted.

It was an issue of size.

The triangles of leather constructing Víðarr’s Shoe had only been a few centimeters long. Kanzaki was slicing through them with her wires and the magician was returning them to a triangular shape. Two things happened as a result of this.

First, the number increased which increased the magician’s strength.

Second, the size of the triangles of leather got smaller and smaller.

Even the original triangles that were a few centimeters across required a good bit of skill to slice through accurately from a distance. Once the size had gone down to half or even a quarter of that and they were only a few millimeters across, the success rate dropped.

It was similar to firing a gun at a target.

Even at the same distance, one’s accuracy would fall the smaller the target became. Once the target was only a few millimeters across, it was like firing through the eye of a needle.

And…

If the magician lost, she would lose her strength and be defeated by Kanzaki.

“Kh…!!”

The magician felt like her mental vision suddenly narrowed. It was like a game of chicken heading straight for the edge of a cliff. She had to slam on the brakes because she was getting to the point where she was not sure if she could handle it, but her opponent continued heading on and on, so she had no choice but to go on herself.

Meanwhile, their battle had become an even more delicate one where both speed and accuracy had to be used in unison. As the battle escalated from a few millimeters, to a single millimeter, and then to the realm even smaller than that, the magician was made aware of something about her own characteristics.

It was true that her strength increased as the number of triangles increased.

However, an increase in strength was not necessarily a good thing.

It was the same as how a light jab was easier to hit with than a powerful straight.

The more her strength increased…

…the harder it became to aim carefully!?

(No…!!)

In all honesty, the magician wanted to quit.

Her head was warning her that she could not keep up if things advanced any further.

But Kanzaki Kaori was still accurately using her wires to slice the leather further and further and further and further as if she were a piece of accurate machinery. The spiritual items were smaller than a millimeter putting them at about the size of a grain of sand, but she was still swiftly and surely slicing them.

It was not just an issue of superhuman strength and speed.

One also needed the precision to accurately wield one’s power in that realm. Saints were said to have such rare talent because they had the precise control needed to fully wield their power.

(So this is…)

The magician gritted her teeth and felt a sensation escape her.

She had sliced through air.

That showed that she could no longer keep up with the accuracy needed at that scale.

And…

Kanzaki Kaori was still swinging her wires.

The triangles that were smaller than a millimeter were sliced to pieces in an instant.

(So this is a Saint…!)

The magician’s speed suddenly dropped.

She could feel the assistance from Víðarr’s Shoe quickly leaving her.

Kanzaki charged straight for the magician.

With a roar, the magician was blown away by a blow from Kanzaki’s scabbard.
The battle was decided by accuracy, not stamina.

i understand that they cant be superhuman the whole time... but it is more a issueof unnecassary usage of energy than a stamina-reason, in kaoriSS kanzaki immediatly used her saint-speed in order to reach the church faster :)
At supersonic speeds, she can travel over 20km in less than a minute. A "short" distance like that wouldn't be enough to put strain on her. Now, have her run from one end of Europe to the other and I bet she would be a wreck by the end of the.

i dont agree with that, saints like brun and kaori showed that they can battle for a relatively long time before hitting their limits, and it isnt even because of their saint/valkyrie powers but more because of other reasons, like in kaori vs acqua where kaori wasnt worn down because of saint-power-overusage but because acqua overpowered her(and the others), and in brun vs kaori it was similar, the fight stopped with gungnirs destruction, i dont remember a part where it was mentioned of hinted that "prolonged battles wouldnt be good for saints" :/
And where was this shown? I'd like to point out that battles in TAMNI generally aren't timed. Nobody is standing there with a stopwatch, measuring the time each battle took and even if there was such a person, they aren't sharing their data with us.

Saints move at supersonic speeds. Even if they clash 10000 times, it might take no more than a few minutes. So tell me, what proof do you have that any of the battles you mentioned lasted a long amount of time?

the circumstances are different, first of all, mikoto wasnt her target, brun even asked if she was the enemy (which was never directly answered), and than she was able to already nearly kill mikoto with saint-speed/strength and blade-attacks alone...
winning the fight with her wouldnt bring her anything, on the other hand we know that she doesnt kill mindlessly, she could/would kill without hestitation if there is a reason, which (after talking to her) didnt seem to exist since she answered with some touma-related stuff...
Lets try to solve this using simple math:

x = a/b

y = -a/c

Where "x" is how much Brunhild gains by letting Mikoto live, "y" is how much Brunhild gains by killing Mikoto, "a" is the value of Mikoto's life to Brunhild, "b" is the amount of effort needed to spare Mikoto and "c" is the amount of effort needed to kill Mikoto.

Mikoto is getting in Brunhild's way. Even if Mikoto's chances of beating Brunhild are low, she is definitely a harmful existence to Brunhild, therefore "a" is negative. Any action, no matter how easy, requires some effort, so "b" and "c" are positive. As such, we can tell that "x" is negative and "y" is positive, therefore y > x. It is simply better for Brunhild to kill Mikoto than to let her live.

Brunhild doesn't kill mindlessly? Perhaps, but she is capable of killing without hesitation even so. It's easy to forget because TAMNI has taught us to empathize even with villains, but Brunhild is not a good person. The creation of Gungnir could have made every magician in the world explode and destroyed the ecosystem. The potential deaths could have numbered in the billions, yet Brunhild wasn't troubled by this thought in the slightest. It's not just that she thought the boy's life was more important than those of billions, she never attached any value to lives other than his in the first place. Someone like you or me would hesitate to kill even a random stranger we don't care about because we've been taught that human life has inherent value, but Brunhild does not share that belief.

mostlikely reason 1, her inner monologues support this, but this doesnt change what i meant, bloodlust will affect her performance, killing people remotetly related to her "reason for going berserk" is nothing new for her (kaoriSS), she would have killed touma and not even waited to think about othinus if her performance was unrelated to her bloodlust :/
That has nothing to do with performance. Also, it makes no sense. Othinus was the threat, not Touma.

on the other hand, going overboard is foolish too and having no more energy for later is foolish too, exspecially if, like you said, thor was more than silvia was able to handle or if there was reinforcements around waiting for her to lose energy :/

[...]

if they both reach the same conclusion and "holding her away" can do it with less effort without giving any "obvious" unwanted sideeffects than i doubt that she would have pressed for "killing"...
Keeping Mikoto alive takes longer than killing her. Even if it took more energy in the short term to pull off a powerful attack to kill Mikoto, it would take more in the long run to keep making small attacks to hold her off. It's like how you expend more energy per second sprinting as compared to running a marathon, but running a marathon takes more energy overall.

Besides, say that Thor overwhelmed Silvia and Brunhild were forced to help her. If Brunhild killed Mikoto, she would only need to fight one enemy, but with Mikoto still alive, she would need to fight two. No matter how you spin it, killing as fast as possible seems to be the best option.

either way, what i said is speculation, on the other hand brun never risked anything, she was never in a situation where "going with everything" was necassary and therefore it isnt far to assume that she didnt go with everything :eyespin:
i would agree with you that she was at 100% if mikotos and bruns roles had been reversed and brun was twice at deaths doors :/
When two speculations face off, the one with more evidence is better. I fully intend that better speculation to be mine.

BIB:? why trouble? it isnt like she went out of her way, she simply didnt go all out, in the first place their mission was to get Frau, that means that if birdway won the fight with touma, they would win and get her, it would actually be more OOC to go all out for someone so unrelated to the actual main-issuse and try to kill without any benefit in it...
It's stupid to plan for the best case scenario. If you do and then things don't go as planned, you're screwed. Everyone knows that you prepare for the worst, so that when things go wrong, you can still make the best of it.

but she wouldnt throw them into the fire either, like you said, the boy is her main objective, and mikoto was someone who played on a side that opposed her, after confirming that she was a enemy (more or less) they fought, and twice she nearly killed mikoto, than she asked why she does it and touma-stuff came as answer, than she wanted to attack and mikoto reacted with a railgun(but we didnt see what happened on-screen)...
She would if they happened to stand between her and the boy. Again, she feels nothing about killing others. You can only argue this way because you are influenced by your own belief in the sanctity of human life, but after being chased and persecuted for years, Brunhild has lost that. Crushing a human would weigh no more on her conscience than crushing an insect.

Put yourself in Brunhild's shoes. Forget your own life and sense of values and imagine taking on her life and values. You care about only one person in the world. The best way to protect them is to get Kreutune. It's not the only way, but it raises the odds of success. Someone stands in your way. She means nothing to you and you wouldn't feel bad if you killed her. In fact, keeping her alive means taking several painful shocks and enduring her attacks for a long while. What possible reason can you find it in yourself to let her live?

they know some weaknesses, but why giving others more way to counter if she had the chance to conceal them?

BIB: not really, different than espers, magicians can learn more spells in order to make up for the weaknesses of other things, in bruns case she surely has most of her weaknesses covered up, and giving others more ways to counter would give her more things to cover up :/
Exploiting her moments of powerlessness or neutralizing her Saint/Valkyrie powers would screw her over 100%. All her spells rely on her special powers. Without them, she has nothing. She could have 1000 or 1000000 secret spells, it would make no difference if she couldn't cast them. As such, it makes no sense to counter one measly spell when you can take out all of them in one go.

didnt they react before the explosions happened?
like toua+othinus who escaped a water-bomb via hiding but before it exploded (or the times where he reacted to superfast attacks despied not being superfast himself :) )
Can you prove that Mikoto reacted before the attacks, and even if you can prove that, what difference does it make? If she can react to Brunhild's attacks at all then it makes no difference as to the result.

i know, i only meant that i think that subconscious-calculations are better to accept, exspecially in close-combats with quick thinking :/
PS: i dont understand why most people hate the story, yeah, the MC is OP but the LN shows him better than the anime, at least he can joke (even if the jokes are as un-funny as in toaru :/ ))
Normal people calculate consciously. Although mathematics in general involve the brain as a whole, complex mathematical reasoning requires the frontal lobe, which is under the domain of the conscious mind. To me, it is subconscious calculations that make no sense.

I'll PM you later regards my view on Mahouka.

this was what i want to say too...
Could have fooled me. It seems to me like you're arguing that Brunhild was fighting at less than 100% and, by extension, that Mikoto is light years away from Saint level.

we dont really know how strong her 100% is, afterall, aside from the fight with kaori where she had gungnir she didnt have a reason to go all out (but, fighting with gungnir wasnt her normal fighting style), therefore we dont know if she has other tricks, on the other hand it is sure for mikoto that she was at her wits end exspecially after using railgun (plus nearly dying twice) :)

[...]

agree, after reading her rune-feats she doesnt seem to have instant-spells (even through the lung-rune-feat seems pretty fast) :D
She fought with Kaori briefly before getting Gungnir and concluded she was at a disadvantage. She had no reason to hold back tricks there, since she was going to get Gungnir anyway, which would have made all her other powers pale in comparison.

You also forget the fight vs the artificial Valkyries in NT4. She had every reason to use every trick at her disposal there, yet she only used strength, speed and weaponry. It was this reason that forced you to acknowledge she has no AOE attacks. I further extend the argument to claim that she has no extra combat tricks at all, an argument further reinforced by your admission that she has no combat rune attacks (she only used inscribed the lung runes after her enemies were already down).

fights arent that easy...
her speed would still exceed humans perception easily, and mikotos situation wouldnt be better, afterall she always managed to narrowly escape the attack, nothing says that she would be better if brun is slower, afterall mikoto can only keep up with her speed via "following her footsteps"(which mean that the speed arent the reason for her reaction, 10% slower people would still be able to corner her the same way), even if the speed is slower the result (mikotos reaction to the attacks) could very well be the same...
I'll acknowledge this point.

but the speed is dropped not strength :)
You need strength to move fast. Speed is supported by strength. Loss of speed indicates a loss of strength.

but this is magic, it doesnt seem like a impossible feat to restore a body to its former "shape" exspecially since acqua is one of the super-rare 20 saints :/
If magic could manipulate the human body to the extent of healing Acqua, changing the shape of his insides back into the right configuration, then magic should also be able to, by extension, take a normal person and twist their insides to give them Stigmata. Clearly this assumption is false. Gremlin did make artificial Valkyries, but they were far, far inferior to the real thing.

Magic has limits In the NorseSS, Kaori points out that not even a Saint can bring back someone whose body or mind have been destroyed. TAMNI has no convenient Phoenix Downs. Once an injury goes past a certain point, only a Magic God can fix it with magic.

if his right hand was the controller of the HR i would see it as special, afterall if only a right hand is needed than shouldnt a artifical one do the same? (even on out of wood should be doing the trick :/)
BIB: as far as i know his HR needed IB in order to stabilize/become perfect or so...

But artificial limbs are part of the Science Side. If Fiamma could get an artificial limb, he would have done so, whether or not it would restore his Holy Right, because it's more convenient than having only one arm. He doesn't have an artificial arm, which means he couldn't get one.

LevelSeven

2015-09-01, 07:42

now you know how Othinus felt in NT9]
but i hadnt my time as uberpowerful-superbeing :upset: :heh:

Touma takes huge punishment all the time. You can't really use him for a comparison. Plus, he gets treated by Heaven Canceller, the best doctor in the world. He might be keeping Touma from suffering the aftereffects of his stunts as he normally would.
BIB: yeah, but he is the best/only example i have :/ the others are one-shot thugs who are gone after being hit :( actually, repeated low-lvl exposure agaisnt lightning can still mess up your body in some "not-really-pretty" ways, but this is mostly played for laughs :eyespin:

Only, we've shown she can't "heal" electric damage with blood control. I'd also like to point out we haven't seen Brunhild dodge a single one of Mikoto's attacks during the parts of the battle that were written out in NT6. She tanked the lightning, sliced apart the concrete, batted away the iron sand and forced past the magnetism, but she didn't dodge any of them. We don't know what she did to defeat the railgun as the battle cut off at that point.
she wasnt really damaged in the first place :/
It was a giant mass of reinforced concrete. It flew straight for Brunhild to perform a deadly body blow.

Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage in an instant and used her claymore and her physical strength to stop that mass that could likely destroy a building wall.

A struggle began like two opponents with their swords locked together.
it paralyzed her a bit but this is it... i admit, i dont really understand how someone can force themselfes out of this,
afterall it isnt like a magic-seal that prevents her movements which only needs to be broken with enough strength :eyespin: but this mostlikely falls under "suspension of disbelief" :/

I said this earlier, but magnetism and lightning move very, very fast. As in, the relative difference in speed of lightning (150000 m/s at the very slowest) compared to a Saint (350 m/s or more) is even greater than the difference in speed between a Saint and a normal person (6.5 m/s on average). Magnetism is faster still, although admittedly the same cannot be said of the objects manipulated through magnetism. If you're basing your belief that Brunhild can easily dodge Mikoto's attacks on her supersonic speed, then your argument doesn't stand.
yeah, "dodge" was mostlikely the wrong term, what i meant with dodge was that "she doesnt get damage from her attacks", a real "evading" of the attack wasnt shown...

You could argue that Mikoto would have problems aiming at Brunhild, but you'd have to prove this. Show me a single instance where Mikoto has had trouble aiming at Brunhild due to her speed.
As if it was stuck in a wall and she was pulling it out, Brunhild ignored the great magnetic power and used her tremendous arm strength to forcibly swing the giant sword horizontally.

But…

“One second…is enough!!”

She had taken aim.

Bluish-white sparks flew from Mikoto’s bangs.

With the roar of the air bursting, the lightning spear directly struck the steel claymore. Not even Brunhild was able to ignore that. The high voltage current passed from the blade to her wrists and then rushed throughout her entire body.

Meanwhile, Mikoto swung her left hand. It was the same motion as that used in a sidearm throw in baseball.

Something large moved as if following her palm.

It was a giant mass of reinforced concrete. It flew straight for Brunhild to perform a deadly body blow.
her attacks only had a chance to hit after brun was pinned down...
another example: At the same time, Mikoto swung the iron sand sword with all her might before the claymore could pick up speed.

I assume that god breaker is the name of the physical enhancement magic Kaori uses to up her stats. It just doesn't get mentioned again after OT4, but supposedly she uses it every time she does Saint stuff. You can argue against this, but if you do, be ready for the next post to get several paragraphs longer.
i dont want long paragraphs, but the "breaker of god" doesnt show up everytime she does saint-stuff, it is a optional spell in order to mostlikely fight angels(and aside from OT4 she never fought divine beings again)...
If Christian spells wouldn't work, she'd use Buddhist spells.

If Buddhist spells wouldn't work, she'd use Shinto spells.

If Shinto spells wouldn't work, she'd use Christian spells.

The Amakusa could use other sorts of spells to make up for the religions' weaknesses. So the fact that the Christians couldn't beat angels didn't exist for Kanzaki.

Power of God looked frozen. Three water wings came swinging over the left and right.

But the water wings were still easily sliced by Kanzaki's nodachi flash.

[...]

But for Kanzaki, she didn't need any preparations. She just needed to use her fingers to lightly stroke the hilt of the nodachi at her waist. Using the unique breathing to refine the magic energy within her, she could turn herself into the Breaker of God.

Silence.

After a tenth of a second of silence that an ordinary human couldn't feel.

The Power of God and the Breaker of God started their duel with their lives on their line.

BOOM! A roar could be heard.

The archangel sent a fifty-metre-long water wing sliding down from above, and it was sliced in half by Kanzaki, who was 10m in front of it.

But the Power of God didn't mind. No matter how many water wings were cut, it could repair them. This time, the water wing swung over from the left, trying to use the time Kanzaki was undefended while she was sheathing her nodachi.

Nope:

The battle was decided by accuracy, not stamina.
yeah, seems like it :)
but this still doesnt mean that saints get tired superfast :/

At supersonic speeds, she can travel over 20km in less than a minute. A "short" distance like that wouldn't be enough to put strain on her. Now, have her run from one end of Europe to the other and I bet she would be a wreck by the end of the.
everyone has limits (aside from cheat-chars like kakines immortal-DM-body)...
kanzaki surely too, but who wouldnt be exhausted after this? :heh:

And where was this shown? I'd like to point out that battles in TAMNI generally aren't timed. Nobody is standing there with a stopwatch, measuring the time each battle took and even if there was such a person, they aren't sharing their data with us.

Saints move at supersonic speeds. Even if they clash 10000 times, it might take no more than a few minutes. So tell me, what proof do you have that any of the battles you mentioned lasted a long amount of time?
the fight with kaori vs acqua,
it began after kaori showed up, they fought, touma woke up, had his inner thoughts, started to go to the battlefield, itsuwa woke up from her unconsciousness, thought about touma and about kaori, and toumas talk with mikoto and also his arrivel at the fighting scene...
all of this surely took at least 5 or 10 minutes :/ and kaori was exhausted because she was pushed to her limits, brun wouldnt need such speed while fighting mikoto :/

Lets try to solve this using simple math:

x = a/b

y = -a/c

Where "x" is how much Brunhild gains by letting Mikoto live, "y" is how much Brunhild gains by killing Mikoto, "a" is the value of Mikoto's life to Brunhild, "b" is the amount of effort needed to spare Mikoto and "c" is the amount of effort needed to kill Mikoto.

Mikoto is getting in Brunhild's way. Even if Mikoto's chances of beating Brunhild are low, she is definitely a harmful existence to Brunhild, therefore "a" is negative. Any action, no matter how easy, requires some effort, so "b" and "c" are positive. As such, we can tell that "x" is negative and "y" is positive, therefore y > x. It is simply better for Brunhild to kill Mikoto than to let her live.
the bolded part is where you make a mistake, the amount of "effort" needs to be included too, plus, why does mikotos life gets negative if bruns "gains" are calculated, the value of her life has the same amount, the "gain" after killing her or lettign her live shouldnt affect this...

therefore: x=a/b, y=a/c, the only variable is "b" and "c", and i think that killing her takes more effort than keeping her busy... therefore: b<c, which means x>y :eyespin: :D

Brunhild doesn't kill mindlessly? Perhaps, but she is capable of killing without hesitation even so. It's easy to forget because TAMNI has taught us to empathize even with villains, but Brunhild is not a good person. The creation of Gungnir could have made every magician in the world explode and destroyed the ecosystem. The potential deaths could have numbered in the billions, yet Brunhild wasn't troubled by this thought in the slightest. It's not just that she thought the boy's life was more important than those of billions, she never attached any value to lives other than his in the first place. Someone like you or me would hesitate to kill even a random stranger we don't care about because we've been taught that human life has inherent value, but Brunhild does not share that belief.
BIB: in such cases most people simply look at the things they gain from killing the "opponent", if it isnt worth it they wouldnt give it their all, and i showed above that it wouldnt be worth going after her life if killing takes more effort than "not killing" :eyespin:

That has nothing to do with performance. Also, it makes no sense. Othinus was the threat, not Touma.
what i tried to show was that her performance gets altered by her the existence of bloodlust or not, if she had bloodlust towards othinus like silvia than she would have tortured touma too, since she didnt have a personal grudge she didnt do it...

Keeping Mikoto alive takes longer than killing her. Even if it took more energy in the short term to pull off a powerful attack to kill Mikoto, it would take more in the long run to keep making small attacks to hold her off. It's like how you expend more energy per second sprinting as compared to running a marathon, but running a marathon takes more energy overall.
this depends on the duration of the prolonged battle and the energy-expense of the "one-shot"-kill-attack...

the thing is, i never tried to say that brun would gain a easy win (if it looked like that, sorry), i simply dont think that she went with everything she had, the way the fight happened, her emotionless behavior and also that she didnt have a real reason to actively go after mikotos life are indicators that she didnt go all out, on the other hand mikoto actually used everything she was able to do :/

im sure, if she had some one-shot-kill she would have used it :eyespin:

Besides, say that Thor overwhelmed Silvia and Brunhild were forced to help her. If Brunhild killed Mikoto, she would only need to fight one enemy, but with Mikoto still alive, she would need to fight two. No matter how you spin it, killing as fast as possible seems to be the best option.
BIB: and if that doesnt work than "keeping her away from the "decisive" fight with the least amount of effort possible" sounds like the next best option, and in my eyes the way the fight was written looks like that :)

When two speculations face off, the one with more evidence is better. I fully intend that better speculation to be mine.
than agree to disagree :/

It's stupid to plan for the best case scenario. If you do and then things don't go as planned, you're screwed. Everyone knows that you prepare for the worst, so that when things go wrong, you can still make the best of it.
agree, but it doesnt really mean that people would follow it :eyespin: :heh:

She would if they happened to stand between her and the boy. Again, she feels nothing about killing others. You can only argue this way because you are influenced by your own belief in the sanctity of human life, but after being chased and persecuted for years, Brunhild has lost that. Crushing a human would weigh no more on her conscience than crushing an insect.

Put yourself in Brunhild's shoes. Forget your own life and sense of values and imagine taking on her life and values. You care about only one person in the world. The best way to protect them is to get Kreutune. It's not the only way, but it raises the odds of success. Someone stands in your way. She means nothing to you and you wouldn't feel bad if you killed her. In fact, keeping her alive means taking several painful shocks and enduring her attacks for a long while. What possible reason can you find it in yourself to let her live?
i agree, but the boy wasnt directly connected...

Exploiting her moments of powerlessness or neutralizing her Saint/Valkyrie powers would screw her over 100%. All her spells rely on her special powers. Without them, she has nothing. She could have 1000 or 1000000 secret spells, it would make no difference if she couldn't cast them. As such, it makes no sense to counter one measly spell when you can take out all of them in one go.
not everyone can do this, if it was so easy nobody would fear saints :/
Can you prove that Mikoto reacted before the attacks, and even if you can prove that, what difference does it make? If she can react to Brunhild's attacks at all then it makes no difference as to the result.
the outcome is the same but the way is also important, because it means that if she cant react before the action is taken (or with some sort of trick like the iron-sand-footprints) than she is screwed :eyespin:

Normal people calculate consciously. Although mathematics in general involve the brain as a whole, complex mathematical reasoning requires the frontal lobe, which is under the domain of the conscious mind. To me, it is subconscious calculations that make no sense.
with a different example: do you calculate the way how a ball (in football) will be shot into the goal from you feet? i dont, it is mostly subconscious, and stuff like kakines abilitys cant even be calculated, i mean, who could tell him what h should calculate in order to create a mass that never existed before? :eyespin:

I'll PM you later regards my view on Mahouka.
cool :cool:

Could have fooled me. It seems to me like you're arguing that Brunhild was fighting at less than 100% and, by extension, that Mikoto is light years away from Saint level.
yes and no, im trying to say that brun didnt go with 100%, im not saying that mikoto is light years away...

She fought with Kaori briefly before getting Gungnir and concluded she was at a disadvantage. She had no reason to hold back tricks there, since she was going to get Gungnir anyway, which would have made all her other powers pale in comparison.
but kaori was never her objective, no reason to go all out:
“Are you going to flee?”

“Don’t be mistaken. My objective is not you. I only made contact because I wanted to know who Those who Know the Rune of the God’s Sword’s reinforcements were…but this does not seem to be an issue. I can still continue my plan.”

“Your plan? Why are you attacking Norse cabals?”

You also forget the fight vs the artificial Valkyries in NT4. She had every reason to use every trick at her disposal there, yet she only used strength, speed and weaponry. It was this reason that forced you to acknowledge she has no AOE attacks. I further extend the argument to claim that she has no extra combat tricks at all, an argument further reinforced by your admission that she has no combat rune attacks (she only used inscribed the lung runes after her enemies were already down).
In fact, she had no guarantee that she would survive.

She might have been able to win in a pure fight to the death, but the artificial Valkyries knew Brunhild’s weakness. If attacks came from over 10 different directions at once while she had to protect that boy, the difficulty grew considerably.

And Brunhild would unhesitatingly choose the boy if only one of them could survive.

That was why it was possible that she would lose to an opponent she should be able to defeat.

When Brunhild 'drew' her sword, the artificial Valkyries also drew their swords in unison.

That was when something slammed through the hospital corridor with the force of a dump truck.

A different group of artificial Valkyries that had been waiting outside had been blown away and sent rolling along the floor.

Someone had thrown them with incredible strength.
maybe i was to fast :p because we cant say she doesnt have AoE spells based on this "fight",
first: she was close to that boy, a AoE spell could very well become dangerous for him too, plus, she needed to protect him while fighting 10 of them at once...
and second: before the fight even began silvia walked into the room :/
the fight happened off-screen but the result seemed to have been a easy win for the 3 monsters :eyespin:

You need strength to move fast. Speed is supported by strength. Loss of speed indicates a loss of strength.
true...

If magic could manipulate the human body to the extent of healing Acqua, changing the shape of his insides back into the right configuration, then magic should also be able to, by extension, take a normal person and twist their insides to give them Stigmata. Clearly this assumption is false. Gremlin did make artificial Valkyries, but they were far, far inferior to the real thing.
that means that it is possible, and saints in acquas case it isnt "creation" but "restoration" it shouldnt make him inferior, afterall it basically sets his body back to his natural state instead of twisting it :)

Magic has limits In the NorseSS, Kaori points out that not even a Saint can bring back someone whose body or mind have been destroyed. TAMNI has no convenient Phoenix Downs. Once an injury goes past a certain point, only a Magic God can fix it with magic.
sometimes not even they can do it XD (like: after being hit by the fairy spell :heh:)

But artificial limbs are part of the Science Side. If Fiamma could get an artificial limb, he would have done so, whether or not it would restore his Holy Right, because it's more convenient than having only one arm. He doesn't have an artificial arm, which means he couldn't get one.
heaven cancellar wouldnt really care about science/magic :cool: but i know what you mean, still, it doesnt really make that much sense, there are surely many legends where lost body parts growed/returned back to the owner :/

Doom_Paperclip

2015-09-01, 11:33

BIB: yeah, but he is the best/only example i have :/ the others are one-shot thugs who are gone after being hit :( actually, repeated low-lvl exposure agaisnt lightning can still mess up your body in some "not-really-pretty" ways, but this is mostly played for laughs :eyespin:
So you concede you don't really have much to make an argument on. You didn't have anything to say about my comment on Heaven Canceller either.

she wasnt really damaged in the first place :/
it paralyzed her a bit but this is it... i admit, i dont really understand how someone can force themselfes out of this,
afterall it isnt like a magic-seal that prevents her movements which only needs to be broken with enough strength :eyespin: but this mostlikely falls under "suspension of disbelief" :/
Recovery doesn't necessarily imply healing. If someone hits you in the stomach it can knock the wind out of you, causing you to stop breathing temporarily. You can recover and start breathing again, yet still have a bruise to show for it. In this case, she just took back control of her nerves and pushed past the damage so that she wouldn't be hit by the concrete, but she didn't heal, otherwise the word "forcibly" wouldn't have been used.

her attacks only had a chance to hit after brun was pinned down...
another example:

[...]

the outcome is the same but the way is also important, because it means that if she cant react before the action is taken (or with some sort of trick like the iron-sand-footprints) than she is screwed :eyespin:
Listen, in battles, results are everything. There is no cosmic referee looking down on battles who will descend from the heavens to say "Wait Mikoto, you cheated! You only hit because you pinned Brunhild down! Yellow card, and Brunhild gets a penalty shot!". What matters is that Mikoto managed to hit and Brunhild did not. Arguing about Mikoto's senses not keeping up, or only hitting when she pins Brunhild down or dodging before the attacks start ect... that's all a waste of time, both yours and mine.

You say that it's a problem because if Mikoto can't keep her tricks up, then she's screwed. However, I just need to prove that Mikoto was able to hurt Brunhild and provide a challenge, thus forcing the Saint to go at 100%, not that Mikoto would win. Thus whether she can keep it up long enough to win or not doesn't matter.

i dont want long paragraphs, but the "breaker of god" doesnt show up everytime she does saint-stuff, it is a optional spell in order to mostlikely fight angels(and aside from OT4 she never fought divine beings again)...

Only 1), she can't have expected to ever fight an Angel in her lifetime, and 2), Yuisen is a spell expressly stated to be able to cut an Angel, yet she uses it all the time. Besides, though she never fought an actual Divine being directly again, she fought Brunhild with Gungnir, a God's weapon, Mjolnir, another God's weapon, Acqua, who wielded the power of Gabriel, and Carissa with Curtana Original, which draws power from Michael. She had a hard time in all of those battles, so it makes no sense for her to have held any spells back. I find it more believable that Kamachi simply got tired of the name "breaker of god" and decided not to mention it ever again even though she still uses it. You know, kind of like Himegami never gets any attention anymore.

yeah, seems like it :)
but this still doesnt mean that saints get tired superfast :/

everyone has limits (aside from cheat-chars like kakines immortal-DM-body)...
kanzaki surely too, but who wouldnt be exhausted after this? :heh:
Doesn't mean they don't either. I argued that Saints get tired quickly and provided evidence. No matter how flimsy that evidence may be, it is better than nothing. You have yet to provide any real evidence to disprove my claims.

the fight with kaori vs acqua,
it began after kaori showed up, they fought, touma woke up, had his inner thoughts, started to go to the battlefield, itsuwa woke up from her unconsciousness, thought about touma and about kaori, and toumas talk with mikoto and also his arrivel at the fighting scene...
all of this surely took at least 5 or 10 minutes :/ and kaori was exhausted because she was pushed to her limits, brun wouldnt need such speed while fighting mikoto :/
So 5 to 10 minutes is a long time for you. Every day must feel like an eternity to you, then. Good to know.

The bottom line is, using Saint powers hurts the user over time, but using Esper powers does not. Mikoto could use her powers all day (and in fact, she does. All Espers do. That's how AIM is made) and not break a single capillary, but Brunhild could not. In a battle of pure endurance, in a theoretical situation where damage due to power use were the only factor, Brunhild would take more damage than Mikoto.

Of course, battles are decided by more than that. However, this does prove that time is not Brunhild's ally, but Mikoto's. Brunhild has an interest in not making the battle last forever.

the bolded part is where you make a mistake, the amount of "effort" needs to be included too, plus, why does mikotos life gets negative if bruns "gains" are calculated, the value of her life has the same amount, the "gain" after killing her or lettign her live shouldnt affect this...

therefore: x=a/b, y=a/c, the only variable is "b" and "c", and i think that killing her takes more effort than keeping her busy... therefore: b<c, which means x>y :eyespin: :D

BIB: in such cases most people simply look at the things they gain from killing the "opponent", if it isnt worth it they wouldnt give it their all, and i showed above that it wouldnt be worth going after her life if killing takes more effort than "not killing" :eyespin:
The value of Mikoto's life is a constant, but whether that constant is added or subtracted changes according to Brunhild's result. When Brunhild spares Mikoto, she gains any value that Mikoto holds for her, so she gains a. When Brunhild kills Mikoto, she loses any value Mikoto held to her because now she's dead, so she loses a, therefore she gains -a. My formula stands, so your argument is invalid.

what i tried to show was that her performance gets altered by her the existence of bloodlust or not, if she had bloodlust towards othinus like silvia than she would have tortured touma too, since she didnt have a personal grudge she didnt do it...
Her behavior changes according to bloodlust, not her performance. We're measuring how effective she is in battle, not how cruel she is.

this depends on the duration of the prolonged battle and the energy-expense of the "one-shot"-kill-attack...

the thing is, i never tried to say that brun would gain a easy win (if it looked like that, sorry), i simply dont think that she went with everything she had, the way the fight happened, her emotionless behavior and also that she didnt have a real reason to actively go after mikotos life are indicators that she didnt go all out, on the other hand mikoto actually used everything she was able to do :/

im sure, if she had some one-shot-kill she would have used it :eyespin:

BIB: and if that doesnt work than "keeping her away from the "decisive" fight with the least amount of effort possible" sounds like the next best option, and in my eyes the way the fight was written looks like that :)
Brunhild kept on the offensive the whole time. Doesn't seem like the best way to save energy to me.

than agree to disagree :/
After you.

agree, but it doesnt really mean that people would follow it :eyespin: :heh:
Brunhild is a professional. If you think she can't even follow this basic rule, then the one underestimating her isn't me, it's you.

i agree, but the boy wasnt directly connected...
He wasn't in NT10 either. Didn't make her anymore merciful towards Othinus.

not everyone can do this, if it was so easy nobody would fear saints :/
Anyone who can't do this is no threat to her in the first place. What good would analyzing one measly spell do for them if they can't deal with the difference in stats?

To sum it up, if they can neutralize her Saint/Valkyrie powers, Brunhild's spell becomes useless, so she loses nothing by showing extra spells. If they can't neutralize her powers, she can beat them without extra spells, so she loses nothing by showing them.

Finally, Brunhild's greatest weakness, that her powers cancel out every 3 months, can be exploited by anyone without any preparation. In the face of that glaring flaw, any other weakness is insignificant in comparison.

with a different example: do you calculate the way how a ball (in football) will be shot into the goal from you feet? i dont, it is mostly subconscious, and stuff like kakines abilitys cant even be calculated, i mean, who could tell him what h should calculate in order to create a mass that never existed before? :eyespin:
Only you don't use math to play football. Different areas of the brain apply, so your example isn't really relevant.

As for Kakine, I'm sure it involves lots of complex numbers and high degree differential equations or something.

yes and no, im trying to say that brun didnt go with 100%, im not saying that mikoto is light years away...
And yet everything you've done is try to say that Mikoto is insignificant in comparison to Brunhild.

but kaori was never her objective, no reason to go all out:
She was testing Kaori. How could the test be of any value if she didn't use her full power?

maybe i was to fast :p because we cant say she doesnt have AoE spells based on this "fight",
first: she was close to that boy, a AoE spell could very well become dangerous for him too, plus, she needed to protect him while fighting 10 of them at once...
and second: before the fight even began silvia walked into the room :/
the fight happened off-screen but the result seemed to have been a easy win for the 3 monsters :eyespin:
If she can't control the effect to not include the space she occupies, those would be very crappy AOE attacks. As for the fight being an easy win, Birdway has enough AOE attacks for an army. Note how her use of AOE attacks didn't seem to put the boy in any danger whatsoever.

Either way, I've made several arguments against Brunhild having any spells she hasn't shown us and the best you can say is "OK, but you didn't prove it 100%". We already agreed not to accept groundless speculation, so unless you have actual evidence that hints at these spells you're so sure she has, I must ask you to concede this point to me.

that means that it is possible, and saints in acquas case it isnt "creation" but "restoration" it shouldnt make him inferior, afterall it basically sets his body back to his natural state instead of twisting it :)
What's the difference between creating and restoring? It's not like they can rewind time, so either way, they have to twist his current body shape into something different. Whether that new shape is his original shape or not, the manipulation involved doesn't change.

They might have some success if they read his DNA to figure out how he was supposed to be, but that's a Science Side thing. They would have a lot more success mass producing Saints if they had access to AC's cloning technology.

heaven cancellar wouldnt really care about science/magic :cool: but i know what you mean, still, it doesnt really make that much sense, there are surely many legends where lost body parts growed/returned back to the owner :/
OK, then name me one example of such a legend. Also, legends relating to Gods don't count, since spells like that would fall under the domain of Magic Gods.

As for Heaven Canceller, I'm sure he'd gladly treat Fiamma. I'm not so sure Fiamma would think to rely on him, though. It's a psychological issue. Magic Side people try to solve problems with Magic Side methods, so they don't think about Science Side solutions usually.

LevelSeven

2015-09-02, 05:44

now you know what Touma felt like in NT9 too

? why? :heh:

So you concede you don't really have much to make an argument on. You didn't have anything to say about my comment on Heaven Canceller either.
no, my part with "small lightning creates damage too" was reffering to kuroko, as far as i know she isnt a full-tie hguest of HC :D
Recovery doesn't necessarily imply healing. If someone hits you in the stomach it can knock the wind out of you, causing you to stop breathing temporarily. You can recover and start breathing again, yet still have a bruise to show for it. In this case, she just took back control of her nerves and pushed past the damage so that she wouldn't be hit by the concrete, but she didn't heal, otherwise the word "forcibly" wouldn't have been used.
the problem is that the electricity blocks the signals of the brain which give orders to the muscles, "forcing" ones body out of this makes no sense (at least if there isnt a electric current countering the first one), being saint/valkyire or not, "freeing themselfes" from electric paralyzes doesnt make sense, this is why i mentioned that it isnt the same as some magical-seal :/

Listen, in battles, results are everything. There is no cosmic referee looking down on battles who will descend from the heavens to say "Wait Mikoto, you cheated! You only hit because you pinned Brunhild down! Yellow card, and Brunhild gets a penalty shot!". What matters is that Mikoto managed to hit and Brunhild did not. Arguing about Mikoto's senses not keeping up, or only hitting when she pins Brunhild down or dodging before the attacks start ect... that's all a waste of time, both yours and mine.
i only answered to your question, you asked if there was a time where brun dodged, and than said that lightning/magnetism is far faster than a saint/valkyrie, the problem is that lightning-speed isnt mikotos speed to attack, she only managed to have a chance in aiming after successfully stopping bruns movements...

You say that it's a problem because if Mikoto can't keep her tricks up, then she's screwed. However, I just need to prove that Mikoto was able to hurt Brunhild and provide a challenge, thus forcing the Saint to go at 100%, not that Mikoto would win. Thus whether she can keep it up long enough to win or not doesn't matter.
BIB: i already showed that the part where she was paralyzed was no damage, the assumption that "lightning may have a aftereffect after repeated use" is your speculation because until now in toaru not a single char got something like that :/
therefore, there was no damage on her shown in the LN :eyespin:

Only 1), she can't have expected to ever fight an Angel in her lifetime, and 2), Yuisen is a spell expressly stated to be able to cut an Angel, yet she uses it all the time. Besides, though she never fought an actual Divine being directly again, she fought Brunhild with Gungnir, a God's weapon, Mjolnir, another God's weapon, Acqua, who wielded the power of Gabriel, and Carissa with Curtana Original, which draws power from Michael. She had a hard time in all of those battles, so it makes no sense for her to have held any spells back. I find it more believable that Kamachi simply got tired of the name "breaker of god" and decided not to mention it ever again even though she still uses it. You know, kind of like Himegami never gets any attention anymore.
to 1: who knows ;) she also encountered a human turned into a "hammer" an wasnt that speechless as someone would expect :/ in a envoirenment where a lot of "impossible" things can happen it isnt to farfetched to assume that she actually encountered "angel-like" beings before (expsecially since it was somewhere mentioned how she fought against monsters and beast kings (which clearly arent normal things))...

to 2: but yuisen can be used without the aftereffect of worsen her condition rapidly if the enemy wasnt defeated in a very very short timespan, you cant say that because she uses one spell that she also uses another one only that it was never mentioned :/

Doesn't mean they don't either. I argued that Saints get tired quickly and provided evidence. No matter how flimsy that evidence may be, it is better than nothing. You have yet to provide any real evidence to disprove my claims.

BIB: and i showed you that it wasnt the case, they wont collapse after usage of 5 to 10 minuts of their abilitys, the example with OT4 was clearly because of "breaker of god" and any other time a saint showed up they either got beaten before reaching a "stamina-limit" or they won :/

So 5 to 10 minutes is a long time for you. Every day must feel like an eternity to you, then. Good to know.
sometimes more sometimes less :heh:
but in a fight: yes, 5 to 10 minutes are a lot of time exspecially if you consider that the participants are beings who travel at subsonic speed almost the whole time :eyespin:

The bottom line is, using Saint powers hurts the user over time, but using Esper powers does not. Mikoto could use her powers all day (and in fact, she does. All Espers do. That's how AIM is made) and not break a single capillary, but Brunhild could not. In a battle of pure endurance, in a theoretical situation where damage due to power use were the only factor, Brunhild would take more damage than Mikoto.

Of course, battles are decided by more than that. However, this does prove that time is not Brunhild's ally, but Mikoto's. Brunhild has an interest in not making the battle last forever.
BIB: i cant remember a single instance where this was shown :eyebrow:

The value of Mikoto's life is a constant, but whether that constant is added or subtracted changes according to Brunhild's result. When Brunhild spares Mikoto, she gains any value that Mikoto holds for her, so she gains a. When Brunhild kills Mikoto, she loses any value Mikoto held to her because now she's dead, so she loses a, therefore she gains -a. My formula stands, so your argument is invalid.

the problem still exists, her value is constant, it doesnt define itself with the action used on mikoto...
"x" and "y" are the things important to brun, mikotos life is a constant for itself not a variable attached to brun where its value is positive or negative depending on "killing" or "not killing",
"b" and "c" are the deciding factors, this are the variables used in order to determine what "gain" would brun have after ending or sparing mikotos life...

Her behavior changes according to bloodlust, not her performance. We're measuring how effective she is in battle, not how cruel she is.
i thought you meant the same :confused:
what is the different of "performance" and "behavior"?

Brunhild kept on the offensive the whole time. Doesn't seem like the best way to save energy to me.
staying at one place would make her more vulnerable for attacks (exspecially ifthey move at lightning to light speed)...

After you.
ok :D

Brunhild is a professional. If you think she can't even follow this basic rule, then the one underestimating her isn't me, it's you.
you cant use this, assuming that if one thinks it is ok doesnt meant he same for others, right now we have to little info about brun to assume that she thinks or doesnt think like that... everything about this will end as speculation...

He wasn't in NT10 either. Didn't make her anymore merciful towards Othinus.
but towards touma...

Anyone who can't do this is no threat to her in the first place. What good would analyzing one measly spell do for them if they can't deal with the difference in stats?
one measily spell disrupted = damage done to her....
something that otherwise wasnt possible for them since they havent been able to exploid the valkyrie/saint weakness...

To sum it up, if they can neutralize her Saint/Valkyrie powers, Brunhild's spell becomes useless, so she loses nothing by showing extra spells. If they can't neutralize her powers, she can beat them without extra spells, so she loses nothing by showing them.

Finally, Brunhild's greatest weakness, that her powers cancel out every 3 months, can be exploited by anyone without any preparation. In the face of that glaring flaw, any other weakness is insignificant in comparison.
and what good does this weakness do if she stands before the enemy in a time where her powers arent gone?
you let it sound like if she has a weakness it could compeltly destroy her, and the weaknesses who would create less-damage but are more easily to exploid are useless...
accels weakness with pull-back-punches can only be mastered by people who know the exact value (in our case it is the "saint/valkyrie general weakness"), on the other hand if someone can discupt the connection with the network than accel will become powerless (which is something that everyone could do (komaba)), the problem is that accel has a counter for the latter but not for the first one, bruns case is similar, why should she show weaknesses usuable by almost everyone?

Only you don't use math to play football. Different areas of the brain apply, so your example isn't really relevant.
but esprs abilitys are not really "only maths" either, they involve physical components, in mikotos case they are emotions, and accel can do the calculations for passive reflection as fast as light? and this even while he sleeps :/

As for Kakine, I'm sure it involves lots of complex numbers and high degree differential equations or something.
i mean, who told him what kiind of calculation he should do for his powers? if the masster he creates never existed before nobody should be able to know the calculation for such a power either :/ (only answer i can think of is that powers can be used without calculations, but they require active control(aka calculations) for higher degree of mastery)
and how can someone calculate telepathic things? or tsuchimikados power?

And yet everything you've done is try to say that Mikoto is insignificant in comparison to Brunhild.
no, what i tried to show was the brun didnt go all out, the way the fight was written and the reason for the fight all pointed into the direction of her not using 100%...maybe she used 90% or 80%, i never tried to say that there was a way for her to get a sure-win in the fight :)

She was testing Kaori. How could the test be of any value if she didn't use her full power?
she made kaori go all out(which didnt happen) but from the flow of the fight you can clearly see that kaori got angry and than started taking pieces from the big blade... you saw the quote yourself, i dont know why brun thought kaori was a nobody but she stopped and than went away for her main goal :/

If she can't control the effect to not include the space she occupies, those would be very crappy AOE attacks. As for the fight being an easy win, Birdway has enough AOE attacks for an army. Note how her use of AOE attacks didn't seem to put the boy in any danger whatsoever.
BIB: i doubt that she only has AoE attacks :/

Either way, I've made several arguments against Brunhild having any spells she hasn't shown us and the best you can say is "OK, but you didn't prove it 100%". We already agreed not to accept groundless speculation, so unless you have actual evidence that hints at these spells you're so sure she has, I must ask you to concede this point to me.
ok, this point belongs to you :)

What's the difference between creating and restoring? It's not like they can rewind time, so either way, they have to twist his current body shape into something different. Whether that new shape is his original shape or not, the manipulation involved doesn't change.
creation: the forming of something which previously didnt exist, as in: turning a non-saint into a saint, but from the fake-valkyries it seems like they would be weaker than the real ones...
restoring: bringing something back to his original look/shape, if they heal acqua than he wouldnt be a "new saint" but a "healed saint", i dont think that he would lack saint-powers, otherwise it doesnt make sense :/

They might have some success if they read his DNA to figure out how he was supposed to be, but that's a Science Side thing. They would have a lot more success mass producing Saints if they had access to AC's cloning technology.
BIB: THIS! THIS! THIS!, i thought this too, i mean, they could easily create hundreds of saints, afterall their bods are the important part...

OK, then name me one example of such a legend. Also, legends relating to Gods don't count, since spells like that would fall under the domain of Magic Gods.
BIB: im not a expert :heh: but there is still the possbility to create a spell with fantasys like the cuthulu-storys...

As for Heaven Canceller, I'm sure he'd gladly treat Fiamma. I'm not so sure Fiamma would think to rely on him, though. It's a psychological issue. Magic Side people try to solve problems with Magic Side methods, so they don't think about Science Side solutions usually.
unfortunatly :/

Doom_Paperclip

2015-09-05, 10:44

no, my part with "small lightning creates damage too" was reffering to kuroko, as far as i know she isnt a full-tie hguest of HC :D

We're not talking about stun guns or tasers here. We've seen that Mikoto can control her power with enough finesse to manipulate matter on a molecular scale. I'm pretty sure that if she wants to give a shock that just stuns you a bit without any permanent effects, she can.

the problem is that the electricity blocks the signals of the brain which give orders to the muscles, "forcing" ones body out of this makes no sense (at least if there isnt a electric current countering the first one), being saint/valkyire or not, "freeing themselfes" from electric paralyzes doesnt make sense, this is why i mentioned that it isnt the same as some magical-seal :/

She can control her own blood flow. Maybe she took a page out of Avatar and "blood-bent" herself to move despite the damage, or something similar?

i only answered to your question, you asked if there was a time where brun dodged, and than said that lightning/magnetism is far faster than a saint/valkyrie, the problem is that lightning-speed isnt mikotos speed to attack, she only managed to have a chance in aiming after successfully stopping bruns movements...

I asked if there was a point in which Mikoto had trouble aiming at Brunhild. The answer is that she never had any such problems. The fact that she pinned Brunhild down before aiming wasn't really relevant, as that is an action separate from the aiming itself.

BIB: i already showed that the part where she was paralyzed was no damage, the assumption that "lightning may have a aftereffect after repeated use" is your speculation because until now in toaru not a single char got something like that :/
therefore, there was no damage on her shown in the LN :eyespin:

You did not show that there was no damage. In fact, the text outright states that "Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage", which indicates that there was damage inflicted that had to be recovered. Your argument was that there was no lasting damage, arguing that Brunhild somehow healed from it. You have yet to prove this.

to 1: who knows ;) she also encountered a human turned into a "hammer" an wasnt that speechless as someone would expect :/ in a envoirenment where a lot of "impossible" things can happen it isnt to farfetched to assume that she actually encountered "angel-like" beings before (expsecially since it was somewhere mentioned how she fought against monsters and beast kings (which clearly arent normal things))...

I'm sure she fought lots of things that don't fit neatly in the category of human, but Misha clearly stood out in a league of its own. Angel Fall was an impossible spell. Without the distortion of the four elements, it could not have happened. It was impossible for Kaori to expect to have to ever fight something like that.

to 2: but yuisen can be used without the aftereffect of worsen her condition rapidly if the enemy wasnt defeated in a very very short timespan, you cant say that because she uses one spell that she also uses another one only that it was never mentioned :/

It still doesn't make sense that she wouldn't use it all the times she fought a superior foe like Acqua, Carissa ect...

Kaori wishes for the salvation of every single human being on the planet. It's in her magic name, Salvare000. She is a Saint not just literally, but also figuratively as well. If she thought it would help her save people, she would have used an extra powerup if she had one, disregarding any cost to herself. I find it much more believable that she simply kept on using the spell, but it was never named in the text ever again.

BIB: and i showed you that it wasnt the case, they wont collapse after usage of 5 to 10 minuts of their abilitys, the example with OT4 was clearly because of "breaker of god" and any other time a saint showed up they either got beaten before reaching a "stamina-limit" or they won :/

sometimes more sometimes less :heh:
but in a fight: yes, 5 to 10 minutes are a lot of time exspecially if you consider that the participants are beings who travel at subsonic speed almost the whole time :eyespin:

I'll concede that they won't tire out in 5 or 10 minutes. I still affirm that they tire faster than ordinary fighters.

BIB: i cant remember a single instance where this was shown :eyebrow:

My affirmation was based on the assumption that the "breaker of god" spell is representative of all physical enhancement spells used by Saints.

the problem still exists, her value is constant, it doesnt define itself with the action used on mikoto...
"x" and "y" are the things important to brun, mikotos life is a constant for itself not a variable attached to brun where its value is positive or negative depending on "killing" or "not killing",
"b" and "c" are the deciding factors, this are the variables used in order to determine what "gain" would brun have after ending or sparing mikotos life...

When you pick up 50$ of the road, you gain +50$. When you drop 50$ from your wallet, you gain -50$. Same here. When Brunhild spares Mikoto, she gains +1 Mikoto's existence in her life, or +a. When Brunhild kills Mikoto, she loses the value of Mikoto's existence in her life, so she gains -a. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

I clearly defined "a" as the value that Mikoto holds towards Brunhild, not the value of Mikoto's life in and of itself. So yeah, it can be added or subtracted according to what happens to her.

i thought you meant the same :confused:
what is the different of "performance" and "behavior"?

Performance is a measure of how effectively something does its intended function within a certain context. In this case, performance means how good Brunhild is at fighting.

Behavior is how a living acts in response to its circumstances. In this case, we're discussing how cruel Brunhild acts, which is separate from how good she is at fighting. In brief, they do not mean the same thing.

staying at one place would make her more vulnerable for attacks (exspecially ifthey move at lightning to light speed)...

She doesn't have to keep on attacking just to stay on the move though. Besides, she was able to fend off Mikoto's attacks without dodging. In fact, dodging was the only way she didn't use to repel Mikoto's attacks. Based on this, an optimal time-stalling tactic would have been to stay still and parry all attacks, only moving if Mikoto tried to escape or interfere in another battle. Attacking non-stop is, in essence, the opposite of stalling for time.

you cant use this, assuming that if one thinks it is ok doesnt meant he same for others, right now we have to little info about brun to assume that she thinks or doesnt think like that... everything about this will end as speculation...

You're the one who assumed she'd plan based on the best case scenario (her two companions win their battles) first. So I say, right back at you!

but towards touma...

The point is, she wasn't any worse at fighting than if she had been 100% enraged.

one measily spell disrupted = damage done to her....
something that otherwise wasnt possible for them since they havent been able to exploid the valkyrie/saint weakness...

No. For the most part, disrupting your spell means you can't use it, like what happens when you destroy the runes that feed Innocentius. Examples of disrupted spells harming their user are rare in TAMNI, limited to cases like Index's spell intercept or screw ups like the Seven Deadly Sins spell in NT10, where they didn't install any safeties.

and what good does this weakness do if she stands before the enemy in a time where her powers arent gone?

It was more of a case of the enemy attacking her, actually. It doesn't work on the defensive side at all.

you let it sound like if she has a weakness it could compeltly destroy her, and the weaknesses who would create less-damage but are more easily to exploid are useless...
accels weakness with pull-back-punches can only be mastered by people who know the exact value (in our case it is the "saint/valkyrie general weakness"), on the other hand if someone can discupt the connection with the network than accel will become powerless (which is something that everyone could do (komaba)), the problem is that accel has a counter for the latter but not for the first one, bruns case is similar, why should she show weaknesses usuable by almost everyone?

The thing is, you can't prove that the hypothetical hidden spells would be easier to disrupt than her Saint/Valkyrie nature. If anything, it's the opposite. She can base most of her spells on any obscure system she wants to make it hard to analyze, but her Saint/Valkyrie nature is a known value she cannot hide or disguise in any way.

Either way, this point is moot. You aren't able to prove she has any other combat spells in the first place, so arguing about whether it would be good or bad to hide them is pointless.

but esprs abilitys are not really "only maths" either, they involve physical components, in mikotos case they are emotions, and accel can do the calculations for passive reflection as fast as light? and this even while he sleeps :/

Esper abilities themselves are independent of the user's calculation abilities and can be triggered by bursts of emotion. However, when they want to make deliberate, non-accidental use of their powers, they use calculations to do it. In other words, conscious use of their abilities require conscious calculations.

Accelerator's passive shields are slightly harder to explain, but I'd like you to note the fact that Accelerator is able to consciously change the way his Reflection discriminates between harmful and safe stimuli, like when he figured out how to reflect Dark Matter in OT15. So yeah, I guess Accelerator's brain is doing math all the time, even when asleep. That's a fairly unique trait even in AC, which I guess is why they made the Dark May project.

i mean, who told him what kiind of calculation he should do for his powers? if the masster he creates never existed before nobody should be able to know the calculation for such a power either :/ (only answer i can think of is that powers can be used without calculations, but they require active control(aka calculations) for higher degree of mastery)
and how can someone calculate telepathic things? or tsuchimikados power?
To be fair, though, AC is full of geniuses. Just look at Kihara Enshuu. It took hundreds of scientists thousands of years and billions of dollars worth of equipment to create what we recognize as modern science. Enshuu was able to do the same in less than a decade with nothing more than what she could find in a dusty room. She is literally smarter than every real life scientist who has ever lived combined. She is also considered a failure by the other Kiharas.

A full Kihara probably calculates the meaning of life seven times before breakfast. If anyone can figure out the calculations for making something that doesn't exist yet, they can.

Telepathy and regeneration are easy to explain in comparison. You just need to calculate the values pertaining to brain waves and cell replication respectively.

no, what i tried to show was the brun didnt go all out, the way the fight was written and the reason for the fight all pointed into the direction of her not using 100%...maybe she used 90% or 80%, i never tried to say that there was a way for her to get a sure-win in the fight :)

Then tell me. How do you think a 100% Brunhild would have acted differently from what we saw in NT6?

Would she have been faster? That wouldn't have made a difference according to your own argument. You said that if Mikoto reacts before the attacks come, then it makes no difference if Brunhild moves slower, so logically the opposite is also true.

Would she have been stronger? That wouldn't have made much difference either. Brunhild could already overpower Mikoto in a contest of strength. Mikoto was only ever just using tricks to trip her up for a brief moment of time.

The way I see it, following this logic, it makes no difference whether Brunhild was at 70% or 100%. In that case, how about we compromise? I'll give up on proving that Mikoto definitely fought Brunhild at 100%, but in exchange, you concede that Mikoto is capable of fighting Brunhild at 100%, regardless of whether or not Brunhild actually gave her all in NT6.

creation: the forming of something which previously didnt exist, as in: turning a non-saint into a saint, but from the fake-valkyries it seems like they would be weaker than the real ones...
restoring: bringing something back to his original look/shape, if they heal acqua than he wouldnt be a "new saint" but a "healed saint", i dont think that he would lack saint-powers, otherwise it doesnt make sense :/

What I'm saying is, what's the difference in this context? Let me make an example. Say you have a house. Someone drops a bomb on the house such that it is destroyed an all the remaining pieces are unusable. Rebuilding the house as it used to be wouldn't be any easier than building a new house. The house used to exist, but it doesn't exist anymore. Its past existence has no bearing on the difficulty of building it. Now lets say that the house in question is Acqua's Saint power. See what I'm trying to say?

BIB: im not a expert :heh: but there is still the possbility to create a spell with fantasys like the cuthulu-storys...

So, you can't prove that such a spell could exist, but you have groundless confidence that it does simply based on the fact that there are so many legends? My counterargument is that most myths involving mortals are cruel and end in death. Things that are lost are rarely ever regained. It is altogether possible that no convenient-limb restoring spell can be made.

LevelSeven

2015-09-07, 06:19

We're not talking about stun guns or tasers here. We've seen that Mikoto can control her power with enough finesse to manipulate matter on a molecular scale. I'm pretty sure that if she wants to give a shock that just stuns you a bit without any permanent effects, she can.
in order to cause the lvl of paralyzes and uncosciousness seen by kuroko (or thugs) the amount of "control" doesnt matter, it is bound to create disturbances in the nervous system and cause damage in at the heart and brain...
She can control her own blood flow. Maybe she took a page out of Avatar and "blood-bent" herself to move despite the damage, or something similar?

:twitch: there is someone except me who watched avatar? :twitch: :twitch:
I asked if there was a point in which Mikoto had trouble aiming at Brunhild. The answer is that she never had any such problems. The fact that she pinned Brunhild down before aiming wasn't really relevant, as that is an action separate from the aiming itself.
true...
You did not show that there was no damage. In fact, the text outright states that "Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage", which indicates that there was damage inflicted that had to be recovered. Your argument was that there was no lasting damage, arguing that Brunhild somehow healed from it. You have yet to prove this.
doesnt "Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage" already say that she recovered? exspecially since it doesnt say that she forcibly recovered from the electric paralyzes but from the electric damge :)
It still doesn't make sense that she wouldn't use it all the times she fought a superior foe like Acqua, Carissa ect...
agree, it doesnt make sense but we cant assume she used it if the text never mentioned it or hinted his usage :(

Esper abilities themselves are independent of the user's calculation abilities and can be triggered by bursts of emotion. However, when they want to make deliberate, non-accidental use of their powers, they use calculations to do it. In other words, conscious use of their abilities require conscious calculations.
this is what i think too, the abilitys exist without calculation and can also be used without them to some extend (like accels skin still reflecting uv-rays despite having normal-mode in his chocker), but higher-lvl control only works via high-lvl calculations...

Accelerator's passive shields are slightly harder to explain, but I'd like you to note the fact that Accelerator is able to consciously change the way his Reflection discriminates between harmful and safe stimuli, like when he figured out how to reflect Dark Matter in OT15. So yeah, I guess Accelerator's brain is doing math all the time, even when asleep. That's a fairly unique trait even in AC, which I guess is why they made the Dark May project.
maybe it is his "trait", like the "triat" of pyrokinetic espers to create a certain amount of heat without knowing or the trait of electromasters to create a em-waves...

To be fair, though, AC is full of geniuses. Just look at Kihara Enshuu. It took hundreds of scientists thousands of years and billions of dollars worth of equipment to create what we recognize as modern science. Enshuu was able to do the same in less than a decade with nothing more than what she could find in a dusty room. She is literally smarter than every real life scientist who has ever lived combined. She is also considered a failure by the other Kiharas.
to be honest, for me, she is the greatest "failed"-kihara, no, not with "she is a failed kihara inside the story", but in "worst kihara created by kamachi", her backstory was equally stupid :/ (becoming a genius without getting any basics... good that she doesnt show up in the story anymore :) )

A full Kihara probably calculates the meaning of life seven times before breakfast. If anyone can figure out the calculations for making something that doesn't exist yet, they can.
it isnt like that, any scientist tries that :heh: but the problem is, how did they know such a ability existed if kakine first needed the calculations for the creation of "dark matter"?
it is paradox since without the DM the kiharas wont know that kakine has this powers, and without having seen DM (or knowing something about it) the kiharas wont know if there is something to calculate :eyespin:

Telepathy and regeneration are easy to explain in comparison. You just need to calculate the values pertaining to brain waves and cell replication respectively.
true...

In that case, how about we compromise? I'll give up on proving that Mikoto definitely fought Brunhild at 100%, but in exchange, you concede that Mikoto is capable of fighting Brunhild at 100%, regardless of whether or not Brunhild actually gave her all in NT6.
ok :)

What I'm saying is, what's the difference in this context? Let me make an example. Say you have a house. Someone drops a bomb on the house such that it is destroyed an all the remaining pieces are unusable. Rebuilding the house as it used to be wouldn't be any easier than building a new house. The house used to exist, but it doesn't exist anymore. Its past existence has no bearing on the difficulty of building it. Now lets say that the house in question is Acqua's Saint power. See what I'm trying to say?

your analogy isnt completly correct, the house shouldnt be his saint-power but his whole body,
than the bomb comes and the house in itself (with fundament etc) is still there (his body didnt die), but the internal floors got badly damaged (the saint power(organs) got damaged),
now there are the options of recreation or healing, lets say the healing isnt possible, than they could simply take the floor away and create the same one, it wouldnt be one bit inferior to the previous version since the "house" (his body) already had this special floors (the shape for saint powrs) since the beginning...

ont he other hand, the people who want saint power (special floors) without having the propr house (body) will either need to completly change their body(house) which isnt possible, or they get inferior "special floors" (shapes similar to saint/valkyries) in their houses (bodys) :eyespin:

this is why i think that acqua could get his old saint powers back without being inferior despite the case that it maybe needs a recration :)
So, you can't prove that such a spell could exist, but you have groundless confidence that it does simply based on the fact that there are so many legends? My counterargument is that most myths involving mortals are cruel and end in death. Things that are lost are rarely ever regained. It is altogether possible that no convenient-limb restoring spell can be made.
it isnt compeltly groundless, look at th cuthulu-thing, the spells are from a completly fictional story which is proved to be created by humans, but idol theory still works on it,
creating something like that is surely possible...
actually, since even cinderella could be used im starting to think that at some day someone shows up who could use bugy bunny as idol and use the "toon force" :heh: (only a matter of "does kamachi want it" :eyespin: )

Doom_Paperclip

2015-09-07, 16:26

in order to cause the lvl of paralyzes and uncosciousness seen by kuroko (or thugs) the amount of "control" doesnt matter, it is bound to create disturbances in the nervous system and cause damage in at the heart and brain...

She could just stimulate pain nerves specifically in order to induce shock without touching the central nervous system directly. There are dozens of ways to use electricity to incapacitate someone without permanent damage if you can control electricity on that level.

doesnt "Brunhild forcibly recovered from the electric damage" already say that she recovered? exspecially since it doesnt say that she forcibly recovered from the electric paralyzes but from the electric damge :)

Recovery =/= healing. The meanings are similar, but you can recover without fully healing.

agree, it doesnt make sense but we cant assume she used it if the text never mentioned it or hinted his usage :(

On the contrary, if it doesn't make sense, then that is perfectly good grounds for making such an assumption.

It's not like there are no precedents for this. In OT1, Stiyl had incantations for all his spells, but these were all omitted in future volumes, even though in theory he should be using them each time. In general, once Kamachi describes a power in detail, he doesn't use the same level of detail in future uses.

it isnt like that, any scientist tries that :heh: but the problem is, how did they know such a ability existed if kakine first needed the calculations for the creation of "dark matter"?

it is paradox since without the DM the kiharas wont know that kakine has this powers, and without having seen DM (or knowing something about it) the kiharas wont know if there is something to calculate :eyespin:

Doesn't the System Scan tell them what abilities Espers have even before they develop them?

ok :)

OK. I'll still keep on arguing on the other points, though, because I love nitpicking.

your analogy isnt completly correct, the house shouldnt be his saint-power but his whole body,
than the bomb comes and the house in itself (with fundament etc) is still there (his body didnt die), but the internal floors got badly damaged (the saint power(organs) got damaged),
now there are the options of recreation or healing, lets say the healing isnt possible, than they could simply take the floor away and create the same one, it wouldnt be one bit inferior to the previous version since the "house" (his body) already had this special floors (the shape for saint powrs) since the beginning...

ont he other hand, the people who want saint power (special floors) without having the propr house (body) will either need to completly change their body(house) which isnt possible, or they get inferior "special floors" (shapes similar to saint/valkyries) in their houses (bodys) :eyespin:

this is why i think that acqua could get his old saint powers back without being inferior despite the case that it maybe needs a recration :)

No, either way, building the floors isn't any easier just because they used to exist. It still requires the same amount of time and materials. In fact, it might be easier to demolish what's left and rebuild everything from scratch since there is a chance that the damaged remnants could get in the way. Just ask an architect if you don't believe me.

it isnt compeltly groundless, look at th cuthulu-thing, the spells are from a completly fictional story which is proved to be created by humans, but idol theory still works on it,
creating something like that is surely possible...
actually, since even cinderella could be used im starting to think that at some day someone shows up who could use bugy bunny as idol and use the "toon force" :heh: (only a matter of "does kamachi want it" :eyespin: )

“Aleister…don’t tell me you’re trying to create an artificial heaven?”
“What do you say?”

Aleister just coldly gave him that response.

“An artificial heaven…no, if it’s created only with the power of science, it can’t be called things like heaven or hell. This is a new world, not existing in the classics like Kabbalah, Buddhism, Christianity, Shintoism, or Hinduism.”

And once that new world was created, it meant all of magic would be erased.

For example, assume that the buoyancy and lift values of the world were drastically increased.

In that situation, according to the picture that a kindergarten child would draw, the plane would never fly, but even by following an expert’s design to create a plane, one couldn’t fly as well. However in reality, the plane would still glide on the runway as it tried to fly. What would happen though was that the plane would instantly lose balance once it left the ground, and crash.

Once the new world appeared, the magic environment would drastically change, and it would have a similar meaning. Once a magician tried to use magic, their body would explode. The temples and churches that were supported by magic would lose the support, and collapse.

The same phenomenon would occur to any religion.

Thinking closely, one would know that any religion had a certain set of rules. Of course, there wasn’t just one. Buddhism has Buddhist laws, Christianity has Christian laws. Those laws were like all sorts of colors that were newly drawn on this large picture called the world.

All the religions had only one common point, and that was a certain set of laws.

So what would happen if a new world was inserted where the law existed? The law and order that was originally there would be jumbled up. The magicians would explode and kill themselves no matter what kind of magic they used.

There are dozens of religions out there, but they all draw from the same tropes and follow roughly similar rules. As such, no matter what system you use, what is ultimately possible or impossible for magic doesn't change as much as you would think.

You could try creating a new system different from every other, but religions are used in magic because they have stood the test of time. Their rules are tried and tested. It is likely that if you try to go against that, you'll get a crappy spell that will eat up all your life force and spit out nothing.

LevelSeven

2015-09-09, 08:08

She could just stimulate pain nerves specifically in order to induce shock without touching the central nervous system directly. There are dozens of ways to use electricity to incapacitate someone without permanent damage if you can control electricity on that level.
BIB: this would require constant control of the other persons body, at most this method would result in spasm of the muscles and numb feelings...
here is a article,
Causes and symptoms
The severity of injury depends on the current's pressure (voltage), the amount of current (amperage), the type of current (direct vs. alternating), the body's resistance to the current, the current's path through the body, and how long the body remains in contact with the current. The interplay of these factors can produce effects ranging from barely noticeable tingling to instant death; every part of the body is vulnerable. Although the severity of injury is determined primarily by the voltage, low voltage can be just as dangerous as high voltage under the right circumstances. People have been killed by shocks of just 50 volts.
How electric shocks affect the skin is determined by the skin's resistance, which in turn is dependent upon the wetness, thickness, and cleanliness of the skin. Thin or wet skin is much less resistant than thick or dry skin. When skin resistance is low, the current may cause little or no skin damage but severely burn internal organs and tissues. Conversely, high skin resistance can produce severe skin burns but prevent the current from entering the body.
The nervous system (the brain, spinal cord, and nerves) is particularly vulnerable to injury. In fact, neurological problems are the most common kind of nonlethal harm suffered by electric shock victims. Some neurological damage is minor and clears up on its own or with medical treatment, but some is severe and permanent. Neurological problems may be apparent immediately after the accident, or gradually develop over a period of up to three years.
Damage to the respiratory and cardiovascular systems is most acute at the moment of injury. Electric shocks can paralyze the respiratory system or disrupt heart action, causing instant death. Also at risk are the smaller veins and arteries, which dissipate heat less easily than the larger blood vessels and can develop blood clots. Damage to the smaller vessels is probably one reason why amputation is often required following high-voltage injuries.
Many other sorts of injuries are possible after an electric shock, including cataracts, kidney failure, and substantial destruction of muscle tissue. The victim may suffer a fall or be hit by debris from exploding equipment. An electric arc may set clothing or nearby flammable substances on fire. Strong shocks are often accompanied by violent muscle spasms that can break and dislocate bones. These spasms can also freeze the victim in place and prevent him or her from breaking away from the source of the current.

article: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Electric+Shock+Injuries

Recovery =/= healing. The meanings are similar, but you can recover without fully healing.
true, but nothing suggested that in that case she didnt heal fully :eyespin:

On the contrary, if it doesn't make sense, then that is perfectly good grounds for making such an assumption.

It's not like there are no precedents for this. In OT1, Stiyl had incantations for all his spells, but these were all omitted in future volumes, even though in theory he should be using them each time. In general, once Kamachi describes a power in detail, he doesn't use the same level of detail in future uses.
no, styil didnt always use incantations, otherwise kamachi would have said it, actually, i cant remember a time where the spell wasnt written while it was casted, i dont usually do this but a part from the wiki:
Stiyl can also summon Innocentius, seemingly without using any rune card or chant, merging two flames in his hands and directly throwing the fire monster against the target.[30]

the [30] is as reference for the endymion movie :)

Doesn't the System Scan tell them what abilities Espers have even before they develop them?
im not sure, i always thought they would "scan" the powers which the kids showed, otherwise i dont think they could literally "scan" the esper in order to find their powers,
maybe it works with common powers like electromaster or pyrokinesis but stuff like kakines abilitys are unique... without first showing the existence of DM i cant imagine how even aleister could create the calculations for it, afterall it never exsited before :/
(wasnt there a railgun-filler-anime-scene where a small part of the "sysem scan" for the tokiwaday girls was showed?)

OK. I'll still keep on arguing on the other points, though, because I love nitpicking.
who doesnt :heh:

No, either way, building the floors isn't any easier just because they used to exist. It still requires the same amount of time and materials. In fact, it might be easier to demolish what's left and rebuild everything from scratch since there is a chance that the damaged remnants could get in the way. Just ask an architect if you don't believe me.
i never said they are easier to built, what i mean is that i dont think that they will become inferior to the previous floor (saint power), this is different than changing the pre-existing floor (normals human shape organs) into a different shape (saint shape) without touching most of the houses-shape (body)...
easier/expensive or not, if i could imagine to get myself a nuke again i wouldnt really hestitate :)

There are dozens of religions out there, but they all draw from the same tropes and follow roughly similar rules. As such, no matter what system you use, what is ultimately possible or impossible for magic doesn't change as much as you would think.
i agree, but we dont know what they (the rules) exactly "forbid", obviously they allow the usage of human-made idols like the cuthulu-spells, and they can create something out of nothing, furthermore the body can be shaped to their liking (like with marian), it allows reality manipulation on hugh scales and can change a humans bodys "invisible being" into that of a majin...

all in all, if the "regrow" of a body part is to much for toaru magic i would really want to know what exactly is allowed and what isnt, appareantly as long as idol theory works there are no set rules, only the ones from the legend/story the magician is using, but even they can be countered by using another story and combining them :/

You could try creating a new system different from every other, but religions are used in magic because they have stood the test of time. Their rules are tried and tested. It is likely that if you try to go against that, you'll get a crappy spell that will eat up all your life force and spit out nothing.
BIB: bridway mantion this too :/ and if someone is knowledgeable enough for this than it should be fiamma and co :eyespin: (exspecially ollerus :p)

Doom_Paperclip

2015-09-16, 19:00

BIB: this would require constant control of the other persons body, at most this method would result in spasm of the muscles and numb feelings...
here is a article,

Not so. Intense pain, like, say, from having your pain nerves directly stimulated by electricity, can trigger an autonomic response that slows your heart rate and consequently leads your blood pressure to plummet. When this happens, the brain no longer receives enough blood, resulting in unconsciousness. To make a long story short, it is possible to literally faint from pain. Misaka could easily make this happen whilst avoiding collateral damage.

true, but nothing suggested that in that case she didnt heal fully :eyespin:

Nothing suggested she did either. If anything, if she had truly fully healed, the word "forcefully" would not have been employed.

no, styil didnt always use incantations, otherwise kamachi would have said it, actually, i cant remember a time where the spell wasnt written while it was casted, i dont usually do this but a part from the wiki:

the [30] is as reference for the endymion movie :)

You know as well as I do that quoting the wiki is essentially pointless. Over there, speculation is passed as fact as often as not. Just look at Accelerator's page. I remember a time when the page claimed he had an anti-magic aura and that his White Wings brought him into the Aeon of Horus.

For the sake of expediency, Kamachi never explains an ability in depth in more than one Volume. It would simply slow down the narration too much if he were to give each spell or power the same level of detail every time, so in subsequent Volumes he only uses the bare minimum level of detail required. Saint powers were explained comprehensively in Volume OT4, so after that I believe Kamachi simply felt no need to mention the name "breaker of god" or the strain it caused after that. At the very least, this makes a million times more sense than Kanzaki not using the spell in a desperate situation where lives are at stake.

im not sure, i always thought they would "scan" the powers which the kids showed, otherwise i dont think they could literally "scan" the esper in order to find their powers,
maybe it works with common powers like electromaster or pyrokinesis but stuff like kakines abilitys are unique... without first showing the existence of DM i cant imagine how even aleister could create the calculations for it, afterall it never exsited before :/
(wasnt there a railgun-filler-anime-scene where a small part of the "sysem scan" for the tokiwaday girls was showed?)

Officially, things might seem that way. However, we know there's a lot more to the system scan than what the students are being told. Besides, they can run simulations using computers like Tree Diagram, which can calculate the movement of each individual molecule in the atmosphere a month in advance in only one day, resulting in 100% accurate weather reports, a feat that all the real life computers in the world combined would not be able to replicate.

who doesnt :heh:

Judging by the fact that nobody else has joined in our argument for a while, almost everyone.

i never said they are easier to built, what i mean is that i dont think that they will become inferior to the previous floor (saint power), this is different than changing the pre-existing floor (normals human shape organs) into a different shape (saint shape) without touching most of the houses-shape (body)...
easier/expensive or not, if i could imagine to get myself a nuke again i wouldnt really hestitate :)

But Acqua has lost his "Saint shape". I argue that there is no difference between the body of a Saint who has lost his Stigmata and an ordinary human who never had Stigmata to begin with.

i agree, but we dont know what they (the rules) exactly "forbid", obviously they allow the usage of human-made idols like the cuthulu-spells, and they can create something out of nothing, furthermore the body can be shaped to their liking (like with marian), it allows reality manipulation on hugh scales and can change a humans bodys "invisible being" into that of a majin...

all in all, if the "regrow" of a body part is to much for toaru magic i would really want to know what exactly is allowed and what isnt, appareantly as long as idol theory works there are no set rules, only the ones from the legend/story the magician is using, but even they can be countered by using another story and combining them :/

A magician can use any story, but not all stories are equal. Some stories work better than others for spells, otherwise all magicians would simply spend ten minutes writing a story that a five year old could have thought of about an invincible and all powerful hero, use that as a basis for their magic and call it a day. The rules of magic don't so much dictate what can can and cannot be done in absolute terms, but what is and what isn't practical to attempt, given each human being only has so much life force they can refine before they croak.

BIB: bridway mantion this too :/ and if someone is knowledgeable enough for this than it should be fiamma and co :eyespin: (exspecially ollerus :p)

Please. Till the end, Fiamma never even left the realm of Christian spells. Even the Magic Gods, the pinnacle of magic, did not leave the Aeon of Osiris. I believe that Aleister is the only magician in thousands of years to have ever done something truly new with magic. If anyone can rebuild magic from the ground up, it would be him.

-Mahesvara_

2015-09-20, 01:37

Magic gods are absolutely broken lol

BladeMancer

2015-09-20, 01:39

Magic gods are absolutely broken lol
World Rejector is even more broken then they are

LevelSeven

2015-09-22, 06:15

Not so. Intense pain, like, say, from having your pain nerves directly stimulated by electricity, can trigger an autonomic response that slows your heart rate and consequently leads your blood pressure to plummet. When this happens, the brain no longer receives enough blood, resulting in unconsciousness. To make a long story short, it is possible to literally faint from pain.
but they didnt faint, they got paralyzed which indicates that their nerve system was "overloaded" by the electricity, this (if not controlling it the whole time) has high chances for aftereffects and long-term mental issues :/ this is what i wanted to show with the article :)
Misaka could easily make this happen whilst avoiding collateral damage.
wouldnt this require at least a few seconds of control of her electricity in the victims body?
Nothing suggested she did either. If anything, if she had truly fully healed, the word "forcefully" would not have been employed.
"forcefully" isnt a indicator for the amount of the healing, it describes the way how the recovery was reached...
it can either be partial or complete, but given the case that she never showed any disadvantage because of lingering pain/numb-ness i wouldnt set the otption of 100%-healing to far away :)
You know as well as I do that quoting the wiki is essentially pointless. Over there, speculation is passed as fact as often as not.
i know, this is why i also showed the reference of the sentecne, it happened in the endymion movie, and since it is canon we can assume that it works like that for others too :eyespin:
Just look at Accelerator's page. I remember a time when the page claimed he had an anti-magic aura and that his White Wings brought him into the Aeon of Horus.
it didnt really get better, the page about his "awakening" is still full of holes :/
For the sake of expediency, Kamachi never explains an ability in depth in more than one Volume. It would simply slow down the narration too much if he were to give each spell or power the same level of detail every time, so in subsequent Volumes he only uses the bare minimum level of detail required.
like the movie showed, not all spells need the same requirements to be used, styil as example used innocentius without chanting, kamachi says at least "he/she chanted/said something" if there was a spell involved like the time with vento vs fiamma in Vol.20...
Saint powers were explained comprehensively in Volume OT4, so after that I believe Kamachi simply felt no need to mention the name "breaker of god" or the strain it caused after that. At the very least, this makes a million times more sense than Kanzaki not using the spell in a desperate situation where lives are at stake.
the problem is that not even the usage of the spell was said, we cant assume she used it if the text never even said it, furthermore, the strain is inevitable, at least that would have gained a mentioned in order to describe the scene...
Officially, things might seem that way. However, we know there's a lot more to the system scan than what the students are being told.
we dont really know if there is more to a simple system scan :/
what do you mean with "more than being told"?
Besides, they can run simulations using computers like Tree Diagram, which can calculate the movement of each individual molecule in the atmosphere a month in advance in only one day, resulting in 100% accurate weather reports, a feat that all the real life computers in the world combined would not be able to replicate.
it doesnt really matter how much calc-power somethin has if it doesnt have anything to calculate :heh:
Judging by the fact that nobody else has joined in our argument for a while, almost everyone.
:heh:
But Acqua has lost his "Saint shape". I argue that there is no difference between the body of a Saint who has lost his Stigmata and an ordinary human who never had Stigmata to begin with.

this where we disagree, i dont think that their bodys are the same, afterall acqua was able to control more than "normally" possible, the "methadology to manipulate great" was still in him :eyespin:
A magician can use any story, but not all stories are equal. Some stories work better than others for spells, otherwise all magicians would simply spend ten minutes writing a story that a five year old could have thought of about an invincible and all powerful hero, use that as a basis for their magic and call it a day. The rules of magic don't so much dictate what can can and cannot be done in absolute terms, but what is and what isn't practical to attempt, given each human being only has so much life force they can refine before they croak.
of course it wont be easy, the cuthulu story wasnt simply used but needed to be "recreated" by someone who used all possible magic systems and calculated all the needed rituals in order to create the same things that happened in the story :/
Please. Till the end, Fiamma never even left the realm of Christian spells. Even the Magic Gods, the pinnacle of magic, did not leave the Aeon of Osiris. I believe that Aleister is the only magician in thousands of years to have ever done something truly new with magic. If anyone can rebuild magic from the ground up, it would be him.
BIB: was this stated? i remember to have read somewhere that they had been between osiris and horus since they are gods or so :/