High School DxD Light Novel Feats Resource/Discussion thread [Archive] - Page 4

DragonOsman

2017-03-30, 07:12

Just for fun:heh:

Knowing the characters' abilities effects and functions of their abilities/powers is easy. But analyzing the characters' extent of their abilities, doing calculations to get a proper approximates especially when dealing with numbers, and/or getting proper approximates given the in-series feats can be hard especially for this series due to the nature of data in this series.

So basically I made a personal tier list of who's the most "analyzable" in terms of analyzing the characters' extent of their abilities, doing calculations to get a proper approximates especially when dealing with numbers, and/or getting proper approximates given the in-series feats. Top is the one with the most good and analyzable data while the bottom is has the least amount of analyzable data. What would be factored in here is feats and analysis using the events that happens in the ongoing series itself and statements that have strong backups to them (especially when the ongoing event is the backup itself). Statements alone and class categories won't be factored much since those are not enough to get proper approximates though it's pretty good to keep it in mind.

Note that this is not a "tier list of who's the strongest among the roster" or "tier list of who's the most useful among the roster" list.

Anyway, here's mine. This list would be the list among the ORIGINAL members of Rias's peerage (basically before they split in volume 22) while taking the feats from the volume 22 onwards into account. In my list, I'll be basing it off from the very beginning up to the recent volumes I fully read (by at least volume 21). This is my list is just an opinion based on my experience on trying to analyze their extent of their abilities, doing calculations to get a proper approximates especially when dealing with numbers, and/or getting proper approximates given the in-series feats. This list may change in the future:

Issei
-huge gap here-
Kiba
Xenovia
Gasper
*Rias
*Koneko
*Akeno
*Rossweisse
Asia

*These characters are almost equal in terms of level of being "analyzable" so it's hard to place them properly. I tried my best to place them in the tier list based on my experience analyzing them feat wise.

For Asia's case, she doesn't have much battle feats since she's more of a support character in battle so I also factored in the extent of her support abilities, which is also hard to analyze and get a grasp of it's extent hence her place in the tier list. She's just slightly lower compared to above her at least in terms of being "analyzable."

I put the "huge gap" notes underneath Issei since the amount of analyzable data he had compared to the rest of the characters is significant. Heck, current Issei is analyzable to the point that he's the most usable in the series for crossover matchup debates based on my experience trying to do feat analysis throughout most characters in the series (please don't suggest crossover matchup debates in this thread because of this sentence. I'm just pointing something out here based on my experience).

What are you guys' thought on this? Do you guys have your own tier list on a particular roster in terms on who's "analyzable"? Feel free to discuss though be prepared to get challenged by anyone in one way or another (especially by me though I'll try my best not to be rude. I may provide outside this series as an example to prove certain points when necessary but I'll put it in spoiler tag tho).

I know that not everyone is into going in-depth when it comes to analyzing characters' abilities and/or feats, and/or doing calculations and approximates but I hope you guys enjoy the read.

@Everyone: Please look at the parts I've put in bold. The heck are you all doing rating them based on power? Krudelu's talking about who's more analyzable based on what we can know about them and their feats, not about who is stronger or more useful. Please read more carefully before commenting! Sheesh. Le sigh

Anyway, yeah, I agree with the list.

Edit: Okay, I didn't mean to include Katokateki in that "Everyone". So my bad there.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 07:23

So yeah, I was not just brutally ignored, but also included in the "everyone" list. Feels great.

EDIT: But anyway, I agree with Osman, mainly because that's exactly what I said :D

DragonOsman

2017-03-30, 08:09

I didn't mean to include you in "everyone," though. Sorry about that. I'll edit the post and fix that mistake.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 08:14

I thought you didn't see my post. :heh:
I am not actually angry, it's ok. At least you got the point!

DragonOsman

2017-03-30, 08:17

But I did see your post. So yeah, sorry.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 08:19

Ouu!(That was not a bark) :heh: It's okay man. :D

Sparda4

2017-03-30, 09:01

Well if we exclude their potencial and what they can do then i agree with the list. And to be fair Issei shouldn't even be there he's the "hero" of the story so of course we'll know almost everything about him.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 09:04

he's the "hero" of the story so of course we'll know almost everything about him.
@Sparda Wish that almost wasn't there, but the recent trend has us guessing Ise's powers.

Sparda4

2017-03-30, 09:15

I didn't say we're not going to guess what he's getting i'm saying we know everything on the HOW WHERE and WHEN about him getting stronger, not so much about the others, that's my point.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 09:19

I wasn't denying your point, I said wish we knew everything about him instead of almost everything. The Pseudo DxD thing especially pissed me off.

Sparda4

2017-03-30, 09:25

Little bit of suspense never killed anyone (unless they had a rope around their neck) be patient, and the pseudo DxD G thing was just a cheap way of Ishi ( this is MY opinion on it ) bypassing the SG device nerfing it and then setting up the stage for the fight with Indra and completing it on the spot so he can kick his ass.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 09:41

Yeah, okay. Well, the root cause was Ise not telling us Bina's identity, the pseudo thing wouldn't have affected me normally. The only way Ishi wasn't being cheap with the "-shi" thing would be to have even Ise in the dark about Bina's identity. I mean, maybe Ajuka and Grayfia planned to not let Ise know she was Grayfia and let Ise choose her based on her talent instead of as a liability like I previously said. That way, I will feel more connected to Ise. Otherwise, he seems like a changed friend. But ignore this, this ain't the right thread I guess, ps these are vol 23 spoilers :heh:

B214

2017-03-30, 11:21

@Everyone: Please look at the parts I've put in bold. The heck are you all doing rating them based on power? Krudelu's talking about who's more analyzable based on what we can know about them and their feats, not about who is stronger or more useful. Please read more carefully before commenting! Sheesh. Le sigh

Anyway, yeah, I agree with the list.

Edit: Okay, I didn't mean to include Katokateki in that "Everyone". So my bad there.

Which makes it even weirder that Xenovia is above Kiba who has shown that he can now absorb Holy Swords' aura don't you think. This feat alone makes it that Kiba has advantage against Holy Sword users. In fact in terms of analysable, Gasper is way easily analysable. He defeated a Longinus and in Volume 16 he covered an entire town with his darkness? How does that make it harder to analyse than Xenovia?

katokateki

2017-03-30, 11:28

Xenovia isn't above Kiba.

And the last line doesn't give Kiba an edge against Xenovia in this list for the reason you pointed in the second part, even if the feat gave him advantage against something else, we would still know more about Kiba's abilities and potential. It's like this, we aren't interested in how fast the car can go, but how accurately we can measure it's speed.

EDIT: By last line, I meant the last line before you added stuff.
Yeah, agreed on the stuff you added about Gasper. He has even shown us his future feats and development through EX. He shouldn't be below Xen at least.

DragonOsman

2017-03-30, 11:31

@B214: But, again, it's only a list for judging how much we know and can analyze about the people on the list. It's not meant to be judging their feats, powers or abilities themselves.

@Katokateki: Sparda4 is right about the suspense. But yeah, why did Ise call Bina "Bina-shi" when she' Grayfia whom he already knows well and calls "Grayfia-san"?

Edit: One post late.
Agreed with above post.

B214

2017-03-30, 11:33

Xenovia isn't above Kiba.

I just noticed this now. I guess i should apologise to Sparda for this part. :heh::heh: Sorry bro.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 11:44

@Osman Maybe my theory about him not knowing does apply here? I mean Ishi isn't a bad writer, we should have faith in him. I'm pretty sure Grayfia decided to hide her identity out of pride, so that she wasn't a liability to Ise as Sirzechs had entrusted her to him. Ajuka would have convinced Grayfia to join hs team and she would have set the condition. But it's just speculation.
And yeah, Sparda was right, I did get carried away thanks to the "shi" thing.

DragonOsman

2017-03-30, 11:53

Volume 22 mentioned that Ise knows who Bina is. So for now, let's assume he knows while maybe expecting for him to not actually know that it's Grayfia.

katokateki

2017-03-30, 11:57

Yeah OK. Cheap move, Ishi. :D

B214

2017-03-30, 12:31

Or maybe there's another Bina, and Grayfia is rotating with the other Bina for every game.

Yeah this sounds pretty desperate. :heh::heh:

Hakai

2017-03-30, 12:40

Or maybe there's another Bina, and Grayfia is rotating with the other Bina for every game.

Yeah this sounds pretty desperate. :heh::heh:

Bina is actually teen Grayfia from the past. She time traveled.

Parry999

2017-03-30, 13:27

What about Euclid daughter? Didn't holy eraser not work on real holy swords?

Krudelu

2017-03-30, 20:07

@katokateki and B214

When I made my placing for Gasper, I didn't factored in his future self from the EX sidestory. The reason for that is that we're not sure yet if the Gasper of the current timeline will definitely go towards that direction or not. So basically, what I included here is what we currently have for the current timeline's Gasper. This same goes for future Issei as well.

But by including his future self in the analysis, I think it'll be almost the same level as Xenovia in terms of being "analyzable."

As for Xenovia, she had enough analyzable feats that even some of them are powerscalable with proper basis on certain aspects so when I compared my finds for Xenovia compared to Gasper, I find Xenovia to be more "analyzable" though Gasper is close to Xenovia's level though not as close to each other as the ones I marked with asterisk.

This is just based on my experience on doing analysis for both of them.

I should of included this note in the initial post itself so I apologize for not getting this out earlier

Thanks for katokateki and DragonOsman for clarifying my post earlier for everyone

Also:
It's like this, we aren't interested in how fast the car can go, but how accurately we can measure it's speed.
Bingo

Just an extra and for fun also:heh:: If I were ever to tier them based on who's overall powerful based on their current feats (meaning what they've shown so far so having a certain power at their disposal that's not mastered currently won't be factored in at the moment (like Excalibur Ruler)), then my list would go something like this:
Issei
Gasper, Xenovia, Kiba
Rias, Akeno, Rossweisse
Koneko

Untiered: Asia

Also, when I did the analysis feat wise for the characters, I'm also factoring in outside RG just to be clear.

B214

2017-03-31, 01:24

Bina is actually teen Grayfia from the past. She time traveled.

Straight up desperate.

Bina is Sirzechs' illegitimate daughter with a female Dragon.

aw454wtr

2017-03-31, 03:16

Excalibur ruler is said to rule over all phenomena, it could rule over holy erase, kiba onnly managed to absorb replica excalibur which is has 4/7th power of the real true excalibur, which xenovia can further enhance by wrapping durandal aura with excalibur.

Kiba just does not have one massively powerful attack like Cross crisis, durandal canon

B214

2017-03-31, 04:27

Except Xenovia's compatibility with Excalibur Ruler isn't high.

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 05:50

Darksider555

2017-03-31, 06:40

That and also the fact that Xenovia is still trying to learn how to use it better (Ruler, that is). She did use it by reflex in a recent chapter of the LN, though. To try to keep tea from spilling to the floor.

@Krudelu: About your power-tier list in the spoiler tag: Are you sure Rias should be below Gasper, Xenovia and Kiba? With Extinguish Star and her over all power, I think she's stronger in terms of raw power. I could be wrong, though. [That and they're still training. Rias is Ultimate-class in terms of raw power thanks to the First Gen. Sun Wukong's training menu as evidenced in Volume 23 when she overpowered an Ultimate-class Devil on her own, but Kiba, Xenovia and Gasper probably are as well by now, at least lower-tier.]

Well in terms of raw power, Kiba is the least strongest. But his technique with his swords make up for it. While he has access to Gram (which is stated to be as powerful, if not more powerful than Durandal) and his other demonic swords, the fact is he can't use them without risk yet.

Balor Gasper is an absolute monster, with his time stopping abilities and darkness form.

Xenovia has very good feats with Durandal and given what we've seen with Strada, he potential his very great.

But to me it seems that in terms of power scaling, Demonic power & Magic lose out to Holy & Demonic swords which lose out to Sacred Gears.

Also who powerful do you think Irina is? She is stated to be a technique-type who is closer to a wizard-type. With her holy light and Hauteclere, she seems to be near Xenovia's level when she wielded Ex-Durandal at her peak.

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 07:07

Darksider555

2017-03-31, 07:28

Yeah, I think Irina is also very powerful. Isn't she also receiving the First Gen. Sun Wukong's training if I'm not mistaken (I probably am)?

Yeah, overall, Kiba might be as strong or stronger than Rias. But in terms of raw power, I think she's stronger. She's also probably in a greater of Ultimate-class than him if they're both Ultimate-class now.

I hope we get a confirmation, explicitly, of how strong they each are now compared to each other. Including Ise.

We just have to remember what the First Gen. Sun Wukong said before he started their training under him. He promised them that he'll make them all Ultimate-class.

Well, Rias was stated by Azazel to have the potential to become an Ultimate-class Devil simply by virtue of her talent as a Pure-blood high class devil.

“Let me say this first. What I’m going to tell you now is a training menu that focuses on things in the immediate future. There are people who produce good results immediately, but there are also those who have no choice but to look at things in the long run. However, you are all growing young people. Even if you mistake your direction, you will grow well. Now then, first is Rias, you.”

Buchou was the first one that Sensei called out to.

“From the beginning, you have been a high-spec devil with everything, including talent, physical ability and magic power. Even if you live normally as you currently are, those traits will rise and you’ll become a candidate for being a highest-grade devil when you become an adult. However, your wish is to become stronger than you would in that future, right?”

In Volume 2, Rasier stated that only Akeno was on par with his servants without any training. And Akeno and Rias have always been portrayed as equals in power.

Wow, it has turned into a serious situation! Game! So I will be participating in it as well! Raiser looks at me and then smirks. He then makes a smirk which pisses me off.

“Hey, Rias. Would the ones here be your servants?”

Buchou twitches her eyes at his words.

“So what?”

Raiser starts laughing after Buchou answers him as if he finds it amusing.

“Then this match will be a laugh. Only your [Queen], the “Priestess of Thunder” can fight on par with my adorable servants.”

In Volume 7, Kiba stated that he and Ise surpassed Rias and Akeno by training with their Balance Breakers. Before they had their Balance Breakers, they were the second weakest (Kiba) and weakest (Ise)

We transferred from the magic-circle located at my house and came here. It’s made quite specially, so apparently it won’t be sensed by terrorists.

It seems like High-class devils who participate in the Rating Game have similar places as well, and we, who are youth devils, received it as an exception.

It seems like the ones who have this exception within the youth devils are us and –Sairaorg-san’s team.

Other members also use this place quite often. This time we wanted to do this with just guys, so we are the only ones here right now.

“We are getting stronger, right…..?”

I ask Kiba while doing a squat.

“Of course. I know this is rude to say, but you and I have surpassed Buchou and Akeno-san. We probably can overwhelm average high-class devils now. But, we can’t let our guard down.”

So we know that they have improved but by how much the scaling has changed we don't know. When a SG user gets Balance Breaker they become a lot more powerful or versatile then a High class devil with Demonic power. Examples with Asia's Twilight Saint affection and Kiba's Sword of Betrayer.

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 07:42

Ise and Kiba surpassed Akeno and Rias, but there's no telling how strong they all are with the First Gen. Sun Wukong's training until we get a confirmation. You also admitted that here, kind of: So we know that they have improved but by how much the scaling has changed we don't know. Also, Ise is a monster in his own right. Rias can probably be said to also be a monster, just not as much as Ise, depending on how strong she got. Kiba's a monster as well; he's Ise's equal overall power, but weaker in terms of raw power.

I agree with what you're saying. I just think that at this point, Rias' peerage members are Ultimate-class Devils in terms of power, with Xenovia and Rose in Ise's also being at that level (though I'm not sure about Asia). I guess Ise and Kiba are stronger than Rias (Kiba overall, but not in terms of raw power - but his Balance Breaker makes a difference).

Darksider555

2017-03-31, 07:55

Ise and Kiba surpassed Akeno and Rias, but there's no telling how strong they all are with the First Gen. Sun Wukong's training until we get a confirmation. You also admitted that here, kind of: Also, Ise is a monster in his own right. Rias can probably be said to also be a monster, just not as much as Ise, depending on how strong she got. Kiba's a monster as well; he's Ise's equal overall power, but weaker in terms of raw power.

I agree with what you're saying. I just think that at this point, Rias' peerage members are Ultimate-class Devils in terms of power, with Xenovia and Rose in Ise's also being at that level (though I'm not sure about Asia). I guess Ise and Kiba are stronger than Rias (Kiba overall, but not in terms of raw power - but his Balance Breaker makes a difference).

It's kind of ironic that most of her/Ise's peerage is Ultimate class in power but not in title :eyespin:

By the way what do level do you think these characters are at:

Koneko
Kuroka
Ravel
Bova
Saji

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 08:12

I'm not sure. But Koneko and Kuroka are probably Mid-tier Ultimate-class or so? Ravel should also be at least low-tier Ultimate-class, though I'm not sure. Saji is also taking the training from the First Gen, and so are the rest of the people on that list except for Bova. It wouldn't be strange if they were all Ultimate-class already, though I'm not sure how strong Bova is.

And Rias is also Ultimate-class. She completely overpowered an Ultimate-class Devil by herself during a match in Volume 23 according to the spoilers. I'm just not sure what tier of Ultimate-class - but definitely below Ise and Kiba. Or maybe the same tier as them? Is that possible, I wonder?

Darksider555

2017-03-31, 08:38

Well Kuroka combined attack was ineffective against Ise when he unlocked Scale Mail. While Kuroka is stated to be powerful in comparison to other characters, her talents seem under-represented.

Koneko was stated to be the weakest member of the peerage post Volume 11, when everyone started training to keep up with Ise who had become the most powerful member of the peerage. While she has shown great skill with Senjutsu (thought still less skilled then her sister), her skill with Youjutsu is very weak. But Shirone Mode does make her very formidable with the power of purification. (Fun fact: Both Koneko and Irina have the power to purify)

I don't know if we can rank Ravel into Ultimate class given that we have only seen her fight in Vol. 21 and we haven't seen her train with her powers nearly as much as the ORC.

Bova is stated to be potential Dragon King class but that term is vague. So he is strong but we don't know how strong.

Saji should be mid-high tier Ultimate Class devil due to training enhancing him before to high class devil before he got Malebolge Vritra Promotion.

If Rias is Ultimate class doesn't that also mean that Akeno is Ultimate class as well since their equal in power? But while Akeno is focues on versatility, Rias is more focused on pure power to eliminate with the likes of her Extinguished Star.

katokateki

2017-03-31, 09:17

I have a feeling you guys are underestimating what Ultimate Class Devil means. I'm not gonna believe anybody other than Rias and Ise is Ultimate Class until I see some proofs. Ultimate class isn't a common thing, it approaches Maou class power(right?)! Diehauser, Grayfia, Vali and Raiser's bro are Ultimate Class, and we don't even know if they are mid-tier Ultimate Class or High. Especially the Ravel being Ultimate Class thing, are you sure? She has to be below Raiser, she's too young! And we haven't even seen her powers.

Also, Koneko a mid-tier Ultimate class? Will you consider Ise to be God class just because he can maintain that level of power output for 10 seconds? Actually, I'm not sure, you know better. :heh:

But anyway, @Krudelu, were you considering post vol 21 Rias and others in that list or was it still vol 21 level?

Hakai

2017-03-31, 09:39

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 10:03

Yeah, but even with the inconsistency, and with the First Gen. Sun Wukong's promise, I'm sure Ise and Rias are both Ultimate-class now. Actually, Rias and most, if not all, of her peerage should be Ultimate-class now.

@Katokateki: As you said, we don't know about Ravel's power that much. She hasn't shown enough for us to be able to judge her (heck, she hasn't shown us anything). So we don't know how strong she is.

Koneko in Shirone-mode should be really powerful. But how should we rate Asia? She's more of a support-type (not just in Rating Game terms). So it's hard to judge her power.

But yeah, Ise can only maintain DxD G mode for 10 seconds the moment he uses ∞ Blaster (normally it's 10 minutes or so, but using power for offense or defense will reduce it and using that particular attack makes it last for the least amount of time), so he isn't Dragon God level yet. Probably low-tier God-class at best. So maybe near Heavenly Dragon-class?

anifreik

2017-03-31, 11:16

Vol 21 Life 2

Ravel also joined the battle (she didn’t listen to me this time, and followed us over), as she spread her wings of fire open and sent out fierce flamethrowers. Her collaboration with Koenko-chan could be described as perfect. Kiba was the vanguard, Koneko-chan was the rearguard, and Ravel also matched them brilliantly as support.

Ravel-chan doesn't seem to do too bad...

@Osman So if Ise uses ∞ Blaster for 5 seconds, he should still be able to maintain DxD G for 5 minutes, right? Seems like each second of Blaster uses one minute of stamina.

Sparda4

2017-03-31, 11:33

This is scale mail all over again, just doing ANYTHING in the armor reduces the timer. GREAT just perfect, hoped i wouldn't see that mechanic ever again.

Hakai

2017-03-31, 11:36

Three minutes not ten
Although my Pseudo-Dragon Deification can utilise an incredible amount of power, it has a time limit. I can maintain the transformation for three minutes, but if I convert that to perform attacks or switch to defence, then the transformation time limit will be reduced. A cannon blast at maximum firepower — if I use ∞ Blaster, the time limit will be reduced even further. From the moment that the bombardment began, a ten second countdown also began, and once it reached zero, Pseudo-Dragon Deification was forcibly lifted

Parry999

2017-03-31, 13:02

Hakai

2017-03-31, 13:10

Cao cao thought traina issei in volume 9 was stronger then begin of show juggernaut drive vali. :uhoh:
"How terrifying. In terms of direct offensive power, this rivals Vali without Juggernaut. No, Vali is improving every day, I wonder how he is now..."
Without JD actually, and in pure offensive power only. Triaina is very stamina consuming while Vali can maintain his balance breaker state for a month.

But yes, even considering all that that's very impressive, it's Vali after all.

Krudelu

2017-03-31, 13:13

High class level goes from V2 Ise without Balance Breaker to initial CCQ Ise.

The ultimate-class category could be(and probably is) just as wide.

And no Maou-class is portrayed to be considerably above regular ultimate-class.

With that said Ishibumi is inconsistent as f**k with all these "classes" so I don't like getting in debate about it.

Amen. This is why I never ever rely on class categories at all especially when it's just from statements in terms of analyzing until it's backed up done by series showing it. Though it's sometime nice to keep in mind but that doesn't mean that it will be a real factor that determines their strength.

@DragonOsman As for my incomplete powertier list, the list also factor in utility so it isn't just about raw power. Rias may have higher raw power compared to the 3 but the reason I placed Rias under Gasper, Xenovia, and Kiba is that the way that she is a glass cannon is not in a good way especially the way to get her strongest move out.

Remember that my list just factored in their individual strengths so no pairup moves included (like Dragonar).

By the way the list is still based up to volume 21

Also, I'll have to wait for the new volumes to come in before I can confirm how strong Rias has gotten by volumes 22-23 outside statements alone.

@katokateki yep it's still based up to volume 21

Guys when I made my powertier list, it was based on analyzing the characters' extent of their abilities, doing calculations to get a proper approximates especially when dealing with numbers, and/or getting proper approximates given the in-series feats. Remember that what i'm factoring in here are feats and analysis using the events that happens in the ongoing series itself and statements that have strong backups to them (especially when the ongoing event is the backup itself). Statements alone and class categories are just not enough.

As for Irina, as far as I'm concerned, she's also just as hard to analyze as Rias and the rest that was as hard as her.

Parry999

2017-03-31, 13:17

Without JD actually, and in pure offensive power only. Triaina is very stamina consuming while Vali can maintain his balance breaker state for a month.

But yes, even considering all that that's very impressive, it's Vali after all. I forgot that part its been like 3 years. How strong is vali know then he easily beat an cadre beginning of show.:eyespin:

Darksider555

2017-03-31, 13:21

I forgot that part its been like 3 years. How strong vali know then he easily beat an cadre beginning of show.:eyespin:

Crazy to think how much everyone has changed and improved.

I wonder what Raynare's reaction to current Ise would be?

Parry999

2017-03-31, 13:22

She probably go have my baby's.

DragonOsman

2017-03-31, 14:08

It's been only one year since the start of the series until now, in the story, actually. So Ise and the others who were with Rias since the start of the series improved that much within just one year. And that also includes Rias and Akeno since they were also training whenever they had time.

@Krudelu: So you haven't read Volume 22 or the Volume 23 spoilers yet? You don't know that Rias' team fought an Ultimate-class Devil's team in Volume 23 and she easily overpowered the King all by herself? And that's already a known feat, isn't it?

The statements are also factored in. They aren't completely useless.

@Hakaishin: Yeah, thanks for the correction.

So normally Pseudo-Dragon Deification lasts for 3 minutes, and the moment he uses ∞ Blaster, the 10 second countdown starts and the armor reverts back to the True Queen form once the 10 seconds are up.

Krudelu

2017-04-01, 19:28

@Krudelu: So you haven't read Volume 22 or the Volume 23 spoilers yet? You don't know that Rias' team fought an Ultimate-class Devil's team in Volume 23 and she easily overpowered the King all by herself? And that's already a known feat, isn't it?

The statements are also factored in. They aren't completely useless.

That's why I mentioned that my list is still based up to volume 21. I thought that maybe everyone would have know that I only read up to volume 21 after saying it in my most analyzable tier list post when I made a different type of list. I should of repeated myself so I apologize.

I haven't read Volume 22 since I've been waiting for the entire volume to be translated. From the time I posted this, seems like the only chapter that wasn't translated is New Life so I might read it soon.

When I do my analysis on feats, remember that when I analyze them, I tend to make sure that I read the volumes itself if I will factor in the new volumes before I do it. Remember that I don't always rely on spoilers much.

As for the statements, they actually depend. I'm not saying that they are completely useless but I would say that sometimes it's hard to determine their reliability.

If you remember what I mentioned in one of my posts:
What would be factored in here is feats and analysis using the events that happens in the ongoing series itself and statements that have strong backups to them (especially when the ongoing event is the backup itself). Statements alone and class categories won't be factored much since those are not enough to get proper approximates though it's pretty good to keep it in mind.

So basically I factor in statements as long as there's proper backups to them. If they don't have proper backups, then not as much.

For the statements, just in case, what I meant here is character statements.

As for Rias beating an Ultimate Class by Volume 23, sure it's something to keep in mind but its better to wait until it gets translated so I can get better details on their fight. For now, I'm not sure how impressive this King is. Her beating that King may be a feat itself but we have to take into account how impressive is the King himself and the fight itself to figure out how impressive is the feat itself.

So for the powertier list (and most analyzable list) I posted, consider it as "version Volume 21." I may make the updated version of my personal list once I can get to read the recent volumes. Remember that my lists are still prone to changes as long as the series is still ongoing due to being updated. When the series ends is the time when it'll be easier to set in stone and the only thing that would cause it to change by that point would be when there are more proper finds given what's available in the source materials.

And this is not an April Fools joke post:heh:. Saying this just in case:heh:.

DragonOsman

2017-04-02, 03:50

Team Defan already did an April Fool's joke with the SAO translation. Everyone was fooled good. :heh:

Anyway, yeah, good point about waiting until the match Rias has with that team is translated.

Krudelu

2017-10-16, 13:55

Just for fun due to my boredom:heh:

I know that I made a list of who's analyzable. This one would be a bit different.

Given how we know who had more data, this time it's going to be my personal list on who's more usable for crossover matchup discussion. This could also be considered as who's the easiest to use for crossover matchup discussion, meaning who's easier to debate with. Not who's easier to win with.

Note that this is not a "tier list of who's the strongest among the roster" or "tier list of who's the most useful among the roster" list.

While the last time the roster is based on the original Occult Research Club, this time, the roster will consist of as much named characters as I could think of. Right now, I only included the ones that are easier to notice so feel free to remind me of who's notable I may have missed. I will not include the ones not worth mentioning like the characters from Riser's peerage or fodders.

Sorry if I ended up with a huge list but I just made the roster more open I guess.

Anyway, here it is

Really Usable: These the character have a lot of analyzable data and/or feats that they could be used for the crossover matchup discussion almost without issues
Issei

Usable: These are the characters that have nice amount of analyzable data and/or feats to be used for crossover matchup discussions while there may be a little bit of issues due to lacking little specific details
Sairaorg
Vali

Usable Enough: These are the characters that have good amount of analyzable data and/or feats to be used for crossover matchup discussions but there are some aspects that may be shaky due to maybe lacking of specific data on just a few
Kiba
Rizevim
Bedeze
Apophis
Xenovia
Azi Dahaka
Cao Cao

Kind of Usable: These characters may have nice amount of analyzable data and/or feats to be used for crossover matchup discussions but they might be shaky almost half of the time or less
Gasper
Saji
Strada
Grendel
Dulio
Barakiel
Crom
Euclid
Rias
Sirzech
Tobio

Hard to Use: These characters may have some analyzable data and/or feats to be used for crossover matchup discussions but they lack in number of detailed ones which can make them shaky about half the time or more
Akeno
Koneko
Rossweisse
Riser
Loki
Azazel
Kokabiel
Irina
Arthur
Kuroka
Ravel
Asia

Nigh-Unusable: These characters may have a little analyzable data and/or feats to be used for for crossover matchup discussions but they are really low on data, which makes them next to impossible to be used for debates
Trihexa
Diehauser
Tannin
Bikou
Bennia
Sona
Tsubaki
Le Fay
First Gen. Sun Wukong
Ajuka
Serafall
Michael
Fenrir

Unusable: They may have somewhat of a gaugable strength through statements but lack showing, which make them unusable at the moment
Ophis
Great Red
Most Gods

Remember that while it's somewhat in order, some of them may be really close to each other in terms of usability especially as the usability starts to get less starting about midway of "Hard to use" level. Also, note that the characters that are placed at the very top or bottom of their respective tiers for "usable enough" to "nigh-unusable" tiers tend to be at borderline (For example, Gasper could be at a borderline between Usable enough and Kind of Usable but leans more towards Kind of Usable). Remember that this list is just my opinion based on my experience on trying to gather as much data as I could for each one of them

Note that this is just up until the current translation so it's prone to changes in the future. Also, there may be changes as I discover more things. it's a pretty big list after all.

Also, sorry about my section naming convention on this one.

What are you guys' thought on this? Do you guys have your own tier list on who's the "most usable"? Feel free to discuss though be prepared to be asked or challenged especially for details, which could be also a wake-up call to me as well :heh:

Lucidrago

2017-10-16, 14:54

Yeah besides Issei, Vali, Sairaorg, Kiba, and maybe Saji Ishibumi really doesn't show off the others as much. If they're badass like Dulio and Tobio, then he's going to have them be badass offscreen like Dulio vs Crom Cruach in Volume 18. Or just shows off a little of their immense power like in Volume 21 against the enemy's minions. Besides those five that I listed, he doesn't show off anyone else because he deems them unimportant and is basically telling us they're already strong enough and don't need any big moments. Ishibumi rarely shows off their power and just mentions their power in passing. I swear he gave Vasco Strada way more attention in Volume 19 than he did 80% of the cast. That kind of didn't sit right with me in a way. I know that Vasco Strada is OP but seriously?

So your list is scarily accurate.

DragonOsman

2017-10-16, 18:31

Rias's feats are also aren't detailed enough like Krudelu showed in his list. Don't start about the whole "King" business again here. But she does need more details on her feats. Not as a King but as a character who is known to be very powerful. She needs to show off her peerage in Rating Games and in this tournament, but she could shine herself and have detailed feats at other times as well.

But yeah, I do agree with you two. Ise's the most usable one here, followed by Sairaorg and Vali. It's a solid list.

Lucidrago

2017-10-16, 20:12

Parry999

2017-10-16, 21:07

What makes it even more disappointing - kokabiel said, Rias had talent on par with her brothers base. She had potential above kiba. Ishibumi didn't do anything with it.

syzorst

2017-10-16, 23:05

She has immense demonic power reserves and the Power of Destruction and she has the potential to become a top-class devil(most likely Satan-class). Those are her feats. She has a natural talent with her demonic powers that few devils could hope to match. Those are her feats. Ishibumi is basically just telling us that she's powerful enough. Rias and her group are monsters after all. When Rias has powerful servants like Issei, Kiba, or Gasper then you aren't going to see her in action a lot. Because in Rias' case, she's not stronger than all of her servants which is the typical case for a regular peerage.

Dude that's not enough. Simply saying she has talent is not enough when you don't exploit is well enough. She has high demonic power because she's a high class devil but you could say the same about most high class devils because they're born with exceptional of demonic power like Riser and Sona and they too have been regarded of being talented. The question is what set Rias apart from them. She has the Power of Destruction but does that put her in a higher league from other high class devils? No, but devils like Riser and Sairorg are stronger than her with Sona being slightly weaker power wise but have better demonic control.

Krudelu

2017-10-16, 23:16

We know that not everyone is showed off but this list is made based on how much we can get out of them despite the limitations. Heck, some of them only fought once throughout the series currently and yet I was able to get good amount of data off of them (Bedeze, Apophis, and Azi Dahaka)

Volume 19 seems to be more about showing off Durandal's potential so I guess I can understand why he gave Strada more attention.

As for Rias
-Immense demonic power reserves
-PoD
-Potential to become a top-class
-Natural talent that few devils could hope to match

These may be feats but they lean more towards potential rather than feats on top of these being as good as vague

I'll explain:
-Immense demonic power reserves: She have it but do we know exactly by how much?
-PoD: yes we know it's properties but how's it's potency exactly or to what extent?
-Potential to become a top-class: She could be but which top-class?
-Natural talent that few devils could hope to match: yes she has it but do we know to what extent?

This is some of the signs of lack of showings

An example of detailed feat from her would be something like this:
-Though it left half of his head, Extinguish Star is still capable of obliterating most of Grendel's body: With this, it can give us an estimate on how strong it's destructive power is exactly.
-We know that she's a lightning timer if she can keep up with Akeno's lightning

And there are things that are questionable:
-Can she CQC very well outside Dragonar? If so, how efficiently? What's her battle tactics if she can ever CQC?
-If she can't CQC, can she at least deal with someone if they get close to her?
-Any other battle tactics she uses if she end up having to fight herself?
-What kinds of opponents did she deal with so far individually?
--Were they difficult for her due to them being more powerful than her in terms of potency, speed, and/or toughness?
--Were they difficult because of the way they fight?
--Was she able to deal with those specific conditions? If so, how was she able to?

Overall, this is why she gets the placing of "Kind of Usable" while being closer to "Hard to Use." Heck, I was thinking earlier whether I should put Euclid above her in terms of usability. Yes, we understand that she's low on showings, hence the reason for her placing.

Just a reminder that this is a list of who's usable in crossover matchup discussions, which means that it's not only limited to just in-series. This extends to vs debates. I'm just putting this up just in case.
(And please don't start a vs debate yet. The point of the list is to figure out who's usable so we can discuss who have good amount of feats and who's good to go when it comes to such discussion)

Also, remember that in a crossover matchup discussion, in terms of feats, it's important that they are more analyzable and can be estimated than being vague. Things like "classes" are hardly applicable since they don't tell us the extent of the individual abilities so this is one of those "vague" elements. After all, each individual varies in strengths and weaknesses.

Also, going with just overall power while not expanding anything further than that is a little bit more unreliable when the goal here is to be more accurate on analysis. I tend to break them down in terms of analyzing them to figure out their overall pros and cons, which sums up to individual's "overall power"

EDIT: Just finished the parts I forgot to finish

Parry999

2017-10-16, 23:47

She's not even as smart a leader as Sona or Seek-chan. Cao Cao lead her team better then her two. Hell by this point Ravel is a better tactician then her.

syzorst

2017-10-17, 01:48

She's not even as smart a leader as Sona or Seek-chan. Cao Cao lead her team better then her two. Hell by this point Ravel is a better tactician then her.

Ravel is definitely one of the best tacticians which is very impressive for her age. She manage to beat Sona in tactics which is something Rias can't do. The things about Rias is she relies more on power and tries to overpower her enemies.

Lucidrago

2017-10-17, 03:28

Rias is very strong and very talented even for a high-class devil. That's all we need to know. And her job isn't showing off and being a badass. Her job is to allow her servants to show off and be a badass. You complain about Rias not being able to show off. Because Ishibumi has already defined her role in the story. She showed off by having OP servants that would make even a Maou/Satan jealous. Yes she isn't as smart as Sona or Seekvaira. Yes she isn't as insanely OP as Issei or Sairaorg. But she has showed off in her own way. How many devils do you think can have a peerage as powerful as Rias'?

Rias is the leader. Her power doesn't need to be displayed because we already know how strong she is. She doesn't need to show off because she kind of already has. Now you guys can think about that all you want but Rias is unique in her own way and doesn't need her power fully detailed in this series. She has a lot of talent for a high-class devil that will most likely allow her to become a Satan-class devil in the future.

DragonOsman

2017-10-17, 06:38

@Lucidrago, dude, please understand what we're trying to say here. Yes, we know she's very powerful and may even have the potential to reach Satan-class in power. Or at least Ultimate-class without really being Satan-class. But what we're saying is that we don't know how strong she currently is exactly. Would she have been able to beat that unnamed Ultimate-class King if Crom Cruach hadn't already injured him? How strong is that unnamed Ultimate-class guy exactly? Is Rias really Ultimate-class already, or is she just at the high-tier of High-class where she can deal with at least low-tier Ultimate-class Devils? You can make guesses and speculations about the answers to those questions all you want, but the point here is that we don't have enough information to say for sure one way or the other on any of that. That's what we mean when we say she lacks showings and detailed feats. Saying that she has the potential to be Ultimate-class or that she has lots of Demonic Power isn't enough. Those aren't really feats, they're just statements and potential. Potential =/= feats, and statements aren't as reliable as feats.

She may be a King, but even a King has times when he has to fight someone one-on-one. Think about it. Do we know if Rias can hold her own in a fight against a powerful opponent King one-on-one? We don't have detailed enough feats to be able to tell. When she fought Sairaorg in Volume 10, she lost. Badly. Is she at a level now where she can beat him or at least last longer than before? We don't know.

Krudelu

2017-10-17, 07:34

It's fine if she doesn't get to 1v1 as often and it's alright if she's really low on number of her own battles but the initial problem here is that whenever she gets to have her own battles, which is where it could be a good opportunity for her to have a detailed battle, is where it lacks detail, resulting in lack of showings and confirmed information.

One of the examples of those opportunities is Rias vs Sona. It is one of those rare opportunities where a detailed fights on her own could be applied but instead we get as good as "both sides throw their projectiles at the same time" then boom the winner is decided. Sure we see how Sona was able to block PoD but after that? It's that "throw each other projectiles then boom winner is decided" kind of transition. The problem is did we know if some PoD just went through some Sona's water projectiles? Did some of them cancelled each other out? Did they shoot another round of them? Did they do other things and show more of their attacks? Any individual tactics they did during that 1v1? We don't know.

There are others that even have less battles than her. Heck, some of them only have just ONE battle throughout the series and yet they have better analyzable feats and that's because of how detailed the fight they were involved at in their limited times.

@DragonOsman Just a correction, she fought Regulus in volume 10, not Sairaorg

DragonOsman

2017-10-17, 07:44

Yeah, Regulus. My bad there. But we should be able to tell as well that, at that point, she couldn't have won against Sairaorg either.

But yeah, I do agree with you.

Rias will have to fight strong opponents in real battles as well, and she has to be strong enough to win those battles.

We know that she isn't strong enough to beat Apophis or Azi Dahaka. But we don't know how long she'd last or how well she'd do. Because we don't have any detailed feats of her to tell from.

Also, Deihauser, her, Ise, and some other Kings are Power-types or at least strong enough to match Power-types while not being Power-types themselves. They have to be able to do well in one-on-one fights against powerful opponents and even win, in real battle scenarios especially and also sometimes in Rating Games. But Rias hasn't shown that she can do that. Ise has, to some extent.

The thing about Rias being a King isn't a good enough excuse for her not having enough showings or feats. Anyone should be able to tell why. So that's why, Lucidrago, please stop bringing that up here because she does need to fight in real battles as well. She's a member of Team DxD and she's also a Power-type fighter. Understand?

Sparda4

2017-10-17, 12:18

Here's a crossover i'd like to hear thoughts on. Kiba vs Daud (Dishonored series)

I'll list Dauds powers here with a description of them

Blink allows Daud to rapidly traverse mid-sized distances in an instant, with Daud being able to stop time while aiming.

Void Gaze allows him to see creaturesand key objects through walls, as well as detecting bone charms and runes.

Bend Time allows Daud to temporarily slow or stop time, during which he may move unhindered.

Pull (tethering) allows Daud to lift and manipulate objects and bodies from afar. It can also keep an opponent in place.

These are powers he can used as often and as long as he wants (in gameplay in the dlc it's not true for "balancing" as a boss in the main game he can do what is stated above).

He is also a master swordsman and marksman(using a wristbow with many types of bolts) and a well known assassin called "The Knife of Dunwall".

Now that you Daud's feats are out of the way. Thoughts ? Who would win in a straight duel between the two ?

Edit: I forgot to mention he is not the type to abuse his powers he wants a fair fight as much as possible(Daud)

Krudelu

2017-10-17, 13:01

Okay let's calm down for a bit

Rias was able fight in real battles but they just tend to happen off screen or not detailed enough though some of them are as good as taking out fodders. I mean group battles are counted as real battles too, which she's in for good amounts of them.

Overall, currently, Rias is just kind of shaky at best when used for debates. Right now, it's easy to default to using "classes" on top of vague factors when it comes to figuring out if she'll ever be a match or not or figuring out what are the possible results.

And just to fan the flames:heh: (we really need an evil laugh smiles/emoticon for this site:heh:)
Here's the challenge for anyone who wish to try
Now here's the challenge for anyone who wish to try:

Come up with someone to matchup against Rias outside Dragonar. It could be:
From in-series if you feel like playing on easy or normal mode. It must be someone she hasn't faced before. If using the character is someone she fought before, it must be the improved version compared to the version she already faced before
-OR-
As a crossover versus discussion if you want an actual challenge. Just be aware that you'll need to analyze and factor things A LOT MORE that what you'll usually do for in-series.

TIP(s) for suggestion:
1. Try not to make the matchup look like an obvious stomp as much as you could (like how you can tell just by the character used especially from the well known ones (like DBZ)).
2. It's alright if the suggestion is the one that's hard to determine if it's going to be a stomp but ended up figuring out it's a stomp in the end after a thorough analysis as long as the suggestion's stomp is not too obvious just by looking at the suggested matchup.
3. Try to make the the suggestion as even as possible

RULES FOR BOTH PATHS
1. No preparation time for both sides

If you take the crossover versus discussion path
RULES
1. Both side have no canon knowledge of each other.
2. State whether the win condition is kiling the opponent (It's going to be hard to KO with PoD after all)
3. State which versions are being used (like at what point of the series, which mode, etc)
4. State of mind: in character, but willing to kill

And now here's the main meat of the challenge
1. Analyze both of the characters as thorough as possible

2. Try to make breakdowns for each character. This also includes:
-The extent of their abilities
-Detailed feats and showings

3. Figure out the outcome of the matchup as thorough as possible. Also, explain how did you get to such outcome as thorough as possible

4. Include proofs as much as possible
-This can take in a for of quotes. When including this, please state which volume and chapter did the quote came from

TIP:
-Expect to be challenged by others on your analysis so make your points as solid as possible.
-Try not to be vague on your details. This helps solidify your points.

Trying to end the debate with things like "why would they fight?" or concluding with something like "they joined together and do stuff" are not allowed

And let's try to be civil on this type of discussion by debating more about the matchup than bickering about who's the "better character character wise" out of the two.

Anyway, good luck and have fun:heh:

EDIT: I almost double posted for the next reply

Here's a crossover i'd like to hear thoughts on. Kiba vs Daud (Dishonored series)

I'll list Dauds powers here with a description of them

Blink allows Daud to rapidly traverse mid-sized distances in an instant, with Daud being able to stop time while aiming.

Void Gaze allows him to see creaturesand key objects through walls, as well as detecting bone charms and runes.

Bend Time allows Daud to temporarily slow or stop time, during which he may move unhindered.

Pull (tethering) allows Daud to lift and manipulate objects and bodies from afar. It can also keep an opponent in place.

These are powers he can used as often and as long as he wants (in gameplay in the dlc it's not true for "balancing" as a boss in the main game he can do what is stated above).

He is also a master swordsman and marksman(using a wristbow with many types of bolts) and a well known assassin called "The Knife of Dunwall".

Now that you Daud's feats are out of the way. Thoughts ? Who would win in a straight duel between the two ?

Edit: I forgot to mention he is not the type to abuse his powers he wants a fair fight as much as possible(Daud)
About Daud (since I never played Dishonored), I got some questions
Are some of these abilities applied in gameplay only? Or he used it in cutscenes too?

Is his time manipulation affects his surrounding like if the time is slowed or stopped, everything that have ongoing inertia around them like falling rocks would be stopped?
Because if it is, I doubt Kiba's SG would save him from that kind of time manipulation

About slowing time, is it for himself that he seems fast in real time? If so, how potent? Do you know if it slow it enough for him to keep up with lightning?
Remember that anyone that have a little bit lower speed than Kiba are already lightning timers

Using game characters could be really difficult is a crossover matchup

Sparda4

2017-10-17, 13:40

Bend Time can freeze time in the area,andobjects(bullets bolts ect) and people around him but if they are supernatural then time will not freeze for them. He has used them in cutscenes and in gameplay. And he moves at the same speed as he normally can he only seems fast to others while he uses Bend Time and it stays active for 30s to a minute. Blink however allows him to "teleport" mid range distances and stop everything but can't attack because he needs to "hold" the ability.

Edit: He has the ability of Summon Assassin but going for a 1 vs 1 i did not include that.

Krudelu

2017-10-17, 14:06

In his verse, what kind of supernaturals do they have? And any factors to include as to why Bend Time doesn't work on them?

Kiba might be supernatural himself due to being a devil but we cannot just assume that he'll have the same immunity as the supernaturals in Daud's verse.

And I know that he moves like normal while everything seems like time is slow while for others may seem like he's going fast since he's the user of the ability but is his slow time able to allow him to keep up with something as fast as lightning?

And if he can stop time, can he cause damage to his opponent? If it can, does he do it usually?
Because if he can cause damage in time stop and he does this fair amount of thimes, then he takes this one provided that Kiba doesn't have immunity to Bend Time's time stop

Also, how's his own combat speed outside Bend Time? Because if he cannot be at least lightning speed, then Kiba blitzes. This is just in case that Kiba might be immune to Bend Time's time stop.

I'll deal with Kiba's durability once this time stop part is dealt with

Yea, as powerful as time manipulation abilities are, they could be a pain in the ass depending on the rules they have on them:heh:

Sparda4

2017-10-17, 14:17

In Bend Time he can hurt you with a blade(a normal knife) and his reflexes are just a little bit better then a normal humans. And the only supernatural beings in Daud's world are the ones touched by the outsiders mark(Daud included) or individuals who have relics from the void or have bone charms that grant powers however bone charms like that self destruct very quickly.

Krudelu

2017-10-17, 15:45

Then that means Bend Time might work on Kiba since the actual time stop immunity for it is applicable only to the ones with the outsiders mark (unless he get's pitted to a character that have actual immunity to any form of time stop).

I know that some people out there will start bringing up him resisting Gasper's time stop in volume 4 but back then, Gasper's time stop is as good as stopping individual's time instead of the space itself on the top of it not being as powerful as it might be now.

I said that it didn't seem to stop space at volume 4 since by the time Issei cut his right palm to have his blood on Ascalon, his time stop is still active and yet the blood didn't got suspended in the air when it was flowing out of his right hand.

Also, another proof that his time stop doesn't stop space even by somewhere between volume 5-6

From Volume 13 life 2
FLASH! A red light comes out from the box, and then the ominous bird carrying Abe-senpai’s dad stops its movement.

FALL…..

Abe-senpai’s dad and the ominous bird fall down. Below them…..is Takahashi-san!

Wait, it’s not frozen in the air even when it was stopped by Gasper’s power!? I thought this guy’s power would stop anything exactly where it is, even in mid-air!

Is it because Gasper’s power is changing, or is it because he couldn’t make that man and the ominous bird remain in the air?

Abe-senpai’s dad and the ominous bird crash down!
Remember that Volume 13 Life 2 takes place at least after volume 5

I wonder if Kiba would have time stop resistance strong enough to resist 30 years later Gasper's time stop, which also affects space as well. Guess the absoluteness of his time stop depends on his own extent of power.

At the moment, it seems that Kiba's only experience in time stop is at volume 4. And at least going by statements, EX Gasper said
“If there is someone who can move in this time-frozen world of mine, it would be only those who have my permission, Gods and transcendental beings (Super Devils), the new generation Satans, and those who are equal to the Two Heavenly Dragons.”
Seems that only these specific kind of people are able to move in his time stop so it seems that maybe he can stop most SG and Holy Sword users (if not all of them).

And according to Bend Time's description, it can stop space as well.

Now this is getting problematic. So far, there's no feat regarding time stop resistance right after volume 4 on the top of time stop potency depends on Forbidden Balor View's user.

Guess it's time to separate this to 2 scenarios

-If Bend Time, which freeze space as well, is strong enough that it works on Kiba, the Daud would get in free hits if it doesn't do Kiba good in a hit or 3.

-If Kiba still have resistance to even time stop that freeze space itself or Bend Time is not as strong as EX Gasper's, then Kiba blitzes

Sparda4

2017-10-17, 16:36

So if Kiba can resist Bend time he wins then huh ? Well from what i can gather the only one in the games that outclasses Daud in the ability to stop time is The Outsider himself because he stops and transports you into the void itself(he's kinda a god figure but not at the same time).

So this matchup's ending depends on who has the subtle advantage.

DragonOsman

2017-10-17, 17:17

I haven't played that game, either, so I'll just agree with Krudelu for now.

About Rias. In team-based real battles, she'd still be able to hold her own (until someone singled her out and attacked her alone, at a situation where no one is able to help her). But my point still stands for one-on-one battles where she's alone against someone as strong as or stronger than her. She needs to be strong enough to hold her own in those fights. Because in those cases, the excuse of her being a King won't cut it because that only holds in Rating Games. And even in Rating Games, there are still times when the King has to go alone.

And yeah, right now the only thing we can do when it comes to using her a for a vs. debate is default to "classes". And even then, we don't know for sure if she's really a Ultimate-class or not.

Lucidrago

2017-10-17, 18:53

Rias can easily hold her own. I don't know why you guys are wracking your brains so much over this.

Parry999

2017-10-17, 21:36

Rias can easily hold her own. I don't know why you guys are wracking your brains so much over this.
Hmmm bruh even Akeno has better feats in one on one battles.

Lucidrago

2017-10-18, 00:26

Name any one-on-one battles with Rias that have been shown. Rias from the very beginning was already established as a really powerful devil and had nothing to improve on when it came to power. Her development came about in being a king and her relationship with Issei. When it came to her strength, it's not a main issue because Rias is fine when it comes to her strength. So there's really no need to show off her power or strength in Ishibumi's view because Rias is already pretty perfect when it comes to her strength as a devil. Azazel even told Rias that she already had everything down in Volume 5 and that she just needed to carry on as she usually did. So really there's no need for Ishibumi to show off Rias in that regard. There's two things he had to improve and show off when it came to Rias. Her being a king and her relationship with Issei. In Ishibumi's mind Rias doesn't need to show off her power because she's already established as a powerful devil and there are other parts of her character that he can put his attention towards.

Gaizafaiz

2017-10-18, 01:15

@Lucidrago It's true that she's powerful, but what we want to know(or at least me) is her one-on-one fighting experience. What will she do if she ever get involve in a one-on-one situation. Lets say if she were to involve in a one-on-one battle, the opponent is someone who has the same power as her (same demonic power, POD, whatever) but the only difference is that the opponent has more experienced in one-on-one battle(detailed and analyzed) than her, who will win? The opponent, obiously. Because the opponent was given a chance to shine and show her/his skill during fights compared to Rias who is just stated to be powerful and one-shotting things.

Krudelu

2017-10-18, 01:45

@Sparda4
Unless Daud himself could actually keep up with something as fast as lightning with either his slow time or outside his time manipulation (aka just by himself). This is why I was actually asking this to figure out whether it's a blitz or not.

Right now, I may need an answer to this before the deal is sealed: Was Daud actually capable of keeping up with someone as fast as lightning via slow time or outside time manipulation? Or he's only shown to react to bullets only? Anything faster he dealt with?

At the moment, the advantage actually comes down whether time stop works or not until the above question is answered.

Right now, the only reason why Kiba gets this if he can resist time stop is due to his massive speed advantage. But THAT'S IF he can resist it.

Because if Daud could actually keep up with such speed outside time stop, then this match might be even, which will require to move on to discussing another aspect (their battle habits and skills probably) to figure out the outcome.

Also, just in case, how's Daud's durability? just wanted to know so I might be able to tell how many blows he might survive or if Gram will be needed.

Pardon me for being a bit persistent on the questions since I don't just set the final answer easily until certain questions are answered especially if one side is where I lack knowledge of.

At least this is kind of interesting since it made me touch upon the time manipulation aspect (on top of getting to talk about Gasper for a little bit despite he's not the main subject as a bonus):heh:
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And as for Rias, we know that she can hold on her own but do we know how strong can she hold her own against? She could be strong but there's a benchmark on how strong she is. And the problem is we don't have any showings or feats to tell that specific benchmark other than just through "class," which is just vague. So far, she can one-shot fodders but can she do the same on other characters that have detailed parameters?

And sure, in Ishibumi's mind, he may not need to have Rias "show off" of her powers and keep her fights lacking detailed because she's established as a powerful devil, which are just through statements in the end, but that won't change the fact that she lacked showings which in the end can make figuring out her specific benchmark still have room for doubts.

And Akeno is just the same as Rias in terms of low on feats and showings. Maybe the only heads up Akeno have over Rias is that she demonstrated more applications of her powers but when it comes to feats, they almost have about the same amount.

@Gaizafaiz Being high on showings doesn't automatically make them win. If anything, The one with the low showings just becomes really difficulty to debate with and the analysis becomes really harder to the point that it may be nigh-impossible to get answers. I can see why you may think that The one with more showings will win more since the one with low on showings is hard to be sure of that it would be better to use whatever they demonstrated so far

But if Rias ended up in 1v1 in series itself and the fight finally became detailed whether she wins or lose(unless some BS got mixed in somehow), then that would be a new showing from her especially if it involves a lot of things.

Gaizafaiz

2017-10-18, 02:02

@Krudelu My bad on that part. It's true that it's hard fighting someone who has not shown her skills, but usually someone who has more experience in one-on-one fight has more tactics/strategy to be used and is more well prepared than those who lack in fighting. Good tactics can overwhelm an opponent. In this case, a person who has more fighting experience can easily formulate tactics to overwhelm an inexperienced person.

Krudelu

2017-10-18, 02:22

Actually, what I meant by the ones low on showing being harder to debate with is that it will be harder to be sure of them.

But yeah, I agree that the ones with more experience in 1v1 would have better upper hand in 1v1 situations.

As for good tactics overwhelming an opponent, that actually depends. Good tactics would be useless if they can't accomplish certain conditions like being able to have the power output enough to cause at least enough damage to their opponent, good enough aptitude to be able to keep up with their opponent, etc.

Gaizafaiz

2017-10-18, 06:08

As for good tactics overwhelming an opponent, that actually depends. Good tactics would be useless if they can't accomplish certain conditions like being able to have the power output enough to cause at least enough damage to their opponent, good enough aptitude to be able to keep up with their opponent, etc.

That's where experience comes in hand. ;)
Formulating a plan while knowing your weaknesses and the limits of your own body.

DragonOsman

2017-10-18, 06:29

@Lucidrago: You keep glossing over the fact that, as someone who is also in Team DxD, there will inevitably be times when Rias is forced to have one-on-one battles. In real battle situations, not Rating Games. Though it can also happen in Rating Games, like in Volume 10 when she had to fight Regulus by herself. And again, she's a Power-type fighter like Sairaorg. Do you think she can beat Sairaorg in a one-on-one fight? I don't. Also, the Ultimate-class King she "defeated" had already been injured by Crom Cruach beforehand, so we don't even know if she's really Ultimate-class herself yet. You see?

Also, Krudelu's point is that it'll be almost impossible to use her in vs. debates, whether they be in-series or crossover matchups. Because she just doesn't have enough showings for that. And no matter what you think, that actually is a problem.

@Krudelu and Gaizafaiz: Agreed.

But Gaizafaiz, the current discussion isn't really just about battle experience. It's about how much actual feats we've seen of a certain character.

Sparda4

2017-10-18, 10:21

@Sparda
Unless Daud himself could actually keep up with something as fast as lightning with either his slow time or outside his time manipulation (aka just by himself). This is why I was actually asking this to figure out whether it's a blitz or not.

Right now, I may need an answer to this before the deal is sealed: Was Daud actually capable of keeping up with someone as fast as lightning via slow time or outside time manipulation? Or he's only shown to react to bullets only? Anything faster he dealt with?

At the moment, the advantage actually comes down whether time stop works or not until the above question is answered.

Right now, the only reason why Kiba gets this if he can resist time stop is due to his massive speed advantage. But THAT'S IF he can resist it.

Because if Daud could actually keep up with such speed outside time stop, then this match might be even, which will require to move on to discussing another aspect (their battle habits and skills probably) to figure out the outcome.

Also, just in case, how's Daud's durability? just wanted to know so I might be able to tell how many blows he might survive or if Gram will be needed.

Pardon me for being a bit persistent on the questions since I don't just set the final answer easily until certain questions are answered especially if one side is where I lack knowledge of.

At least this is kind of interesting since it made me touch upon the time manipulation aspect (on top of getting to talk about Gasper for a little bit despite he's not the main subject as a bonus):heh:

Daud was able to react to bullets but not to anything faster then that. And he can take a beating and a granade and that's about it(as a boss) but if he is caught off guard then he's done for.

Lucidrago

2017-10-18, 10:29

@Osman If you haven't realized most of the series has passed us by. So Rias' chance for one-on-one battles are over. Just know that Rias is very strong but not as insane as the Longinus possessors. Just saying that Ishibumi has already set her role in the series. But she can easily fight in one-on-one battles.

Krudelu

2017-10-18, 10:43

@Sparda4 Thanks for confirmation. Yeah, it now comes down to whether time stop works or not

Though I'll be honest that so far, the time stop abilities specifically I've seen everywhere tends to have fixed potency for the user but Gasper is the only character I've seen so far to have it's potency affected by the user's level of power instead.
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As for Rias, it's never too late for her chance to have 1v1 until the series is over.

Sparda4

2017-10-18, 11:01

@Sparda4 Thanks for confirmation. Yeah, it now comes down to whether time stop works or not

Though I'll be honest that so far, the time stop abilities specifically I've seen everywhere tends to have fixed potency but Gasper is the only character I've seen so far to have it's potency affected by the user's level of power instead.

As i stated before the only one who's better then Daud at stopping time is the Outsider everybody else is on an equal level if they are marked. Void artifacts and Corroded bonecharms only nullify the effects of Bend Time.

https://youtu.be/UjerawZ34P4

Just to show how strong his Bend Time is and how durable he is.(Don't know if the link works)

Krudelu

2017-10-18, 11:10

I know where you getting at. At least that one have specific factors in it.

Also, i meant to say "fixed potency for the user" than just "fixed potency" (that sounded like I'm generalizing the time stop ability itself) so my bad.

DragonOsman

2017-10-18, 15:34

@Lucidrago: Again, look Rias vs. Regulus in Volume 10. She's lost some of the more significant one-on-one fights she's been in, and they weren't detailed or even shown enough for us to tell what she can really do. Even her victories were like that.

And please don't talk about her potential again. We know that she has the potential to be (maybe) Satan-class or at least high-tier Ultimate-class. But we don't know if she's reached Ultimate-class yet or not. The fight against the unnamed Ultimate-class King wasn't enough for us to be able to tell.

And yeah, like Krudelu said, she still has chances for one-on-one fights as long as the series hasn't ended.

Also, she does have parts of her life that we aren't seeing. And in one of those times that we don't see, she might have a one-on-one fight against someone as strong as or stronger than her. You can't deny that. She's a member of Team DxD, so she may have to fight one-on-one in real battle scenarios from time to time. It's inevitable.

Lucidrago

2017-10-18, 16:45

Parry999

2017-10-18, 19:21

Regulus and Sona were the only one-on-one fights Rias has had in the series and they were offscreen. And Regulus is a Longinus and was a Nemean Lion which is explanation enough for why she lost.

Like I said it's really useless to debate. Showing off Rias in one-in-one battles isn't a concern for Ishibumi neither is it her role in the series. Not saying that she shouldn't have a chance to show her power in one-on-one fights. But if you have read the series that isn't one of her roles that Ishibumi intended for her. Do you Remember the first 5 volumes or how she was complete fodder compared to her peerage in volumes 10-12? Azazel gave her shitty training advice which is weird since he trained vali. Ishibumi changes his mind every 5 minutes. His intentions don't matter she's been ass combat wise in this series where she's the main heroine. She's also the most popular character in the series because of the animes success. If fans are disappointed that's a problem. No l am not saying she should be anywhere on a Longinus welders level by the way. She should be a solid midtop tier she's no where near.

Tbolt

2017-10-18, 21:16

Wow such a definitive answer for a fictional character.

Lucidrago

2017-10-18, 22:42

Volume 1: Rias defeated a bunch of fallen angels offscreen. Just her introduction as the king of the group and as a really powerful devil.

Volume 2: Rias launched some attacks at Riser which were merely doing nothing to him because at that moment he was stronger and more experienced than Rias. Her role was leading her peerage in the Rating Game. And being the damsel in distress that Issei saved from an engagement she didn't want.

Volume 3: Could do nothing to Kokabiel just like the rest of her peerage couldn't. Her role was to lead her peerage in that battle.

Volume 4: She basically did nothing that volume. Her role along with being the king is being the mother and big sister of the group. So basically said some things to Gasper. And also that part where she was embarrassed by her father and brother.

Volume 5: Took her peerage to the Underworld. Her mother got on Rias for breaking off the engagement even though it was Issei's choice although everyone views otherwise. And then did some training which wasn't really training at all since she's already powerful enough. And she was restricted by Kuroka's poison. And then she fought Sona in her Rating Game and had a one-on-one battle against Sona and won which was an offscreen battle.

Volume 6: Fought against Diodora's queen and two bishops along with Akeno. Only won through the power of anger and jealousy.

Volume 7: Lead her peerage in battle against Loki and Fenrir.

Volume 9: Wasn't even there.

Volume 10: Lead her peerage in the Rating Game against Sairaorg and his peerage. Felt that she was almost worthless because of not being stupidly OP like Sairaorg or as intelligent as Sona or Seekvaira but Riser complimented her as telling her that her talent was in the powerful servants she had gathered. And then basically her role was as the leader of her peerage. And then she lost to Regulus in her one-on-one battle against him. Rias is talented and powerful yes but Regulus is a Longinus who was a Nemean Lion.

Volume 11: Got her powers restricted by Cao Cao along with Akeno. Cao Cao made almost everyone his b*tches that day. And was one of the only ones that fought the Grim Reapers afterwards.

Volume 12: Cried over Issei's 'death' and locked herself in her room. Sairaorg came to knock some sense into her. And then her and her peerage(and Ravel) went to Ajuka so he could do a check-up on Issei's evil pieces. And then Siegried and remnants of the Old Satan Faction came. Rias could barely use her power along with the other girls because of her grief of losing Issei. Until Issei's evil pieces responded to them and she along with everyone else regained their will to fight.

Volume 14: Went to Romania with Kiba.

Volume 16: Lead her peerage.

Volume 17: Was paired with Bennia and went to fight the mass-produced Evil Dragons. And went with Issei after Euclid to save Rossweisse.

Volume 18: Lead her peerage in Heaven. And got an assist from Cao Cao.

Volume 19: Lead her peerage in battle against the rebel exorcists. Her along with the rest of her peerage could do nothing to Vasco Strada.

Volume 20: Lead her peerage in battle in Agreas. Got a cool new combination move with Issei where she got her own Scalemail and kicked ass.

Volume 21: Lead her peerage in battle against Trihexa in the Norse world while Issei was unconscious. Then lead her peerage against Trihexa, Apophis, and the mass-produced Evil Dragons on the coasts of Japan.

Volume 22: Was there with Issei when he got promoted to high-class devil and traded Xenovia, Asia, and Rossweisse over to him. And she graduated from Kuoh Academy high school. And then she finds powerful team members for the Azazel Cup.

Volume 23: Lead her team in the Azazel Cup and showed how she could use her team and its abilities to the fullest which is the goal of the king.

So you complain about the first five volumes. Was she supposed to be a match against Riser who was stronger and way more experienced than her? Was she supposed to do anything to Kokabiel despite the rest of her peerage being incapable of doing anything? In Volume 10, Sairaorg's peerage was very close to hers and since she was the king, her moves were very limited. And she lost against Regulus, a Longinus. She did nothing to Cao Cao in Volume 11 just like the rest of her peerage. Tell me what didn't she do that you can say most of her peerage did? Because everyone in the peerage besides Issei and Kiba have a surprising lack of one-on-one battles. Akeno has lost her one-on-one battles if you haven't realized. Basically everyone besides Issei and Kiba hasn't shown off in one-on-one battles. You got almost nothing to go on with them just like Rias.

What do you want for Rias? What do you expect her role to be? And what is she doing wrong that her peerage isn't?

Parry999

2017-10-18, 23:58

Dude she was a one on one fighter in the first couple volumes that was my point. Also I already said want I expected from Rias in the final arc is for her to be a mid tier fighter below the sacred gear wielder and super devils. Am sorry if I didn't make that clear. Dude we seen how ever member of org has gotten stronger besides maybe Koneko and Akeno at times. Stop using that Horrible advice Azazel gave Rias about not training. When we have seen even vali train his magic and have a hard time controling his power and talent. It also countradicts what makes her generation great is actual training instead of born given right.

DragonOsman

2017-10-19, 09:44

Rias also constantly trains. She has the potential to be Ultimate-class even if she doesn't train, but again, she's constantly training. But we don't know if she's Ultimate-class or not and the fight against unnamed Ultimate-class Devil King doesn't tell us enough because she only defeated him after he'd already been wounded by Crom's attack.

@Lucidrago: We know she shouldn't be expected to be able to beat a Longinus yet. But the fact still remains that she does have one-on-one battles despite being the King of her peerage. I was just trying to show you that that part of your argument was already moot. It's not like she won't ever have one-on-one battles just because she's the King. She's a Power-type fighter, remember? And plus she's a member of the anti-terrorist group Team DxD. Within Team DxD, technically, she's still a fighter and will have to fight terrorists alone at times as well. And Ise and Sairaorg are also Power-type Kings and they also fight one-on-one in their matches at times. Rias will have to as well.

And the main point here is that we don't have enough to go on for her and some other characters to be able to use them in vs. debates. We know how much potential Rias has, but we don't know exactly how strong is currently which is a big problem. Just saying what "class" she's in as a Devil isn't enough, and even if it were, we don't really even know for sure if she's just a high-tier High-class Devil or if she's already an Ultimate-class Devil (power-wise, not rank-wise).

Lucidrago

2017-10-19, 11:22

And I'm saying that Ishibumi doesn't really consider that a big part of her character. You're barely going to have terrorists that are at or above Rias' level. In Qlippoth you only had Rizevim, Euclid, Walburga, and the Evil Dragons. It's not that Rias can't fight one-on-one it's just that she doesn't have an opportunity to 90% of the time. I wouldn't call her fighting against Riser a fight since he wasn't even doing anything. And her fight against Sona and Regulus were offscreen. Right now either the opponents are way below Rias' level or way above. And Rias is too busy leading her peerage. If Rias had a typical peerage and was stronger than all of her servants then she would be getting lots of one-on-one fights. But nothing about Rias' peerage is typical. Typical peerages don't have a Nekoshou, the daughter of a Fallen Angel leader, or a Longinus possessor. For example, in Sairaorg's case, he's stronger than all of his servants. The same with Riser. The same with Diehauser. The same with the Maou/Satans. Her being a king combined with Issei being the strongest in the peerage means a severe lack of one-on-one battles for her. She has a whole peerage to lead. And her servants are so strong that can handle the strong opponents before she even gets a chance. Rias is just doing her job. Allowing her servants to show off and displaying their power and abilities to the fullest.

Ishibumi's view: Rias is already perfect in strength. She has nothing to improve on there. She's not the strongest but still she has nothing to improve on and she just needs time and experience. So I'm not going to be showing her off as much as I show off her servants. There's no need to display her power. So I'm going to focus on her being the king of her OP peerage and her relationship with Issei. She's strong enough and is getting stronger so I don't need to explain that.

Gaizafaiz

2017-10-19, 11:50

Isn't it more like being your view instead of Ishibumi? It's okay for you having your own view. It's just that when we discuss about Rias one-on-one battle, you just need to not mind about it. And I'm not searching for a fight or whatsoever, it's just that if we were to continue this debate, then there will be no end to it. We who believes that Rias needs more fighting scenes and you who believe that she doesn't need any fighting scenes. Ok? :)

DragonOsman

2017-10-19, 12:26

^Yep. We don't even really know what Ishibumi thinks, do we?

And I want to know how strong she really is. Again, we just know what her potential is. I want to know how strong is currently. Got it?

Krudelu

2017-10-19, 15:49

Ah, things have been going in circles.

The real problem is that those rare opportunities when she had her own battles is they don't get details, not her amount of battles or 1v1s. This is not a matter of having more battles of her. Role doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if she have more battles and 1v1s even if she gains more later on as long as they still keep up making her battles lack in detail (going off-screen is one of them), the problem of her being hard to exactly figure out her benchmark and debate with will still persist.

One detailed battle is leagues better compared to multiple lack of detailed battles and this is why someone like Strada, Bedeze, Apophis, and Azi Dahaka had something analyzable. It may be unfair since they were the main opponents of their respective volumes but the point still stands.

Also, Xenovia is one of the characters that rarely have 1v1s but one of those rare opportunity ended up being detailed.

And regarding Ishibumi's view, we don't even know if he really intended it for her to make her fights not detailed but as long as the series is still ongoing, who knows what he might pull in the future. Heck, there are times when he change his intentions.

Lucidrago

2017-10-19, 15:54

Well basically no one besides the main guys(Issei, Vali, Sairaorg, or Kiba) have had detailed one-on-one battles. So it's not just Rias.

Parry999

2017-10-19, 21:20

No one's even denying that his cast needs more fights.

Lucidrago

2017-10-19, 23:55

DragonOsman

2017-10-20, 03:03

@Krudelu: Agreed.

@Lucidrago: Rias is the main heroine, so it's worse in her case.

aw454wtr

2017-10-20, 03:09

Well you already know there's only so much Ishibumi can put into one volume. So you're going to get Vali vs Crom Cruach and part of Koneko vs Kuroka in Volume 24 and probably Arthur vs Vasco Strada. Honestly don't see how Ishibumi's going to do that.

Don't think Vali is foolish enough to go 1 on 1 against Crom at his current level Crom will crush Vali

Vali has just reached heavenly dragon level which he cannot maintain for long (probably even shorter than Issei's time in DxD G)

Crom can launch attacks that rip the dimensional gap and not even break a sweat afterwards

DragonOsman

2017-10-20, 03:12

If you mean Vali's DxD L, I think he can hold it for longer than Ise can hold his Pseudo DxD G. It's just the form is really taxing (on stamina).

Krudelu

2017-10-20, 04:10

Well this is Vali we're talking about here so I bet he'll actually go challenge Crom to 1v1

Crom didn't ripped the dimensional gap. He made a hole in the field they were in instead.

Lucidrago

2017-10-20, 07:56

That's assuming that Vali hasn't perfected DxD L yet. This is Vali we're talking about here.

DragonOsman

2017-10-20, 09:30

@Krudelu: Crom's attack did the same thing Ise's in Pseudo DxD G mode with the ∞ Blaster did. They both ripped a hole in the dimension that the field is in. Ddraig even said he did it to send out a challenge to Ise, by showing him that he can do the same thing. And I agree with Ddraig.

Parry999

2017-10-20, 12:35

Took vali like 10 volumes to figure out how to turn on juggernaut overdrive again. The thing was less stable then issei full drive. The odds of vali fully mastering Dxd already is slim.

Krudelu

2017-10-20, 12:43

@DragonOsman yes I know that. What the guy said was he's capable of ripping the dimensional gap, which is not true. Maybe he meant the field but somehow got it mixed up with dimensional gap

DragonOsman

2017-10-20, 16:57

Parry999

2017-10-20, 20:05

@Parry: I think Vali will master it at some point. Ise will master his, too, though he has to get the completed one back first (Ophis and Lilith have to resonate for that to happen, though).

Vali's growth rate is on par with or greater than Ise's in case you haven't noticed. His Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive still needs to be perfected, but Ise's True Queen also still needs to be as well. Their respective imperfections are just of different kinds compared to each other.

@Krudelu: Oh, okay. Issei almost fully mastered his powers in almost a year. It's taken ValI literally years to get where he is. There end levels will be comparable but there growth rates I wouldn't say are. Issei know for his irregular growth. Vali has super devil demonic potential that he hasn't fully unlocked. Though Vali didn't seem to try to upgrade his scared gear till issei Inspired him.

Lucidrago

2017-10-20, 23:10

Where was it said that Issei almost fully mastered his powers? Achieving a bunch of forms doesn't mean he has almost mastered his powers. If he's done that then he should be Top 10 level right now.

And also fast-pace growth is a symptom of MCitis. When you got a MC with next to no talent whose starting point is at a regular human's and you want to keep the story in a high school setting with no timeskips then it seems very off. Especially when you sell the MC as a no-talent loser(I'm looking at you, Naruto!). And suddenly they're mastering things in weeks that took the geniuses years to even come up with. And then you're selling us on the idea that they did it with hard work. You start wondering really. Who's the geniuses? Then you realize it's because they have to create an uber-powerful character and they can't just have a bunch of timeskips like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. And some series don't have timeskips at all like DxD(year timeskips). So now they've got to give the MC special attention convincing their audience that this guy is so pathetic but is now mastering things in weeks that took the geniuses years even those that added in hard work. Think about it for a second.

Parry999

2017-10-20, 23:28

Gaizafaiz

2017-10-20, 23:51

@Lucidrago Well in Naruto's case, he's been training since he was a youngster. The only problem is that due to his poor management of chakra, he was called a no talented person. But once he has a grasp on it, he bloomed quite fast. And no he's no ordinary human, he has the Uzumaki bloodline + Kyuubi in him.

@Parry999 Agree. Since they got DxD, things have really changed a lot.

Krudelu

2017-10-21, 00:48

As for Issei gaining forms, there's outside factors involved in them for the most part (like DxD form where it's due to Ophis's "blessing"). So basically, the way he gained this forms is like gaining new equipment from somewhere rather than achieved through training. BB is like the only one to be unlocked with the training as part of achieving it while poking the breast as a catalyst.

Most of his training address his stamina usage and getting the hang of his "equipment" while learning other applications along the way.

DragonOsman

2017-10-21, 05:48

He got the Triaina and True Queen from within the Boosted Gear, though, just like Balance Breaker. Those are Ddraig's own powers. Ophis and Great Red's powers are what he was given later and is having to unlock and master. Though he also hasn't managed to completely bring out and master Ddraig's full power either. I think he'll do it eventually, though. He probably has to awaken the power he got from Great Red first. And there's also what Ajuka said in Volume 23 Life 3 according to Noman's spoilers.

But we can say he's almost mastered Ddraig's powers because he just has to complete the True Queen for that now. It's already close since it's at Maou-class power. I think there's just one more giant upgrade to go before it reaches Ddraig's full power from his prime.

Krudelu

2017-10-21, 07:06

Triana and True Queen were developed after getting his evil pieces adjusted so evil pieces , which is the "outside factor," played a part on achieving these forms. I wonder what forms would he get past BB if he doesn't have the evil pieces.

DragonOsman

2017-10-21, 14:20

Darksider555

2017-10-21, 19:13

I just noticed that Rias has the least amount of techniques, unique fighting abilities and forms than anyone on the ORC. Compared to the rest of them, she doesn't show nearly as much application of techniques and abilities compared to Akeno, Asia & Koneko especially compared to Issei, Kiba & Xenovia.

DragonOsman

2017-10-21, 19:25

Well, we're about to see a new fighting style from her in Volume 24 (in the Rias Gremory team vs. Hakuryuukou of the Morning Star team match). Let's hope we see more of what she can do.

We've seen a good amount of her techniques, though. We've seen how she uses the Power of Destruction, and we've also seen a bit (only a bit, though, unfortunately) of how she fights. And she also has Extinguish Star, though that takes a really long time to charge up. I really hope she can fix that problem soon.

Heracrim

2017-10-21, 19:39

Probably a small version of Extinguish Star. I seriously imagine her charging up ES just like how Goku charging up for Spirit Bomb.

B214

2017-10-21, 20:10

He would've gotten them anyway, it's just that adjusting the Evil Pieces made them able to cope with the power of the Sekiryuutei more easily. And plus, the adjustment was needed to clean up the code inside the Evil Pieces that had gotten messed up because of Juggernaut Drive. It would've been dangerous for Ise himself if Ajuka hadn't done that.

And those forms are Ise's answer to a power different from Juggernaut Drive that, when mastered, will also bring out the full power of the Sekiryuutei from his prime, just in this case it'd be without the negative emotions and stuff that had been tainting it in Juggernaut Drive. If he didn't have the Evil Pieces, he would've gotten a different from that does the same thing as Juggernaut Drive without the same risks. Because at the end of the day, that's what the Triaina and True Queen are, right? Ise just hasn't perfected them yet (because the True Queen isn't at the same level as Ddraig in his prime yet).

Actually no. If Ajuka hadn't adjusted the Evil Pieces, Ise wouldn't have unlocked Triaina or CCQ. The program could potentially make Ise's EP malfunction due to it being messy.

“…..The power of chess pieces. The trait is being used on something else and is changing a bit. This is an interesting phenomenon. Looks like it’s overwritten by a code that isn’t written in my program. From my personal view, it must be the influence of “Juggernaut Drive”…… But the overwritten code is messy. With this program, it would malfunction easily…… Yes. I will alter the evil-piece within you.”