Sven in Gundam Seed Destiny

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Honey and Clover

Cut the crap man. Shin is a stupid character. End of story.

Yeah im wasting my time here, because some people are just plain too arrogant who cant accept what others think, theres no point in continuing a conversation when somebody starts throwing personal assumptions and labels. Ok man, ill let you have the last say.

^Are you Bill O'Reilly?

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver

Shin cant win against Athrun after losing his big sword. Infinite Justice's legs has already two sword beams, plus with 3 other light sabers with his back pack has 2 more. Plus Athrun can beat a Chaos using a Zaku. Athrun abilities are much better than Shin. Shin was already going to lose, he just went desperate coz hes got nothing more to show.

This doesn't justify at all that Sven can do the same to Shinn just because Athrun can.

How many times Abyss has to appear before being killed by Shin. To think Sven gonna get killed in the first contact. I dont think so, i dont know what can happen. Sven wouldnt come back empty handed, after 2nd or 3rd time. But the truth is we will never know what will happen until the actual encounter. Its like saying Freedom is invincible, but then it can be defeated by a mid tier gundam like Impulse, thats because it happen in the anime. But for Sven and Shin, it didint happen in the anime, so you can conclude what ever you want, but that gives you no reason to think that im just some dumb fanboy or some dreamer, thats none of your buisness.

If it's none of my business, then why did you have to expose yourself in a fanboyish way as you just did? Your concluding things based on your personal liking as a basis of arguement and you've shown this on many of your posts (which again, I believe amounts to fanboyism). You just made it my business and the business of any other that replies to this thread the moment you decided to argue based on your personal liking of a character, such as Sven.

I think Shin's capabilities are too great, but in terms of character, i think he sucks like evil anakin skywalker. I said it previously, ill say it simpler this time.

The bolded part is the only thing Shinn needs to defeat Sven. Being a sucky character is not any of our problems. This is why you fail to understand.

Kira is a good character, thats why SEED is much better than GSD. Shin sucks, thats the point, whether he is weak or strong, suck is suck. End of story.

Who says Kira is a good character? See, again, that is personal opinion that you just used, as not everyone agrees with you there. Suck is suck, yes, I agree, but whether he is weak or strong IS what makes the difference with him being able to own Sven.

Yes it does, ive been repeating myself too. Dont feel sorry for yourself.

Okay, so all the characters that you hate automatically are crappy pilots and they lose in battle. And the characters that you love and admire the most suddenly beyond god-like in skill, ability and power. Yes, I completely understand your point, thanks for clarifiying.

Well if you compare with Justice and Freedom, Kira and Athrun have fought each other, we can say 50/50. But ive never seen Sven and Shin fought, so i dont know.

Again, you are right. Since we've never seen Sven and Shinn fight, all we can do is assume. But what is the basis of our assumptions? What happened in the actual footage or how much we like the character personally?

Arent youre the one doing that. Cut the crap man. Shin is a stupid character. End of story.

Yeah im wasting my time here, because some people are just plain too arrogant who cant accept what others think.

Um... I am accepting what you think, in fact, I'm agreeing with you, Shinn is a sucky character and he is a bitch. However, this is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with the facts. I guess this makes me arrogant and unaccepting of other people's thoughts. Right on, bro.

theres no point in continuing a conversation when somebody starts throwing personal assumptions and labels. Ok man, ill let you have the last say

Wait, suddenly I'M the one making personal assumptions here? Um... last time I checked, you're the one making assumptions based on your personal liking of Sven.
My assumptions however, are nothing to do with my personal opinions whatsoever, as they are based on what just happened in the anime.
But again, you are Mr. Right, there is no point in continuing a conversation with someone when somebody does throw personal assumptions... like certain ppl have just did. Since I have the last say though, I'd like to thank you for your input and it has allowed me to analyse each arguement and have more fun reading before I take my final stance. Thank you and have a good one.

[Phantom-Takaya]

Yes, so it would seem, monstert. But like you said, it's quite generic, so it can also be looked at as "as a character plus respective mobile suit, how well off will the character be in terms of story-building and possibly popularity in the GSD world?" That, in itself, is what I've been discussing. Sure, Shinn might have gone emotional and killed off Sven, but who says he wouldn't be a good developing character? My only worries in that is how Fukuda permitted characters who began to grow on you were so easily discarded.

Now for the versus thing, what I'm seeing in that is simply that since Shinn's been able to display his achievements and what not (since GSD was practically us following his progress) and Sven not having much screen time to really show anything, Shinn somehow wins by default. Unfortunately, (and we've obviously come to agree this) there isn't enough data on Sven to come up with a proper assessment and comparison. This, unfortunately, still makes it speculation since we're just going off of insufficient data. With this, even I can't come up with a proper conclusion as to who will win. The reason I believe that Sven has a chance, albeit possibly being a small chance, is simply because there hasn't enough data on him yet to discount (or prove) his survivability. In a versus chart involving all the character, he would be a question mark due to this.

[Phantom-Takaya]

I must be getting too old to not know who Bill O'Reilly is... Or maybe I just don't watch TV enough anymore...

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya

Now for the versus thing, what I'm seeing in that is simply that since Shinn's been able to display his achievements and what not (since GSD was practically us following his progress) and Sven not having much screen time to really show anything, Shinn somehow wins by default. Unfortunately, (and we've obviously come to agree this) there isn't enough data on Sven to come up with a proper assessment and comparison. This, unfortunately, still makes it speculation since we're just going off of insufficient data. With this, even I can't come up with a proper conclusion as to who will win. The reason I believe that Sven has a chance, albeit possibly being a small chance, is simply because there hasn't enough data on him yet to discount (or prove) his survivability. In a versus chart involving all the character, he would be a question mark due to this.

Yes, I finally understand your stance on this, thanks for clarifying. But you see, this is why its so fun to discuss and debate VS topics with people who havent fought before. There was a massive VS Thread with stuff like Freedom vs Wing Zero, XX vs Nu Gundam, etc. etc. somewhere. That's also why it's been fun and interesting (well... for some people) to see whether Sven really has a chance against Shinn. People have argued that he can but if he was given more development. Fair enough, this is a valid statement, but it is still an if scenario and it is still fun and interesting to think that. Most VS Opinions are consisted of mostly speculation and guess work to begin with anyway. So my stance was and still is, since there was more accurate speculation we could form with Shinn's capabilties, we are better off to assume that he has the upper hand against Sven.
Another basis for our arguement is the mecha capabilities, aside from character achievements. Anyway, I guess this might be the wrong thread to discuss, so I won't further go into detail about it... (yet, lol).

But my opinion is, taking these into account, this is well... 'sorta' enough data to 'speculate' (again, not concluding anything solid, so relax) that Shinn is pretty much at the upper hand against Sven.

[Phantom-Takaya]

Fair enough. At least we've come to an understanding, even though we've got slightly different opinions in things (though I don't think too different), without trying to ripping each others hair out or being at each others throat. That's actually the main reason I dislike being too involved in those types of discussions. For that, I have quite the amount of respect for you.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya

trying to ripping each others hair out or being at each others throat.

lol, I don't know where u got this impression from though. As far as I was concerned, I held back enough profanity that was necessary and I'm pretty sure you knew I was kidding when I called you an ass (or something, can't remember) . See the thing is, some people assume that argueing = flaming. I sure hope that's not you.

[Phantom-Takaya]

Heh. Well, honestly, I actually accept the fact that I can be quite an ass sometimes. But before the moderators start citing us for veering off topic, we can continue this discussion elsewhere. Of course, I'll be going to sleep now and maybe there will be new posts to respond to when I get the chance.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya

Yes, so it would seem, monstert. But like you said, it's quite generic, so it can also be looked at as "as a character plus respective mobile suit, how well off will the character be in terms of story-building and possibly popularity in the GSD world?" That, in itself, is what I've been discussing. Sure, Shinn might have gone emotional and killed off Sven, but who says he wouldn't be a good developing character? My only worries in that is how Fukuda permitted characters who began to grow on you were so easily discarded.

You mean someone like Heine? I don't know if that would work with someone like Sven (at least, from what I've seen in Stargazer). Or maybe someone like Heero (and perhaps even this new silent main character Setsuna in Gundam 00), but they (well at least Heero, and certainly Heine) seem to be more independent as character(s) than Sven, who (as I mentioned in my first post in this thread) seem more of a follower (and I don't mean battle-wise, he may be a decent leader in that regard). Of course, anything can happen in a 50-episode series, but if they change how Sven is (and I don't really see how they wouldn't if they expect something more from Sven), then it might not be the same Sven that the thread creater wanted to see in GSD. Then again, it may be a better Sven (or not), but still not the same.

Of course, I'm not a writer, so maybe there is a way to give a character who doesn't talk much and has no known relation with other people and seems to be content with following order a significant (as in, character developing, like you put it) role in a story like GSD, where most of the plot seems centered on dialogs and ideas, etc.

[Phantom-Takaya]

Sven also meets Selene at the end of Stargazer, who is quite spirited and strong-willed in her own right. She can be quite an influence. It's true that he's been trained since he was quite young to be nothing more than a soldier that strongly follows orders, but with where he ends up with at the end of Stargazer, he may become more than just that. It's really how and in what direction they could choose to send Gundam SEED.

[M_Flores]

Hmm... something crossed my mind though...

What if Sven was in SEED rather than SEED Destiny?
I think he'd have more of a chance in early CE 70's, simply because his MS gets a technological head start and is more advanced than any of the first 5 EA suits.
He is also a half decent Natural pilot anyway, compared to the Astray girls (whom I assume are Naturals?).

You think Sven could survive the battle of Yachin Due (sp) ?
I'm assuming he'd have the druggies by his side, while ZAFT only has Duel AS and Providence Gundam. The druggies got owned because they just... went apeshit and lost control while also getting owned by Yzak, Dearka and one of the METEORs, if Sven stayed in the EA side all the way, would he be able to keep his cool as he did in SG and survive the first war?

*If he and his Strike Noir runs into Rau and Providence Gundam, Game Over, no continues, no credits, zero tokens, no main character armor to save him.

*I think he'll be able to pwn the Astray girls 3 on one, considering even Strike Daggers gave them a hard time.

*If he runs into Yzak or Dearka, it could be an interesting triple threat match, which is pretty even, coz although Yzak and Dearka are Coordies, Sven still has the superior machine.

*Against the METEORs... well, should we compared druggie performance as a basis of our predictions? Well, the druggies were hyped up and the METEORs were distracted by other things anyway, so I dunno. However, two against one, Kira and Athrun pretty much took a dump on Calamity. You gotta admit that METEORs dont seem to be really designed for MS vs MS combat or duels, but more of large scale spamming. However, if Sven faced Kira as he was when he fought Rau... damn, poor Sven will completely get shown who the main character is around here.

*Against Cagalli? This is the one I'm interested in because its the most unclear. But my take on it? Although Sven may be a mushroom cloud layin badass and the Strike Noir is the one that says 'bad motherf**ker'... but at the end of the day, he sure aint got THIS --->

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Against the METEORs... well, should we compared druggie performance as a basis of our predictions?

^Hell Yeah...Sven ain't better than Crotho in RAIDER...I don't think STRIKE NOIR can match RAIDER in a vs. match with METEOR...Given the vast difference in armaments RADIER was totally outperforming JUSTICE METEOR...Verses a battle damaged BUSTER and DUEL with a spankin' clean, fully powered NOIR--yeah I'd give Sven a shot...All 3 SEED druggies vs. Sven would be death when his suit is less capable than FREEDOM (Who could barely fight 2 at a time)...

Battle damged STRIKE NOIR (Sven) vs. Battle damaged RAIDER (Crotho)??

Crotho all the way IMO...

STRIKE NOIR could beat CALAMITY though....Shani has all defense so it's hard to say if he'd lose...In any event if Sven could just wait them out (ya know til they go insane) he might get a sure victory^^...

[J_Ridden]

Sven vs. Heine would be interesting, in their respective MS of course. They've got similar armament too, minus the railguns for GOUF.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

^Hell Yeah...Sven ain't better than Crotho in RAIDER...I don't think STRIKE NOIR can match RAIDER in a vs. match with METEOR...Given the vast difference in armaments RADIER was totally outperforming JUSTICE METEOR...Verses a battle damaged BUSTER and DUEL with a spankin' clean, fully powered NOIR--yeah I'd give Sven a shot...All 3 SEED druggies vs. Sven would be death when his suit is less capable than FREEDOM (Who could barely fight 2 at a time)...

Battle damged STRIKE NOIR (Sven) vs. Battle damaged RAIDER (Crotho)??

Crotho all the way IMO...

STRIKE NOIR could beat CALAMITY though....Shani has all defense so it's hard to say if he'd lose...In any event if Sven could just wait them out (ya know til they go insane) he might get a sure victory^^...

But I thought druggies and Sven are in the same team???

[D a m i e n]

sven would have been a perfect "war" serie main character instead of the 1 man centered serie gundam are now. a serie that is not aimed on only 1 character, but rather follow the course of a character and his platoon through the war.
i just hate how seed universe has turn any character with a name as a one man army, and when 2 named character fight they just cant manage to kill/disable one or the other. 2 mains character are able to bulleye x amount of trash canon fooder yet are unable to hit each other.
take a look back on older serie you wont see this (older being series before GW).

As for sven > shinn, all i can say a trained mature soldier > a teenage emo angry little red head stepchild with a sister complex (yes i didnt like shinn) in term of credibility charisma and everything else.
Who would be the best out the 2 characters is just plain stupid, the scryptwritter have made it clear that in seed universe only coordinator pilot are to survive (mwu dies in GS and is resurected for GSD wich totally destroyed this character) natural humanbeing are just cannon fooder that are here to die as a sacrifice to the awsomness that coordinator are.

i would have loved to see a serie "staring" sven as a soldier and not the powersweating monster that seed univ character are. would have love to seen him and his laconic/stoic point of view on war through the course of war(with in the background news of what happen in GSD being broadcasted).

[Eidolon Sniper]

^^^ Amen for EA redemption.

[M_Flores]

CE totally ignores that. In CE, trained mature pilot < main character with SEED mode. That's just the way it is, like it or not, lol.

[D a m i e n]

i never question the fact the teenage emo angry little red head stepchild with a sister complex was superior to sven.
i just said that i defeat any possible "credibility" if we can talk of credibiity in a show with giant robot all over the place.
i d say leave the 14years old kid saving the world to pure shonen anime but when it comes to warfare at least the scryptwritter could have the decency to not use children as soldiers. there are enought of those in any armed conflict all over the earth

[winter45]

Here's a thought.....

Stargazer as far as i know, never mentioned that Sven is a Natural..... but we the viewers are assumed that his a natural by EA having strong emphasis against Co-ordinators. eg Brainwashing and fighting against them.

What if sven and possibly his two friends (the other 2 pilots but cant remember their names) are actually co-ordinators?

Its just a thought that i havnt seen anyone brought up.


(But if its proven that sven isnt a co-ordinator let me know... its been a long time since ive watched stargazer and i might be entirely wrong)

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by winter45

Here's a thought.....

Stargazer as far as i know, never mentioned that Sven is a Natural..... but we the viewers are assumed that his a natural by EA having strong emphasis against Co-ordinators. eg Brainwashing and fighting against them.

What if sven and possibly his two friends (the other 2 pilots but cant remember their names) are actually co-ordinators?

Its just a thought that i havnt seen anyone brought up.


(But if its proven that sven isnt a co-ordinator let me know... its been a long time since ive watched stargazer and i might be entirely wrong)

Um... I'm pretty sure before SG came out, the previews, the promos, background info all said that Sven was a Natural, didnt it? I can't remember.