(L) Victorian Romance Emma 2nd season

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Wait, weren't you planning on writing something for Black Lagoon? All I remember is that it was supposed to involve Balalaika and Rock... Or was that for Mushishi? Uhm, yeah...

Maybe it's just me, but while I think he isn't lying, I also feel that his heart isn't to up to it either. He seems desperately trying to move on from loneliness.

While we both see the wrong in what William has done, I see it from a different standpoint. You accuse him of not holding up to the promise, whereas I blame him for making it. In the end, that may just be a play on words playing on the same situation, but this is also the main reason why I reversed that question earlier.

I wrote the one for Rock and Balalaika already, it was a great deal of fun. You can find it at ff.net. The one for mushishi is slower in coming.

I don't think we're in disagreement on that point; I do blame him for making the promise, it was a mistake and everyone knew it (Even Richard was surprised), but once he made it, I felt he should have done the right thing and see it through.

You've read Hachikuro to the end right? Towards the end, Nomiya asks Yamada this: Say there was a button that would make Mayama love her if she pushed it, but Leader would be locked away in an unlit cell for the rest of his life as a side effect, would she press the button? Yamada said no, of course she wouldn't; even though she wants Mayama to love her more than anything else, she refuses it if it must come at the cost of another's misfortune. Remarkably, her choice is the exact opposite of the one William made, and without judging either, I must say I admire Yamada's decision more.

Pheonix2772: William's proposal was a knee-jerk reaction to Monica's outburst, and quite a childish one at that. It didn't occur to me that at any point in the manga Eleanor was forcing or capable of forcing William into anything without his own consent.

Eleanor killing herself would have thrown a guilt-ridden pall over the entire story, where no one is happy at the end, so I don't particularly like that idea.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

I wrote the one for Rock and Balalaika already, it was a great deal of fun. You can find it at ff.net. The one for mushishi is slower in coming.

Now you tell me.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

I don't think we're in disagreement on that point; I do blame him for making the promise, it was a mistake and everyone knew it (Even Richard was surprised), but once he made it, I felt he should have done the right thing and see it through.

I guess for me it's more about because he made it in the first place. Why propose if your heart's not into it? Why put yourself in that situation, if you don't really want to see it through? First and foremost, one shouldn't be making such promises when one lacks the will and complete intention to keep them. It's a selfish way of looking at it; I admit, but that's where my bias lies. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just being naive, not seeing things from William's view who has been thinking that "it's all over," and my position as a reader, who "knew along that it isn't" is simply part of this perspective.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

You've read Hachikuro to the end right? Towards the end, Nomiya asks Yamada this: Say there was a button that would make Mayama love her if she pushed it, but Leader would be locked away in an unlit cell for the rest of his life as a side effect, would she press the button? Yamada said no, of course she wouldn't; even though she wants Mayama to love her more than anything else, she refuses it if it must come at the cost of another's misfortune. Remarkably, her choice is the exact opposite of the one William made, and without judging either, I must say I admire Yamada's decision more.

Nope, I watched the anime. I did hear that such a scene happens in the manga. (Though I can't seem to remember if that also occurs in the anime version.)

For me, what is more parallel to this anime's circumstances is an idea found in Onegai Teacher. Basically OT shows that one's feelings, no matter how honest and pure can hurt someone else, (the hidden yet simple truth of love stories) and happiness in its own way may cause pain to others. Personally, I think there's some truth to that. A harsh one, that is.

[Cal-Reflector]

Yes, the fic is quite the mood lifter after the dreadful contents of this conversation of ours.

Agreed; why make promises you don't want to/can't keep? BUT, keep them once you make them; it's part of human decency.

On OT and Hachikuro Parallels: In manga romance, rarely is there a story without a third (and fourth, and fifth) wheel, so I agree that happiness of one couple could very likely result in disappointment for the other parties, and that is reasonable and a fact of life. Leading someone to believe that you return her love and proposing when you don't want to, however, is not reasonable. I forgave Mayama in the end, deciding that he wasn't ultimately trying to lead Yamada on, but what William did to Eleanor? Grace sums it up nicely in one word: "Despicable."

[kujoe]

True on both accounts. I think it's the selfish side of me that believes that one shouldn't be making such promises in the first place. The fact that William is pressured (as opposed to forced) heightens that sentiment.

While proposals are made and broken, for me what matters more is why they are broken in the first place. It's a nasty compromise between the depth and extent of one's intentions and doing something one really doesn't want to do out of decency. I guess I'm somewhat rebellious (and selfish) in that sense. When in doubt, don't make them in the first place.

Hence, when worded out specifically, the sin that William commits for me is not mainly that he breaks his word (though that is part of it), but that he proposes when his heart sways the opposite direction. It's a sin of cowardice (to use Pheonix's words), against the truth of his emotions.

Moreover, such a marriage has a good chance of resulting into an unhappy life for both parties and I wouldn't want to see that either.

By the way, I just read your story. Needless to say, considering the way the last arc of Second Barrage plays out, you should consider on continuing it.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by kujoe

True on both accounts. I think it's the selfish side of me that believes that one shouldn't be making such promises in the first place. The fact that William is pressured (as opposed to forced) heightens that sentiment.

While proposals are made and broken, for me what matters more is why they are broken in the first place. It's a nasty compromise between the depth and extent of one's intentions and doing something one really doesn't want to do out of decency. I guess I'm somewhat rebellious (and selfish) in that sense. When in doubt, don't make them in the first place.

Hence, when worded out, the sin that William commits for me is not mainly that he breaks his word (though that is part of it), but that he proposes when his heart sways the opposite direction. It's a sin of cowardice (to use Pheonix's words), against the truth of his emotions.

Moreover, such a marriage has a good chance of resulting into an unhappy life for both parties and I wouldn't want to see that either.

By the way, I just read your story. Needless to say, considering the way the last arc of Second Barrage plays out, you should consider on continuing it.

I suppose that satisfies me then, the conclusion we've reached. I haven't thought of any specific plot lines yet (you knew this was coming, didn't you?), but I'll devote my writing efforts to William-Eleanor, Hans-Emma, and Hans-Adelle. I'm interested in the many moments of truth in the story, where the whole outcome might have changed had the coin landed the other side up. I'm also interested in exploring whether William Eleanor would indeed be doomed to unhappiness had they ended up together, or would William, like Eleanor, view the ordeal as a learning process and move on?

Hans-Emma would require much more creativity because I haven't seen season 2 (perhaps you can summarize Hans' highlight reels from there?) and could know more about him, but in the even that William-Eleanor came true, this is the pairing which I think might be best for all parties; their peculiar but not unlikable dynamic intriuges me as well.

Hans-Adelle merely feeds my (and many other people's, I suspect) fetish for punctual, professional, rare-spoken, freakishly good looking Germans. I become like the illustrations Kaoru Mori drew of herself when I think about these two; excitement bordering on obsession. Sideburns! Stoics! Deutsche Romance! Hot Hot Hot!

Without digressing to much; well, I did leave room for a continuation, but what does it have to do with how the Second Barrage ended? What would you like to see?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

I haven't thought of any specific plot lines yet (you knew this was coming, didn't you?)

I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Hans-Emma would require much more creativity because I haven't seen season 2 (perhaps you can summarize Hans' highlight reels from there?)

Well, basically his role has been stepped up to that of a third wheel/rival/obstacle to William and Emma. A love triangle that's not exactly a love triangle in other words. But the development is a bit rushed in my opinion. Some changes have been made; some of which I don't particularly like that much.

If you don't mind, you can read a few pages back on what others have said about these matters. Opinions range from "why??" to "hmmm, interesting." Some people are reserving final judgment though, until the whole series ends. Of course, I can't speak for everybody.

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Without digressing to much; well, I did leave room for a continuation, but what does it have to do with how the Second Barrage ended? What would you like to see?

Nothing specific really. I just wanted to bring to your attention that everybody's favorite mafia queen has somewhat taken a liking to our beloved salaryman-turned-pirate. (personal interpretations vary as usual) Or at the very least, he amuses her more now. I mean, did you see that predatory look she gives him? His days are numbered, I tell you.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I'm not surprised.


Well, basically his role has been stepped up to that of a third wheel/rival/obstacle to William and Emma. A love triangle that's not exactly a love triangle in other words. But the development is a bit rushed in my opinion. Some changes have been made; some of which I don't particularly like that much.

If you don't mind, you can read a few pages back on what others have said about these matters. Opinions range from "why??" to "hmmm, interesting." Some people are reserving final judgment though, until the whole series ends. Of course, I can't speak for everybody.

This is tough, really, I am certain a far greater number of people go by anime instead of manga, which is what I prefer, yet the differences are numerous and significant enough to make any fic that tries to merge the two versions difficult, if not impossible. Just the fact that Eleanor knows and doesn't know about Emma is huge. *Headwalls* I suppose I might fallback on Myesterious Stoic Hans if Anime!Hans turns out too Bizarro.

BL response PMed.

[Pheonix2772]

Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector

Pheonix2772: William's proposal was a knee-jerk reaction to Monica's outburst, and quite a childish one at that. It didn't occur to me that at any point in the manga Eleanor was forcing or capable of forcing William into anything without his own consent.

Eleanor killing herself would have thrown a guilt-ridden pall over the entire story, where no one is happy at the end, so I don't particularly like that idea.

I wouldn't have liked it either. I merely expressed my fear at the time when I had to wait for the manga month by month that Mori might take that course of action.

I can show the specific frames where I think a bit of forcing the issue occurred later. They were at the opera and when he knelt down to pick up something she had dropped, then she, overcome by the emotions of the specific opera (I don't remember which on it was, just now) came on to him quite overtly. Granted it's not forcing in the sense of chaining the guy down, but in that society the declaration amounted to a very overt push in the direction she wanted things to go. And refusing a Campbell would have taken more back bone than William possessed that the time. The Viscount may have hated having to lower himself to the parvenu, but, having allowed it, being refused by one would have been an even greater insult, methinks.

Eleanor is a sweetheart but she is also a child of privilege, more so than William. I am pulling for a good ending for her, definitely.

[Cal-Reflector]

Originally Posted by Pheonix2772

I wouldn't have liked it either. I merely expressed my fear at the time when I had to wait for the manga month by month that Mori might take that course of action.

I can show the specific frames where I think a bit of forcing the issue occurred later. They were at the opera and when he knelt down to pick up something she had dropped, then she, overcome by the emotions of the specific opera (I don't remember which on it was, just now) came on to him quite overtly. Granted it's not forcing in the sense of chaining the guy down, but in that society the declaration amounted to a very overt push in the direction she wanted things to go. And refusing a Campbell would have taken more back bone than William possessed that the time. The Viscount may have hated having to lower himself to the parvenu, but, having allowed it, being refused by one would have been an even greater insult, methinks.

Eleanor is a sweetheart but she is also a child of privilege, more so than William. I am pulling for a good ending for her, definitely.

Ah, that's what you meant by come onto him, that's true, that was quite the come on, especially in that age; makes me wonder what exactly she whispered to him, and how she would have euphemized the confession with polite speech.

*Thinks hard* I've got to get this right now: At that point, Will acknowledges her feelings for him. Eleanor tells Monica that she fell in love with him on her own, confessed to him first, and though she concedes Will was shocked, thinks/hopes that he will return the affection eventually and propose to her. Monica is unjustifiably pissed at Will because Eleanor loves him and tells him so, which she believes should be the other way around. In conclusion: Eleanor's overly optimistic estimation leads to a misunderstanding on Monica's part, followed by the confrontation and marriage proposal. That's about how it happened; Eleanor's youth, innocence, and inexperience in the rituals of courtship leads her to confess her feelings, instigating a series of unfortunate events.

*Thinks harder* Well, I ended up reviewing volume four for ten minutes, studying everyone's expressions at certain crucial moments and making conjectures about their thoughts. Earlier on, Will, feeling the strain of being the Jones family man and missing Emma sorely, sheds tears of frustration. The next morning, in a symbolic scene, Collin's willingness to wait for him (to see his drawings) seems to give him the encouragement he needs to carry on, even move on.

I overlooked this as well; at the opera, Will pays a great deal of attention to Eleanor's expression to the comedy, Barber of Seville. At a sad scene, he frowns at the look at her face, at a happy scene, his demeanour is noticeably lightened at her excitement. This may be the very first instance in which William Jones, who has just lost the love of his life, starts to pay more personal attention to Eleanor, who has up until now been a frequent but normal acquaintance. At this point in the story, Will has no way of tracking Emma, who gave him no way to follow her, and it is not unrealistic to think that he has resigned himself to society's expectations and a life without her. Here along comes Eleanor, a nice girl and friend to his family and siblings, whom he has dined and danced with. It is far too soon in his mourning for him to possibly consider finding another to fill the void Emma left, but given more time, Eleanor would have come to his attention in the natural course of things.

Of course, Eleanor doesn't give him time, and shocks the devil out of him with her confession. Then comes Monica, whose rant puts the nail in the coffin, and Will, mourning, weary of business and socialing, and generally tired of the shit that's been happening in his life, decides "F**k it." And proposes to Eleanor, whom he has had time to think over and reevaluate in light of her confession to him. Deciding that since this is the life he is destined to lead, Eleanor would make as good a partner as any, William proposes sincerely. When she replies in the affirmative, there's a moment of sadness/regret (for Emma and himself, no doubt) on his face, but after he kisses her hand, his face is raised in light, and it seems that he's committed himself to making Eleanor, whom he is just getting to know (all good things), happy, even if he does not love her yet. His resolution is reflected in how Hakim's sarcastic comments have no visible effect on him.

At the engagement reception, both Eleanor and Will show that they're as surprised as the guests at how quickly they ended up in this position, and still getting used to the idea. All things considered however, Will shows great composure and little sign of his displeasure with this arrangement (again, under the circumstances).

Then he and Emma see each other, and BAM, their resignations and grieving and the process of burying their feelings for each other is undone in an instant.

In conclusion, had they not met each other at the party, Emma and William would have moved on over time. William, good man and young that he is, would eventually get to know Eleanor and perhaps grow fond of her. Emma, without an immediate romantic interest to fill in the void and provide support, might take longer to recover, but she too would move on, and who knows what our favorite German Hans would have accomplished by then?

[Yogo_Pogo]

I've seen the discussion so far. It seems that some forgot about the fact that Will saw Emma leaving and was surely thinking that he will never see her again. At that time when an opportunity to marry for love was gone, it was for good.
Then Will was forced to go with reality and not his own wishes.

Even now pressure is high. One cannot always do things he/she wanted. The reality, for William, was marrying Eleanor, nothing else. Then Emma comes back. It's like life was giving him another chance for getting what he wanted. Life always does that. You want something, it does not give it to you. When it gives it to you, you are not able to get it anymore. Unless you decide to be selfish, cast all aside and get what you want. William decided to be selfish. The only problem left for him was facing the consequences.

The poor Eleanor in all that. She was like a toy. It seems like her happiness was nothing to everyone. She got a taste of what real life is all about. Even if Emma never was in the picture, since Eleanor is innocent and naive, the possibility of her experiencing pain would not have been necessarelly low. She would have fallen in love. William would have marry her. The only chance she'll have would be that Will fall for her too.

[kira-sama]

i agree with you Yogo_pogo that William thinks he wouldn't meet Emma anymore,
he kinda give up about Emma
and William meet again with Emma while he and Eleanor engagement party is fate "that was my opinion"

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Yogo_Pogo

I've seen the discussion so far. It seems that some forgot about the fact that Will saw Emma leaving and was surely thinking that he will never see her again. At that time when an opportunity to marry for love was gone, it was for good.
Then Will was forced to go with reality and not his own wishes.

Yes, that is true I think. That is what I mean when I say that for William, "it's all over." His proposal isn't as sincere as one may think, not because he has an evil motive in mind, but because he's pressured to move on as his reality dictates him to. Then, fate crashes at his door and he meets Emma again...

To be clear about it, yes, I do agree with William breaking the whole engagement off. It's cruel perhaps, (it is) but I also think there's more than a good enough reason to do so. Saying that it happens doesn't really make it any less harsh or unfair, but I think it's for the best in the long run. But like I said earlier, I can't really blame William for succumbing to the pressures of his life, and I yet do. I guess I just find his proposal understandable (as much as I am able to as a present day individual), and at the same time, distasteful and disappointing for both himself and the people around him.

[ChainLegacy]

I find it absurd to blame William for the situation with Eleanor. Everyone was forcing him into that, and even though, yes, he could have simply resisted, he is supposed to be a human and thus succumbed to the pressure. As everyone saw, he was pushed further and further towards the betrothal with Eleanor; had these outside influences from society and his family not been present, I'm fairly sure he would have stayed steadfast in dreaming of the one he truly loved. Eleanor is simply the victim of bad circumstances, or, if you really want someone to blame, her parents and William's father.

I also think this anime season is fantastic. Much better than the first, for me, and the best anime I've watched in a long time. I honestly don't understand why some people complain about it.

[xris]

Right Stuf have announced the license for both seasons of Emma at Anime Expo 2007. See AoD and ANN for more details.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I discover that Aurelia Jones (William's mother) is played by Shimamoto Sumi, an older seiyuu (52), who was the dashing and enigmatic Saint-Just in one of my favorite anime -- despite or because of the shoujo-ai and melodrama -- Oniisama-e (Brother, Dear Brother). She was also Kyoko in Maison Ikkoku.

I don't find myself blaming William, although he doesn't seem the strongest person. He tried to forget Emma, but Fate stepped in and he was overwhelmed by his feelings when he saw her again. His brother is certainly not happy with him, though.

[whispers]

Work has stopped. All Emma anime torrents have been deleted from our tracker. Hallelujah, we're done! Thank you all.

[xris]

Originally Posted by whispers

Work has stopped. All Emma anime torrents have been deleted from our tracker. Hallelujah, we're done! Thank you all.

Thank you for the work you had done to bring us Emma. I'm looking forward to the boxsets, I understand they will be sub only, which may be just as well since I don't think (IMO) American accents would suit the time and place of Victorian England

[Slice of Life]

*sigh* First Doctor Who S3 ends and now this. This day has seen many a brave series die. Thanks for the excellent subbing, iichan.

[isolatedincidence]

Well, I am sad to see the subbing come to an end, especially with only two episodes left in the season... But I am glad to hear the releases will be sub-only, in a way. I agree that American, or worse, fake British, accents would not do the series the justice it deserves.

They better get to releasing them quick though... I cannot stand to be stuck on episode ten of season two forever...

*checks website*

2012?! Well crap...

[whispers]

The release date is 12-12-12, which is most probably a placeholder date that someone overlooked, not a real date.